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goharjanjua

Kalma E Tauheed

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(bismillah)

(salam)

i went to some SHIA friends of mine and ask them about thier belief of Hazrat Ali (ra) being the only rightly guided khalifah of the four caliphs.

and they say that we do what ALI (ra) did. Because who would know islam more than Ali (ra) , after the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) .

i ask all Shia's out there, did the prophet (pbuh) and/or Ali (ra) ever say Ali-un-wali-ullaah in there Qalma e tauheed.??

isnt it something added afterwards by shia's and there imams.....

.

please forgive me if i appear rude to any body. i dont mean to offend any one. i just want facts.

(wasalam)

Edited by mraslambaig

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(bismillah)

(salam)

i went to some SHIA friends of mine and ask them about thier belief of Hazrat Ali (ra) being the only rightly guided khalifah of the four caliphs.

and they say that we do what ALI (ra) did. Because who would know islam more than Ali (ra) , after the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) .

i ask all Shia's out there, did the prophet (pbuh) and/or Ali (ra) ever say Ali-un-wali-ullaah in there Qalma e tauheed.??

isnt it something added afterwards by shia's and there imams.....

.

please forgive me if i appear rude to any body. i dont mean to offend any one. i just want facts.

(wasalam)

Salam

The reason why the shia add Aliyyan WaliAllah to the Kalima is because it is the Sunnat Of Allah to Bear witness to his ( Allah's) then his messenger's ( Mohammed ) and then Ali's (as) Authority .

This is evident From the Following verse in the Quran

""Only Allah is your Vali (Master) and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.""

Quran 5:55

The following explanations of the Holy Qur'an state that this divine verse was revealed in honor of Imam Ali's (as) when he gave his ring to a beggar whilst he was bowing during prayers.

1. Tafseer e Moza' al-Qur'an, page 108, published in Lahore.

2. Tafseer e Jalalein, on the border, volume 1, page 141, published in Egypt.

3. Tafseer al-Saawi Al al-Jalalein, volume 1, page 253, published in Egypt.

4. Tafseer e Fatah ul-BaYun, volume 3, page 80, published in Egypt.

5. Tafseer e Fatah ul-Qadeer, volume 2, page 53, published in Egypt.

6. Tafseer ibn e Jareer, volume 6, page 165, published in Egypt.

7. Tafseer ibn e Kaseer, volume 2, page 71, published in Egypt.

8. Tafseer e Beyzaawi, volume 1, page 236, published in Egypt.

9. Tafseer al-Nafsi, volume 1, page 289, published in Egypt.

10. Tafseer e Mazhari, volume 3, page 140, published in Delhi.

11. Tafseer e Gharaib al-Qur'an, volume 6, page 145, published in Egypt.

12. Tafseer e Kash-aaf, volume 1, page 124, published in Egypt.

13. Tafseer e Dur al-Mansoor, volume 2, page 293, published in Egypt.

14. Tafseer al-Khazin, volume 2, page 67, published in Egypt.

15. Tafseer e Mu'alim al-Tanzeel, volume 2, page 67, published in Egypt.

16. Tafseer e Waheedi, in this verse, by Allama Waheed uz-Zaman.

17. Tafseer e Kabir Raazi, volume 2, page 417, published in Egypt.

Is this not proof enough that the Name of Ali (as) must be taken as a personality with authority / Mastership from Allah ( waliallah )whenever the name of Allah and his Prophet are taken.

And Remember

"" Wa lun tajida li sunnat illah tabdila ""

Quran (48:23)

Edited by Al-Ghadeer

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Kalimah or Shahadah is the basic of Islam . If the Shahadah that s/he recites through the mouth and believes in her/his heart is wrong , s/he is not a Muslim . The real Shahada is clearly depicted in the Qur’an :

þ3:18 ÔåÏ Çááå Çäå áÇÇáå ÇáÇ åæ æÇáãáÇÆßÉ æÇæáæÇ ÇáÚáã ÞÇÆãÇ ÈÇáÞÓØ áÇÇáå ÇáÇ åæ ÇáÚÒíÒ ÇáÍßíã

[003:018] There is no god but He: That is the witness of God, His angels, and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.

@ Al-Ghadeer :

Verse 5:55 can’t refer to Ali because of its grammatical structure :

þ5:55 ÇäãÇ æáíßã Çááå æÑÓæáå æÇáÐíä ÇãäæÇ ÇáÐíä íÞíãæä ÇáÕáÇÉ æíÄÊæä ÇáÒßÇÉ æåã ÑÇßÚæä

[005:055] Only Allah is your Vali and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

The red colored portions are in plural , hence referring to many people , whomever the specified qualities can be found from . Hence it can’t address to a single person like Ali .

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Kalimah or Shahadah is the basic of Islam . If the Shahadah that s/he recites through the mouth and believes in her/his heart is wrong , s/he is not a Muslim . The real Shahada is clearly depicted in the Qur’an :

þ3:18 ÔåÏ Çááå Çäå áÇÇáå ÇáÇ åæ æÇáãáÇÆßÉ æÇæáæÇ ÇáÚáã ÞÇÆãÇ ÈÇáÞÓØ áÇÇáå ÇáÇ åæ ÇáÚÒíÒ ÇáÍßíã

[003:018] There is no god but He: That is the witness of God, His angels, and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise.

