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In the Name of God بسم الله

Kurds And Jinn

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4 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

How much hadiths of Mathab e Shia gets weakened by this criteria?

How much of your aqaid will survive if you apply this criteria?

Its dis-honesty to be lenient with hadiths when authenticating them just because they favor us, but if they don't we apply some hardest rules to weaken them.

a question in my mind right now is this friend of mine whom I know who is a Turkish shia Kurd, who even went to Hawza. If he reads such a hadith, what would he think. I am sure he read it. Next time I meet him I'll ask him. There might be something fishy about the negative part of this hadith, and one could possibly see it as an attempt to keep the blood lines pure. But it does not make sense in light of the Quran to negatively portray someone just because they are Jinn. It reminds me of the following verse combination ..

 

The bedouins are stronger in disbelief and hypocrisy and more likely not to know the limits of what Allah has revealed to His Messenger. Tawba 97

 

.. now if I quote this one that talks about the "Arabs" literally, one might think that it's insulting the Arab race, and all Arabs would be offended and leave Islam. Ironically the Kurds are also considered nomadic. But then, when you read on, you find a balancing verse, that scoops up all the good Arabs ..

 

But among the bedouins are some who believe in Allah and the Last Day and consider what they spend as means of nearness to Allah and of invocations of the Messenger.  Tawba:99

So likewise we have hadiths that talk favorably about the Jinn, and above all, let us look at suret Jinn that does not say that the word Jinn and whatever the hadith seems to generalize is always true. So the hadith could be true, but one reads it not in a all-encompassing way. Obviously not all Jinn are bad, and not all Kurds are bad. So boycotting certain Jinn and/or Kurds isn't always the rule - even if the hadith was narrated in context to some Jinn who were bothering ahlulbayt at the time. That's how I see it, and I could be wrong.

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@Northwest Here is an article that offers some explanations http://www.revivingalislam.com/2010/11/refutation-against-alleged-racist.html?m=1

:blink:

by the way, this text is copy pasted with an introduction by a user on some forum probably who is basically saying "let us not forget what heroes the Kurds have been in Islam and what great Mujahedeen

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1 hour ago, Allah Seeker said:

I really wonder if you will admit it now that I proved from the Quran and Hadiths that being a Jinn is nothing bad!

No need to wonder, it's all in the Qur'an and I know not all are bad:  وَخَلَقَ الْجَانَّ مِن مَّارِجٍ مِّن نَّارٍ - 55:15

Clearly, we know that the Kurdish people are not beings of smokeless fire or invisible.

Secondly, in Surah al-Jinn, we have the following dialogue : 

قُلْ أُوحِيَ إِلَيَّ أَنَّهُ اسْتَمَعَ نَفَرٌ مِّنَ الْجِنِّ فَقَالُوا إِنَّا سَمِعْنَا قُرْآنًا عَجَبًا - 72:1

يَهْدِي إِلَى الرُّشْدِ فَآمَنَّا بِهِ ۖ وَلَن نُّشْرِكَ بِرَبِّنَا أَحَدًا - 72:2

وَأَنَّهُ تَعَالَىٰ جَدُّ رَبِّنَا مَا اتَّخَذَ صَاحِبَةً وَلَا وَلَدًا - 72:3

وَأَنَّهُ كَانَ يَقُولُ سَفِيهُنَا عَلَى اللَّهِ شَطَطًا - 72:4

وَأَنَّا ظَنَنَّا أَن لَّن تَقُولَ الْإِنسُ وَالْجِنُّ عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِبًا - 72:5

^This has absolutely nothing to do with people in context,even though I know that in Arabic, jinn can refer to people "hidden" from civilization. We know that the jinn have free will to choose Islam or not but that doesn't make them human.  The men in 72:6 were not people descended from jinn but people who associated with them and sought their "power " and allured the people from "mankind"

وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ الْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِ ۗ أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِن دُونِي وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ ۚ بِئْسَ لِلظَّالِمِينَ بَدَلًا - 18:50

^ Here, it tells us that the Jinn are descendants of Iblees (la) and that he disobeyed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), again nothing to do with people.

