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Tahrif Challenge!

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PLEASE QALANDAR ALSO ANSWER THE SECOND PART OF THE POST.I EDITED IT AND POSTED A 2ND QUESTION TO IT FROM THE OTHER WAY ROUND.

AS FOR YOUR REQUEST FOR IJMA TAKE THIS AS A BASIC AND ONLY ONE EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT MY SAYING:

In the section "The Belief Concerning The Extent (Mablagh) Of The Qur'an" Abu Ja`far, the well-known Shi'ite theologian of 4th century of hijra says:

Says the Shaykh Abu Ja`far Al-Tusi: Our belief is that the Qur'an, which Allah revealed to his Prophet Muhammad is (the same as) the one between the two boards (daffatayn). And it is that which is in the hands of the people, and is not greater extent than that. The number of suras as generally accepted is one hundred and fourteen.

And again:

And he who asserts that we say it is greater in extent than this (the present text) is a liar.

before going any further, i have two questions here.

1. Whats the Shia Imami view of the person who says that tahreef has been done to the Quran?

2. Are their any extra Quranic ( other thans hadith books) books in which the shia believe? What if a person claims to have such a book which is not Quran but is from Allah?

1.) liars!!!

2.) it is common sense that while the Quran is the most authoritative text and the final revelation for us,we also believe in Qudsi hadith like sunnis also have them.sunnis also believe those are the words of Allah.therefore it makes no difference if any text out of the Quran exist which is believed to also be revelation from Allah.what is your point?

Edited by mehdi soldier

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PLEASE QALANDAR ALSO ANSWER THE SECOND PART OF THE POST.I EDITED IT AND POSTED A 2ND QUESTION TO IT FROM THE OTHER WAY ROUND.

AS FOR YOUR REQUEST FOR IJMA TAKE THIS AS A BASIC AND ONLY ONE EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT MY SAYING:

In the section "The Belief Concerning The Extent (Mablagh) Of The Qur'an" Abu Ja`far, the well-known Shi'ite theologian of 4th century of hijra says:

Says the Shaykh Abu Ja`far Al-Tusi: Our belief is that the Qur'an, which Allah revealed to his Prophet Muhammad is (the same as) the one between the two boards (daffatayn). And it is that which is in the hands of the people, and is not greater extent than that. The number of suras as generally accepted is one hundred and fourteen.

And again:

And he who asserts that we say it is greater in extent than this (the present text) is a liar.

brother , these are the words of Tusi, it cant be taken as Ijmaa,for Ijmaa u have to present the Qol of a Mujthahid who says that the scholars have been unanimous on the issue of the authenticity of Quran. I think whoever goes against Ijmaa' is kafir let alone going against the Nas of Quran so would u answer these two question in ur own words or any fatwa?

before going any further, i have two questions here.

1. Whats the Shia Imami view of the person who says that tahreef has been done to the Quran?

2. Are their any extra Quranic ( other thans hadith books) books in which the shia believe? What if a person claims to have such a book which is not Quran but is from Allah?

1.) liars!!!

2.) it is common sense that while the Quran is the most authoritative text and the final revelation for us,we also believe in Qudsi hadith like sunnis also have them.sunnis also believe those are the words of Allah.therefore it makes no difference if any text out of the Quran exist which is believed to also be revelation from Allah.what is your point?

1.so whoever says that the present Quran is not complete is just a liar and not a kafir?

2.My point was the if peson A claims that Allah had revealed certain other books besides Quran but they were not made public and were kept secret. What will u say about person A?

Edited by qalandar_1

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brother , these are the words of Tusi, it cant be taken as Ijmaa,for Ijmaa u have to present the Qol of a Mujthahid who says that the scholars have been unanimous on the issue of the authenticity of Quran. I think whoever goes against Ijmaa' is kafir let alone going against the Nas of Quran so would u answer these two question in ur own words or any fatwa?

what is the meaning of "Qol"?do you mean "qawl" as in "word" or "kul' as in "all"?

if you want to do that,i can simply gather you the many rulings and beliefs of all our maraji and all the scholars of past and you are free to examine them.the majority will tell you that the Quran is not altered.that is ijma.the few that differ are on their own and those who follow them.if Sheikh at-Tusi is speaking with "we",then why do you still think he is not talking on behalf of the remaining he knows of or the mainstream shia belief?

as far as we are concerned,no one scholar has the right to speak on behalf of all on his own alone.if you want to make your point,bring us an authentic hadith where any of the 12 Imams proclaimed tahreef.those ones do represent us in word and deed.

