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Tahrif Challenge!

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see the points you made:

1.) you said the hadiths that say Ibn Masood did not include the 2 surahs are weak

2.) you said again that Ibn Masood did not include the surahs because of what he learnt from the Prophet

so did he or did he not remove those surahs?you're contradicting yourself with some patchy argument.in the one hand you say the hadith is weak and on the other hand you say the event happened.

3.) you said the Prophet said later that they are part of the Quran which Ibn Masood didnt know.

this is exactly where the issue lies and you have refused to answer.why didnt the Prophet include them initially as revelation? and if Ibn Masood was not aware,then Ibn Masood got something wrong with his Quran.so how is that not tahreef?

and for a millionth time,Shia do not believe in tahreef as an aqeedah.it occurs as individual belief just as it does with sunnis.shia overwhelmingly defend the authenticity of the Quran and believe that it has not suffered any tahreef.

lol , its apparent that you dont have comprehension understanding skills... anyways someone good in it will surely understand inshallah..

however just for a sake of argument lets suppose that he didnt even recite because he didnt consider those to be part of kalam Allah..(its just an assumption actual answer is in point 2)

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Would a shia explain verse 3:7 to me? Or summarize Tabatabai's explanation of this verse in Tafseer-e-Meezan

åõæó ÇáøóÐöíó ÃóäÒóáó Úóáóíúßó ÇáúßöÊóÇÈó ãöäúåõ ÂíóÇÊñ ãøõÍúßóãóÇÊñ åõäøó Ãõãøõ ÇáúßöÊóÇÈö æóÃõÎóÑõ ãõÊóÔóÇÈöåóÇÊñ ÝóÃóãøóÇ ÇáøóÐöíäó Ýí ÞõáõæÈöåöãú ÒóíúÛñ ÝóíóÊøóÈöÚõæäó ãóÇ ÊóÔóÇÈóåó ãöäúåõ ÇÈúÊöÛóÇÁ ÇáúÝöÊúäóÉö æóÇÈúÊöÛóÇÁ ÊóÃúæöíáöåö æóãóÇ íóÚúáóãõ ÊóÃúæöíáóåõ ÅöáÇøó Çááøåõ æóÇáÑøóÇÓöÎõæäó Ýöí ÇáúÚöáúãö íóÞõæáõæäó ÂãóäøóÇ Èöåö ßõáøñ ãøöäú ÚöäÏö ÑóÈøöäóÇ æóãóÇ íóÐøóßøóÑõ ÅöáÇøó ÃõæúáõæÇú ÇáÃáúÈóÇÈö
(3:7)

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well those links shows that the narration you produced is unacceptable .. (there were reasons mentioned there) one of them is that there are other narration from ibn abbas(ra) stating the verse in the same way as we do...

Simple denial will not work here, there should be specefic reason to reject the statement of Ibn Abbas under discussion. Existence of another tradition from Ibn abbas will not render the one under discussion void!

And the bottom line is that it is impossible to accuse a sahabi for believing in tahreef, because they learned quran from prophet(Saw).. and even if a sahabi disagrees with another sahabi on certain issue regarding quran then it will not be labelled as tahreef, because at end of the day both of them got quran learned quran from prophet(Saw) and both of them believed that they had the correct and appropriate kalam of Allah along with them.. and that there was no tahreef done in what they considered to be correct which is opposite to what shias believe.....

Stupid logic based on a concocted belief 'all sahaba are aadil'. !! A Sahabi is adamant not to accept the 'wordings' of Quranic verse used by another Sahaba and the former insists that it was revealed in that very wordings, amounts to Tahrif !! And that is the bottom line.

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Simple denial will not work here, there should be specefic reason to reject the statement of Ibn Abbas under discussion. Existence of another tradition from Ibn abbas will not render the one under discussion void!

lol so he believed in both contradictory narrations ,lol .. the narration you quoted is weak , if for sake of argument not weak then atleast shaadh..

Stupid logic based on a concocted belief 'all sahaba are aadil'. !! A Sahabi is adamant not to accept the 'wordings' of Quranic verse used by another Sahaba and the former insists that it was revealed in that very wordings, amounts to Tahrif !! And that is the bottom line.

lol, first understand what is tahrif.. and then after that you will neeed to use your brain..atleast once. to understand what i said..

