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lotfilms

Are There Authentic Hadiths Of The Imams...

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(bismillah)

(salam)

i know the hadith that describes the Imams, "He is born, he gets gets ill, he forgets, he makes mistakes, etc etc" (though many say that this is taqiyyah)

But i'm curious to see if there are authentic examples of this.

i'm curious about this because there are hadiths in Shia books of the Prophet (pbuh), the best of creation, forgetting or making mistakes (with the explanation being that he was made to forget/make a mistake).

So i'm curious if such hadiths are reported about the Imams as well.

Or if there are no authentic hadiths, then any will do.

w/s

Edited by lotfilms

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Sallams brother. There is a hadith like that in my mind. The hadith is authentic as the chain is saheeh according to the shia Rijal.

Its in the volume 1 of Usool e kafi , page 367.(page 367 in the copy i have)

Reported from Imam Baqir by Abu Hamza Samali , he says that I heard Imam Baqir saying " Allah had fixed the time of 70 AH for the arrival of mehdi but then the event of karbala took plave and Allah got angry so he delayed his arrival till 140 AH.However,we told you (did not keep the secret) and you spread the news,you unveiled the secret so after that Allah did not fix any time for mehdi's arrival.Allah makes anything vanished which he desires any keeps whatever he desires.Its Allah who has the "umul kitaab" (mother of all books"

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(salam) (bismillah)

Yes brother there is an authentic hadith in Al Kafi suggesting that the Prophet (saww) prayed 2 rakats in salat instead of 4 due to sahww. Read it yourself if you want a better understanding:

Çáßáíäí Úä ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì ¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚíÓì Úä ÚËãÇä Èä ÚíÓì Úä ÓãÇÚÉ Èä ãåÑÇä ÞÇá : ÞÇá ÃÈæ ÚÈÏ Çááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã : ãä ÍÝÙ Óåæå ÝÃÊãå ÝáíÓ Úáíå ÓÌÏÊÇ ÇáÓåæ ¡ ÝÅä ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã Õáì ÈÇáäÇÓ æÇáÙåÑ ÑßÚÊíä Ëã ÓåÇ ÝÓáã ¡ ÝÞÇá áå Ðæ ÇáÔãÇáíä : íÇ ÑÓæá Çááå ÃäÒá Ýí ÇáÕáÇÉ ÔíÁ ¿

ÝÞÇá æãÇ Ðáß ¿

ÝÞÇá : ÅäãÇ ÕáíÊ ÑßÚÊíä ¡ ÝÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã : ÃÊÞæáæä ãËá Þæáå ¿ ÞÇáæÇ : äÚã ÝÞÇã ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã ÝÃÊã ÈåÇ ÇáÕáÇÉ æÓÌÏ Èåã ÓÌÏÊí ÇáÓåæ ÞÇá : ÞáÊ : ÃÑÃíÊ ãä Õáì ÑßÚÊíä æÙä ÃäåãÇ ÃÑÈÚÇð ÝÓáã æÇäÕÑÝ Ëã ÐßÑ ÈÚÏãÇ ÐåÈ Ãäå Õáì ÑßÚÊíä ¡ ÞÇá : íÓÊÞÈá ÇáÕáÇÉ ãä ÃæáåÇ ¡ ÝÞÇá : ÞáÊ : ÝãÇ ÈÇá ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã áã íÓÊÞÈá ÇáÕáÇÉ æÅäãÇ ÃÊã Èåã ãÇ ÈÞí ãä ÕáÇÊå ¿ ÝÞÇá : Ãä ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã áã íÈÑÍ ãä ãÌáÓå ¡ ÝÅä ßÇä áã íÈÑÍ ãä ãÌáÓå ÝáíÊã ãÇ äÞÕ ãä ÕáÇÊå ÅÐÇ ßÇä ÞÏ ÍÝÙ ÇáÑßÚÊíä ÇáÃæáíÊíä

Al Kafi Volume 3 Page 355 and Allamah Majlisi grading this as muwaththaqq (trustworthy)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

i know the hadith that describes the Imams, "He is born, he gets gets ill, he forgets, he makes mistakes, etc etc" (though many say that this is taqiyyah)

But i'm curious to see if there are authentic examples of this.

i'm curious about this because there are hadiths in Shia books of the Prophet (pbuh), the best of creation, forgetting or making mistakes (with the explanation being that he was made to forget/make a mistake).

So i'm curious if such hadiths are reported about the Imams as well.

