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Yasoob Al Deen

Imamate In The Quran (evidence)

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Assalamu alaykum wa rahmetu Allahi wa barekato.

I've seen quite a few Imamis by now asking for evidences in the Quran for aspects of the Imamate. I thought I'd post this note I wrote here:

The belief in angels is mentioned numerous times in the Quran. But do people really care about the angels? Do the scholars spend their time studying what little is known about the angels with the greatest attention? If Allah hadn't kept mentioning them, we might have forgotten about them lol. An exaggeration perhaps, but I think you see the point: the number of times something is mentioned is not equal to how important it is.

How many times minimum does something need to be mentioned in the Quran for it to be absolutely true, important, and something that must be followed? Once. I think I'm correct in saying the only time the Quran talks about how you must fast in the month of Ramadhaan is 2:183-187. Yet it is an important thing. Fasting itself may be mentioned repeatedly, but fasting in the month of Ramadhaan isn't.How many times does Imamate need to be mentioned in the Quran for it to be true, important, and necessary to follow? Once.

They ask you for proof of the Imamate. Then let us turn to the Quran first for proof, before we turn to the ahadeeth (narrations) and tareekh (history):

Translation of the Glorious Quran (by Shakir):

[4:59] O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Rasul) and those in authority (Ulil-Amr) from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

The obedience to Rasulullaah ("the Messenger (of God)") is equal to the obedience to Ulil-Amr ("the people of authority") as can be seen by the wording.

"ateeAAoo Allaha waateeAAoo arrasoola waolee al-amri minkum" = "obey the Messenger (Rasul) and those in authority (Ulil-Amr) from among you": Notice how the same "obey" that is used for Rasulullaah is also used for Ulil-Amr. This means that the Ulil-Amr must have the same authority as a leader and commander as the Rasululllaah or they wouldn't have the same level of obedience in this verse.

One of the reasons why we trust Rasulullah and we have to obey him is because his words are not his own; they are the words of God (69:40-47). He receives communications from the Lord Almighty. He is infallible. The same must apply to Ulil-Amr because they must be obeyed without condition. Since the verse equates the obedience to the Prophet to the obedience to the Ulil-Amr, one cannot disobey the Ulil-Amr.

Notice that the verse says "if you quarrel about anything, refer to Allah and the Messenger"; since we cannot disobey the Ulil-Amr, even when we quarrel with Ulil-Amr, they cannot be in the wrong.

So what does the Quran say about quarrelling with them? "refer to Allah and the Messenger". Why? The Ulil-Amr are right, but if a person does not believe in them, he or she refer to Allah and His "postman" - Rasulullaah. Why? Allah and Rasulullaah are the bringers of law and truth. The Ulil-Amr do not have this role. They do not reveal/bring/establish the law and truth. Anyway, since Rasulullaah is equated with Ulil-Amr, disputing with the Ulil-Amr is disputing with Rasulullaah.

But they must be obeyed, just like one obeys Rasulullaah; and they cannot be in the wrong. Thus, they only speak what Allah and Rasulullaah have brought. The Ulil-Amr only say what Allah and Rasulullaah say. This can only be true all the time if Ulil-Amr have all the knowledge of Rasulullaah. Otherwise, if they were asked a question and they were deficient in their knowledge, they would speak from their own opinion, and the verse would no longer be true! What happens if Rasulullaah dies and the Ulil-Amr remain? The Ulil-Amr are still present, and since they only speak what Allah and Ulil-Amr say, they must still be obeyed and followed. Therefore it would be a great wrong to even consider obeying and learning Islam from any other human being when the Ulil-Amr are present! How could we follow any other, regardless of whether they were a sahabi (companion of the Prophet) who was with the Prophet for decades or a scholar who studied for decades, when they, perfect sources, are present?

Look everywhere in the Quran where Allah asks they you to obey; He puts the condition that if they disobey Him, then this is what you do. For example, God tells us to obey our parents; but then He says if they disobey Him, then disobey them. The only obedience in the Quran where Allah does not warn you of disobedience is to Ulil-Amr. This indicates that Allah's opinion of them is that they would never disobey Him; which means they can never go against His commands. By not warning us of any disobedience from them, He is making it clear that they would never be disobedient in the face of the doubt and disbelief (in them) of many.

Why does Allah command us to obey Muhammed, peace and blessings be upon him and his Ahlulbayt? It's because he was chosen as Rasulullaah. Why was he chosen? Because he is the pure and because he is the greatest of men. Obedience to Rasulullah = obedience to Ulil-Amr, so that "waw" ("and") next to the word "Rasulullaah" means that all those qualities apply to Ulil-Amr. Allah has chosen those who are Ulil-Amr for their great qualities and for being the greatest of men.

In one verse, the Ulil-Amr are given nass (designation), authority, isma (infallibility), and ilm (knowledge). Let's give the Ulil-Amr a nickname. How about "Imams"? Oh wait, that sounds suspiciously like the Shia concept of Imamate. Plagiarism perhaps lol? Or maybe the same Author is behind this all.

Do you want Imamate to be clearly written out in clear, simple terms with what the role of Imamate is and the qualities that an Imam will possess? Too bad; it seems the Quran does not work like that. Want an example? Let's look at Salaat. Arguably one of the most important things in the whole religion of Islam. Even though it is mentioned all over the Quran, nowhere do the Majestic Words of the Creator give a passage that acts as a manual to Salaat. Instead in one chapter, we find just one verse that mentions the timings. When it comes to the number of rakaat per Salaat, not even a single verse! In-fact, ar-Rahmaan, subhanahu wa tala, does not give a clear method of how to perform Salaat! But, I thought Salaat was supposed to be important? Of course it is. It's very important. That's why it's mentioned in the Quran, Sunnah, and ahadeeth. Imamate is also a very important concept. It's mentioned a few times in the Quran with different words, such as walaya. But it's mentioned and that's enough.

Úóáöíõø Èúäõ ÅöÈúÑóÇåöíãó Úóäú ãõÍóãóøÏö Èúäö ÚöíÓóì Úóäú íõæäõÓó æó Úóáöíõø Èúäõ ãõÍóãóøÏò Úóäú Óóåúáö Èúäö ÒöíóÇÏò ÃóÈöí ÓóÚöíÏò Úóäú ãõÍóãóøÏö Èúäö ÚöíÓóì Úóäú íõæäõÓó Úóäö ÇÈúäö ãõÓúßóÇäó Úóäú ÃóÈöí ÈóÕöíÑò ÞóÇáó ÓóÃóáúÊõ ÃóÈóÇ ÚóÈúÏö Çááóøåö Ú Úóäú Þóæúáö Çááóøåö ÚóÒóø æó Ìóáóø ÃóØöíÚõæÇ Çááóøåó æó ÃóØöíÚõæÇ ÇáÑóøÓõæáó æó Ãõæáöí ÇáúÃóãúÑö ãöäúßõãú (ÇáäÓÇÁ -: 59 -) ÝóÞóÇáó äóÒóáóÊú Ýöí Úóáöíöø Èúäö ÃóÈöí ØóÇáöÈò æó ÇáúÍóÓóäö æó ÇáúÍõÓóíúäö Ú ÝóÞõáúÊõ áóåõ Åöäóø ÇáäóøÇÓó íóÞõæáõæäó ÝóãóÇ áóåõ áóãú íõÓóãöø ÚóáöíøÇð æó Ãóåúáó ÈóíúÊöåö Ú Ýöí ßöÊóÇÈö Çááóøåö ÚóÒóø æó Ìóáóø ÞóÇáó ÝóÞóÇáó ÞõæáõæÇ áóåõãú Åöäóø ÑóÓõæáó Çááóøåö Õ äóÒóáóÊú Úóáóíúåö ÇáÕóøáóÇÉõ æó áóãú íõÓóãöø Çááóøåõ áóåõãú ËóáóÇËÇð æó áóÇ ÃóÑúÈóÚÇð ÍóÊóøì ßóÇäó ÑóÓõæáõ Çááóøåö Õ åõæó ÇáóøÐöí ÝóÓóøÑó Ðóáößó áóåõãú æó äóÒóáóÊú Úóáóíúåö ÇáÒóøßóÇÉõ æó áóãú íõÓóãöø áóåõãú ãöäú ßõáöø ÃóÑúÈóÚöíäó ÏöÑúåóãÇð ÏöÑúåóãñ ÍóÊóøì ßóÇäó ÑóÓõæáõ Çááóøåö Õ åõæó ÇáóøÐöí ÝóÓóøÑó Ðóáößó áóåõãú æó äóÒóáó ÇáúÍóÌõø Ýóáóãú íóÞõáú áóåõãú ØõæÝõæÇ ÃõÓúÈõæÚÇð ÍóÊóøì ßóÇäó ÑóÓõæáõ Çááóøåö …..