@ Al-Ghadeer :

Verse 5:55 can’t refer to Ali because of its grammatical structure :

þ5:55 ÇäãÇ æáíßã Çááå æÑÓæáå æÇáÐíä ÇãäæÇ ÇáÐíä íÞíãæä ÇáÕáÇÉ æíÄÊæä ÇáÒßÇÉ æåã ÑÇßÚæä

[005:055] Only Allah is your Vali and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

The red colored portions are in plural , hence referring to many people , whomever the specified qualities can be found from . Hence it can’t address to a single person like Ali .

But word Wali in above verse is singular

It is the same word which is applied to

1. Allah

2. His Rasool

3. those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow

To use a plural word and mean a singular, a single entity., in order that it may be applied to all suitable candidates, even if at present there be only one person or thing to which it could be applied.

for example

æóÍóÑøóãúäóÇ Úóáóíúåö ÇáúãóÑóÇÖöÚó ãöäú ÞóÈúáõ ÝóÞóÇáóÊú åóáú ÃóÏõáøõßõãú Úóáóìٰ Ãóåúáö ÈóíúÊò íóßúÝõáõæäóåõ áóßõãú æóåõãú áóåõ äóÇÕöÍõæäó {12}

[28:12] And we ordained that he refused suck at first, until (His sister came up and) said: "Shall I point out to you the people of a house that will nourish and bring him up for you and be sincerely attached to him?"...

Highlighted part is plural but it is only meant for mother of Musa(as)

Edited by elite

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But word Wali in above verse is singular

It is the same word which is applied to

1. Allah

2. His Rasool

3. those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow

To use a plural word and mean a singular, a single entity., in order that it may be applied to all suitable candidates, even if at present there be only one person or thing to which it could be applied.

Though logic is a rare thing in Shiasm , 5:55 demands some logical analyzes :

01. Almighty Allah could have simply stated ‘ Your Vali is GOD and HIS messenger and Ali , the cousin of the Messenger ’ or something similar to it where Ali’s name could be mentioned . Who dared to stop Almighty Allah from doing so ? Nobody has the power to resist Almighty Allah if HE , the Exalted intended to mention Ali in that verse . But the mare and simple fact is HE, the Exalted didn’t relate this verse to Ali and consequently didn’t mention his name . An enlightening parallel in this regard is the appointment of Haroon as the Wazir of Prophet Musa . Almighty Allah explicitly had taken Haroon’s name in the Qur’an to confirm his appointment :

[25:35] We have given Moses the scripture, and appointed his brother Aaron to be his Wazir.

So matter of wonder that as Shia perceive that appointment of Ali as the successor of the Messenger Muhammad is the fundamental of Islam , is absent in verse 5:55 as well as in the whole Quran while appointment of Haroon as the Wazir of Musa in clearly mentioned in the Qur’an which may not as important as the prior , especially for the current Muslim Ummah , how Almighty GOD missed the essentials and kept the subsidiary ?

Again this could be a food of though for the rational Muslims not might be for a Shia .

02. Why Almighty Allah used plural number if HE , the Exalted really wanted it to refer to a single person ? What stops HIM , the Exalted to use singular in verse 5:55 ? The simple and mare fact again that HE, the Exalted really addressed several persons there whoever the qualities are bestowed to .

Now , the Wali is attached with plural object pronoun . Moreover the nominative Subject Wali is for : One Singular noun (Allah) + One Singular noun (Messenger) + Many Plural Persons ( who establish Salah and bring forth Zakah) . That means they are together a collective group unit . Hence singular Wali is nothing odd to refer to a single group where Almighty Allah , HIS messenger and the believing persons banded together .

for example

æóÍóÑøóãúäóÇ Úóáóíúåö ÇáúãóÑóÇÖöÚó ãöäú ÞóÈúáõ ÝóÞóÇáóÊú åóáú ÃóÏõáøõßõãú Úóáóìٰ Ãóåúáö ÈóíúÊò íóßúÝõáõæäóåõ áóßõãú æóåõãú áóåõ äóÇÕöÍõæäó {12}

[28:12] And we ordained that he refused suck at first, until (His sister came up and) said: "Shall I point out to you the people of a house that will nourish and bring him up for you and be sincerely attached to him?"...

Highlighted part is plural but it is only meant for mother of Musa(as)

Verse 28:12 is perfect from grammatical point of view . The plural portions are for ’ Ahal Bayt’ (People of a house) as mentioned in the verse not for the mother of Moosa . Check all of them are in masculine plural , which grammatically related with ‘Ahal’ . We have already discussed this issue that the objects of ‘Ahal’ is always masculine and plural . If the grammatical denotation of verse 28:12 was the mother of Moosa then the usage of masculine is a grammatical error in the verse , which is impossible , Almighty GOD never make a mistake .