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا ادْخُلُوا فِي السِّلْمِ كَافَّةً وَلَا تَتَّبِعُوا خُطُوَاتِ الشَّيْطَانِ ۚ إِنَّهُ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ مُّبِينٌ - 2:208

^ "And do not not follow Satan. He is a clear enemy to you." Pretty harsh words for the father of Jinns, again this is repeated through out the Qur'an, there are 28 references to jinns, plus 11 for Iblis. There are very few ringing endorsements for them, they are mostly to be avoided and left alone. I wonder how you got the idea that they are "good"?

Those hadiths you posted contradict the Qur'an. 

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1 hour ago, Allah Seeker said:

if our opinions clash, then one of ours is wrong. And you are not God! 

I never said I was Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), you're simply putting words in my mouth because you're angry, angry only because you know I'm right. There can be only one version of the truth.

Kurds are human and our brothers, according to Islam and that also applies to other races with blonde hair and blue eyes. . 

 

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1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Here, it tells us that the Jinn are descendants of Iblees (la) and that he disobeyed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), again nothing to do with people.

It says he was from the jinn, and not the other way round! I hope your mistake isn't on purpose. 

1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

. I wonder how you got the idea that they are "good"?

How I get the idea that there are good jinn? What are you on about. I lost respect for you

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1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I never said I was Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), you're simply putting words in my mouth because you're angry, angry only because you know I'm right. There can be only one version of the truth.

Kurds are human and our brothers, according to Islam and that also applies to other races with blonde hair and blue eyes. . 

 

I proved above from the quran thay jinn are human, did you read? No! I showed hadiths where ahl bayt refer to jinn as brothers. Did you read them? No! This is like debating with a deaf and blind person! 

Will you admit yet another clearly false information you claim, which is the part where you claim a verse meaning that all jinn are descendants from iblis? I won't argue about anything other than this point from now inshalah, just to show everyone that you are most likely spreading misinformation on purpose! Will you admit it? 

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2 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

 

وَإِذْ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ كَانَ مِنَ الْجِنِّ فَفَسَقَ عَنْ أَمْرِ رَبِّهِ ۗ أَفَتَتَّخِذُونَهُ وَذُرِّيَّتَهُ أَوْلِيَاءَ مِن دُونِي وَهُمْ لَكُمْ عَدُوٌّ ۚ بِئْسَ لِلظَّالِمِينَ بَدَلًا - 18:50

^ Here, it tells us that the Jinn are descendants of Iblees (la) and that he disobeyed Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), again nothing to do with people.

Here Gaius. Will you admit you are wrong here? (Again) Why do you only post the Arabic if you don't know Arabic? Why don't you post any English translation? This is a mistake, will you admit and apologise for spreading falsehood about the words of God's?

 

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4 hours ago, Allah Seeker said:

And there were men from ins who sought refuge in men from the jinn. Jinn:6

That means there exist genders in Jinns (male/female). The Arabic word رجل and its plural رجال means men. 

And if there exist females among Jinns, is there any need for them to wed outside of their community. It would be like human marrying goat or camel etc.

That doesn't make sense brother.

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8 minutes ago, Cool said:

And if there exist females among Jinns, is there any need for them to wed outside of their community. It would be like human marrying goat or camel etc.

That doesn't make sense brother.

Actually brother jinn are described pretty much exactly like all of us in the above hadiths and quran. And it's normal for individuals over time to marry outside of their tribes. It happens 

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2 minutes ago, Allah Seeker said:

Actually brother jinn are described pretty much exactly like all of us in the above hadiths and quran. And it's normal for individuals over time to marry outside of their tribes. It happens 

As far as I remember they are created with مارج من نار are they or their DNA compatible with ours for reproduction? 

 

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12 minutes ago, Cool said:

As far as I remember they are created with مارج من نار are they or their DNA compatible with ours for reproduction? 

 

It seems that they are. The point is that many of us have lots odd jinn genes without even knowing it. The reference to the elements like fire or mud seem to be more symbolic than anything. The evidence discussed above including the hadiths that concerned the original poster do suggest that. 