"I asked Abu 'AbdAllaah (as-Sadiq) (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) about the words of Allaah (ÚóÒóø æó Ìóáóø): 'Believers, obey Allah, His Messenger, and your leaders (who possess Divine Authority). . . .' (4:59) "The Imam said, 'This was sent from the heavens about `Ali ibn Abi Taalib, Al-Hasan and Al-Hussain (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã).' I then said, 'People say, "Why did He not specify Ali and his family by their names in the Book of Allaah (ÚóÒóø æó Ìóáóø)?' "The Imam said, 'Say to them, "The command for prayer came to the Messenger of Allah but He has not specified (the number of the Rak'ats) for them as being three or four. It, in fact, was the Messenger of Allah who explained to them this matter. The command for Zakat (a form of income tax) came to the Messenger of Allah and there was no specific taxable number such as one Dirham on every forty Dirham. It was the Messenger of Allah who explained it for them. The command for Hajj came to the Messenger of Allah. It did not say walk seven times around the Ka'ba. It was the Messenger of Allah who explained it for them...."

Source: al-Kulayni in his al-Kafi, volume 1, pages 286–288, hadeeth #1

Grading: al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH (authentic) in his Mir'aat Al-`Uqool, volume 3, page 213

Some thoughts to conclude

Now before anyone replies saying "Tabatabaa'ee's arguments/commentary are weak/untrue", please think about why they are weak. I've seen quite a few people say this, yet they provided no reason as to why they think this. There are Sunni scholars who have agreed with various aspects of what has been written above. One example is ar-Razi who agreed that 4:59 makes Ulil-Amr infallible; (however he tried to make it out that the Ulil-Amr are the whole Ummah...which for a variety of reasons is a poor explanation. A simple example: the verse says the "those in authority _amongst you_" (ulil-amri minkum). I.e. there are certain people in the Ummah who are so-and-so. Not the whole Ummah. Razi's explanation contradicts the wording of the verse).

On another subject, if anyone were to bring something, such as a set of ahadeeth, which claim that the Ulil-Amr taught or behaved differently to the Prophet then either the Quran is wrong for equating the Prophet and Ulil-Amr in many ways, or this set of ahadeeth is. The answer is obvious. And vice versa. It does not matter how "authentic" a set of ahadeeth may be according to the science of rijaal or a set of scholars; if it contradicts the Quran, it is false. For example, if the Ulil-Amr say you cannot wipe on leather socks, and a set of ahadeeth say that various people said you can, then the latter is false because it has disagreed with the Ulil-Amr.

Allahumma salle alah Muhammedin wa Aale Muhammed.

ý"All the praises and thanks be to Allah, Who has guided us to this, never could we have found guidance, were it not that Allah had guided us!" | Quran, 007:043.

This note is mostly based on a lecture delivered by Ammar Nakshawani

Those interested in reading more on this should refer to the scholar Tabatabai's commentary on this verse (4:59) in his tafseer of the Quran called 'al-Mizan'.

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Part of a post from my blog, inshallah it will be a usefull addition to this thread:

Imamate in the Holy Qur’an

Here I would like to address some questions we need to answer to arrive at a clear and undisputable conclusion on the issue of Imamate in the Quran:

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What is meant by khilafah in the Qur’an? What are its conditions and limitations? What are the responsibilities of the khalifah?

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Is Imamate continuous or broken (interrupted)?

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If we prove that it is continuous, is it limited to a certain number of individuals or not?

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If we prove that it is limited, how many Imams are there, and who are they? Have they been pointed out by the Holy Prophet (saawa)?

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If the last of the Imams has been identified, is he alive or will be born at some point in the future?

If one studies the history of the prophets of God, he will find that they were from the same family. Allah, to whom belongs Might and Majesty, said:

æóÅöÐö ÇÈúÊóáóìٰ ÅöÈúÑóÇåöíãó ÑóÈøõåõ ÈößóáöãóÇÊò ÝóÃóÊóãøóåõäøó ۖ ÞóÇáó Åöäöøí ÌóÇÚöáõßó áöáäøóÇÓö ÅöãóÇãðÇ ۖ ÞóÇáó æóãöä ÐõÑöøíøóÊöí ۖ ÞóÇáó áóÇ íóäóÇáõ ÚóåúÏöí ÇáÙøóÇáöãöíäó

‘And when Abraham was tested by his Lord with certain commands and he fulfilled them. Then He said: Lo! I appoint you (Abraham) an Imam for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be Imam)? He said: My Covenant does not reach the wrong-doers (among them).’ (Quran 2:124)

Firstly, we learn from this verse that the Imamate is a matter that should decided by God Almighty, because in the verse of khilafah,

æóÅöÐú ÞóÇáó ÑóÈøõßó áöáúãóáóÇÆößóÉö Åöäöøí ÌóÇÚöáñ Ýöí ÇáúÃóÑúÖö ÎóáöíÝóÉð

‘And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth’ (Quran 2:30)

This verse shows that grammatically the khliafah is present at all times, since the verb ja’il (I am placing) is in present tense and indicates continuity, and this is confirmed by big scholars of tafsir Al Razi and Al Alousi. And when this verb is compared to other instances in the Qur’an, we find that it relates to Allah’s sunnah (swt), or divine decree, which means it is an existential act of God and cannot be changed or modified. Allah (swt) says ‘I am about to place a viceroy..’ and in the verse of Ibrahim above (2:124), He also says (I appoint you Imam …), therefore the Abrahamic Imamate is a divine decree and Allah’s decision, just as Prophethood is chosen by God Almighty, as in the verse:

ÇááøóÜåõ ÃóÚúáóãõ ÍóíúËõ íóÌúÚóáõ ÑöÓóÇáóÊóåõ

‘Allah knoweth best with whom to place His message.’ (Quran 6:124)

Therefore, there is no room in this Abrahamic Imamate for consultation or election or the phrase ‘extend your hand so that I can pledge allegiance’.

In another verse we find that the khilafah according to the Quran is not meant to be given to any individual in the general population, but is meant for a select few who have been given special divine knowledge (see also Quran 7:35):

åõæó ÇáøóÐöí ÌóÚóáóßõãú ÎóáóÇÆöÝó Ýöí ÇáúÃóÑúÖö

‘He it is Who hath made you regents in the earth.’ (Quran 35:39)

Imamate given to Ibrahim (as) after Prophethood

Some scholars have tried to suggest that this status given to Ibrahim (as) is not Imamate but something else. What it is not, is Prophethood, since he was already given prophethood and Allah (swt) was already communicating with him. Also, in Quran 2:124, the verse shows that Ibrahim (as) has requested the Imamate for his progeny, which Allah (swt) didn’t grant him (the progeny) until a later stage in his life when he became an old man (see also Ibrahim:39, Hud:72 and Hijr:54). If this divine order of Imamate that was given to Ibrahim was at the beginning of his life before having been blessed with a progeny, he should have said ‘and of my progeny, if you bless me with a progeny?’, and he would be asking Allah (swt) for something he had no knowledge of.

This verse also indicates that this new status of Imamate was granted to Prophet Ibrahim (as) after the most severe and difficult test of sacrificing his son Isma’il (Quran 37:102-111). Therefore, it would not make sense for Prophet Ibrahim (as) to go through the most difficult tests and say this is to grant him Prophethood. This is confirmed by several famous and authentic tafsir and narrations, like Tafseer Al Kabir of Al Razi, Vol.4, pg42:

‘On the words in the aya ‘and of my progeny..’, he (Ibrahim) requested Imamate for his progeny mentioned by Allah (swt), so the verse would mean ‘Imamate would not reach the wrong-doers..’, and that on the surface the aya proves that this Imamate needs to be infallible overtly and covertly. We say: the Shi’a use this aya as proof for the infallibility of their Imams overtly and covertly. And we say: This is what the aya indicates, yet we do not take the covert infallibility into consideration, and the overt justice remains intact.’