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Though logic is a rare thing in Shiasm , 5:55 demands some logical analyzes :

01. Almighty Allah could have simply stated ‘ Your Vali is GOD and HIS messenger and Ali , the cousin of the Messenger ’ or something similar to it where Ali’s name could be mentioned . Who dared to stop Almighty Allah from doing so ? Nobody has the power to resist Almighty Allah if HE , the Exalted intended to mention Ali in that verse . But the mare and simple fact is HE, the Exalted didn’t relate this verse to Ali and consequently didn’t mention his name . An enlightening parallel in this regard is the appointment of Haroon as the Wazir of Prophet Musa . Almighty Allah explicitly had taken Haroon’s name in the Qur’an to confirm his appointment :

[25:35] We have given Moses the scripture, and appointed his brother Aaron to be his Wazir.

So matter of wonder that as Shia perceive that appointment of Ali as the successor of the Messenger Muhammad is the fundamental of Islam , is absent in verse 5:55 as well as in the whole Quran while appointment of Haroon as the Wazir of Musa in clearly mentioned in the Qur’an which may not as important as the prior , especially for the current Muslim Ummah , how Almighty GOD missed the essentials and kept the subsidiary ?

Again this could be a food of though for the rational Muslims not might be for a Shia .

02. Why Almighty Allah used plural number if HE , the Exalted really wanted it to refer to a single person ? What stops HIM , the Exalted to use singular in verse 5:55 ? The simple and mare fact again that HE, the Exalted really addressed several persons there whoever the qualities are bestowed to .

Now , the Wali is attached with plural object pronoun . Moreover the nominative Subject Wali is for : One Singular noun (Allah) + One Singular noun (Messenger) + Many Plural Persons ( who establish Salah and bring forth Zakah) . That means they are together a collective group unit . Hence singular Wali is nothing odd to refer to a single group where Almighty Allah , HIS messenger and the believing persons banded together .

Check your logic here.

Can Allah(Singular noun)+ His angels(Plural noun) in verse 33:56 become a collective group unit according to your logic ?

If yes then why " yusalloona AAala alnnabiyyi " is plural here.

Edited by elite

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to my Shia friends out there..

.

first of all..

we do not see Ali-un-wali-ullaah anywhere in the quran, neither did the prophet ever say it........... i couldnt find a single hadith about it.

.

secondly...

u people have added it , so it is a bid'ah. NO ARGUMENTS please.

.

and lastly,,

did any of your imams allow/say/ordered to add Ali-un-wali-ullaah in the kalma??

references please..

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to my Shia friends out there..

.

first of all..

we do not see Ali-un-wali-ullaah anywhere in the quran, neither did the prophet ever say it........... i couldnt find a single hadith about it.

secondly...

u people have added it , so it is a bid'ah. NO ARGUMENTS please..

(salam)

1.

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ ٱللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ ۥ وَٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ ٱلَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَيُؤۡتُونَ ٱلزَّكَوٰةَ وَهُمۡ رَٲكِعُونَ

Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow. (5:55)

Imam Ali (a.s) was the only one at the time of Prophet who paid zakat while he was in the state bowing (ruku'). here are just some of the sunni

references which mentioned the revelation of the above verse of quran in honor of Imam Ali (a.s):

(1) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ahmad Ibn Muhammad al-Tha'labi, under Verse 5:55

(2) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Ibn Jarir al-Tabari, v6, pp 186,288-289

(3) Tafsir Jamiul Hukam al-Quran, by Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Qurtubi, v6, p219

(4) Tafsir al-Khazin, v2, p68

(5) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 293-294

(6) Tafsir al-Kashshaf, by al-Zamakhshari, Egypt 1373, v1, pp 505,649

(7) Asbab al-Nuzool, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, Egypt 1382, v1, p73 on the authority of Ibn Abbas

(8) Asbab al-Nuzool, by al-Wahidi

(9) Sharh al-Tjrid, by Allama Qushji

(10) Ahkam al-Quran, al-Jassas, v2, pp 542-543

(11) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p38

(12) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p391

(13) al-Awsat, by Tabarani, narrated from Ammar Yasir

(14) Ibn Mardawayh, on the authority of Ibn Abbas

on ghadir the prophet (s) said: Prophet added: "Certainly Allah is my MAWLA and I am WALI (master/guardian) of all the faithful."

Then he grasped the hand of Ali and said: "He (Ali) is the WALI of all those of whom I am WALI. O Allah! Love those who love him and hate

those who hate him."

- Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, p21

- al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p109

2. if your talking about the adhan than those who say it with the intention of it being obligatory hes adhan is invalid. i got an argument,

can you please tell me who removed haya ala khayri amal from the adhan and also invented prayers is better than sleep,

isn't that bid'ah?

wa salam

Edited by Son Of Adam

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Check your logic here.

Can Allah(Singular noun)+ His angels(Plural noun) in verse 33:56 become a collective group unit according to your logic ?

If yes then why " yusalloona AAala alnnabiyyi " is plural here.

Why the patterns of all verses needed to be same ? Morever in verse 5:55 we focus on noun while this is about verb .