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7 hours ago, El Cid said:

Pashtun aren't kurds. I've seen the occasional blonde/red haired blue eyed individual amongst their populace as well. Both women and men. Some of my friends are Pashtun and look caucasian in features whilst a lot of them are the black haired with brown eyes as well.

By the way I just wanted to say concerning this that there is talk about the Iranians having been inhabited and ruled by the so- called Aryans, which people say are the same people we are talking about  originate from the Caucasus  and are basically from the race of the jinn. So that could theoretically explain your observation as well.

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Chapter 309 – The reason due to which it is disliked to have dealings with the ones with deformities حدثنا محمد بن الحسن رحمه هللا قال: حدثنا محمد بن يحيى العطار عن محمد بن أحمد بن يحيى عن أحمد بن محمد باسناده رفعه قال: قال أبو عبد هللا )ع( احذروا معاملة أصحاب العاهات فانهم أظلم شئ. Muhammad Bin Al Hassan narrated to us, from Muhammad Bin Yahya Al Ataar, from Muhammad Bin Ahmad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, by his chain, raising it, said, ‘Abu Abdullahasws said: ‘Be cautious of dealing with the ones with deformities, for they are the most unjust of things’.54 )باب 132 - العلة التي من أجلها يكره مخالطة االكراد

( Chapter 310 – The reason due to which it is disliked to mingle with the Kurds أبي رحمه هللا قال: حدثنا سعد بن عبد هللا عن أحمد بن محمد عن علي ابن الحكم عمن حدثه عن أبي الربيع الشامي قال: سألت أبا عبد هللا )ع( فقلت له ان عندنا أقواما من االكراد يجيئونا بالبيع ونبايعهم فقال: يا ربيع ال تخالطهم فان االكراد حى من الجن كشف هللا عنهم الغطاء فال تخالطهم My father said, ‘Sa’ad Bin Abdullah narrated to us, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Ali Ibn Al Hakam, from the one who narrated it, from Abu Al Rabie Al Shamy who said, ‘I asked Abu Abdullahasws, so I said to himasws, ‘With us there are a people from the Kurds who come to us with the trading, so we trade with them’. So heasws said: ‘O Rabie! Do not intermingle with them, for the Kurds are a district (tribe) from the Jinn. Allahazwj Uncovered the covering from them, therefore do not intermingle with them’.5

Chapter 311 – The reason due to which it is disliked to intermingle with the lowly people (riff raff) أبي رحمه هللا قال: حدثنا أحمد بن ادريس عن محمد بن أحمد عن محمد ابن عيسى عن الحسن بن علي بن يقطين عن الحسن بن مياح عن عيسى قال: قال أبو عبد هللا )ع( اياك ومخالطة السفلة فان السفلة ال تؤل إلى خير. My father said, ‘Ahmad Bin Idrees narrated to us, from Muhammad Bin Ahmad, from Muhammad Ibn Isa, from Al Hassan Bin Ali Bin Yaqteen, from Al Hassan Bin Mayaah, from Isa who said, ‘Abu Abdullahasws said: ‘Beware of intermingling with the lowly people (riff raff), for the lowly people do not turn towards the good’.57

Source, pp. 33–4

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Chapter 28 – The reason due to which there came to be among the people, the Blacks, and the Turks, and Al-Saqaliba, and Gog and Magog حدثنا علي بن أحمد بن محمد رضى هللا عنه قال: حدثنا محمد بن أبي عبد هللا الكوفي قال: حدثنا سهل بن زياد اآلدمي قال: حدثنا عبد العظيم بن عبد هللا الحسني قال: سمعت علي بن محمد العسكري عليه السالم يقول: عاش نوح عليه السالم الفين وخمسمائة سنة، وكان يوما في السفينة نائما، فهبت ريح فكشفت عن عورته فضحك حام ويافث، فزجرهما سام عليه السالم ونهاهما عن الضحك، وكان كلما غطى سام شيئا تكشفه الريح كشفه حام ويافث Ali Bin Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Muhammad Bin Abu Abdullah Al Kufy, from Sahl Bin Ziyad Al Admy, from Abdul Azeem Bin Abdullah Al Hasany who said,