Now, the last sentence is very strange, considering he agrees that the aya indicates the overt and covert characteristic of infallibility of the Imamate, yet he does not give a reason why he left out the covert aspect of it and settled with the overt justice! (Their testimony will be recorded and they will be questioned 43:19)

And in Tafsir of Al Tabari, Jami’ Al Bayan, Vol.2, pg 511, the scholar interprets the Imamate to be ‘a role model’:

‘And the scholars of interpretation differed … and others said the meaning of the Covenant is the covenant of Imamate, so the interpretation of the verse would be ‘I do not make of your children an unjust Imam to be a role model for my slaves’ , because it interpreted the ruler of emulation has been said here this Abtalna this possibility, this is the second resource.

This interpretation of the verse is not in line with the actual events and situation, due to the obvious fact that the father of Monotheism and Sheikh of the Prophets was already a prophet to his people, and someone of his stature to request the status of role model after being tested with such calamities is inconceivable and illogical.

The third reference is to be found in the tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Vol.1, commenting on the same verse he says:

‘The narration from Mujahid: who said, (on the verse) ‘My Covenant does not reach the wrong-doers (among them)’ means there cannot be an unjust Imam.’

So all of the scholars interpreted the Covenant as an Imamate. Therefore, if the Imamate is a covenant between the Imam and God, could it be reached by election and the Shura Council?

Abrahamic Imamate is Infallible

Most scholars agree that this Imamate in the Quran has to be infallible. The first reference to this can be found in Fakhr Al Razi’s Tafsir Al Kabir, Vol.4, pg 39, he says: ‘The aya indicates the infallibilityof prophets..’ , therefore irrespective of whether he interprets the ‘covenant’ to mean Imamate or Prophethood, he confirms that the aya indicates the infallibility of it. In the same tafsir of Al Razi, Vol.3, pg 10, where he is commenting on the verse 35 of Al Baqarah: ‘It is incumbent on the people to follow the Imam (in all aspects of religion and politics), and if he committed a mistake (or sin), they would need to follow him regardless, and that would be contradicting.’

Al Razi is saying that Allah (swt) ordered people to follow Ibrahim (as), and if he committed a sin, regardless how small, should they follow him or not? They cannot! Therefore, how can Allah (swt) order them to follow someone and forbid them at the same time? Then we have to conclude that this Imamate has to be infallible to avoid any contradiction in the aya.

Among those who also stated the infallibility, is Al Baydhawi in his tafsir ‘Anwar Al Tanzil wa Asrar Al Ta’weel’, known as Tafsir of Baydhawi, on the page referring to verse 124 of Al Baqarah, he says: ‘And this is proof of the infallibility of the great Prophets..’. And also Al Alousi in his ‘Rouh Al Ma’ani’ has indicated the same meaning.

Continuity of the Abarahamic Imamate

As shown above in verses 30 and 124 of Al Baqarah, that Ibrahim (as) requested the Imamate to continue through his progeny, which Allah (swt) agreed to on the condition that the unjust have no part in it, just as it is clearly stated in these verses:

æóÊóÑóßúäóÇ Úóáóíúåö Ýöí ÇáúÂÎöÑöíäó ﴿١٠٨﴾ ÓóáóÇãñ Úóáóìٰ ÅöÈúÑóÇåöíãó ﴿١٠٩﴾ ßóÐóٰáößó äóÌúÒöí ÇáúãõÍúÓöäöíäó ﴿١١٠﴾ Åöäøóåõ ãöäú ÚöÈóÇÏöäóÇ ÇáúãõÄúãöäöíäó ﴿١١١﴾ æóÈóÔøóÑúäóÇåõ ÈöÅöÓúÍóÇÞó äóÈöíøðÇ ãöøäó ÇáÕøóÇáöÍöíäó ﴿١١٢﴾ æóÈóÇÑóßúäóÇ Úóáóíúåö æóÚóáóìٰ ÅöÓúÍóÇÞó ۚ æóãöä ÐõÑöøíøóÊöåöãóÇ ãõÍúÓöäñ æóÙóÇáöãñ áöøäóÝúÓöåö ãõÈöíäñ

‘And We left for him among the later folk (the salutation): (108) Peace be unto Abraham! (109) Thus do We reward the good. (110) Lo! he is one of Our believing slaves. (111) And we gave him tidings of the birth of Isaac, a prophet of the righteous. (112) And We blessed him and Isaac. And of their seed are some who do good, and some who plainly wrong themselves.’ (Quran 37:108-113)

Therefore, in Ibrahim’s progeny there exist the righteous and the those who plainly wrong themselves, and the above aya in Al Baqarah states that only the righteous can inherit the Imamate, so the Imamate has continued through the righteous progeny oh Ibrahim (as).

The question arises then: has the progeny of Ibrahim (as) been discontinued? No, it continued to our Holy Prophet Muhammad (sawaa). And did the Holy Prophet have a progeny of his own? Yes, he most certainly did, and it is continuous until the last day. So the Abrahamic Imamate has continued through the righteous and infallible progeny of Muhammad (sawaa), who are chosen by Allah (swt) directly.

Imamate in the School of Ahlul Bayt (as)

So from the above we see that even the Holy Quran contains a detailed view of Imamate, a view that is accurate and detailed, including the conditions stipulated by said

æóÌóÚóáúäóÇåõãú ÃóÆöãøóÉð íóåúÏõæäó ÈöÃóãúÑöäóÇ æóÃóæúÍóíúäóÇ Åöáóíúåöãú ÝöÚúáó ÇáúÎóíúÑóÇÊö æóÅöÞóÇãó ÇáÕøóáóÇÉö æóÅöíÊóÇÁó ÇáÒøóßóÇÉö ۖ æóßóÇäõæÇ áóäóÇ ÚóÇÈöÏöíäó

‘And We made them chiefs who guide by Our command, and We inspired in them the doing of good deeds and the right establishment of worship and the giving of alms, and they were worshippers of Us (alone).’ (Quran 21:73)

Some might argue that this verse is related to the Bani Isra’il. Yes it, this is the Abrahamic Imamate, where the conditions are continuing. These are the conditions and constraints. The Quran has given a complete system on the Imamate. Therefore, we as the followers of the Ahlul Bayt of Muhammad (sawaa), referred back to the Quran and investigated and contemplated on its verses. We then put these verses against the correct actions and narrations of our Prophet Muhammad (sawaa) (Nor doth he speak of (his own) desire. It is naught save an inspiration that is inspired, Quran 53:3-4) and (nd whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it), Quran 59:7), and asked:

‘Oh Prophet of Allah (swt), we read in the Holy Quran that the Imamate exists and that it is infallible and continuous, and when you are present you are the Imam and Imam of all Imams, then who are the Imams after you?’ He responds with the famous hadith: ‘The Imams after me are 12.’ So they are limited to a certain group, a group that succeeds the Holy Prophet (sawaa), not just any person or leader that comes along, the likes of Mu’awiyah and Yazid and Adbulmalik ibn Marwan. Is it logical that these kind of people succeed in the footsteps of the Prophet of Allah (sawaa)??

The narrations where the Holy Prophet indicated that his successors would be twelve, exceed 270 narrations from both schools of thought, or even more. Here are some examples:

In Sahih al-Bukhari (Arabic-English version), the tradition is as follows:

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.329

Narrated Jabir Ibn Samura: I heard the Prophet saying, "There will be twelve commanders (Amir)." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, the Prophet added, "All of them will be from Quraish."

In Musnad Ahmad, the tradition is as follows:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "There shall be twelve Caliphs for this community, all of them from Quraish."

Reference: Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v5, p106

In Sahih Muslim, the traditions are as follows:

Narrated Jabir Ibn Samura: The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs." He then whispered a sentence. I asked my father what the Prophet said. He said, the Prophet added: "All of them will be from Quraish."

Sunni references:

Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1452, Tradition #5

Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraish and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraish), v3, p1009, Tradition #4477

Again from Sahih Muslim:

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men."

Sunni references:

Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1453, Tradition #6

Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraish and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraish), v3, p1010, Tradition #4478

Also: The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Islam will continue to be triumphant until there have been twelve Caliphs."

Sunni references:

Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1453, Tradition #7

Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraish and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraish), v3, p1010, Tradition #4480

Again: The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraish."

Sunni references:

Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1453, Tradition #10

Sahih Muslim, English version, Chapter DCCLIV (titled: The People are subservient to the Quraish and the Caliphate is the Right of the Quraish), v3, p1010, Tradition #4483

More Sunni references of similar traditions:

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v4, p501

Sunan Abu Dawud, v2, p421 (three traditions). Others such as al-Tiyalasi, Ibn al-Athir, etc.