Or if there are no authentic hadiths, then any will do.

w/s

your question seems same as claimed in this post: http://islamistruth.wordpress.com/2010/11/30/prophet-mohammad-pbuh-vs-shia-imams/

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(bismillah)

(salam)

that is a fitna site, whereas the question of bro lotfilms is to see if there is an answer.

these are theological debates and discussions the answers of which might be beyond us.

but as per my 2 cents, the holy prophet (pbuh) did not have to or did not demonstrate personally all that is right and wrong.

do i need to expand, no.

but just as a small example divorce is allowed but he(sawws) did not perform it personally, so why the need to forget to show us that he(sawws) was a human like us.

infact the holy quran does not talk kindly of people saying to messengers that 'you are but a man like us'. (sura yasin will do)

and if just hypothetically let us say the holy prophet (pbuh) , then it is only right and reasonable to say that the imams (as) forgot too.

afterall the imams (as) are the ahlulbayt of the holy prophet muhammad (pbuh) ibn abdullah (as)

and not independant of him (pbuh) .

the one being referenced is the loftiest

this is just basic aql

(wasalam)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

that is a fitna site, whereas the question of bro lotfilms is to see if there is an answer.

these are theological debates and discussions the answers of which might be beyond us.

but as per my 2 cents, the holy prophet (pbuh) did not have to or did not demonstrate personally all that is right and wrong.

do i need to expand, no.

but just as a small example divorce is allowed but he(sawws) did not perform it personally, so why the need to forget to show us that he(sawws) was a human like us.

infact the holy quran does not talk kindly of people saying to messengers that 'you are but a man like us'. (sura yasin will do)

and if just hypothetically let us say the holy prophet (pbuh) , then it is only right and reasonable to say that the imams (as) forgot too.

afterall the imams (as) are the ahlulbayt of the holy prophet muhammad (pbuh) ibn abdullah (as)

and not independant of him (pbuh) .

the one being referenced is the loftiest

this is just basic aql

(wasalam)

Its not "basic aql". Its a manual effort to absorb the racial creed which is is against your nature and u wont be able to digest it automatically so the effort is manual and "aql" has to be mentioned in the end to leave an impact.Every sane person has the right to over-look his religious views.The hadith which i have posted is Sahih.There the Imam has been accused of "leaking out a divine secret" for which Allah delayed the appearence of Mehdi.My view is that the theory of Infallibility of Imams will never be accepted by any person for who religion is something more than sticking to what we got from our parents.Im sure you will be aware of the issues of inheritance of Imamat involving your Imam Ismael (Imam for nizaris) and your Imam Musa Al Kadhim ( Imam for twelvers and others) after Jafar Al-Sadiq and his will.I would suggest eeryone interested in the fallacy of divine infallible Imamat concept to read the books of Ahmed Al kathib who is an ex ithna Ashari.

Edited by qalandar_1

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Its not "basic aql". Its a manual effort to absorb the racial creed which is is against your nature and u wont be able to digest it automatically so the effort is manual and "aql" has to be mentioned in the end to leave an impact.Every sane person has the right to over-look his religious views.The hadith which i have posted is Sahih.There the Imam has been accused of "leaking out a divine secret" for which Allah delayed the appearence of Mehdi.My view is that the theory of Infallibility of Imams will never be accepted by any person for who religion is something more than sticking to what we got from our parents.Im sure you will be aware of the issues of inheritance of Imamat involving your Imam Ismael (Imam for nizaris) and your Imam Musa Al Kadhim ( Imam for twelvers and others) after Jafar Al-Sadiq and his will.I would suggest eeryone interested in the fallacy of divine infallible Imamat concept to read the books of Ahmed Al kathib who is an ex ithna Ashari.

(bismillah)

(salam)

there definately is too much jargon in there for basic aql to understand.

many things come to mind but an aya which says that tell these desert arabs that islam is only on your lips/tongue, iman has not yet entered your heart.

the reading of books to find fault describes such a situation and hence sura e munafiqoon was revealed.

there is no problem with the 12 appointed guides (as) of the holy prophet (pbuh) .

when you accept the hadith of the holy prophet (pbuh) with your heart all will be clear like daylight

then there will remain no fitna of division or extensions

(wasalam)

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(salam) (bismillah)

Yes brother there is an authentic hadith in Al Kafi suggesting that the Prophet (saww) prayed 2 rakats in salat instead of 4 due to sahww. Read it yourself if you want a better understanding:

Çáßáíäí Úä ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì ¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚíÓì Úä ÚËãÇä Èä ÚíÓì Úä ÓãÇÚÉ Èä ãåÑÇä ÞÇá : ÞÇá ÃÈæ ÚÈÏ Çááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã : ãä ÍÝÙ Óåæå ÝÃÊãå ÝáíÓ Úáíå ÓÌÏÊÇ ÇáÓåæ ¡ ÝÅä ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã Õáì ÈÇáäÇÓ æÇáÙåÑ ÑßÚÊíä Ëã ÓåÇ ÝÓáã ¡ ÝÞÇá áå Ðæ ÇáÔãÇáíä : íÇ ÑÓæá Çááå ÃäÒá Ýí ÇáÕáÇÉ ÔíÁ ¿