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lol so he believed in both contradictory narrations ,lol .. the narration you quoted is weak , if for sake of argument not weak then atleast shaadh..

ll, the traditino is not weak :P

lol, first understand what is tahrif.. and then after that you will neeed to use your brain..atleast once. to understand what i said..

Dont worry, I kow Tahrif's definion, Oh I forgot, I need to accept your definition of Tahrif according to which 'marking a mistake' in Quran and suggestig the 'correct' word is not Tahrif :)

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lol , its apparent that you dont have comprehension understanding skills... anyways someone good in it will surely understand inshallah..

no problem.you can say that again and again and again.

but please if i dont have the skills to understand,you that have them should please go ahead and answer the questions put to you.you enlighten us since you can.dont just run away because i am an idiot.teach me if you can.

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Well i think I have given suffiicent info to show that what sahaba(ra) believed in no way can be labbeled as tahreef from a sane person and i proved it in a logical and simple manner.. and if someone still accuses them falsely just inorder to defend this madhab then he is just deceiving his ownself...

Thus I leave it with the audience to judge ... since we proved that what sahaba(ra) believed was i noway comparable to what shias believe ..

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“Verily, you solemnly wished that you possess a book which is sufficient, brings together the entire Islamic sciences of the knowledge of religion within it, wholly satisfies the needs of the student, acts as a reference for the seekers of guidance, and would be used by those who want to attain the knowledge of religion and practice upon it by deriving correct [şaĥīĥ] narrations of the truthful ones (as) and the upright and acted upon traditions from it—through which the compulsory duties of Allāh, the Powerful and Exalted, and the tradition of His Prophet (saws) can be fulfilled.

And you said: ‘If that happens, I can hope that (the book) would be a means through which Allāh will rectify our brothers and people of our religious community through his support and grace, and take them closer to their salvation.’”

Source:al-Kāfī, of Abū Ja`far al-Kulaynī (d. 329), volume 1, page 8 [Tehran]

Let’s see what his friends think of him.

ÇáãÝÓÑ ÇáßÈíÑ ãÍãÏ Èä ãÑÊÖì ÇáßÇÔÇäí ÇáãáÞÈ ÈÜ (ÇáÝíÖ ÇáßÇÔÇäí) :

ÞÇá : ” æÃãÇ ÇÚÊÞÇÏ ãÔÇíÎäÇ Ýí Ðáß ÝÇáÙÇåÑ ãä ËÞÉ ÇáÇÓáÇã ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ Çáßáíäí ØÇÈ ËÑÇå Ãäå ßÇä íÚÊÞÏ ÇáÊÍÑíÝ æÇáäÞÕÇä Ýí ÇáÞÑÂä áÃäå ßÇä Ñæì ÑæÇíÇÊ Ýí åÐÇ ÇáãÚäì Ýí ßÊÇÈå ÇáßÇÝí æáã íÊÚÑÖ ááÞÏÍ ÝíåÇ ãÚ Çäå ÐßÑ Ýí Ãæá ÇáßÊÇÈ Ãäå ßÇä íËÞ ÈãÇ ÑæÇå Ýíå

ÊÝÓíÑ ÇáÕÇÝí 1/52 ãäÔæÑÇÊ ÇáÇÚáãí – ÈíÑæÊ .

The Great Shiite Classical mufassir and Scholar Ibn al murtada al Kashani also known as al Faydh al Kashani said:

As for the belief of our scholars in that Matter (Distortion of the Quran) it’s apparent from thiqat al Islam The Scholar Muhammad Bin ya’aqoob al kulayni May Allah reward him That he used to believe in the Distortion of the Quran in terms of deletion, this is because He narrated Narrations which prove this and didn’t even criticize them although he narrated at the beginning of his book that he was confident in all that he narrated in it.

Source: Tafseer al Safi 1/52, Beirut.