And many more. Bear in mind that the writers and collectors of hadith like Bukhari were contemporaries of some of the Imams (as), and therefore we cannot be accused of placing these hadiths ourselves after the prophetic traditions became an actual fact.

So then we asked him, ‘O Messenger of Allah, what is their number, said: ‘Twelve’. We asked, ‘O Messenger of God, what is their parentage? He said: ‘They are of my offspring and progeny,’ because the Imamate only exists in the descendants of Ibrahim (as), it is impossible to be outside of his progeny, just as the Quran stated.

Then we asked the Messenger of Allah: ‘O Messenger of Allah your progeny are plenty, are all of them included? He said: ‘No, the progeny of my household,’ ‘But O Messenger of God we may on who it is, can you make it clearer for us?’ He then put a mantle on them, as it is in Sahih Muslim, and said: ‘By Allah, those are of my family (ahlul bayt).’

And further more he made them the equal of the Quran, "(‘Verily, I leave behind two precious things amongst you: the Book of Allah and my ahl al­bayt. Verily, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the side of the Pond. , which further proves their infallibility. [2]

—————————————————————————————————

[1] See Shi’ite Encyclopedia at al-islam.org

[2] See http://www.al-islam.org/thaqalayn/nontl/index.HTM for a detailed study of this hadith

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Salaam Alaykum, thanks for your post, I was remembering that exact lecture while reading your post, its a great refreshment!

I have one request, do we have any ahadeeth of the Imams categorically claiming that they are the "ulil amr minkum"?

Wa alaykum assalam wa rahmetu Allahi wa barekato.

Good question. I searched in al-Kafi by thiqat al-Islam al-Kulayni to find ahadeeth where the "Ulil-Amr" were mentioned. These are my 8 results:

al-Kulayni's al-Kafi, volume 1, kitab at-Tahweed, chapter 3, hadeeth 1

Grading: al-Majlisi's Miraat al-Uqool, volume 1, page 294, "majhool"

al-Kulayni's al-Kafi, volume 1, kitab al-Hujjah, chapter 8, hadeeth #7

Grading: al-Majlisi's Miraat al-Uqool, volume 2, page 326, "hasan ka'l saheeh"

al-Kulayni's al-Kafi, volume 1, kitab al-Hujjah, chapter 8, hadeeth #12

Grading: al-Majlisi's Miraat al-Uqool, volume 2, page 333, "ãÌåæá¡ Èá ÕÍíÍ ÅÐ ÇáÙÇåÑ Ãä ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÝÖíá åæ ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÞÇÓã Èä ÇáÝÖíá¡ ÝÖãíÑ ÓÃáÊå ÑÇÌÚ Åáì ÇáÑÖÇ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã¡ æ Þíá: ÑÇÌÚ Åáì ÇáÕÇÏÞ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã æ åæ ÈÚíÏ¡ æ Þíá: Åáì ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÝÖíá Ýíßæä ßáÇã íæäÓ æ åæ ÃÈÚÏ.

" (majhool; but saheeh if...)

al-Kulayni's al-Kafi, volume 1, kitab al-Hujjah, chapter 8, hadeeth #16

Grading: al-Majlisi's Miraat al-Uqool, volume 2, page 336, "ÖÚíÝ¡ æ ÞÏ ãÑ Úä ÇáÍÓíä ÈÇÎÊáÇÝ Ýí æÓØ ÇáÓäÏ."

(dha'eef)

Question to those more knowledgable: is al-Majlisi making this hadeeth weak because of al-Husayn ibn abu al-'Ala' (ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÃÈí ÇáÚáÇÁ) when he grades ch.7 h.7 (see above) as hasan ka'l saheeh with an isnaad with him present?

al-Kulayni's al-Kafi, volume 1, kitab al-Hujjah, chapter 16, hadeeth #1

Grading: al-Majlisi's Miraat al-Uqool, volume 2, page 407, "dha'eef"

al-Kulayni's al-Kafi, volume 1, kitab al-Hujjah, chapter 59, hadeeth #1

Grading: al-Majlisi's Miraat al-Uqool, volume 3, page 179, "dha'eef alah mashoor"

al-Kulayni's al-Kafi, volume 1, kitab al-Hujjah, chapter 64, hadeeth #1

Grading: al-Majlisi's Miraat al-Uqool, volume 3, page 213, "ÕÍíÍ ÈÓäÏíå æ ÞÏ ãÑ ÇáßáÇã Ýí Ãæáí ÇáÃãÑ Ýí ÈÇÈ Ãä ÇáÃÆãÉ Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã æáÇÉ ÇáÃãÑ æ Ýí ÈÇÈ ÝÑÖ ØÇÚÉ ÇáÃÆãÉ Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã¡ æ áÚá ÇáÊÎÕíÕ ÈÇáËáÇËÉ áßæäåã ãæÌæÏíä ÚäÏ äÒæá ÇáÂíÉ."

(saheeh)

Note: this the hadeeth I quoted in my first post in this topic

al-Kulayni's al-Kafi, volume 1, kitab al-Hujjah, chapter 65, hadeeth #3

Grading: al-Majlisi's Miraat al-Uqool, volume 3, page 270, "dha'eef alah mashoor"

(note: in Miraat al-Uqool, al-Majlisi combines this chapter of al-Kafi with the one previously, so this was the 10th hadeeth in the combined chapter for him)

Here are the two ahadeeth that al-Majlisi graded as strong in the authenticity based on the isnaad:

al-Kulayni's al-Kafi, volume 1, kitab al-Hujjah, chapter 8, hadeeth #7

Ahmad ibn Muhammad has narrated from Ali ibn al-Hakam from al-Husayn bin abu al-‘Ala’ who has said the following:

“Once I mentioned to Imam Abu 'AbdAllah (as-Sadiq), aleyhis salam, our expression about the successors (of the prophets, aleyhum assalam) ‘Obedience to them is obligatory’, He (the Imam), aleyhis salam, said, ‘It is very true; they are the people about whom Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has said, “Believers, obey Allah, His Messenger, and your ’Ulu al-’Amr (Leaders who possess Divine Authority). . . .” (4:59) It is they about whom Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has also said, ‘Only Allah, His Messenger and the true believers who are steadfast in prayer and pay alms, while they kneel during prayer, are your guardians.’” (5:55)

al-Kulayni's al-Kafi, volume 1, kitab al-Hujjah, chapter 64, hadeeth #1

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Yunus and Ali ibn Muhammad from Sahl ibn Ziyad, abu Sa‘id from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Yunus from ibn Muskan from abu Basir who has said the following:

“I asked Abu 'AbdAllah (as-Sadiq), aleyhis salam, about the words of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High: ‘Believers, obey Allah, His Messenger, and your leaders (who possess Divine Authority). . . .’ (4:59) “The Imam said, ‘This was sent from the heavens about Ali ibn abu Talib, al-Hassan and al-Husayn, aleyhum assalam.’ I then said, ‘People say, “Why did He not specify Ali and his family by their names in the Book of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High?’ “The Imam said, ‘Say to them, “The command for prayer came to the Messenger of Allah but He has not specified (the number of the Rak‘ats) for them as being three or four. It, in fact, was the Messenger of Allah who explained to them this matter. The command for Zakat (a form of income tax) came to the Messenger of Allah and there was no specific taxable number such as one Dirham on every forty Dirham. It was the Messenger of Allah who explained it for them. The command for Hajj came to the Messenger of Allah. It did not say walk seven times around the Ka‘ba. It was the Messenger of Allah who explained it for them. The verse about obedience came, ‘Believers, obey Allah, His Messenger and your leaders (who possess Divine Authority). . . .’ (4:59) It came to declare that Ali, al-Hassan and al-Husayn, aleyhum assalam, were the Leaders who possessed Divine Authority. The Messenger of Allah then said about Ali, aleyhis salam, ‘Over whomever I have Divine Authority, Ali, aleyhis salam, also has Divine Authority over him.’ He also has said, ‘I enjoin you to follow the Book of Allah and my family. It is because I have prayed to Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, not to separate these two from each other until He will make them arrive at al-Kawthar (the pond of paradise) to join me. He has granted my prayer as such.’