ÝÞÇá æãÇ Ðáß ¿

ÝÞÇá : ÅäãÇ ÕáíÊ ÑßÚÊíä ¡ ÝÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã : ÃÊÞæáæä ãËá Þæáå ¿ ÞÇáæÇ : äÚã ÝÞÇã ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã ÝÃÊã ÈåÇ ÇáÕáÇÉ æÓÌÏ Èåã ÓÌÏÊí ÇáÓåæ ÞÇá : ÞáÊ : ÃÑÃíÊ ãä Õáì ÑßÚÊíä æÙä ÃäåãÇ ÃÑÈÚÇð ÝÓáã æÇäÕÑÝ Ëã ÐßÑ ÈÚÏãÇ ÐåÈ Ãäå Õáì ÑßÚÊíä ¡ ÞÇá : íÓÊÞÈá ÇáÕáÇÉ ãä ÃæáåÇ ¡ ÝÞÇá : ÞáÊ : ÝãÇ ÈÇá ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã áã íÓÊÞÈá ÇáÕáÇÉ æÅäãÇ ÃÊã Èåã ãÇ ÈÞí ãä ÕáÇÊå ¿ ÝÞÇá : Ãä ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã áã íÈÑÍ ãä ãÌáÓå ¡ ÝÅä ßÇä áã íÈÑÍ ãä ãÌáÓå ÝáíÊã ãÇ äÞÕ ãä ÕáÇÊå ÅÐÇ ßÇä ÞÏ ÍÝÙ ÇáÑßÚÊíä ÇáÃæáíÊíä

Al Kafi Volume 3 Page 355 and Allamah Majlisi grading this as muwaththaqq (trustworthy)

This Hadith has a weak matn, and is therefore unacceptable. It contradicts hundreds of other Hadiths that establish the absolute infallibility of the Prophet and his family (pbuh). It also contradicts the Shiite interpretation of the Verse of Purification.

Moreover, Imam al-Sadiq (as) has told us to always reject Hadiths that are similar to Sunni narrations whenever they contradict other Hadiths.

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This Hadith has a weak matn, and is therefore unacceptable. It contradicts hundreds of other Hadiths that establish the absolute infallibility of the Prophet and his family (pbuh). It also contradicts the Shiite interpretation of the Verse of Purification.

Moreover, Imam al-Sadiq (as) has told us to always reject Hadiths that are similar to Sunni narrations whenever they contradict other Hadiths.

Atleast you should add your ulema views as a support. I wanna see how many ulema's said matn is ghareeb.

and yes ulema must be grand personality & of earlier times not like ayatullah milani said etc.

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Atleast you should add your ulema views as a support. I wanna see how many ulema's said matn is ghareeb.

and yes ulema must be grand personality & of earlier times not like ayatullah milani said etc.

(bismillah)

Seeing as you are not in a position to either dictate the traits of an 'Aalim, nor make demands on this website.

I wouldnt take your demands very seriously, although I am happy to see in your interests you liken yourself to the company of Jaahils. At least you are honest.

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(bismillah)

Seeing as you are not in a position to either dictate the traits of an 'Aalim, nor make demands on this website.

I wouldnt take your demands very seriously, although I am happy to see in your interests you liken yourself to the company of Jaahils. At least you are honest.

my honor. see my interests in my profile. (smile)

but this is not what i asked.

Edited by ibn.askari

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(bismillah)

(salam)

My dear brothers, there is no need to argue. i asked a simple question. If nobody has an answer at this time then that's fine; i can search harder on my own. i asked a brief question to save myself some time.

No need for useless bickering.

Sallams brother. There is a hadith like that in my mind. The hadith is authentic as the chain is saheeh according to the shia Rijal.

Its in the volume 1 of Usool e kafi , page 367.(page 367 in the copy i have)

Reported from Imam Baqir by Abu Hamza Samali , he says that I heard Imam Baqir saying " Allah had fixed the time of 70 AH for the arrival of mehdi but then the event of karbala took plave and Allah got angry so he delayed his arrival till 140 AH.However,we told you (did not keep the secret) and you spread the news,you unveiled the secret so after that Allah did not fix any time for mehdi's arrival.Allah makes anything vanished which he desires any keeps whatever he desires.Its Allah who has the "umul kitaab" (mother of all books"

If this hadith is correct, then the mistake is more on the Companions than the Imam himself imo

Just like when the Prophet (pbuh) disclosed a secret to one of his wives and she spread this secret. Allah(swt) criticized her more for releasing this secret than the Prophet (pbuh) for telling her

And Allah(swt) knows best.

w/s

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Here is another such narration about the Imam but its not in AL-kafi,its in Al-khisal.