‘I heard Aliasws Bin Muhammad Al-Askaryasws saying: ‘Noahas lived for two thousand five hundred years. One day heas asleep in the ship, so a wind descended and uncovered hisas honour. So Haam and Yaafas laughed, and Saamas rebuked them and forbid them from the laughing. And every time Saamas covered something which the wind uncovered, Haam and Yafas would uncover it. فانتبه نوح عليه السالم فرآهم وهم يضحكون فقال ماهذا؟ فاخبره سام بما كان، فرفع نوح عليه السالم يده إلى السماء يدعو ويقول: اللهم غير، ماء صلب حام، حتى ال يولد له إال السودان، اللهم غير ماء صلب يافث فغير هللا ماء صلبهما،

So Noahas paid attention to it and saw them, and they were laughing. So heas said: ‘What is this?’ So, Saamas informed himas of what had happened. So Noahas raised hisas hands to the sky and supplicated and was saying: ‘O Allahazwj! Change the water (seed) of Haam until he does not beget except for the black. O Allahazwj! Change the water (seed) of Yafas!’ So Allahazwj Changed the water of their ribs. فجميع السودان حيث كانوا من حام، وجميع الترك والسقالبة ويأجوج ومأجوج والصين من يافث حيث كانوا، وجميع البيض سواهم من سام،

Therefore, all the black (people), wherever they may be, are from Haam, and all of the Turks and Al-Saqaliba, and Gog, and Magod, and the Chinese, are from Yafas wherever they may be, and all the white, besides them, are from Saamas . وقال نوح " ع " لحام ويافث: جعل هللا ذريتكما خوال لذرية سام إلى يوم القيامة، النه بر بى وعققتمانى، فال زالت سمة عقوقكما لي في ذريتكما ظاهرة وسمة البر بى في ذرية سام ظاهرة ما بقيت الدنيا.

And Noahas said to Haam and Yafas: ‘Allahazwj has Made the offspring of the both of you as followers to the offspring of Saamas up to the Day of Judgement, because heas was righteous with meas and your (both) being disobedient to me. So the traits of disobedience of the both of you would not cease to be in the offspring of you both, in the apparent, nor would the traits of righteousness cease to be in the offspring of Saamas, in the apparent, for as long as the world remains’.42 )باب 29 - العلة

Source, pp. 33–4

Quote

ل ُُم َ ) عليه السالم ( ق ِ اللَّه ِ د ْ ب َ ع َ اء َ ر َْسْ وا ُ َّوج َ َز َي ) عليه السالم ( ت ِ ن ِ م ْ ؤ ُ الْم ُ ْي ِ اَل أَم َ ق ا . َ ه ُ ر ْ ه َ م َّ َي ل َ َع ا ف َ َه ت ْ ْن َكِره ِ إ َ ف ا ة َ وع ُ ب ْ ر َ م َ اء َ ز ْ َج ع َ اء َ ن ْ ي Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad Bin Isa, from Mallik Bin Asheym, from one of his men, (It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullahasws having said: ‘Amir AlMomineenasws said: ‘Marry a brunette (nor very white nor too dark), of large eyes (and) buttocks, of a medium stature, so if you dislike her, then her dowry would be upon measws’.15

Source, p. 10

@Sumerian @notme @Ibn Al-Ja'abi @Gaius I. Caesar @randomly curious @Ashvazdanghe @Haji 2003 @haideriam @Soldiers and Saffron @Ali_Hussain @Mahdavist @Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi @OrthodoxTruth @Qa'im @Logic1234 @Allah Seeker

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On 10/10/2020 at 7:22 PM, Northwest said:

I really enjoyed reading these for the simple reason that I never read these before from Muslim sources. Very interesting, thanks!