“The Holy Prophet, aleyhis salam, has said, ‘Do not try to teach them (‘A’immah); they are far more knowledgeable than you.’ The Holy Prophet has said, ‘‘A’immah, aleyhum assalam, will never take you out of the gate of guidance and they will never make you enter the gate of error.’ Had the Messenger of Allah remained silent and had not explained anything about his Ahl al-Bayt (the family) the family of so and so would have advanced their claim for Imamat (Leadership with Divine Authority). However, Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has revealed it in His book to confirm the explanations of His Prophet about Ahl al-Bayt (in the following verse): ‘People of the house, Allah wants to remove all kinds of uncleanness from you and to purify you thoroughly.’ (33:33) Ali, Fatimah, al-Hassan and al-Husayn, aleyhum assalam, were there and the Holy Prophet made them to enter under al-Kisa’ (the Cloak) in the house of ’Umm Salama and then said, ‘O Lord, every prophet had a family and a heaviness and credence, and these are my family, my heaviness and credence.’ ’Umm Salama at this point said, ‘Am I not of your family?’ The Holy Prophet said, ‘You are in goodness but these are my family, my heaviness and credence.’

“When the Messenger of Allah passed away Ali, aleyhis salam, had the utmost priority and guardianship of the people because of what the Messenger of Allah had preached about him. It was because of raising him up for the people and holding his hand in his hand. When Ali, aleyhis salam, (was about to) pass away he could not (and would not) enter Muhammad ibn Ali or al-‘Abbass ibn Ali or any one of his other sons in the position of Imamat (Leadership with Divine Authority). Otherwise, al-Hassan and al-Husayn, aleyhum assalam, would have said [in response], ‘Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has revealed about us just as He has done so about you, and He has commanded people to obey us just as He has commanded people to obey you. The Messenger of Allah has preached to people about us just as he has done so about you. Allah has removed al-Rijs (uncleanness) from us just as He has done so to you.’

“When Ali, aleyhis salam, left this world, al-Hassan had the utmost priority for Imamat (Leadership with Divine Authority); he was the eldest. When he was about to die he could not, and would not, enter his sons in the position of Imamat. It is because Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, says, ‘. . . The relatives are closer to each other, according to the Book of Allah, than the believers and the emigrants. . . .’ (33:6) Had he then placed Imamat in his sons, al-Husayn, aleyhis salam, would have said, ‘Allah has commanded people to obey me just as He has commanded people to obey you and to obey your father. The Messenger of Allah has preached to people about me just as he has preached to people about you and your father. Allah has removed al-Rijs (unleanliness) from me just as He has removed it from you and your father.’

“When Imamat was in full force with al-Husayn, aleyhis salam, there was no one in his family who could claim against him as he could claim against his brother and father. He could do so in case they had (his father and brother) wanted to divert it from him but they did not and would not do so. After them it found its place with al-Husayn, aleyhis salam, and the interpretation of this verse continued to remain valid, ‘. . . The relatives are closer to each other, according to the Book of Allah, than the believers and the emigrants. . . .’ (33:6)

“After al-Husayn, aleyhis salam, Imamat found its place with Ali ibn al-Husayn, aleyhis salam. After Ali ibn al-Husayn, aleyhis salam, it (Leadership with Divine Authority) found its place with Muhammad ibn Ali, aleyhis salam. The Imam said, ‘Al-Rijs means doubts. I swear by Allah that we never doubt in our Lord.’”

[al-Kulayni mentions after this hadeeth another chain for it:] Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Muhammad ibn Khalid and al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from al-Nadr ibn Suwayd from Yahya ibn ‘Imran al-Halabi from Ayyub ibn al-Hurr and ‘Imran ibn Ali al-Halabi from Abu 'AbdAllah (as-Sadiq), aleyhis salam, a similar Hadith.

Peace.

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Though the OP named the thread as the evidences of Imamat from the Qur’an , I can’t see a single even now . What I see a flood of Ahaith from almost 60% corrupted book Al-Kafi .

Can’t Shia prove this Usoole Din from the Qur’an only ??

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Is there a clear nass in the Quran on the imamate of 12 imams? Simple question. No need for long copy pastes or long posts.

If yes, present the verse.

(Nass) means something with clear and obvious meaning.

Though the OP named the thread as the evidences of Imamat from the Qur’an , I can’t see a single even now . What I see a flood of Ahaith from almost 60% corrupted book Al-Kafi .

Can’t Shia prove this Usoole Din from the Qur’an only ??

No they can't.

Edited by Lonely warrior

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(bismillah)

(salam)

فَلَا تُمَارِ فِيهِمْ إِلَّا مِرَاءً ظَاهِرًا وَلَا تَسْتَفْتِ فِيهِمْ مِنْهُمْ أَحَدًا

[shakir (a part of) 18:22] ...therefore contend not in the matter of them but with an outward contention, and do not question concerning them any of them.

The Book of Allah(swt) says to follow clear, outward/apparent (dhaahir) verses and Shia Islam is built almost completely on the non-apparent "hidden" meanings of verses that they themselves apply. i don't know what to say really.

This reminds me of the hadith of the Prophet (pbuh):

قال النبيّ صل الله عليه وآله وسلّم: ‏ ‏فإذا رأيت الذين يتبعون ما تشابه منه فأولئك الذين سمى الله فاحذروهم

"If you see those who follow that which is not entirely clear from it (the Quran), then they are those whom God has named (referring to 3:7 as having a disease in their hearts), so beware of them."

Surely the Prophet (pbuh) spoke the truth.

w/s

Salam

What is ‘Mutashabih’ ?

It does not mean allegorical,/not clear/ hidden

"at-Tashabuh" means alike,similar,

قَالُوا ادْعُ لَنَا رَبَّكَ يُبَيِّنْ لَنَا مَا هِيَ إِنَّ الْبَقَرَ تَشَابَهَ عَلَيْنَا وَإِنَّا إِنْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَمُهْتَدُونَ

[2:70] They said: Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what she is, for surely to us the cows are all alike, and if Allah please we shall surely be guided aright.

وَهُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ مَاءً فَأَخْرَجْنَا بِهِ نَبَاتَ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ فَأَخْرَجْنَا مِنْهُ خَضِرًا نُخْرِجُ مِنْهُ حَبًّا مُتَرَاكِبًا وَمِنَ النَّخْلِ مِنْ طَلْعِهَا قِنْوَانٌ دَانِيَةٌ وَجَنَّاتٍ مِنْ أَعْنَابٍ وَالزَّيْتُونَ وَالرُّمَّانَ مُشْتَبِهًا وَغَيْرَ مُتَشَابِهٍ ۗ انْظُرُوا إِلَىٰ ثَمَرِهِ إِذَا أَثْمَرَ وَيَنْعِهِ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكُمْ لَآيَاتٍ لِقَوْمٍ يُؤْمِنُونَ {99}

[6:99] And He it is Who sends down water from the cloud, then We bring forth with it buds of all (plants), then We bring forth from it green (foliage) from which We produce grain piled up (in the ear); and of the palm-tree, of the sheaths of it, come forth clusters (of dates) within reach, and gardens of grapes and olives and pomegranates, alike and unlike; behold the fruit of it when it yields the fruit and the ripening of it; most surely there are signs in this for a people who believe.

Surely We have made it an Arabic Qur'an, so that you may understand. And surely it is in the Original of the Book with Us, truly elevated, full of wisdom (43:3-4).

‘Mutashabih’ is an is an expression that is capable of more than one meaning; but only one of those meanings is intended

[3:7] but none knows its interpretation except Allah,

And this ‘Mutshabih’ verses are made decisive by Allah subhanhu.

[11:1] Alif Lam Ra (This is) a Book, whose verses are made decisive, then are they made plain, from the Wise, All-aware:

One of the purpose of sending messengers is to end differences between people.

[2:213] (All) people are a single nation; so Allah raised prophets as bearers of good news and as warners, and He revealed with them the Book with truth, that it might judge between people in that in which they differed; and none but the very people who were given it differed about it after clear arguments had come to them, revolting among themselves; so Allah has guided by His will those who believe to the truth about which they differed and Allah guides whom He pleases to the right path.

When we see people are differing over meaning of any verse we must sought explanation either from prophet(saw) or Purified servants of Allah.

[56:77] Most surely it is an honored Quran,

[56:78] In a Book kept hidden

[56:79] None shall touch it save the purified ones.

To end this differences he made obedience of Ulil Amra 4:59 compulsory upon all believers

Edited by elite

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(bismillah)

(salam)

ÝóáóÇ ÊõãóÇÑö Ýöíåöãú ÅöáóøÇ ãöÑóÇÁð ÙóÇåöÑðÇ æóáóÇ ÊóÓúÊóÝúÊö Ýöíåöãú ãöäúåõãú ÃóÍóÏðÇ

[shakir (a part of) 18:22] ...therefore contend not in the matter of them but with an outward contention, and do not question concerning them any of them.