حدثنا أبي رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا أحمد بن إدريس قال: حدثني محمد بن أحمد، عن موسى بن عمر، عن عبد الله بن جبلة، عن حنان بن سدير قال: دخلت على أبي عبد الله عليه السلام وعلي نعل سوداء فقال: مالك ولبس نعل سوداء! أما علمت أن فيها ثلاث خصال؟ قال: قلت: وما هي جعلت فداك؟ قال: تضعف البصر، وترخي الذكر، وتورث الهم وهي مع ذلك من لباس الجبارين، عليك بلبس نعل صفراء فان فيها ثلاث خصال قال: قلت: وما هي قال: تحد البصر، وتشد الذكر، وتنفي الهم، وهي مع ذلك من لباس الانبياء عليهم السلام

(The compiler of the book narrated) that his father - may God be pleased with him - narrated that Ahmad ibn Idris quoted Muhammad ibn Ahmad, on the authority of Musa ibn Umar, on the authority of Abdullah ibn Jabal'le, on the authority of Han'nan ibn Sadeer, "I went to see Aba Abdullah ( Imam Jafar Al-sadiq) while I was wearing black shoes. He (MGB) asked me, 'Why are you wearing black shoes?' Don't you know that there are three attributes for them?' I said, 'May I be your ransom! No. What are they?' The Imam (MGB) said, 'They will weaken your vision, weaken your sexual drive and make you depressed. Moreover, it is part of the apparel of the oppressors. You should wear yellow shoes, since that would sharpen the vision, improve your sexual drive and reduce your depression. It is part of the Prophets' apparel."

I think i wore black shoes for years regularly and its a part of most schools uniform.***

The hadith can be viewed here.Al-khisal

Edited by Haji 2003
Insulting an Imam (a.s.). Your days here are looking numbered.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

i know the hadith that describes the Imams, "He is born, he gets gets ill, he forgets, he makes mistakes, etc etc" (though many say that this is taqiyyah)

But i'm curious to see if there are authentic examples of this.

i'm curious about this because there are hadiths in Shia books of the Prophet (pbuh), the best of creation, forgetting or making mistakes (with the explanation being that he was made to forget/make a mistake).

So i'm curious if such hadiths are reported about the Imams as well.

Or if there are no authentic hadiths, then any will do.

w/s

Are you looking for something like this :

Ali's sermon : Nahj Al Balagha , Sermon 215 :

“……….Do not evade me as the people of passion are (to be) evaded, do not meet me with flattery and do not think that I shall take it ill if a true thing is said to me, because the person who feels disgusted when truth is said to him or a just matter is placed before him would find it more difficult to act upon them. Therefore, do not abstain from saying a truth or pointing out a matter of justice because I do not regard myself above erring . I do not escape erring in my actions but that Allah helps me in matters in which He is more powerful than I. Certainly, I and you are slaves owned by Allah, other than Whom there is no Lord except Him. He owns our selves which we do not own. He took us from where we were towards what means prosperity to us. He altered our straying into guidance and gave us intelligence after blindness.”

http://www.nahjulbal....php?Sermon=215

(bismillah)

(salam)

My dear brothers, there is no need to argue. i asked a simple question. If nobody has an answer at this time then that's fine; i can search harder on my own. i asked a brief question to save myself some time.

No need for useless bickering.

If this hadith is correct, then the mistake is more on the Companions than the Imam himself imo

Just like when the Prophet (pbuh) disclosed a secret to one of his wives and she spread this secret. Allah(swt) criticized her more for releasing this secret than the Prophet (pbuh) for telling her

And Allah(swt) knows best.

w/s

Almighty Allah even severly criticized the Prophet for making a Halal into a Haram .

[066:001] O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Edited by union

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I don't think anyone is free from erring (Yes sure, at the time of revelation or passing on a law, awareness is at its full that's why there would not be any errors there, and to further this, the prophet s.a.w never spoke of himself, only what Allah s.w.t commanded him)

Rather I would re-define infallibility as free of sinning which is a more plausible understanding of it.

that's my limited understanding of it so far, sorry if i've got it wrong or I have a flaw in my understanding

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Here is another such narration about the Imam but its not in AL-kafi,its in Al-khisal.

حدثنا أبي رضي الله عنه قال: حدثنا أحمد بن إدريس قال: حدثني محمد بن أحمد، عن موسى بن عمر، عن عبد الله بن جبلة، عن حنان بن سدير قال: دخلت على أبي عبد الله عليه السلام وعلي نعل سوداء فقال: مالك ولبس نعل سوداء! أما علمت أن فيها ثلاث خصال؟ قال: قلت: وما هي جعلت فداك؟ قال: تضعف البصر، وترخي الذكر، وتورث الهم وهي مع ذلك من لباس الجبارين، عليك بلبس نعل صفراء فان فيها ثلاث خصال قال: قلت: وما هي قال: تحد البصر، وتشد الذكر، وتنفي الهم، وهي مع ذلك من لباس الانبياء عليهم السلام

(The compiler of the book narrated) that his father - may God be pleased with him - narrated that Ahmad ibn Idris quoted Muhammad ibn Ahmad, on the authority of Musa ibn Umar, on the authority of Abdullah ibn Jabal'le, on the authority of Han'nan ibn Sadeer, "I went to see Aba Abdullah ( Imam Jafar Al-sadiq) while I was wearing black shoes. He (MGB) asked me, 'Why are you wearing black shoes?' Don't you know that there are three attributes for them?' I said, 'May I be your ransom! No. What are they?' The Imam (MGB) said, 'They will weaken your vision, weaken your sexual drive and make you depressed. Moreover, it is part of the apparel of the oppressors. You should wear yellow shoes, since that would sharpen the vision, improve your sexual drive and reduce your depression. It is part of the Prophets' apparel."