ÃÈæ ÇáÍÓä ÇáÚÇãáí :

ÞÇá : ÇÚáã Ãä ÇáÐí íÙåÑ ãä ËÞÉ ÇáÇÓáÇã ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ Çáßáíäí ØÇÈ ËÑÇå Ãäå ßÇä íÚÊÞÏ ÇáÊÍÑíÝ æÇáäÞÕÇä Ýí ÇáÞÑÂä áÃäå Ñæì ÑæÇíÇÊ ßËíÑÉ Ýí åÐÇ ÇáãÚäì Ýí ßÊÇÈ ÇáßÜÜÜÇÝí ÇáÐí ÕÑÍ Ýí Ãæáå ÈÃäå ßÇä íËÞ ÝíãÇ ÑæÇå Ýíå æáã íÊÚÑÖ áÞÏÍ ÝíåÇ æáÇ ÐßÑ ãÚÇÑÖ áåÇ

ÇáãÞÏãÉ ÇáËÇäíÉ ÇáÝÕá ÇáÑÇÈÚ ÊÝÓíÑ ãÑÂÉ ÇáÇäæÇÑ æãÔßÇÉ ÇáÇÓÑÇÑ æØÈÚÊ ßãÞÏãå áÊÝÓíÑ ÇáÈÑåÇä ááÈÍÑÇäí .

The Big Scholar Abu al hassan al Amili said:

I Know that what’s apparent regarding Thikat al Islam Muhammad Bin Ya’aqoob al Kulayni May Allah reward him is That he believed in the distortion of the Quran and its deletion because he narrated so many Narrations to that effect in his book al Kafi in which he stated at the beginning ( of the book) that he trusts all that he narrates in it and he didn’t criticize those narrations nor did he oppose them.

Source: Second introduction from the 4th Fasl, Tafseer Mira’at al Anwar wa Mishkat al Asrar, and it was printed as an introduction for “Tafseer al Burhan” for the scholar al Bahrani.

ÇáäæÑí ÇáØÈÑÓí :

ÞÇá ÇáäæÑí Ýí ÇáãÞÏãÉ ÇáËÇáËÉ Ýí ÐßÑ ÃÞæÇá ÚáãÇÁ ÇáÔíÚÉ Ýí ÊÛííÑ ÇáÞÑÂä Õ 23 : ” ÇÚáã Ãä áåã Ýí Ðáß ÃÞæÇáÇð ãÔåæÑåÇ ÇËäÇä . ÇáÃæá : æÞæÚ ÇáÊÛííÑ æÇáäÞÕÇä Ýíå ¡ æåæ ãÐåÈ ÇáÔíÎ ÇáÌáíá Úáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã ÇáÞãí ÔíÎ Çáßáíäí Ýí ÊÝÓíÑå ÕÑÍ Ýí Ãæáå æãáà ßÊÇÈå ãä ÃÎÈÇÑå ãÚ ÇáÊÒÇãå Ýí Ãæáå ÈÃä áÇ íÐßÑ Ýíå ÅáÇ Úä ãÔÇíÎå æËÞÇÊå æãÐåÈ ÊáãíÐå ËÞÉ ÇáÅÓáÇã Çáßáíäí ÑÍãå Çááå Úáì äÓÈå Åáíå ÌãÇÚÉ áäÞáå ÇáÃÎÈÇÑ ÇáßËíÑÉ ÇáÕÑíÍÉ Ýí åÐÇ ÇáãÚäì Ýí ßÊÇÈ ÇáÍÌÉ ÎÕæÕÇð Ýí ÈÇÈ ÇáäßÊ æÇáäÊÝ ãä ÇáÊäÒíá æÝí ÇáÑæÖÉ ãä ÛíÑ ÊÚÑÖ áÑÏåÇ Ãæ ÊÃæíáåÇ

ÝÕá ÇáÎØÇÈ Ýí ÇËÈÇÊ ÊÍÑíÝ ßÊÇÈ ÑÈ ÇáÇÑÈÇÈ Õ 23

Giant scholar Al Noori al Tabrasi said:

In the third introduction in which he states the Sayings of Shia scholars about the Distortion of the Quran Page 23: I Know that they have two popular sayings. The first: That Corruption did in fact take place in form of change and of deletion, and that is the Madhab of the Respected Sheikh Ali bin Ibrahim al Qummi, Kulayni’s Scholar who in his Tafseer says this in the introduction and fills his book with such sayings and he only mentioned these sayings from his Own Scholars (teachers) and his trustworthy sources, also it is the Madhab of his Student thiqat al islam al Kulayni May Allah have mercy on his soul in which he transmitted many clear Sarih Sayings which prove this (Tahreef) and especially in his “Kitab’ul Hujjah” in the chapter ‘Al Nakt wal Natf min al Tanzeel’ and in His “al Rawdah” without criticizing any of them or refuting them.