Okay , let me assume for sake of argument that the last portion is about a person , more specifically , is about Ali .

Now , we got the equation : Allah + HIS Messenger + Ali = 03 different entities .

If you reject my explanation , you must need to admit that for 03 different entities Wali must be plural and should be Awliya . Then the grammar used in that verse is wrong !

The same applies to the equation : Allah + HIS Messenger + 1 million persons = 1000002 different entities .

Arabic plural starts from three to infinity . Hence , the usage of Ali or usage of 1 million persons have the same effect in the nominative noun Wali used at the beginning of the verse .

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Why the patterns of all verses needed to be same ? Morever in verse 5:55 we focus on noun while this is about verb .

Okay , let me assume for sake of argument that the last portion is about a person , more specifically , is about Ali .

Now , we got the equation : Allah + HIS Messenger + Ali = 03 different entities .

If you reject my explanation , you must need to admit that for 03 different entities Wali must be plural and should be Awliya . Then the grammar used in that verse is wrong !

The same applies to the equation : Allah + HIS Messenger + 1 million persons = 1000002 different entities .

Arabic plural starts from three to infinity . Hence , the usage of Ali or usage of 1 million persons have the same effect in the nominative noun Wali used at the beginning of the verse .

[112:1] Say: He, Allah, is One.

Why Allah subhanhu uses Plural for himself in the following verses.?

[[2:23] And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

[97:1] Surely We revealed it on the grand night.

There are so many veses like above in quran.

Edited by elite

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2. if your talking about the adhan than those who say it with the intention of it being obligatory hes adhan is invalid. i got an argument,

can you please tell me who removed haya ala khayri amal from the adhan and also invented prayers is better than sleep,

isn't that bid'ah?

wa salam

prayer is better than sleep was started by Hazrat Umar (ra) . a close companion of the prophet, prestigious sahabi. we can assume here that a man at that position would not introduce something opposite to islam.

and what he added , generally is a good sentence, to make people realize that prayer is better that sleep, moreover, it is only in the fajr prayer. its the time when people are sleeping.

bt

bt

how do u justify Ali-un-wali-ullaah in the adhan? was that a practice of the prophet (pbuh) ? his sahabi's (ra) ? or did ever hazrat Ali (ra) say Ali-un-wali-ullaah in the adhan?

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[112:1] Say: He, Allah, is One.

Why Allah subhanhu uses Plural for himself in the following verses.?

[[2:23] And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful.

[97:1] Surely We revealed it on the grand night.

There are so many veses like above in quran.

Your target is moving bro . The above case is completely different than what we are discussing. This is Majestic/Royal plural which is being used in so many languages , especially Semitic languages like Arabic and Hebrew . Here is a little information for you :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_plural

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Your target is moving bro . The above case is completely different than what we are discussing. This is Majestic/Royal plural which is being used in so many languages , especially Semitic languages like Arabic and Hebrew . Here is a little information for you :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_plural

If it is Majestic/Royal plural then what do you say about following verses?

Why following verses Allah Subahanahu uses singular for himself ?

[15:28] And when your Lord said to the angels: Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape.

[2:41] And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.

Edited by elite

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If it is Majestic/Royal plural then what do you say about following verses?

Why following verses Allah Subahanahu uses singular for himself ?

[15:28] And when your Lord said to the angels: Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape.

[2:41] And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.

Majestic Plural never been used through out any Semitic literature . But its usages are observed scattering in them , e.g., Qur'an and Bible both . Here is more reading for you :

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234958713-the-majestic-we

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/51625-uniplurality-in-the-hebrew-scriptures

http://www.al-islam.org/falsafa/48.htm

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Majestic Plural never been used through out any Semitic literature . But its usages are observed scattering in them , e.g., Qur'an and Bible both . Here is more reading for you :

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234958713-the-majestic-we

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/51625-uniplurality-in-the-hebrew-scriptures

http://www.al-islam.org/falsafa/48.htm

Alhamdolillah since you understand what majestic plural is let me inform you that the Plural in ayat 5:55 is majestic plural i.e referring to a single person yet in plural tense

Even if it is not ( Hypothetically accepting that it is meant for many people ), I and son of Adam have presented proof that it was revealed in the Honor of Imam Ali (as)

Here is a Challenge :::

" Prove that the last part of Ayat 5:55 being Plural ( as you said ) is referring to anyone else ( other than Imam Ali (as), who is then also a wali ) from Authentic Texts with References "

Till such a time you do that Accept the fact that it is only and only for the honor of Imam Ali (as) [Wali-Allah] and nobody else.

Edited by Al-Ghadeer

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This is evident From the Following verse in the Quran

""Only Allah is your Vali (Master) and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.""

Quran 5:55

The following explanations of the Holy Qur'an state that this divine verse was revealed in honor of Imam Ali's (as) when he gave his ring to a beggar whilst he was bowing during prayers.