[b]I think i wore black shoes for years regularly and its a part of most schools uniform.***

The hadith can be viewed here.Al-khisal

You've answered your own question. That's the reason why most men today are femine hen packs :!!!: . Read posts#7 and 13:

Edited by Haji 2003

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Almighty Allah even severly criticized the Prophet for making a Halal into a Haram .

[066:001] O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

(bismillah)

(salam)

look at the way the holy prophet (pbuh) is being addressed by his title

is this a rebuke

and

where does it say halal and haram

you guys will go to any length to prove your folks oneup, even on the holy prophet (pbuh)

the inside just keeps coming out from time to time

(wasalam)

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Are you looking for something like this :

Ali's sermon : Nahj Al Balagha , Sermon 215 :

“……….Do not evade me as the people of passion are (to be) evaded, do not meet me with flattery and do not think that I shall take it ill if a true thing is said to me, because the person who feels disgusted when truth is said to him or a just matter is placed before him would find it more difficult to act upon them. Therefore, do not abstain from saying a truth or pointing out a matter of justice because I do not regard myself above erring . I do not escape erring in my actions but that Allah helps me in matters in which He is more powerful than I. Certainly, I and you are slaves owned by Allah, other than Whom there is no Lord except Him. He owns our selves which we do not own. He took us from where we were towards what means prosperity to us. He altered our straying into guidance and gave us intelligence after blindness.”

http://www.nahjulbal....php?Sermon=215

Almighty Allah even severly criticized the Prophet for making a Halal into a Haram .

[066:001] O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The authenticity of that quote has not been proven yet. Nahj al-Balaghah is NOT Sahih Nahj al-Balaghah. In any case, again, the matn is defective, and so is the whole quote.

You need to learn a bit more about the Shiite Hadithology.

Atleast you should add your ulema views as a support. I wanna see how many ulema's said matn is ghareeb.

and yes ulema must be grand personality & of earlier times not like ayatullah milani said etc.]

What more do you need? I mentioned my Imams (as). They are superior to whichever "ulema" you have in mind!

I guess you need to educate yourself a bit about Shiite Hadithology through these articles:

Tahrif: Trapping Efendi al-Nasibi in His Own Cage!!!

Is It True That the Prophet Musa Ran NAKED in the Shi'a Sources?!

Edited by Saved

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(bismillah)

(salam)

look at the way the holy prophet (pbuh) is being addressed by his title

is this a rebuke

and

where does it say halal and haram

you guys will go to any length to prove your folks oneup, even on the holy prophet (pbuh)

the inside just keeps coming out from time to time

(wasalam)

íÇÇíåÇ ÇáäÈí áã ÊÍÑã ãÇÇÍá Çááå áß ÊÈÊÛí ãÑÖÇÉ ÇÒæÇÌß æÇááå ÛÝæÑ ÑÍíã

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íÇÇíåÇ ÇáäÈí áã ÊÍÑã ãÇÇÍá Çááå áß ÊÈÊÛí ãÑÖÇÉ ÇÒæÇÌß æÇááå ÛÝæÑ ÑÍíã

Even according to the Sunni sources, it was a personal matter and NOT a Shari'i matter! But you have deliberately twisted things to make the Prophet (pbuh) look bad.

One of the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) supposedly complained to him that the honey he drank smelled bad. Based on the false complaint, the Prophet (pbuh) promised not to take honey again (in order to avoid the bad smell).

Although it was permissible for him to drink honey, he forbade it for himself based upon the false information he received from one of his wives.

We all do things like this. Is lizard halal for Sunni Muslims? The answer is yes. But then, I personally know of many Sunnis who will never eat lizards.

It was a personal matter once again, and the matter is not as you have portrayed.

THE PROPHET (pbuh) DID NOT CHANGE THE SHARI'AH!

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The authenticity of that quote has not been proven yet. Nahj al-Balaghah is NOT Sahih Nahj al-Balaghah. In any case, again, the matn is defective, and so is the whole quote.

You need to learn a bit more about the Shiite Hadithology.

The OP asked for any evidence authentic or non-authentic .

Do Shia ever possess any authentic Hadith literature at all ? When ‘the cat let out of the bag’ , Shia excuse the matn is defective . Nothing new about that .

Even according to the Sunni sources, it was a personal matter and NOT a Shari'i matter! But you have deliberately twisted things to make the Prophet (pbuh) look bad.

One of the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) supposedly complained to him that the honey he drank smelled bad. Based on the false complaint, the Prophet (pbuh) promised not to take honey again (in order to avoid the bad smell).

Although it was permissible for him to drink honey, he forbade it for himself based upon the false information he received from one of his wives.