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On 10/10/2020 at 12:22 PM, Northwest said:

It's so cute when people bring up weak hadith and act like they found some ace in the sleeve to challenge Muslims with. :hahaha:

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On 10/10/2020 at 8:57 PM, Ali_Hussain said:

@Ali_Hussain @El Cid

This link does not really address my concerns. For example, hadith bearing a weak chain of narrators are not necessarily wrong. For example, the link lists the following hadith as weak:

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عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ سَهْلِ بْنِ زِيَادٍ عَنْ مُوسَى بْنِ جَعْفَرٍ عَنْ عَمْرِو بْنِ سَعِيدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ الْهَاشِمِيِّ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ يُوسُفَ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ دَاوُدَ الْحَدَّادِ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ لَا تُنَاكِحُوا الزِّنْجَ وَ الْخَزَرَ فَإِنَّ لَهُمْ أَرْحَاماً تَدُلُّ عَلَى غَيْرِ الْوَفَاءِ قَالَ وَ الْهِنْدُ وَ السِّنْدُ وَ الْقَنْدُ لَيْسَ فِيهِمْ نَجِيبٌ يَعْنِي الْقُنْدُهَارَ 

“Do not marry the Zanj and the Khazar. Verily, for their wombs show upon other than obedience. He (عليه السلام) said: “And the Hind, and the Sind, and the Qand are not in them highbred meaning Kandahar.” 

Source: Al-Kaafee by Shaykh Kulaynee, vol. 5, pg. 352, h. 3
Wasaa’il Al-Shee’ah by Shaykh Hurr al-‘Aamilee, vol. 20, pg. 82, h. 25089
Grading: Da’eef

Yet further on, a reliable hadith is quoted as generally defining several nations around the world as enemies of Allah:

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Now, when we dissect this “Zanj” definition we can either take it as all of Negros or as a specific group of people. Let us see how Imaam Zayn al-‘Aabideen (عليه السلام) uses it in SaHeefah al-Sajjaadiyyah, du’aa` #27:
 
اللَّهُمَّ وَ اعْمُمْ بِذَلِكَ أَعْدَاءَكَ فِي أَقْطَارِ الْبِلَادِ مِنَ الْهِنْدِ وَ الرُّومِ وَ التُّرْكِ وَ الْخَزَرِ وَ الْحَبَشِ وَ النُّوبَةِ وَ الزَّنْجِ وَ السَّقَالِبَةِ وَ الدَّيَالِمَةِ وَ سَائِرِ أُمَمِ الشِّرْكِ، الَّذِينَ تَخْفَى أَسْمَاؤُهُمْ وَ صِفَاتُهُمْ، وَ قَدْ أَحْصَيْتَهُمْ بِمَعْرِفَتِكَ، وَ أَشْرَفْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ بِقُدْرَتِكَ.

Translation: O Allaah (سبحانه و تعالى), include in this Thy enemies in the regions of the lands, the Indians, the Byzantines, the Turks, the Khazars, the Abyssinians, the Nubians, the Zanjis, the Slavs, the Daylamites, and the rest of the idol-worshipping nations, those whose names and attributes are concealed, but whom Thou countest in Thy cognizance and overseest through Thy power!”

The link goes on to claim that this narration does not include every member of those pagan nations, but the way in which the translation is worded suggests the opposite, that is, “include in this Thy enemies around the world, (then goes on to list pagan nations, both known and unknown)...” How does this constitute anything but a blanket denunciation of these entire nations, down to the individual?

Quote

Also, Imaam Muhammad bin ‘Alee Al-Jawaad’s (عليه السلام) mother was a slave-wife called Sabeekah, she was a Nubian. Shaykh Al-Toosee speaks about marrying the Nubian.

How do we know that these traditions of interracial marriage are not fabricated/PC as well?

Weren’t some usurper caliphs described as being not just [Edited Out]s, but also dark-skinned?

On 10/10/2020 at 7:22 PM, Northwest said:

Is anyone able to grade the hadith I quoted above, particularly the one in the middle about Ham and Yafas (Yafith, Japheth)? That hadith says that, while race does not determine righteousness, righteousness determines race, and implies that Ham and Japheth’s act(s) of disobedience while onboard the Ark was genetically transmitted to their offspring, physical (outward) appearance indicating the moral status of their race(s). Furthermore, per “reliable tradition”:

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Reliable tradition of Imam as-Sadiq mentions that after embarking from the ship, Nuh lived for five hundred years. ... Accordingly Nuh handed over “The Greatest Name”, and the Prophetic relics to his son Sam. Ham and Yusuf had no knowledge from which they could benefit themselves. ... After some time oppression and deviation found roots in the children of Ham. Sam went into hiding with the relics. After Nuh Sam got the wealth of Ham and Yafith and they became dominant over them. It is for this that Allah says: “And We perpetuated to him (praise) among the later generations.”