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what is the meaning of "Qol"?do you mean "qawl" as in "word" or "kul' as in "all"?

if you want to do that,i can simply gather you the many rulings and beliefs of all our maraji and all the scholars of past and you are free to examine them.the majority will tell you that the Quran is not altered.that is ijma.the few that differ are on their own and those who follow them.if Sheikh at-Tusi is speaking with "we",then why do you still think he is not talking on behalf of the remaining he knows of or the mainstream shia belief?

as far as we are concerned,no one scholar has the right to speak on behalf of all on his own alone.if you want to make your point,bring us an authentic hadith where any of the 12 Imams proclaimed tahreef.those ones do represent us in word and deed.

Qol =word , talk in arabic

I would present the evidence of tehreef and a shia scholar claiming that the hadiths abt Tehreef in shia books are Muthawathir. I would also present the evidence of shia belief in some extra-Quranic revelations as the thread moves on and the OP responds to my answer about Abdullah Ibn masood Ra

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1.so whoever says that the present Quran is not complete is just a liar and not a kafir?

2.My point was the if peson A claims that Allah had revealed certain other books besides Quran but they were not made public and were kept secret. What will u say about person A?

i am not a scholar to pass takfir on anyone.if personally i am to rule,that person is a kaffir.that is my opinion but i am not qualified.maybe someone can post a fatwa of a shia scholar that has approved takfir on those who say the Quran is not authentic.i have told you that the majority of our scholars stand against tahreef and they strongly oppose and expose anyone who claim tahreef.that is to the best of my knowledge.

as for your second question,anyone can claim anything.tell us who claimed what.dont tell me "anyone".anyone can say anything when his stomach is full!!!

as for those alleged books i have not seen them nor have i heard of them.i dont know their relation to the Quran and what is contained in them.until i am educated on that,i dont know them.i dont even know what books you are talking about seriously!

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P.S. tell me if u agree with the fatwa of Ayathullah wal Uzza Mohammad Sadiq Ruhani?

Ayatullat wal-Uzza Mohammad Sadiq Ruhani said about people who believe in tahreef:

من یقول بالتحریف بالزیادة و النقصان لا یجوز رمیه بالکفر
.

"It's not permitted to accuse in disbelief person who would say that there is addition and deficiency (in Quran)"
.

CODEhttp://www.imamrohani.com/fatwa-ar/viewtopic.php?t=3546

i am not a scholar to pass takfir on anyone.if personally i am to rule,that person is a kaffir.that is my opinion but i am not qualified.

as for those alleged books i have not seen them nor have i heard of them.i dont know their relation to the Quran and what is contained in them.until i am educated on that,i dont know them.i dont even know what books you are talking about seriously!

Thanks for a clear answer. plz stick to this thread and i shall present the evidence of those books tomorrow along with the views of famous shia scholars on Tehreef fil Quran. (p.s , I was a great admirer of the political ideology of Musa Al-sadr)(salam)

Edited by qalandar_1

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Qol =word , talk in arabic

I would present the evidence of tehreef and a shia scholar claiming that the hadiths abt Tehreef in shia books are Muthawathir. I would also present the evidence of shia belief in some extra-Quranic revelations as the thread moves on and the OP responds to my answer about Abdullah Ibn masood Ra

i do speak arabic to some extent and i read too."qol" means "say".as in "qol huwwalahu ahad".

you can present a scholar's opinion from here or there.that will not change my mind on the Quran nor will it prove his point or prove that any change have happened.i reject that.the majority of our scholars reject that and stand against that.you cant tell me no sunni scholar have ever claimed tahreef.its not possible.a shia can possibly also bring you a sunni scholar's opinion and that takes us to square one!!!

i already gave you the words of Sheikg Tusi that we believe that there is nothing more of the Quran left aside.so it would be interesting to see where you get these so called shia evidence on extra-Quranic revelations.if you get them from our hadiths books,you have already being told that we dont deny those hadiths are present.nontheless we also dont accept those hadith.Ayatollah al-Khoei have rejected any claim of tahreef or even abrogation in the Quran.on the same idea,someone has presented hadith from sunni books claiming that a portion of the Quran was left out.what do you say to that?