1. Tafseer e Moza' al-Qur'an, page 108, published in Lahore.

2. Tafseer e Jalalein, on the border, volume 1, page 141, published in Egypt.

3. Tafseer al-Saawi Al al-Jalalein, volume 1, page 253, published in Egypt.

4. Tafseer e Fatah ul-BaYun, volume 3, page 80, published in Egypt.

5. Tafseer e Fatah ul-Qadeer, volume 2, page 53, published in Egypt.

6. Tafseer ibn e Jareer, volume 6, page 165, published in Egypt.

7. Tafseer ibn e Kaseer, volume 2, page 71, published in Egypt.

8. Tafseer e Beyzaawi, volume 1, page 236, published in Egypt.

9. Tafseer al-Nafsi, volume 1, page 289, published in Egypt.

10. Tafseer e Mazhari, volume 3, page 140, published in Delhi.

11. Tafseer e Gharaib al-Qur'an, volume 6, page 145, published in Egypt.

12. Tafseer e Kash-aaf, volume 1, page 124, published in Egypt.

13. Tafseer e Dur al-Mansoor, volume 2, page 293, published in Egypt.

14. Tafseer al-Khazin, volume 2, page 67, published in Egypt.

15. Tafseer e Mu'alim al-Tanzeel, volume 2, page 67, published in Egypt.

16. Tafseer e Waheedi, in this verse, by Allama Waheed uz-Zaman.

17. Tafseer e Kabir Raazi, volume 2, page 417, published in Egypt.

I can see several good and usual examples of lie in this post.

For example reference second to book of Suyuti. It's lie. Because there written:

{ ÅöäóøãóÇ æóáöíõøßõãõ ٱááóøåõ æóÑóÓõæáõåõ æóٱáóøÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇú ٱáóøÐöíäó íõÞöíãõæäó ٱáÕóøáÇóÉó æóíõÄúÊõæäó ٱáÒóøßóÇÉó æóåõãú ÑóÇßöÚõæäó }

When [‘Abd Allāh] Ibn Salām said, ‘O Messenger of God, our people have shunned us’, the following was revealed: Your patron is God only, and His Messenger, and the believers who establish prayer and pay the alms, bowing down, humble, or performing voluntary prayers.

LINK

Number 7 is also not true.

Here is a Challenge :::

" Prove that the last part of Ayat 5:55 being Plural ( as you said ) is referring to anyone else ( other than Imam Ali (as), who is then also a wali ) from Authentic Texts with References "

May be first you and your brother would prove that this verse was revealed about Ali (ra) from authentic narrations?

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prayer is better than sleep was started by Hazrat Umar (ra) . a close companion of the prophet, prestigious sahabi. we can assume here that a man at that position would not introduce something opposite to islam.

and what he added , generally is a good sentence, to make people realize that prayer is better that sleep, moreover, it is only in the fajr prayer. its the time when people are sleeping.

bt

bt

how do u justify Ali-un-wali-ullaah in the adhan? was that a practice of the prophet (pbuh) ? his sahabi's (ra) ? or did ever hazrat Ali (ra) say Ali-un-wali-ullaah in the adhan?

Please read your own words carefully.

Either Your mind is turned off or it is on a holiday. Qouting from your post

prayer is better than sleep was started by Hazrat Umar (ra) .

Started by Prophet Mohammed (saw) = Sunnah

Started by Any one else After the Prophet = Bid'ah

hence Started by Umar = Bid'ah

Simple Logic

No matter how pious the sahabas were there were some sahaba's who went Apostates During / After the time of the Prophet.

And there were Sahaba's WHO MADE INNOVATIONS ( BID'AH)

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Started by Prophet Mohammed (saw) = Sunnah

Started by Any one else After the Prophet = Bid'ah

hence Started by Umar = Bid'ah

Simple Logic

No matter how pious the sahabas were there were some sahaba's who went Apostates During / After the time of the Prophet.

And there were Sahaba's WHO MADE INNOVATIONS ( BID'AH)

Perfect logic. First of all I don't believe that it was started by Umar. But for the sake of the argument I would accept that. Tell who started to mention Ali (ra) in azan?

Your rule:

Started by Prophet Mohammed (saw) = Sunnah

Started by Any one else After the Prophet = Bid'ah

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I can see several good and usual examples of lie in this post.

For example reference second to book of Suyuti. It's lie. Because there written:

{ ÅöäóøãóÇ æóáöíõøßõãõ ٱááóøåõ æóÑóÓõæáõåõ æóٱáóøÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇú ٱáóøÐöíäó íõÞöíãõæäó ٱáÕóøáÇóÉó æóíõÄúÊõæäó ٱáÒóøßóÇÉó æóåõãú ÑóÇßöÚõæäó }

When [‘Abd Allāh] Ibn Salām said, ‘O Messenger of God, our people have shunned us’, the following was revealed: Your patron is God only, and His Messenger, and the believers who establish prayer and pay the alms, bowing down, humble, or performing voluntary prayers.

LINK

Number 7 is also not true.

May be first you and your brother would prove that this verse was revealed about Ali (ra) from authentic narrations?