Source: Fasl al Khitab fi Ithbat Tahreef Kitab rabb al arbab Page 23, tehran.

ÂíÉ Çááå ÇáÓíÏ Úáì ÇáÝÇäí ÇáÇÕÝåÇäí :

æÞÏ ÐßÑ Çáßáíäí ãä ÇáÚáãÇÁ ÇáÐíä ÞÇáæÇ ÈÃä ÇáÞÑÂä ãÍÑÝ

ÂÑÇÁ Íæá ÇáÞÑÂä – ÏÇÑ ÇáåÇÏí – ÈíÑæÊ Õ 188

grand Ayatullah Sayyed Ali al Fani al Isfahani:

“And Kulayni is mentioned amongst those scholars who Say that the Quran is Corrupt“

Source: Ara’a Hawl al Quran – Darul Hadee – Beirut Page 188.

Below is a self-charging document showing that rijal expert grand ayatullah al-Kho’ei believes the Qur’an to be altered and messed with by contributing such a belief to Ahlul-Bayt.

The following evidence is from his book Al-Bayaan fi tafseer al-Qur’an, published by Al-’Alami Foundation, Beirut, Lebanon, 3rd ed. 1974, p. 226

ÇáÔÈåÉ ÇáËÇáËÉ : Ãä ÇáÑæÇíÇÊ ÇáãÊæÇÊÑÉ Úä Ãåá ÇáÈíÊ – Ú – ÞÏ ÏáÊ Úáì ÊÍÑíÝ ÇáÞÑÂä ÝáÇ ÈÏ ãä ÇáÞæá Èå : æÇáÌæÇÈ : Ãä åÐå ÇáÑæÇíÇÊ áÇ ÏáÇáÉ ÝíåÇ Úáì æÞæÚ ÇáÊÍÑíÝ Ýí ÇáÞÑÂä ÈÇáãÚäì ÇáãÊäÇÒÚ Ýíå ¡ æÊæÖíÍ Ðáß : Ãä ßËíÑÇ ãä ÇáÑæÇíÇÊ ¡ æÅä ßÇäÊ ÖÚíÝÉ ÇáÓäÏ ¡ ÝÅä ÌãáÉ ãäåÇ äÞáÊ ãä ßÊÇÈ ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ ÇáÓíÇÑí ¡ ÇáÐí ÇÊÝÞ ÚáãÇÁ ÇáÑÌÇá Úáì ÝÓÇÏ ãÐåÈå ¡ æÃäå íÞæá ÈÇáÊäÇÓÎ ¡ æãä Úáí Èä ÃÍãÏ ÇáßæÝí ÇáÐí ÐßÑ ÚáãÇÁ ÇáÑÌÇá Ãäå ßÐÇÈ ¡ æÃäå ÝÇÓÏ ÇáãÐåÈ ÅáÇ Ãä ßËÑÉ ÇáÑæÇíÇÊ ÊæÑË ÇáÞØÚ ÈÕÏæÑ ÈÚÖåÇ Úä ÇáãÚÕæãíä Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã æáÇ ÃÞá ãä ÇáÇØãÆäÇä ÈÐáß ¡ æÝíåÇ ãÇ Ñæí ÈØÑíÞ ãÚÊÈÑ ÝáÇ ÍÇÌÉ ÈäÇ Åáì ÇáÊßáã Ýí ÓäÏ ßá ÑæÇíÉ ÈÎÕæÕåÇ

Which says:

Shubha 3:

The mutawatir narrations from Ahlul-Bayt [as] indicate that tahreef has took place in the Qur’an, and therefore it must be adopted.

Answer:

There is no indication in these narrations pointing to the fact of tahreef as in the disputed meaning of the word. To explain that: a great number of these narrations, though they are of weak isnad, a good number of them were copied from the book Ahmad b. Muhammad al-Sayyari, whom the scientists of Rijal have a consensus on the invalidity of his mazhab, and the fact he believes in the incarnation, as well as from Ali b. Muhammad al-Kufi who has been charged by the scientists of Rijal to be a liar and pointed to his invalid mazhab. However, the multitude of these narrations force us to believe that some of them have definately been issued by the infallibles [as], that is the least we can be sure of, and some of them have been narrated with a considerable Isnad, and therefore there is no need to examin each and every Isnad of them.