Source

The same source above also mentions Ham and Japheth being genetically punished for their sin(s) against Prophet Noah.

It is also known that, per the Qur’ān and hadith, previous prophets confirmed earlier Scripture, so anything that is unmentioned by either the Qur’ān or hadith, yet present in earlier writings, i.e., Israelite narratives, should not be discarded on that basis, since it should be analysed contextually. For example, Genesis and the Book of Enoch mention the Nephilim, whereas Islam does not pay much attention to them, yet this does not imply that the Israelite narratives are incorrect.

In relation to the above:

Quote

The Jewish (Talmudic) scholars, he said, advanced two explanations for Ham and his children being turned black. According to Brackman, “The more important version of the myth, however, ingeniously ties in the origins of blackness — and of other, real and imagined Negroid traits — with Noah’s Curse itself. According to it, Ham (or his son Canaan – ed.) is told by his outraged father that, because you have abused me in the darkness of the night, your children shall be born black and ugly; because you have twisted your head to cause me embarrassment, they shall have kinky hair and red eyes; because your lips jested at my exposure, theirs shall swell; and because you neglected my nakedness, they shall go naked with their shamefully elongated male members exposed for all to see.” 

Louis Ginzberg’s Legends of the Jews (pages 168-170)

The descendants of Ham through Canaan therefore have red eyes, because Ham looked upon the nakedness of his father; they have misshapen lips, because Ham spoke with his lips to his brothers about the unseemly condition of his father; they have twisted curly hair, because Ham turned and twisted his head round to see the nakedness of his father; and they go about naked, because Ham did not cover the nakedness of his father. Thus he was requited, for it is the way of God to mete out punishment measure for measure. ...

The last will and testament of Canaan addressed to his children read as follows: “Speak not the truth; hold not yourselves aloof from theft; lead a dissolute life; hate your master with an exceeding great hate; and love one another.” ...

Naked the descendants of Ham, the Egyptians and Ethiopians, were led away captive and into exile by the king of Assyria, while the descendants of Shem, the Assyrians, even when the angel of the Lord burnt them in the camp, were not exposed, their garments remained upon their corpses unsinged. And in time to come, when Gog shall suffer his defeat, God will provide both shrouds and a place of burial for him and all his multitude, the posterity of Japheth.

Source

Quote

Some points I have to clear up:

1. The Canaanites were expelled by the Israelites to Africa.
2. Black skin and curly hair cannot be explained by science, since there are many peoples (out of black africa): Arabs, Berbers, Amerindians, Indians, Indonesians and others who live in hot and dry/ hot and wet regions and are not black skinned/curly haired like Africans and their offshoots (Papuans and others). And that is really suspicious.
3. The curse of slavery and black skin was only put on Canaan and not on Ham’s other children who were darkish (and not black african skinned!) and free, while most Africans were in the state of slavery even in Africa.
4. Many africans tribes had and some still retain, traditions of being descended from Canaan and have their origin in the current Land of Israel. The Efik, Yoruba, , Hausa from Nigeria, the Agaws from Ethiopia and the Meru from Uganada are just a few to name.
5. The pre-Indo Europeans were from lineage of Japheth, but the warrior, newcomer Aryan conquerers were from lineage of Shem, the mighty chosen son of Noah.

Source

Obviously, Sunni sources have similar traditions to those of the Israelites and the hadith listed in Shia sources above...

There are even references to this in esoteric, occult literature (Kurds, Chinese, blacks, etc. do worship jinn and angels):

Quote

Esoteric history teaches that idols and their worship died out with the Fourth Race, until the survivors of the hybrid races of the latter (Chinamen, African Negroes, &c.) gradually brought the worship back. (Note that the very same peoples are mentioned in the hadith on Ham and Japheth – ed.) The Vedas countenance no idols; all the modern Hindu writings do.