Brother do you mind Checking out the original references ( The reason why the place of publishing is also given ) and not online references because you people are of the habit of editing/changing your own texts while translating and reprinting ( eg. the darussalam project )

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Brother do you mind Checking out the original references ( The reason why the place of publishing is also given ) and not online references because you people are of the habit of editing/changing your own texts while translating and reprinting ( eg. the darussalam project )

If you claim that mentioned books on tafsir agreed that this verse was revealed about Ali (ra) , you should give an evidence from sources. Not me. Site from where I copied text of Jalalain is shia one. Because I am in doubt that any sunni would put shia books on his site. And you can see a lot of shia books there on-line.

I believe you didn't read all those mentioned books yourself, and just copied it from on-line shia sources. You would be surprised to see how many lies we can find there together. So kind advice don't trust to shias sources when they are quoting from sunni books, or at least try to locate quotes in original sources.

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Perfect logic. First of all I don't believe that it was started by Umar. But for the sake of the argument I would accept that. Tell who started to mention Ali (ra) in azan?

Your rule:

Started by Prophet Mohammed (saw) = Sunnah

Started by Any one else After the Prophet = Bid'ah

Dont try misqouting

IT is not my rule.

It is the Rule of the Ahle-Sunnah [ YOUR RULE ]

and regarding umar's bid'ah here's a Tradition

Caliph Umar Ascended the pulpit and said:

" O people! Three things were permitted during the time of the prophet (saw) but I abolish them and consider them Unlawful. I would Punish one who commits them. They are Performing mutah with woman, Mutah of hajj, and saying hayya alla khayril amal in the azan "

Sharh e Tajweed

similarly Umar Making changes to the Religion of Prophet Mohammed (saw) can be found in

Isabah fi Marefatus Sahaba Vol2, pg 63 printed egypt

Muwatta of Imam Malik Vol2, pg 30 printed egypt

Tafsir Kabir vol3 pg195, printed egypt

kanzul Ummal Vol3

Zaad al Maad vol1 pg 243

Sahih Tirmidhi Pg106 printed nawal kishor press ( imam tirmidhi called it 'Hasan' And 'Sahih' )

Fathul Bari Sharh sahih Bukari Vol9 pg138

Sahih Muslim vol1 pg45 printed delhi

and many other books.

So it Would be best that we not discuss the said personality and instead concentrate on the topic

Edited by Al-Ghadeer

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Dont try misqouting

IT is not my rule.

It is the Rule of the Ahle-Sunnah [ YOUR RULE ]

and regarding umar's bid'ah here's a Tradition

Caliph Umar Ascended the pulpit and said:

" O people! Three things were permitted during the time of the prophet (saw) but I abolish them and consider them Unlawful. I would Punish one who commits them. They are Performing mutah with woman, Mutah of hajj, and saying hayya alla khayril amal in the azan "

Sharh e Tajweed

similarly Umar Making changes to the Religion of Prophet Mohammed (saw) can be found in

Isabah fi Marefatus Sahaba Vol2, pg 63 printed egypt

Muwatta of Imam Malik Vol2, pg 30 printed egypt

Tafsir Kabir vol3 pg195, printed egypt

kanzul Ummal Vol3

Zaad al Maad vol1 pg 243

Sahih Tirmidhi Pg106 printed nawal kishor press ( imam tirmidhi call it 'Hasan' And 'Sahih' )

Fathul Bari Sharh sahih Bukari Vol9 pg138

Sahih Muslim vol1 pg45 printed delhi

and many other books.

So it Would be best that we not discuss the said personality and instead concentrate on the topic

Again bunch of references? Like above? Can you give here direct ON LINE reference or scan? Because I am sure that if I would refer to mentioned books, I wouldn't find that hadith.

Abu Dawud in his Sunnan (501) narrated hadith from Muhammad ibn Abdulmalik ibn Abu Mahzura from his father from grandfather, that prophet (pbuh) taught him azan and in it was phrase "prayer is better than sleep". Hadith is saheeh.

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If you claim that mentioned books on tafsir agreed that this verse was revealed about Ali (ra) , you should give an evidence from sources. Not me. Site from where I copied text of Jalalain is shia one. Because I am in doubt that any sunni would put shia books on his site. And you can see a lot of shia books there on-line.

I believe you didn't read all those mentioned books yourself, and just copied it from on-line shia sources. You would be surprised to see how many lies we can find there together. So kind advice don't trust to shias sources when they are quoting from sunni books, or at least try to locate quotes in original sources.

ok so here is as you wanted some of your books saying Ali un Waliallah

riyadh_al_nadira_p116.jpg

Edited by Al-Ghadeer

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Did I say that Ali isn't waliAllah? Seems to me we are speaking in different languages.

If you accept that Ali is WaliAllah

then we don't have an argument

Congratulations

still for your satisfaction over the verse 5:55 reference

the_ghadir_p48-49.jpg

Edited by Al-Ghadeer

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For More Over Ali un Waliallah Ponder over the following

yanabi_al_muwadah_v1_p294.jpg

mansab_imamat_p109-110.jpg

tafseer_mazhari_v3_p353.jpg

sawaiq_almuhriqa_p503.jpg

I guess you ment that hz ali(ra) alone is not wali Allah.. infact All the sahaba(ra) were wali Allah... isnt it?

do get me hadith with references ( and scanned as brother had asked earlier ) that other sahaba have been called WaliAllah

I have provided scanned references for Ali Waliallah.