We all do things like this. Is lizard halal for Sunni Muslims? The answer is yes. But then, I personally know of many Sunnis who will never eat lizards.

It was a personal matter once again, and the matter is not as you have portrayed.

THE PROPHET (pbuh) DID NOT CHANGE THE SHARI'AH!

OMG ! You are an axe to the root of Immamah doctrine . Anyway thank you for admitting the plane truth that Prophet Muhammad was fallible human , as per u at least in his personal life .

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The OP asked for any evidence authentic or non-authentic .

Do Shia ever possess any authentic Hadith literature at all ? When ‘the cat let out of the bag’ , Shia excuse the matn is defective . Nothing new about that .

Actually, the OP demanded only for "authentic" reports. Well, in Shiite Hadithology, the matn of the Hadith is also very important. In fact, our Imams (as) stressed most on it. So, you cannot blame me for following my Imams (as).

Again, you have never let anything out of the bag! On the issue of infallibility, we have hundreds of Hadiths, including mutawatir ones like Hadith al-Thaqalayn, attest to the absolute infallibility of the Ahl al-Bayt (as). We also have the Verse of Purification! So, why do you guys not see those overwhelming proofs, but instead opt for the shadh, odd reports?

Unfortunately for you guys, we do not accept odd reports. You can only have let the cat out if you had relied upon the mutawatir reports. But then, you will never succeed.

OMG ! You are an axe to the root of Immamah doctrine . Anyway thank you for admitting the plane truth that Prophet Muhammad was fallible human , as per u at least in his personal life .

Do you have a comprehension problem? I was telling you that even "according to SUNNI sources", your accusation that the Prophet (pbuh) changed the Shari'ah does not stand. I was only "narrating" the Sunni narratives I once read.

It was for YOU, and NOT for me.

I didn't admit anything.

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Actually, the OP demanded only for "authentic" reports. Well, in Shiite Hadithology, the matn of the Hadith is also very important. In fact, our Imams (as) stressed most on it. So, you cannot blame me for following my Imams (as).

Again, you have never let anything out of the bag! On the issue of infallibility, we have hundreds of Hadiths, including mutawatir ones like Hadith al-Thaqalayn, attest to the absolute infallibility of the Ahl al-Bayt (as). We also have the Verse of Purification! So, why do you guys not see those overwhelming proofs, but instead opt for the shadh, odd reports?

Unfortunately for you guys, we do not accept odd reports. You can only have let the cat out if you had relied upon the mutawatir reports. But then, you will never succeed.

So you can find Ahadith which pertain fallible and infallible nature of your Imams . Now you want us forget the prior and admit the second . Hilarious indeed ! What about the mistake of the Prophet mentioned in Kafi and graded as authentic . See Haidar al Karrar’s post # 03.

Do you have a comprehension problem? I was telling you that even "according to SUNNI sources", your accusation that the Prophet (pbuh) changed the Shari'ah does not stand. I was only "narrating" the Sunni narratives I once read.

It was for YOU, and NOT for me.

I didn't admit anything.

Did you sell your brain to the Sunni ? :(

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tatheer doesnt makes anyone infallible... this verse is not a proof for infalibility.. this is why none of the shia imams used this verse to prove their infallibility... nor did the great shia scholars like sheikh sadooq etc who understood quran much better than the present day ghulats believed in complete infallibility of imams or prophet(Saw)... INFACT HE WENT AHEAD TO DECLARE THEM GHULATS WHO DENY THIS FACT.. so i see from where those people who are claiming that the matn is weak bla bla, coming from.

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From Misbahal Shariah, Imam (as) says he forgot the need he was asking for....:

I called on Allah once and He answered me. I forgot the need because of the fact that when He answers a supplication, His bestowal is far greater and more sublime than what the bondsman desires from Him, even if it be the Garden and its eternal blessings. This is understood only by lovers who act, gnostics, the elite and the select of Allah.

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The OP asked for any evidence authentic or non-authentic .

Do Shia ever possess any authentic Hadith literature at all ? When ‘the cat let out of the bag’ , Shia excuse the matn is defective . Nothing new about that . .

Are you going to be inconsistent here, I will ask you for a clear cut answer.

Do Sunnis reject an odd matn which is accompanied with a strong sanad if it contradicts a whole mass of others?

We will see if you stand up to your strawman attack.

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tatheer doesnt makes anyone infallible... this verse is not a proof for infalibility.. this is why none of the shia imams used this verse to prove their infallibility... nor did the great shia scholars like sheikh sadooq etc who understood quran much better than the present day ghulats believed in complete infallibility of imams or prophet(Saw)... INFACT HE WENT AHEAD TO DECLARE THEM GHULATS WHO DENY THIS FACT.. so i see from where those people who are claiming that the matn is weak bla bla, coming from.