P.S. tell me if u agree with the fatwa of Ayathullah wal Uzza Mohammad Sadiq Ruhani?

Ayatullat wal-Uzza Mohammad Sadiq Ruhani said about people who believe in tahreef:

ãä یÞæá ÈÇáÊÍÑیÝ ÈÇáÒیÇÏÉ æ ÇáäÞÕÇä áÇ یÌæÒ Ñãیå ÈÇá˜ÝÑ
.

"It's not permitted to accuse in disbelief person who would say that there is addition and deficiency (in Quran)"
.

CODEhttp://www.imamrohani.com/fatwa-ar/viewtopic.php?t=3546

Thanks for a clear answer. plz stick to this thread and i shall present the evidence of those books tomorrow along with the views of famous shia scholars on Tehreef fil Quran.(salam)

i dont even know who Ayatollah Ruhani is because i dont do taqlid of him.

secondly the Ayatullah sees it from the point that what makes a muslim is the shahadatain and as maybe other beliefs like resurrection and reward in the hereafter.the belief in the Quran itself being distorted is not something that can make someone an outright kaffir.that could be his opinion.

as for me personally,i believe anyone who claims tahreef of the Quran should be ready to show us what verses were removed or what was added.if anyone cannot tell us that,then his or her belief is plain stupidity and nonsense.that is either a lie,ignorance or kufr.

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Thanks for a clear answer. plz stick to this thread and i shall present the evidence of those books tomorrow along with the views of famous shia scholars on Tehreef fil Quran. (p.s , I was a great admirer of the political ideology of Musa Al-sadr)(salam)

If you are referring to the Mushaf of Fatimah (as) or the Kitab of 'Ali (as),or even al-Jafr, then there are numerous posts elucidating the nature of these books, so you aren't presenting any new evidence, brother. They are not revelations of the qur'anic type, so plz don't waste your time attempting to "expose" them. Our Imams (as) have claimed to possess them, so do you intend to suggest that they are kuffar for making this claim?

Akh, your akhlaaq is good, but your literalist anthropomorphic views are far more deserving of scrutiny than the Mushaf of Fatimah (as), as is your reliance on a kadhdhab rawi like Abu Hurayra who is primarily responsible for introducing the mythical Isra'iliyyat into Islamic hadith literature. Do you seriously believe a rock stole Musa's (as) clothes and that he punched a malak in the eye? Do you believe Allah (swt) descends to the 1st heaven and calls out to His servants, and that he has hands, legs, feet, and teeth (amongst other bodily appendages)?

One who holds these heretical views is far more deserving of having the charge of kufr levelled at them than a misguided individual who believes in tahrif of the Qur'an ...

Edited by Abdul Qaim

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well inshallah ill give a try to the first one.. but i wont be posting the refutation here but on another forum... since i want to use the similar tone you used ..

And some day take time to refute my articles too , since i too refuted some articles(eg categorization of ahlebayt by guided) of your website in my blog though i didnt mentioned that it was a refutation to your arctile ... :)

When I refute people, I mention it and their names. So, when you refute my articles, please always mention "Guided" or "Guided al-Rafidi" :angel: . Besides, you may notify me of your refutations at slaveofali@yahoo.com.

Inshallah, you will always get my counter-rebuttals.

The OP has tried to use the logic " why do you blame us for this? You believe in it as well", like if a person is cautioned about his deviant beliefs and he in turn says " what if i hold such a belief,u have the same belief as well". Its an effort like "two wrongs never make a right". From the intentions and mindset of the OP,its now well established that he believes in Tehreef e Quran and is trying to say that what if i believe in it? you believe in it as well so its like shooting oneself in his foot. I would provide some counter arguments for his claims.

Here is a shia fatwa from Ayatullat wal-Uzza Mohammad Sadiq Ruhani about the people who believe in tehreef fil Quran.

من یقول بالتحریف بالزیادة و النقصان لا یجوز رمیه بالکفر.

"It's not permitted to accuse in disbelief person who would say that there is addition and deficiency (in Quran)".

so u cant accuse Abdullah Ibn masood Ra of infedility (maazAllah) anyways.