The Book of Allah(swt) says to follow clear, outward/apparent (dhaahir) verses and Shia Islam is built almost completely on the non-apparent "hidden" meanings of verses that they themselves apply. i don't know what to say really.

This reminds me of the hadith of the Prophet (pbuh):

ÞÇá ÇáäÈíø Õá Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáøã: þ þÝÅÐÇ ÑÃíÊ ÇáÐíä íÊÈÚæä ãÇ ÊÔÇÈå ãäå ÝÃæáÆß ÇáÐíä Óãì Çááå ÝÇÍÐÑæåã

"If you see those who follow that which is not entirely clear from it (the Quran), then they are those whom God has named (referring to 3:7 as having a disease in their hearts), so beware of them."

Surely the Prophet (pbuh) spoke the truth.

w/s

That is very true . I observed the same thing . My wife left Shiasm because of this reason . Its Almighty Allah's mercy , whomever HE , the Exalted bestow open hearts to think rationally .

Salam

What is ‘Mutashabih’ ?

It does not mean allegorical,/not clear/ hidden

"at-Tashabuh" means alike,similar,

ÞóÇáõæÇ ÇÏúÚõ áóäóÇ ÑóÈøóßó íõÈóíøöäú áóäóÇ ãóÇ åöíó Åöäøó ÇáúÈóÞóÑó ÊóÔóÇÈóåó ÚóáóíúäóÇ æóÅöäøóÇ Åöäú ÔóÇÁó Çááøóåõ áóãõåúÊóÏõæäó

[2:70] They said: Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what she is, for surely to us the cows are all alike, and if Allah please we shall surely be guided aright.

æóåõæó ÇáøóÐöí ÃóäúÒóáó ãöäó ÇáÓøóãóÇÁö ãóÇÁð ÝóÃóÎúÑóÌúäóÇ Èöåö äóÈóÇÊó ßõáøö ÔóíúÁò ÝóÃóÎúÑóÌúäóÇ ãöäúåõ ÎóÖöÑðÇ äõÎúÑöÌõ ãöäúåõ ÍóÈøðÇ ãõÊóÑóÇßöÈðÇ æóãöäó ÇáäøóÎúáö ãöäú ØóáúÚöåóÇ ÞöäúæóÇäñ ÏóÇäöíóÉñ æóÌóäøóÇÊò ãöäú ÃóÚúäóÇÈò æóÇáÒøóíúÊõæäó æóÇáÑøõãøóÇäó ãõÔúÊóÈöåðÇ æóÛóíúÑó ãõÊóÔóÇÈöåò ۗ ÇäúÙõÑõæÇ Åöáóìٰ ËóãóÑöåö ÅöÐóÇ ÃóËúãóÑó æóíóäúÚöåö ۚ Åöäøó Ýöí Ðóٰáößõãú áóÂíóÇÊò áöÞóæúãò íõÄúãöäõæäó {99}

[6:99] And He it is Who sends down water from the cloud, then We bring forth with it buds of all (plants), then We bring forth from it green (foliage) from which We produce grain piled up (in the ear); and of the palm-tree, of the sheaths of it, come forth clusters (of dates) within reach, and gardens of grapes and olives and pomegranates, alike and unlike; behold the fruit of it when it yields the fruit and the ripening of it; most surely there are signs in this for a people who believe.

Surely We have made it an Arabic Qur'an, so that you may understand. And surely it is in the Original of the Book with Us, truly elevated, full of wisdom (43:3-4).

‘Mutashabih’ is an is an expression that is capable of more than one meaning; but only one of those meanings is intended

[3:7] but none knows its interpretation except Allah,

And this ‘Mutshabih’ verses are made decisive by Allah subhanhu.

[11:1] Alif Lam Ra (This is) a Book, whose verses are made decisive, then are they made plain, from the Wise, All-aware:

One of the purpose of sending messengers is to end differences between people.

[2:213] (All) people are a single nation; so Allah raised prophets as bearers of good news and as warners, and He revealed with them the Book with truth, that it might judge between people in that in which they differed; and none but the very people who were given it differed about it after clear arguments had come to them, revolting among themselves; so Allah has guided by His will those who believe to the truth about which they differed and Allah guides whom He pleases to the right path.

When we see people are differing over meaning of any verse we must sought explanation either from prophet(saw) or Purified servants of Allah.

[56:77] Most surely it is an honored Quran,

[56:78] In a Book kept hidden

[56:79] None shall touch it save the purified ones.

To end this differences he made obedience of Ulil Amra 4:59 compulsory upon all believers

Brother Elite . The concept of Imamah is the Usoole Din of Shiasm , hence it demands very clear and straight forward evidences from the Qur’an . We wouldn’t mind if it would be the Furue Din and hence absent from the Qur’an .

Can you show us clearer , well-comprehensible and straight forward verses of the Qur’an on the concept of 12 Imams ? And please don't divert the thread to something which is unnecessary .

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Assalamu alaykum wa rahmetu Allahi wa barekato.

doesnt al-rijs mean "all evil/impurity"? We see that the Imam mentions that it means "doubt". How do we reconcile the two meanings?

It could mean both.

Though the OP named the thread as the evidences of Imamat from the Qur'an , I can't see a single even now . What I see a flood of Ahaith from almost 60% corrupted book Al-Kafi .Can't Shia prove this Usoole Din from the Qur'an only ??

How little thought and effort went into that post? If you are going to ignore my first post, in which there are many good points, then there is no point posting; especially with stupid comments like "60% corrupited".

Is there a clear nass in the Quran on the imamate of 12 imams? Simple question. No need for long copy pastes or long posts.

If yes, present the verse.

Refer to post #1.The only reason why the post is long is because I wanted to carefully explain the reason why the verse is a proof for Imamate. If you're going to just ignore it, then ask for evidence, again don't bother posting.

(Nass) means something with clear and obvious meaning.

The verse is clear. Allah, azza wa jalla, is the one who selects the Ulil-Amr who are the Aimmah, aleyhum assalam. If you're going to just reply, denying this without giving a proper reason, don't bother.

The Book of Allah(swt) says to follow clear, outward/apparent (dhaahir) verses and Shia Islam is built almost completely on the non-apparent "hidden" meanings of verses that they themselves apply. i don't know what to say really.

Nope.

The verse is clear. The obedience to Rasulullaah is equal to the obedience to the Ulil-Amr. Allah, azza wa jalla, would logically not command us to follow someone who is deficient in knowledge or character or taqwa, and so the Ulil-Amr are the most knowledgable and have the best character and greatest taqwa; (for the absence, even partially, of these qualities wold mean a man followers a lesser man which is nonsensical). People do not have the knowledge or ability to pick such a character, and just like Rasulullaah was chosen (because of his qualities), so the Ulil-Amr were chosen (as can be seen in, for example, 33:33). There we have ilm, nass, isma, imamah (authority), etc. For a proper discussion, see the first post in this thread/topic.

Peace.

Edited by Perseverance

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Assalamu alaykum wa rahmetu Allahi wa barekato.

It could mean both.

How little thought and effort went into that post? If you are going to ignore my first post, in which there are many good points, then there is no point posting; especially with stupid comments like "60% corrupited".

Refer to post #1.The only reason why the post is long is because I wanted to carefully explain the reason why the verse is a proof for Imamate. If you're going to just ignore it, then ask for evidence, again don't bother posting.

The verse is clear. Allah, azza wa jalla, is the one who selects the Ulil-Amr who are the Aimmah, aleyhum assalam. If you're going to just reply, denying this without giving a proper reason, don't bother.

Nope.

The verse is clear. The obedience to Rasulullaah is equal to the obedience to the Ulil-Amr. Allah, azza wa jalla, would logically not command us to follow someone who is deficient in knowledge or character or taqwa, and so the Ulil-Amr are the most knowledgable and have the best character and greatest taqwa; (for the absence, even partially, of these qualities wold mean a man followers a lesser man which is nonsensical). People do not have the knowledge or ability to pick such a character, and just like Rasulullaah was chosen (because of his qualities), so the Ulil-Amr were chosen (as can be seen in, for example, 33:33). There we have ilm, nass, isma, imamah (authority), etc. For a proper discussion, see the first post in this thread/topic.

Peace.