Source

These kinds of issues are posing big problems for me. I would like to know how reliable the traditions are. They seem to fit contextually and account for a lot of the realities we see in history, such as the fact that ruling elites tend to be fairer-skinned than lower-class people, the universal connotations of whiteness/blackness with light/darkness and good/evil, the fact that dark-skinned people have historically tended to be relatively isolated and mired in paganism, etc.

It doesn’t help to say that Allah wouldn’t put a curse on an entire people, since He is not beholden to our subjective standards, and He has infinite knowledge of intention, whether past, present, and future. Perhaps, per the Bible, the sins of one’s forefathers can be spiritually transmitted to offspring and “contaminate” them, even such actions as swearing etc., so that one sin, especially if unaddressed, contaminates an entire lineage for thousands of years, manifesting in signs such as social status, wealth or lack thereof, physical appearance, disability, etc.

This might explain why, for instance, Native Americans have been brutally enslaved, abused, poisoned, raped, and even killed as children, since this might be a result of their being “curse,” according to the data presented above, and even among the offspring of Sam few people showed up to aid the Ahl’ al-Bayt, so if even most Shia are going to spend time (eternity?) in Hell, then no one else seems to have a real chance.

I’m sorry if I sound racist, but these issues are tormenting me, and I have high-functioning autism, Asperger’s syndrome to be precise. Even Iranian sources report that people with Asperger’s tend to be antisocial, which may explain why NWO types like Mark Zuckerberg try to patronise them, as he and his big-tech ilk do sexual deviants, disabled people, et al.

Quote

"Lanza Was Mentally Ill, Suffering From Asperger's... People With This Disease Hate The Society Around Them"

"[Yet] another important point that some American websites mentioned was that Lanza was mentally ill, suffering from Asperger's, a communication [disability]; people with this disease hate the society around them [emphasis in original].

"Someone with this disease isn't interested in forming a relationship with society; he is indifferent to [others'] suffering, and sometimes is even interested [in it].

Source

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On 10/15/2020 at 12:30 PM, Northwest said:

@Ali_Hussain @El Cid

For example, hadith bearing a weak chain of narrators are not necessarily wrong. 

 

Ofcourse it means it's wrong. Any hadith which goes against Mainstream hadith beliefs and the Quran is wrong. For example this is what the Quran says about racism:

"O people, your Lord is one and your father Adam is one. There is no favor of an Arab over a foreigner, nor a foreigner over an Arab, and neither white skin over black skin, nor black skin over white skin, except by righteousness. Have I not delivered the message?"

This is what our Prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said about racism:

“O’ Mankind! Surely Allah has removed the pride and conceit that existed within you during the days of Ignorance in relation to your fore-fathers. Surely all of you are from (Prophet) Adam and Adam was (created) from mud. Surely the best servant of Allah is that servant who has consciousness of Him.” Sirah bin Hisham, Volume 2, Page 412; al-Kafi, Volume 8, Page 246.

He(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) also said Who ever has a mustard seed amount of racism in his heart cannot enter Heaven.

On 10/15/2020 at 12:30 PM, Northwest said:

 

I’m sorry if I sound racist, but these issues are tormenting me, and I have high-functioning autism, Asperger’s syndrome to be precise. Even Iranian sources report that people with Asperger’s tend to be antisocial, which may explain why NWO types like Mark Zuckerberg try to patronise them, as he and his big-tech ilk do sexual deviants, disabled people, et al.

Source

Let me offer you one advice which can help you. It's pretty obvious you aren't here to learn about Islam rather than nitpick. The problem with people like you is that you will remove 99.9% of good things and focus on the 0.01% garbage which may or may not exist. You should perhaps go study a more socially acceptable religion in your setting like Christianity or Judaism or remain agnostic. You're a product of your own society so it's not really your own fault that you have malice in your heart. 

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Ofcourse it means it's wrong. Any hadith which goes against Mainstream hadith beliefs and the Quran is wrong. For example this is what the Quran says about racism: -> Meant to write this is what the Hadith says about racism, wrote Quran instead. * Can't edit. 

Wasalam.