The first thing is that it was the Ijma of the sahaba that the copy of Quran which was documented in the time of Hadrat Uthman Ra is perfect and its the same Quran which was revealed on Prophet Mohamad PBUH. It was the Ijmaa' of the sahaba that Mashaf e Usmani is the exact form of Quran (word to word,letter to letter) as it was revealed on Prophet Mohamad PBUH. The arguments of the OP can be straight away rejected on the basis of Ijma which is an Idilaa for us.Even if we accept that Abdullah Ibn Masood Ra went against the Ijmaa' (which he did not at all),his views will become khabar e wahid and will be rejected on the basis of sticking to the Ijmaa'.

Don't put words into my mouth. I NEVER said I believe in Tahrif. I also NEVER agree that we Shiites do. If you re-read my articles, my position is very clear. There is NO Tahrif of the Qur'an. THE SHIITE HADITHS ON THE MATTER ARE ALL WEAK FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF MATN.

But then, I do not consider anyone who believes in Tahrif to be an infidel. Rather, I hold that he is only mistaken in his views.

MY only point is that one of our Adila e deen ( basics to extract the orders of religion) is Ijmaa' ie consensus. So his argument of the first thread which he has been pasted can easily be refuted by saying that the even if we accept that Abdullah Ibn masood Ra held such views then those views can be taken as his personal opinion.After Mashaf e othman Ra, there has been a complete consensus in-between the muslims that Quran is complete,perfect and free of any distortions.However, the shia scholars have been claiming tehreef fil Quran after that even. Molvi Mushtaq hussain is the latest example of the 20th century.

By the way, what would u say about a person who claims that "pakistan" has been mentioned in the original Quran?

MR. QALANDAR1, PLEASE STATE YOUR OPINION OF ANYONE WHO BELIEVES IN TAHRIF!

ALSO, PLEASE STATE WHETHER OR NOT IBN MAS'UD DID BELIEVE IN TAHRIF ON ACCOUNT OF HIS VIEWS.

LASTLY, PLEASE STATE WHETHER OR NOT IBN ABBAS BELIEVED IN TAHRIF ON ACCOUNT OF HIS VIEWS.

This is all I asked from you, NOT the IRRELEVANCIES you have posted.

You know why I am bringing this up? If you agree that Ibn Mas'ud and Ibn Abbas believed in Tahrif, then why do you wail about our "alleged" Tahrif all the time?

Edited by Saved

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Ibn Abbas' Tahrif Beliefs: A Serious Challenge to Efendi al-Nasibi!!!

There are others on that website. But the above should be enough for my purpose. I also have other Tahrif articles coming up insha Allah against Efendi.

So far, the Nasibi has been helpless.

I now CHALLENGE ibn asakir, tees maar khan and qalandar1 to help Efendi out by refuting those articles here!

But before you do that, please first state your opinion of whoever believes in Tahrif.

You never know what is gonna come next.

Thanks.

As it is said:

هناك فرق بين من اعترف بالتحريف ولا يعترف بالحروف التي نزل بها القران ؟؟

لذلك كيف تبقون على هذا الدين اذا القران محرف ؟

اذا علمائك جهله لا يفهمون في القران ولا في القراءات السبع فما ذنبنا فاكثر اسباب قولهم بالتحريف لعدم وجود ايه واحده تدل على امامتكم العجيبه ؟؟؟ لذلك قالوا بالتحريف

You are not aware of 7 readings then how can you challange anyone?

This hadith of Ibn abbas (ra) is about different 7 readings.

& i prefer you will find your answers on http://www.dd-sunnah.net/forum/ , search there.

Edited by ibn.askari

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As it is said:

åäÇß ÝÑÞ Èíä ãä ÇÚÊÑÝ ÈÇáÊÍÑíÝ æáÇ íÚÊÑÝ ÈÇáÍÑæÝ ÇáÊí äÒá ÈåÇ ÇáÞÑÇä ¿¿

áÐáß ßíÝ ÊÈÞæä Úáì åÐÇ ÇáÏíä ÇÐÇ ÇáÞÑÇä ãÍÑÝ ¿

ÇÐÇ ÚáãÇÆß Ìåáå áÇ íÝåãæä Ýí ÇáÞÑÇä æáÇ Ýí ÇáÞÑÇÁÇÊ ÇáÓÈÚ ÝãÇ ÐäÈäÇ ÝÇßËÑ ÇÓÈÇÈ Þæáåã ÈÇáÊÍÑíÝ áÚÏã æÌæÏ Çíå æÇÍÏå ÊÏá Úáì ÇãÇãÊßã ÇáÚÌíÈå ¿¿¿ áÐáß ÞÇáæÇ ÈÇáÊÍÑíÝ

You are not aware of 7 readings then how can you challange anyone?