You mention verse 4:59 which didn't give an iota of hints that 12 Imams are ulul Amr . To remind you again that the card in your hand to play the game is the evidence of Imamat from the Qur'an . Don't take any Tafsir or Hadith in between , otherwise cancel the name of the thread .

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(bismillah)

(salam)

i agree with you 100%

You're correct that this verse is crystal-clear. Obey God, obey the Messenger, and the people charged with authority amongst us. We hear and we obey.

w/s

So who are the "people charged with authority" brother? :)

You mention verse 4:59 which didn't give an iota of hints that 12 Imams are ulul Amr .

Who are Ulil Amr?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

People charged with authority among us. This can be the rulers or the 'ulema.

So anybody who is a ruler is Ulil Amr? Does he have to be a Muslim? What other criteria is necessary? If it is the ulema, how do we decide which ones? Even Shaytan is an 'alim.

Lets go with this one at a time. It will prevent us from going off topic.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

íóÇ ÃóíõøåóÇ ÇáóøÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇ ÃóØöíÚõæÇ ÇááóøÜåó æóÃóØöíÚõæÇ ÇáÑóøÓõæáó æóÃõæáöí ÇáúÃóãúÑö ãöäßõãú ۖ ÝóÅöä ÊóäóÇÒóÚúÊõãú Ýöí ÔóíúÁò ÝóÑõÏõøæåõ Åöáóì ÇááóøÜåö æóÇáÑóøÓõæáö Åöä ßõäÊõãú ÊõÄúãöäõæäó ÈöÇááóøÜåö æóÇáúíóæúãö ÇáúÂÎöÑö ۚ Ðóٰáößó ÎóíúÑñ æóÃóÍúÓóäõ ÊóÃúæöíáðÇ

[shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

That is one of the conditions that Allah(swt) gives us. Another is this:

æóÅöÐóÇ ÌóÇÁóåõãú ÃóãúÑñ ãöäó ÇáúÃóãúäö Ãóæö ÇáúÎóæúÝö ÃóÐóÇÚõæÇ Èöåö ۖ æóáóæú ÑóÏõøæåõ Åöáóì ÇáÑóøÓõæáö æóÅöáóìٰ Ãõæáöí ÇáúÃóãúÑö ãöäúåõãú áóÚóáöãóåõ ÇáóøÐöíäó íóÓúÊóäúÈöØõæäóåõ ãöäúåõãú ۗ æóáóæúáóÇ ÝóÖúáõ Çááóøåö Úóáóíúßõãú æóÑóÍúãóÊõåõ áóÇÊóøÈóÚúÊõãõ ÇáÔóøíúØóÇäó ÅöáóøÇ Þóáöíáð

[shakir 4:83] And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few

w/s

One more ayat that you missed:

ÝóÇÕúÈöÑú áöÍõßúãö ÑóÈöøßó æóáóÇ ÊõØöÚú ãöäúåõãú ÂËöãðÇ Ãóæú ßóÝõæÑðÇ {24}

[shakir 76:24] Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one.

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(salam)

You mention verse 4:59 which didn't give an iota of hints that 12 Imams are ulul Amr . To remind you again that the card in your hand to play the game is the evidence of Imamat from the Qur'an . Don't take any Tafsir or Hadith in between , otherwise cancel the name of the thread .

My thread gives evidence Imamate. I didn't say it proved that the Ulil-Amr are the 12 Imams.

People charged with authority among us. This can be the rulers or the 'ulema.

You can quote whatever hadith you want about the Imams but the fact of the matter is that they all gave allegence to the rulers of their time and when they were offered leadership, they rejected it (except for Ali, who was eventually forced to rule).

They refused power when it was handed to them on a silver plate, so they obviously didn't see power as one of their responsibilities.

A dumb argument since they were compelled to give allegiance. In a hadeeth, this is listed a reason, or benefit, of the ghaybah; (i.e. that al-Mahdi, aleyhis salam, will not be forced to pledge allegiance). It's also a dumb argument because temporal and worldy power isn't the only thing meant - assuming it is meant -, but religious authority is meant (too); what would be the point of the verse giving the Aimmah ilm? The Aimmah, aleyhum assalam, issued fataawa. It's also a dumb argument because they were not truly offered the Khalifate.

Nor did they openly call people to their alleged rights.

Because they would have been killed.

Hadith literature is filled with people going to the Imams and asking questions about the things that Shias say, only for the Imams to reject them and sometimes curse those Shias.

Look up the meaning of the word "filled".

Subhan'Allah, imagine the Prophet(pbuh) being asked "Ammar says that you claim to be the Messenger of God. Is this true?" Only for him to say "No! This is not true! Whoever says that I am the Messenger of God is liar and may God curse Ammar."

Imagine a man who comes upto the Aba Abdillah as-Sadiq, aleyhis salam and asks him "Zurara says that you claim to be the Imam". The Imam says "yes, I do. Ammar tells the truth", and then the man runs off and informs the Caliph who then promptly executes the Imam. The Imam then isn't able to teach.

Do you really believe that people went to the Imams for guidance only for the Imams to turn them away?

No; which is why there are thousands of ahadeeth where the Aimmah, aleyhum assalam, taught.

And these weren't enemies of Ahl al-Bayt, these were sometimes people who were agreed by both sects to be good, righteous people. And there's even examples of the Imams supposedly doing taqiyyah with their own Shias, even if there was no one else around.

Rather it was only a few who were entrusted with this secret.

There were very few true Shia as reported in the ahadeeth. How sad for the Aimmah, aleyhum assalam :(

Should i take the public statements of the Imams that were well known by the entire Ummah or should i take reports were everything was supposedly done in secret and brought to us by shady individuals?

Shady according to who? A bunch of fools stupid enough to take Abu Hanifa's qiyas as a valid madhab of Deen.

There are thousands of ahadeeth where the Aimmah, aleyhum assalam, teach, and they teach with authority. But there are a handful, probably most of them are weak, which say otherwise. Considering both come through the Imami rijaal, clearly the answer is not that the Aimmah denied their Imamate and denied their followers.

Shakir 4:83] And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the bold part is referring to a people who are different and distinct from the Ulil-Amr. So this is not a condition.

You can keep brushing off my first post, lotfilms, but don't claim to seek the truth. My first post and my bold paragraph clearly show that the Shia conception of Imamate is in the Quran.

The verse is clear. The obedience to Rasulullaah is equal to the obedience to the Ulil-Amr. Allah, azza wa jalla, would logically not command us to follow someone who is deficient in knowledge or character or taqwa, and so the Ulil-Amr are the most knowledgable and have the best character and greatest taqwa; (for the absence, even partially, of these qualities wold mean Allah commands that man follows a lesser man or a bad man which is nonsensical). People do not have the knowledge or ability to pick such a character, and just like Rasulullaah was chosen (because of his qualities), so the Ulil-Amr were chosen (as can also be seen in, for example, 33:33, assuming Ulil-Amr = Aimmah). There we have ilm, nass, isma, imamah (authority), etc. For a proper discussion, see the first post in this thread/topic.

Peace.

Edited by Perseverance

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(bismillah)

(salam)

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّـهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ ۖ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّـهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّـهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

[shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

That is one of the conditions that Allah(swt) gives us. Another is this:

وَإِذَا جَاءَهُمْ أَمْرٌ مِنَ الْأَمْنِ أَوِ الْخَوْفِ أَذَاعُوا بِهِ ۖ وَلَوْ رَدُّوهُ إِلَى الرَّسُولِ وَإِلَىٰ أُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْهُمْ لَعَلِمَهُ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَنْبِطُونَهُ مِنْهُمْ ۗ وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ لَاتَّبَعْتُمُ الشَّيْطَانَ إِلَّا قَلِيلً

[shakir 4:83] And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few

w/s

يَا بَنِي آدَمَ إِمَّا يَأْتِيَنَّكُمْ رُسُلٌ مِنْكُمْ يَقُصُّونَ عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِي ۙ فَمَنِ اتَّقَىٰ وَأَصْلَحَ فَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ {35}

[shakir 7:35] O children of Adam! if there come to you messengers from among you relating to you My communications, then whoever shall guard (against evil) and act aright-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

Which Amra?

Amr of Allah or Amr of People?

Edited by elite

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(bismillah)

(salam)

People charged with authority among us. This can be the rulers or the 'ulema.

You can quote whatever hadith you want about the Imams but the fact of the matter is that they all gave allegence to the rulers of their time and when they were offered leadership, they rejected it (except for Ali, who was eventually forced to rule).