Listen sunshine! If you think that Ayath-e-Mubahila and the incident of Mubahila plus Ayath-e-Tatheer and the incident of the blanket does not pure anyone, make anybody infallible [Masoom] then that is absolute denial of Allah's words, will and desire. If you just want to close your eyes and reject reality and facts point blank then there is no need for anybody to convince you. Allah clearly says [summun-Bukmun-Umyun-Fahum-La-Yarjeoon]. Allah also says [Fe-Kolubehim-Marazun-Fazada-Homullaho-Maraza]. So sunshine! Nobody can help you apart from yourself. Good luck with your blind faith.

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Are you going to be inconsistent here, I will ask you for a clear cut answer.

Do Sunnis reject an odd matn which is accompanied with a strong sanad if it contradicts a whole mass of others?

We will see if you stand up to your strawman attack.

I am not a Sunni , hence better find a Sunni to ask this question . The best that I can say is Matn is a relative thing . To someone a Matn could be odd whereas the same matn is flawless to others . The example , we have already discussed . To Fanatic Shia the matn pertains the fallible nature of their Imams is odd whereas to sane people it is okay . Specially when there is at least a Shahih Shia Hadith about the mistake of the Prophet can be found . The sane people can’t even imagine that the Imams ranked higher than Prophet Muhammad himself , I don’t know what the lunatic ones think.

Edited by union

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Listen sunshine! If you think that Ayath-e-Mubahila and the incident of Mubahila plus Ayath-e-Tatheer and the incident of the blanket does not pure anyone, make anybody infallible [Masoom] then that is absolute denial of Allah's words, will and desire. If you just want to close your eyes and reject reality and facts point blank then there is no need for anybody to convince you. Allah clearly says [summun-Bukmun-Umyun-Fahum-La-Yarjeoon]. Allah also says [Fe-Kolubehim-Marazun-Fazada-Homullaho-Maraza]. So sunshine! Nobody can help you apart from yourself. Good luck with your blind faith.

moonshine, unfortunately you are born many centuries later, you should have taken birth during the time of shiekh sadooq, so that you could have explained him all what you had in your mind... because he being master of your scholars didnt understood the quranic verse the way you do..

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Sunshine of moonshine ! Are you talking about the following work of Sheikh Sudooq :

[193]

æÇåÇÈ (1) ãÇÚÒ æÇåÇÈ ßÈÔ ÝíåãÇ ÌãíÚ ÇáÚáæã ÍÊì ÇÑÔ ÇáÎÏÔ æÍÊì ÇáÌáÏå æäÕÝ ÇáÌáÏå æíßæä ÚäÏå ãÕÍÝ ÝÇØãå ÚáíåÇ ÇáÓáÇã. 2 - æÝí ÍÏíË ÂÎÑ: Çä ÇáÇãÇã ãÄíÏ ÈÑæÍ ÇáÞÏÓ æÈíäå æÈíä Çááå ÚãæÏ ãä äæÑ íÑì Ýíå ÇÚãÇá ÇáÚÈÇÏ æßáãÇ ÇÍÊÇÌ Åáíå áÏáÇáå ÇØáÚ Úáíå æíÈÓØå ÝíÚáã æíÞÈÖ Úäå ÝáÇ íÚáã æÇáÇãÇã íæáÏ æíáÏ æíÕÍ æíãÑÖ æíÇßá æíÔÑÈ æíÈæá æíÊÛæØ æíäßÍ æíäÇã æíäÓì æíÓåæ æíÝÑÍ æíÍÒä æíÖÍß æíÈßì æíÍíì æíãæÊ æíÞÈÑ æíÒÇÑ æíÍÔÑ æíæÞÝ æíÚÑÖ æíÓÃá æíËÇÈ æíßÑã æíÔÝÚ æÏáÇáÊå Ýí ÎÕáÊíä Ýí ÇáÚáã æÇÓÊÌÇÈå ÇáÏÚæå æßá ãÇ ÇÎÈÑ Èå ãä ÇáÍæÇÏË ÇáÊí ÊÍÏË ÞÈá ßæäåÇ ÝÐáß ÈÚåÏ ãÚåæÏ Åáíå ãä ÑÓæá Çááå (Õ) ÊæÇÑËå æÚä ÂÈÇÆå Úäå Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã æíßæä Ðáß ããÇ ÚåÏ Åáíå ÌÈÑÆíá Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ãä ÚáÇã ÇáÛíæÈ ÚÒ æÌá æÌãíÚ ÇáÇÆãå ÇáÇÍÏ ÚÔÑ ÈÚÏ ÇáäÈí (Õ) ÞÊáæÇ ãäåã ÈÇáÓíÝ æåæ ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä æÇáÍÓíä ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã æÇáÈÇÞæä ÞÊáæÇ ÈÇáÓã ÞÊá ßá æÇÍÏ ãäåã ØÇÛíå (2) ÒãÇäå æÌÑì Ðáß Úáíåã Úáì ÇáÍÞíÞÉ æÇáÕÍå áÇ ßãÇ ÊÞæáå ÇáÛáÇÉ (3) æÇáãÝæÖå (4) áÚäåã Çááå ÝÇäåã íÞæáæä: Çäåã áã íÞÊáæÇ Úáì ÇáÍÞíÞÉ æÇäå ÔÈå ááäÇÓ ÇãÑåã ÝßÐÈæÇ Úáíåã ÛÖÈ Çááå ÝÇäå ãÇ ÔÈå ÃãÑ ÃÍÏ ãä ÇäÈíÇÁ Çááå æÍÌÌå ááäÇÓ ÅáÇ ÃãÑ ÚíÓì Èä ãÑíã Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã æÍÏå áÇäå ÑÝÚ ãä ÇáÃÑÖ ÍíÇ æÞÈÖ ÑæÍå Èíä ÇáÓãÇÁ æÇáÃÑÖ Ëã ÑÝÚ Çáì ÇáÓãÇÁ æÑÏ Úáíå ÑæÍå æÐáß Þæá Çááå ÊÚÇáì: (ÅÐ ÞÇá Çááå íÇ ÚíÓì Çäì ãÊæÝíß æÑÇÝÚß Çáì æãØåÑß) (5) æÞÇá ÚÒ æÌá ÍßÇíå áÞæá ÚíÓì Úáíå