Source: http://www.najaf.org/arabic/book/24/a226.htm

Now below I have managed to find few sayings of Shia elders

Source

Book Title: Masa'il as-Sarawiyya

Author: ash-Shaykh al-Mufid

Publisher: Dar al-Mufid in Lebanon, Beirut [1993]

Editor: Sa'ib `Abd al-Humayd

Page(s): 78-81

“All of what is between the two covers of the Quran is the Speech of Allah Ta'ala and His revelation; it does not contain any sayings of human beings, and it is most of what has been revealed, and the rest of what Allah Ta'ala has revealed as Quran is bestowed with (Al-Qaem) the Preserver of Shariah and Custodian of Rulings with none of it being omitted, even though the one who has compiled what is between the two covers as present today (Uthman) did not include this in the compilation due to reasons such as: his shortcomings in knowing some (of it), what he had doubts about, and some which he included and others he meant to exclude, while Amir al-Mu'mineen (Ali) compiled the revealed Quran from beginning to end, and collated it as it is supposed to be collated: so he put the Makki (verses) before Madani, and abrogated verses before those abrogating them, and put all of it as it is required to be put, and for this reason (Imam) Jafar ibn Muhammad as-Saddiq said: "By Allah if the Quran was read as it was revealed you would have found our names as those before us were named"...

Authentic Hadiths have passed from our Imams (A.S.) that they have ordered (us) to read what is between the two covers, and that we do not resort to any other, be it in addition or subtraction until the Qaem emerges and he would read to people the Quran as Allah Ta'ala revealed it and as collected by Amir al-Mu'mineen (Ali) and they forbade us from reading what is mentioned in Hadith of words that are in excess of what is established in the Mushaf because it did not come through Mutawatir (narrations), but through individual (narrations), and a person can commit mistakes in conveying it, and whenever a person reads what is contrary to what is in the two covers he will make himself prone to (the attacks) of those who differ with us (i.e. Sunnis), and to the mighty (Sunni rulers) and thus he would expose himself to perishing. Thus, they (A.S.) prevented us from reading the Quran contrary to what is mentioned between the two covers.”

Source

Book Title: Kitab al-Irshad (The Book of Guidance)

Author: ash-Shaykh al-Mufid

Publisher: Balagha Books in conjunction with The Muhammadi Trust [1981]

Translated by: I.K.A. Howard

Page: 553

Shaykh al-Mufid writes:

(Imam al-Baqir) said: When the Qai'm from the family of Muhammad, may Allah bless him and his family, arises, he will set up encampments and he will teach the people the Quran as it was revealed by Allah, the Mighty and the High. The greatest difficulty will be for those who have learnt it as it is today, because it differs from its original composition.

Edited by patelfiroz6

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SEE BELOW JUST A VERY FEW SHIA SOURCES AND SCHOLARS DEFEND AND PROPAGATE THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE QURAN AND ITS TOTAL PROTECTION FROM ANY ALTERATION:

1.)Authenticity of the Quran by Shaikh Muslim Bhanji:

http://www.al-islam.org/authen_of_the_quran/

2.)The Qur'an:Its Protection from Alteration by Sayyid Sa'eed Akhtar Rizvi:

http://www.al-islam.org/protection/

3.)The Qur'an in Islam by Sayyid Muhammad Husayn Tabataba'i:

http://www.al-islam.org/quraninislam/index.htm

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Salaam,

Coming to the forum after a long time, thus missed out this live action on the topic of tahreef. But I don't get one thing: why do sunnis always bring this issue up? I'm a sunni myself, and there has been no problem in comprehending a simple verse in the Quran in which Allah (swt) has taken it upto Himself to protect the Quran. So either our sunni brethren do not understand the verse in letter and spirit OR weak in faith to really accept the Quran as Quran.

I had to reiterate this point since it is sad and extremely disappointing to see sunni brothers heap accusation on shia brothers.

Also, as a layman with limited knowledge on the subject, I couldn't fathom the argument of protection of the 7 readings (as some of the sunni brothers asserted). If I take a bunch of 7 kids out on a walk and come home with one, the rest 6 killed in a road accident, how can I say that I've protected them on the basis of bringing home just one alive? :unsure:

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