This hadith of Ibn abbas (ra) is about different 7 readings.

& i prefer you will find your answers on http://www.dd-sunnah.net/forum/ , search there.

You are a highly talented comedian bro! Please take a career in that field!

Well, you have created more problems for yourself!

Ibn Abbas called that part of the verse (as we have it today) a SCRIBAL ERROR! What has that got to do with any seven ahruf? You are apparently dodging my challenge.

OK, do you think Ibn Abbas was right to have called it a scribal error?

Secondly, you guys claim that the Qur'an was revealed in seven ahruf. Fine! This tells us that what was called "the Qur'an" or "al-Dhikr" during the Prophet's lifetime were these seven ahruf TOGETHER. Allah promised to protect the Qur'an - meaning, to protect the seven ahruf.

The Qur'an, as we have it today, contains only ONE of these seven ahruf. Could you please kindly direct me to where the remaining SIX are?

Or, have they been lost?

Has Allah's promise failed according to you guys?

Their objections, that the reports are weak, have already been answered in those same articles you are purportedly answering! Please re-read them.

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Nobody from Shia and Sunni sects can deny that their venerated Imams and Muhaddiths recorded bundles of reports and verdicts about the distortion of Qur’an .

They were the enemies of Islam , disguised under the beard and turban .

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You are a highly talented comedian bro! Please take a career in that field!

Well, you have created more problems for yourself!

Ibn Abbas called that part of the verse (as we have it today) a SCRIBAL ERROR! What has that got to do with any seven ahruf? You are apparently dodging my challenge.

Now top class jokers claiming sunni science of quran better than sunni's.

OK, do you think Ibn Abbas was right to have called it a scribal error?

because he was not infallible.

Secondly, you guys claim that the Qur'an was revealed in seven ahruf. Fine! This tells us that what was called "the Qur'an" or "al-Dhikr" during the Prophet's lifetime were these seven ahruf TOGETHER. Allah promised to protect the Qur'an - meaning, to protect the seven ahruf.

The Qur'an, as we have it today, contains only ONE of these seven ahruf. Could you please kindly direct me to where the remaining SIX are?

Or, have they been lost?

Has Allah's promise failed according to you guys?

not at all the quran is preserved,. quran is said to be lost when all ahruf are gone like bible's original codes etc.

still we have original words of Allah.

& this can be easily understandably by layman also.

Their objections, that the reports are weak, have already been answered in those same articles you are purportedly answering! Please re-read them.

heck.

thiqa+thiqa+thiqa+---- can't make hadith sahih in sunni hadith science.

better learn some basics.

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æÞÇá ÛíÑ æÇÍÏ ãä ÇáÓáÝ Ýí Þæáå " ÃÝáã ííÃÓ ÇáÐíä ÂãäæÇ " ÃÝáã íÚáã ÇáÐíä ÂãäæÇ æÞÑà ÂÎÑæä ÃÝáã íÊÈíä ÇáÐíä ÂãäæÇ Ãä áæ íÔÇÁ Çááå áåÏì ÇáäÇÓ

ÌãíÚÇ æÞÇá ÃÈæ ÇáÚÇáíÉ : ÞÏ íÆÓ ÇáÐíä ÂãäæÇ Ãä íåÏæÇ æáæ íÔÇÁ Çááå áåÏì ÇáäÇÓ ÌãíÚÇ

Tafseer Ibn Kuthayr, Volume 2, Page 534

Ibn Askari, do you not find such ever so slightly problematic?

Even if we accept the Ahruf argument, does it not render Uthman ibn Affan someone who thought he had better insight than Allah (SWT) himself, due to the fact that Allah (SWT) revealed the 7 ahruf and Uthman reduced them to one. Note I'm not being rude or polemical, so I'd like a serious well-thought out answer to these 2 questions.

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