________________________________________

1 - ÇáÇåÇÈ ÈÇáßÓÑ ßßÊÇÈ ÇÈÌáÏ ÇáÐí íÏÈÛ Ãæ áã íÏÈÛ. 2 - Î á (ØÇÛæÊ). 3 - ÇáÛáÇÉ ÌãÚ ÇáÛÇáíÉ: ãä ÇáÝÑÞ ÇáÇÓáÇãíÉ åã ÇáÐíä ÛáæÇ Ýí ÍÞ ÃÆãÊåã æÑÈãÇ ÔÈåæÇ ÇáÇáå ÈÇáÎáÞ æÇáÎáÞ ÈÇáÇáå æÇäãÇ äÔÃÊ ÔÈåÇÊåã ãä ãÐÇåÈ ÇáÍáæáíÉ æãÐÇåÈ ÇáÊäÇÓÎíÉ ãä ßÊÇÈ ÇáÝÑÞ Èíä ÇáÝÑÞ. 4 - ÇáãÝæÖÉ: Þæã ÒÚãæÇ Çä Çááå ÊÚÇáì ÎáÞ ãÍãÏÇ (Õ) Ëã ÝæÖ Åáíå ÎáÞ ÇáÚÇáã æÊÏÈíÑå Ëã ÝæÖ (Õ) ÊÏÈíÑ ÇáÚÇáã Çáì Úáí Èä ÃÈí ØÇáÈ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ÝÑÇÌÚ (Õ 18 æ 153 ãä ßÊÇÈ ÇáÝÑÞ Èíä ÇáÝÑÞ Ø ãÕÑ). 5 - ÓæÑÉ Âá ÚãÑÇä: ÇáÇíÉ 55.

............................... IMAM FORGETS AND DROPS (MAKES MISTAKES) ............................

http://www.yasoob.org/books/htm1/m012/09/no0998.html

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íÇÇíåÇ ÇáäÈí áã ÊÍÑã ãÇÇÍá Çááå áß ÊÈÊÛí ãÑÖÇÉ ÇÒæÇÌß æÇááå ÛÝæÑ ÑÍíã

O! My sweetie love holy prophet (pbuh)

me and the angels are sending down constant salawat upon you and your exalted family just like it was sent upon ibrahim(as) and his exalted family

let the true momins join their lord in this action and be one in this recitation

why do you keep away from something which is not forbidden to have.

only to keep away the false bickering of others

for i know you are khulq ul adheem

even i cannot bear the level that you are facing unnecessary hardship

so now i threaten the ones' who cause you grief

and if they do not behave, i shall then order you to sort them for good

etc etc

(wasalam)

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Sunshine of moonshine ! Are you talking about the following work of Sheikh Sudooq :

............................... IMAM FORGETS AND DROPS (MAKES MISTAKES) ............................

http://www.yasoob.org/books/htm1/m012/09/no0998.html

The last time I checked, Shaykh Saduq (ra) was not on the list of our Twelve Imams (as). His opinions carry weight only if they agree with the Qur'an and Sunnah. Here, he has wrongly, though innocently, defined infallibility. The words of the Verse of Purification, as interpreted by our Imams (as), and the Hadiths of our Imams (as) are the final authority on this matter!

Edited by Saved

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none of the 12imams used ayah tatheer as an evidence for their infallibility , that is why the master of shia scholars shiekh sadooq..didnt understood the verse the way present day shias try to understand, even though he had far superior and better understanding of quran compared to present day shias. that is why he just didnt make a calm opinion but gave a harsh verdict declaring that those who reject those ahadees of sahv of prophet(Saw) are ghulats..

ok "saved" if you dont want to agree what is said then no problem, just tell me one thing.. DID the imams affirm the ahadees regarding shav of prophet(Saw) or rejected them. And what is the ruling on the person who called the Ahlebayt as ghulat(mazallah)

Edited by tees maar khan

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