Pls do the same for the other sahaba

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Again bunch of references? Like above? Can you give here direct ON LINE reference or scan? Because I am sure that if I would refer to mentioned books, I wouldn't find that hadith.

Abu Dawud in his Sunnan (501) narrated hadith from Muhammad ibn Abdulmalik ibn Abu Mahzura from his father from grandfather, that prophet (pbuh) taught him azan and in it was phrase "prayer is better than sleep". Hadith is saheeh.

Here is a scanned reference for "prayer is better than sleep is an innovation of Umar bin Khattab"

mishkat_al_masabih_p142.jpg

Here is a scanned reference for "prayer is better than sleep is an innovation of Umar bin Khattab"

mishkat_al_masabih_p142.jpg

Analyzing the sanad of the hadeeth you have quoted from sunan abi dawood :::

The Sanad contains al-Harith bin Ubaid al-Eyadi about whom Imam Dahabi said: 'Not strong' (Al-Kashif, v1 p303), Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal said: 'His narration is not reliable' (Tahdib al-Kamal, v5 p259), Imam Yahya bin Moin said: 'Weak' (Tahdib al-Kamal, v5 p260), Imam Abu Hatim said: 'Not strong' (Tahdib al-kamal, v5 p260), Imam Nisai said: 'Not strong' (Tahdib al-Kamal, v5 p260).

Also

the Sanad includes Muhammad bin Abdulmalik who has been declared unknown by ibn al-Qatan (Tahdib al-Tahdib, v9 p317), Mardini (Al-Jawhar al-Naqi, v1 p392), Shawkani (Nail al-Awtar, v2 p17) and Zailaei (Nasb al-Raya by Zailaei, v1 p363).

I wonder how you called the hadeeth Sahih !!

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Alhamdolillah since you understand what majestic plural is let me inform you that the Plural in ayat 5:55 is majestic plural i.e referring to a single person yet in plural tense

OMG ! This just the first time somebody telling me that Majestic Plural has been used in the Qur’an for a human apart from Almighty Allah . You even didn’t read the links I pasted from Shia sources only . Anyway I will not mind to let you wandering in this misguidance if you think Ali is god . :)

Even if it is not ( Hypothetically accepting that it is meant for many people ), I and son of Adam have presented proof that it was revealed in the Honor of Imam Ali (as)

Here is a Challenge :::

" Prove that the last part of Ayat 5:55 being Plural ( as you said ) is referring to anyone else ( other than Imam Ali (as), who is then also a wali ) from Authentic Texts with References "

Till such a time you do that Accept the fact that it is only and only for the honor of Imam Ali (as) [Wali-Allah] and nobody else.

Hypothetical is your understanding , not mine . The verse is in plural which is reality and to think it is singular is just not hypothetical but also sign of metal disorder .

إنما وليكم الله ورسوله والذين آمنوا الذين يقيمون الصلاة ويؤتون الزكاة وهم راكعون 5:55

الذين

آمنو

يقيمون

يؤتون

راكعون

All the above words are Plural . Now people can see whose brain is hypothetical .

Okay , now lets talk about challenge . Before that I must need to inform you , also for your future mingle with me , I AM NOT A SUNNI . Hence Sunni Tafsir and Ahadith are as useless to me as the Shias' are . Almighty Allah already answered your questions in that very verse . Those people are the Wali :

01- الذين آمنو = Who have believed

02- ا الذين يقيمون الصلاة = Who establish Salah

03-ا الذين يؤتون الزكاة = Whomever bring forth Zakah

04-هم راكعون = Who bow

Whomever endowed with these four qualities are the Wali . This verse is open for any time to come and free from any centralization , e.g., for any specific persons or any specific groups .

Take care and good night .

Edited by union

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1. your first scan was from yanabi mawadda:

http://gift2shias.com/2010/02/15/qunduzi-and-his-yanabil-mawadda/

Well we dont consider it to be a sunni book, just see the title of that chapter.. you will realize that its a work of shia scholar..

2. the book of shah ismail shaheed is not a hadees book its a secondary source plz bring us a primary source of hadees..

3. then you posted scan of tafseer mazhari, but you failed to even read that the author himself after stating the part you quoted refutes that narration stating that its incorrect..

4. lastly you posted translation of al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah which is also not ahadees book...so stop posting secondary sources and plz post the direct hadees...

do get me hadith with references ( and scanned as brother had asked earlier ) that other sahaba have been called WaliAllah
scan page of secondary source will not make it primary source..

hadees!! well i will give you verse of quran dont worry:

“Your Wali is only Allah, His Messenger, and the believers who establish prayer and give charity, and they bow down.” (al-Ma’idah:55)

it doesnt speak of only one person but the believers in general..