They refused power when it was handed to them on a silver plate, so they obviously didn't see power as one of their responsibilities.

Nor did they openly call people to their alleged rights. Hadith literature is filled with people going to the Imams and asking questions about the things that Shias say, only for the Imams to reject them and sometimes curse those Shias.

Subhan'Allah, imagine the Prophet(pbuh) being asked "Ammar says that you claim to be the Messenger of God. Is this true?" Only for him to say "No! This is not true! Whoever says that I am the Messenger of God is liar and may God curse Ammar."

Do you really believe that people went to the Imams for guidance only for the Imams to turn them away? And these weren't enemies of Ahl al-Bayt, these were sometimes people who were agreed by both sects to be good, righteous people. And there's even examples of the Imams supposedly doing taqiyyah with their own Shias, even if there was no one else around.

Rather it was only a few who were entrusted with this secret.

So when people asked them to take power, they refused, and when random, common, righteous people asked them if they are leaders appointed by Allah(swt), they said no.

Should i take the public statements of the Imams that were well known by the entire Ummah or should i take reports were everything was supposedly done in secret and brought to us by shady individuals?

i'll go with he former; the Imams told us that so i listen to what they say.

w/s

Wsalam

Were prophets sent to rule over people? see first what were duties of prophet(saw).Is there anywhere power?

Before going into the duty of Imams we have to see what were duties of prophets

Purpose of sending messengers.

1. Worship of Allah and shun false gods 16:36

2. Lead mankind out of Darkness into Light 14:1

3. Lead forth those who believe and do righteous deeds from Darkness into Light. 65:11

4. A witness 33:45

4. A bearer of Glad Tidings 33:45

6 A warner 33:45

7. Recitation of communication 62:2

8. Purification 62:2

9. A Judge 2:213,57:25

10 A Teacher 62:2

11 enjoins good and forbids evil 7:157

12 makes lawful good things and makes unlawful impure things 7:157

And our Prophet(S.A.W.) as Mercy to the worlds. 21;107.

With completion of Nabuwwat task of revealation and recitation of Book was completed

Because Imam/Ulilamra are successor of prophet(saw) their task are.

1. Judge for believers 4:59

2. Guide for righteous people. 2:1-5

3. Witness over people 22:78

Because believers are asked to obey Ulil Amra in verse 4:59.

Edited by elite

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I must say that im still a student of Shiaism and have scads of things to learn. No doubt the concept of 'imamate' is obscure and most of the evidences forwarded are derivations. I say this because verses put forward such as 4:59 call us to obey the Ulil Amr and at the same time remind us to not to obey the evil ones and this latter part leaves 'Ulil Amr' a contested figure since many can fall under the category of pious and those who do good.

However, since much stress is laid upon the issue even in Koran the issue of 'obedience to those in authority' cannot be ignored. Do the sunni brothers believe that obedience to those in authority(who ever they are) is an integral part of Islam?

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I must say that im still a student of Shiaism and have scads of things to learn. No doubt the concept of 'imamate' is obscure and most of the evidences forwarded are derivations. I say this because verses put forward such as 4:59 call us to obey the Ulil Amr and at the same time remind us to not to obey the evil ones and this latter part leaves 'Ulil Amr' a contested figure since many can fall under the category of pious and those who do good.

(salam)

If you read my first post and my bold paragraph (at the end of post #16), you will see 4:59 is clear evidence for the concept of Imamate in the Quran. Furthermore, Allah, azza wa jalla, would logically not command us to follow someone who is deficient in knowledge or character or taqwa, and so the Ulil-Amr are the most knowledgable and have the best character and greatest taqwa; (for the absence, even partially, of these qualities wold mean Allah commands that man follows a lesser man or a bad man which is nonsensical).

However, since much stress is laid upon the issue even in Koran the issue of 'obedience to those in authority' cannot be ignored. Do the sunni brothers believe that obedience to those in authority(who ever they are) is an integral part of Islam?

The Sunnis do not spare much thought for this issue. They either do not know about the implications of 4:59 or they dismiss it with a weak explanation.

Peace.

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(salam)

Just a couple of points -

The thread is there to prove Imamat in the Quran, not the 12 Imams or shiasm.

If the Prophets risked their lives to spread the truth, why was the mission of the Imams 'hidden'.

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(salam)

Just a couple of points -

The thread is there to prove Imamat in the Quran, not the 12 Imams or shiasm.

If the Prophets risked their lives to spread the truth, why was the mission of the Imams 'hidden'.

The role of the Prophets and Imams were different.

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Yes the roles were different but since we aver that Imam are appointed by Allah in a fashion similar to the appointment of Prophets i.e. through Allah alone, then why did it need to be hidden? My point is that why didnt imam Ali promulgate the notion of imamate?

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Yes, of course. I’m just expanding on brother lotfilms’ point about the Imams leading in secrecy and the response being that they would have been killed otherwise. I’m sure our Prophets were also persecuted.

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People charged with authority among us. This can be the rulers or the 'ulema.

Rulers

[27:34] She said: Surely the kings, when they enter a town, ruin it and make the noblest of its people to be low, and thus they (always) do;

[33:67] And they shall say: O our Lord! surely we obeyed our leaders and our great men, so they led us astray from the path;

Ulema

[2:41] And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.

[ 2:79] Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

[2:42] And do not mix up the truth with the falsehood, nor hide the truth while you know (it).

[3:7}..then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow that which is similar from it, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation..

Edited by elite

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Yes the roles were different but since we aver that Imam are appointed by Allah in a fashion similar to the appointment of Prophets i.e. through Allah alone, then why did it need to be hidden? My point is that why didnt imam Ali promulgate the notion of imamate?

He did. And so did the Prophet and so did the other Imams.

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(salam)

A dumb argument since they were compelled to give allegiance. In a hadeeth, this is listed a reason, or benefit, of the ghaybah; (i.e. that al-Mahdi, aleyhis salam, will not be forced to pledge allegiance). It's also a dumb argument because temporal and worldy power isn't the only thing meant - assuming it is meant -, but religious authority is meant (too); what would be the point of the verse giving the Aimmah ilm? The Aimmah, aleyhum assalam, issued fataawa. It's also a dumb argument because they were not truly offered the Khalifate.

I agree with you that it is a dumb argument because selling yourself to the devil is never a smart deal. Imam Ali (as) was also offered the position of caliphate if he compromised his faith and maintains the rule of the previous two shaykh’s (Abu Bakr and Umar). He declined and said that he will only rule with the Holy Quran and the Prophet Sunnah. Uthman grab the opportunity. And the history testifies how corrupt Uthman regime was.

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True, but we don’t follow an infallible right now, and if we did then we wouldn’t have a divergence of opinions from our scholars.

Difference being, we aren't claiming the scholars are Ulil Amr.

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He did. And so did the Prophet and so did the other Imams

That's a separate discussion.

Anyway, going back to 'declaring' ones Imamat, if Prophets - in their roles - risked death to spread and teach the word of Allah, why would an Imam be expected to guide in secret? Why are the actions of people like Zaid, Nafs Az-Zakkiyah, Yahya etc taken to be contrary to how 'Imamat' should be?

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That's a separate discussion.

Anyway, going back to 'declaring' ones Imamat, if Prophets - in their roles - risked death to spread and teach the word of Allah, why would an Imam be expected to guide in secret? Why are the actions of people like Zaid, Nafs Az-Zakkiyah, Yahya etc taken to be contrary to how 'Imamat' should be?

Its not a separate discussion because its directly related to the question that you're asking. The Imams (as) risked death as well. Prophets (as) before them didn't have political power either apart from a few. When Prophets (as) were not kings, its an unreasonable demand that Imams (as) had to be kings otherwise they wouldn't be Imams.

The actions of Zaid, Nafs al-Zakiyyah etc were incorrect because they weren't Imams.

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Its not a separate discussion because its directly related to the question that you're asking. The Imams (as) risked death as well. Prophets (as) before them didn't have political power either apart from a few. When Prophets (as) were not kings, its an unreasonable demand that Imams (as) had to be kings otherwise they wouldn't be Imams.

The actions of Zaid, Nafs al-Zakiyyah etc were incorrect because they weren't Imams.

Not Zayd ibn Ali (ra), he was a pious Imami, and his uprising was just. He accepted the Imamate of his brother.

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Not Zayd ibn Ali (ra), he was a pious Imami, and his uprising was just. He accepted the Imamate of his brother.

Apologies. Thanks for the correction. :)

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