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Here is a scanned reference for "prayer is better than sleep is an innovation of Umar bin Khattab"

mishkat_al_masabih_p142.jpg

Analyzing the sanad of the hadeeth you have quoted from sunan abi dawood :::

The Sanad contains al-Harith bin Ubaid al-Eyadi about whom Imam Dahabi said: 'Not strong' (Al-Kashif, v1 p303), Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal said: 'His narration is not reliable' (Tahdib al-Kamal, v5 p259), Imam Yahya bin Moin said: 'Weak' (Tahdib al-Kamal, v5 p260), Imam Abu Hatim said: 'Not strong' (Tahdib al-kamal, v5 p260), Imam Nisai said: 'Not strong' (Tahdib al-Kamal, v5 p260).

Also

the Sanad includes Muhammad bin Abdulmalik who has been declared unknown by ibn al-Qatan (Tahdib al-Tahdib, v9 p317), Mardini (Al-Jawhar al-Naqi, v1 p392), Shawkani (Nail al-Awtar, v2 p17) and Zailaei (Nasb al-Raya by Zailaei, v1 p363).

I wonder how you called the hadeeth Sahih !!

As for scanned page you posted the only one hadith there related to our talk is hadith from Muwatta. Imam Malik narrated it in balaghat form, without any chain, so it's weak, not established.

Anyway here you go

Lots other narrations.

Edited by Lonely warrior

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Majestic Plural never been used through out any Semitic literature . But its usages are observed scattering in them , e.g., Qur'an and Bible both . Here is more reading for you :

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234958713-the-majestic-we

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/51625-uniplurality-in-the-hebrew-scriptures

http://www.al-islam.org/falsafa/48.htm

[36:2] By the wise Qur'an,

If it is Majestic Plural It must have been used throughly.

Why somewhere it is used and why somewhere it is not?

I see some other reason behind plural used or Allah subhanhu.

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[36:2] By the wise Qur'an,

If it is Majestic Plural It must have been used throughly.

Why somewhere it is used and why somewhere it is not?

I see some other reason behind plural used or Allah subhanhu.

Ask this question to your Shia scholars and post them here . I bet they will say the same I told you but you r not going to listen to me no matter how much I bang my head in the stone . I have experience with you that you just continue to argue on unnecessary things .

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Ask this question to your Shia scholars and post them here . I bet they will say the same I told you but you r not going to listen to me no matter how much I bang my head in the stone . I have experience with you that you just continue to argue on unnecessary things .

Plural is used in quran for acts done by means

وَنَفَخْتُ and breathed

For Adam(as) Allah subhanhu uses singular for him because he himself breathed his spirit in Adam(as)

[15:29] So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him.

[38:72] So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, then fall down making obeisance to him.

فَنَفَخْنَا so We breathed

For Isa(as) Allah Subhanhu uses Plural for himself because breathing of Spirit for Isa was done by means of ‘Ruh’ who was sent by Allah subhanhu

[19:17] So she took a veil (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.

[19:18] She said: Surely I fly for refuge from you to the Beneficent Allah, if you are one guarding (against evil).

[19:19] He said: I am only a messenger of your Lord: That I will give you a pure boy.

[21:91] And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our inspiration and made her and her son a sign for the nations.

[66:12] And Marium, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our inspiration and she accepted the truth of the words of her Lord and His books, and she was of, the obedient ones.

Similarly Allah subhanhu revealed quran By angle Jibreel so he uses plural for that act.

[2:97] Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.

So for revealation which was done by Jibreel Allah subhanhu uses plural for him

أَنزَلْنَآ We revealed

[97:1] Surely We revealed it on the grand night.

Some revealations which he directly sent to Mohammad(saw) for that he uses singular for himself

أَنزَلْتُ I revealed

[2:41] And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.

So when Allah subhanhu said ‘I m going to create’ nobody is involved in his wish

[38:71] When your Lord said to the angels; Surely I am going to create a mortal from dust:

[15:28] And when your Lord said to the angels: Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape.

But for creation he did it by means so he used plural for him

[55:14] He created man from sounding clay like unto pottery,,

Allah collected from hard, soft, sweet and sour earth, clay which He dripped in water till it got pure, and kneaded it with moisture till it became gluey. From it He carved an image with curves, joints, limbs and segments. He solidified it till it dried up for a fixed time and a known duration. Then He blew into it out of His Spirit whereupon it took the pattern of a human being with mind that governs him, intelligence which he makes use of, limbs that serve him, organs that change his position, sagacity that differentiates between truth and untruth, tastes and smells, colours and species. He is a mixture of clays of different colours, cohesive materials, divergent contradictories and differing properties like heat, cold, softness and hardness.

Description of the Creation of Adam Sermon 1 Nahjul balaghah

All above acts collecting clay,dripping was done by some blessed servants of Allah subhanhu that’s why Allah subahnhu uses plural while mentioning above stages.

[37:11] Then ask them whether they are stronger in creation or those (others) whom We have created. Surely We created them of a sticky clay.

[15:26] We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;

And All humans are created by means of male & female that’s why Allah subhanhu uses plural for him

[49:13] O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware.

[76:2] Surely We have created man from a small life-germ uniting (itself): We mean to try him, so We have made him hearing, seeing.

Edited by elite

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