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On 10/10/2020 at 7:22 PM, Northwest said:

Does anyone have the grading for each of these narrations? I’m not saying they’re right.

Quote

As it is said above, to understand the term "Anti-semit" one needs to understand the term "SEMIT" first. Everyone who is called "SEMIT" is the offrspring of the lineage of prophet Noah and SEM or SHAM (عليه السلام) ( SHEM in hebrew ). Within the direct descendants of SHEM, we can find Abraham, Isma'il, Ishaaq, Jacob and his 12 sons, Moses, Jesus ( (عليه السلام) to all) and Holy Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). the promissed holy land from the Nile to the Euphrate river was offered to Abraham and his Sons according to The Torah in Genesis 17:8

Shem, Ham, and Japheth: skin colour, behavioural traits, dispersion (exile), settlement, and Allah’s “signs”

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Nasir al-Din Tusi: Rawda-yi taslim

(The paradise of Submission)
Taken from: Nasir al-Din Tusi; The paradise of Submission: A medieval Treatise on Ismaili thought (1201-1274)

P 61 man is superior to all animals on account of the powers of discursive reason and discrimination superadded to him. Now, if one starts at the beginning and follows the (various kinds) of human beings through, one by one, for example, from the negro of Zanzibar (Zangi dar Zangibar) in the extreme south who, apart from having his hands off the ground, does not differ from animals in any particular way – except for that which God wishes, and many have observed that an ape is easier to train and more receptive than a negro of Zanzibar –up through persons who have an upright comportment (ras surat) balanced temperament and physical condition, an even size and stature, and supreme beauty and grace, who have competence and shrewdness in the affairs of live…..

Source

More information (see also here)

From the latter:

Quote

The literature surveyed here, however, no examples of sexual relations between white males and black females were encountered (p. 25)

Hardly anything good is said about blacks ... especially the Zanj ... there were many groups of slaves in Iran, and only blacks were the subject of violent racial attacks (p. 26)

Iran was devastated by Turks and Mongols, yet nowhere in its literature are these invaders hated and feared as blacks are (p. 26)

...

Quote

Here is the famous story of the Narjis, mother of Imaam Mahdee (عليه السلام) being a Roman princess and being sold into slavery in order to marry our 11th Imaam (عليه السلام). Her name is really Narjis, but the LONG story of her being a Roman princess and being sold into slavery is mawDoo’ (Fabricated). ...

One of the reasons for this fabricated story could be to make the mother of our 12th Imaam (عليه السلام) come from a noble lineage as his father (Imaam Al-'Askaree (AS)) is already from a noble lineage. ... There have been other aHaadeeth that shows the mother of Imaam Mahdee (عليه السلام) being a black slave, but the authenticity of these reports has not been determined. Wallaahu A'lim (And Allaah knows best).

Source

Quote
I came across this SaHeeH (Authentic) hadeeth. According to this hadeeth, our 12th Imaam’s mother was a black bondswoman (female slave). After mentioning this narration, I will discuss one of the narrators (Yazeed Aboo Khaalid al-Kunaasee).
 
 
أخبرنا أحمد بن محمد بن سعيد ابن عقدة قال حدثنا محمد بن المفضل بن قيس بن رمانة الأشعري و سعدان بن إسحاق بن سعيد و أحمد بن الحسين بن عبد الملك و محمد بن الحسن القطواني قالوا جميعا حدثنا الحسن بن محبوب الزراد عن هشام بن سالم عن يزيد الكناسي قال سمعت أبا جعفر محمد بن علي الباقر ع يقول إن صاحب هذا الأمر فيه شبه من يوسف ابن أمة سوداء يصلح الله عز و جل له أمره في ليلة واحدة
 
From Yazeed al-Kunaasee said, I heard Abaa Ja`far Muhammad bin `Alee al-Baaqir (عليه السلام), he said: “Verily, the master of this affair (i.e. al-Qaa’im) in him is resemblance of Yoosuf (عليه السلام), he is the son of a black bondswoman (female slave), and Allaah (عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ) will reform his affair in one night”
Source:
1.     Al-Nu`maani, Kitaab al-Ghaybah, ch. 13, pg. 228, hadeeth # 8
2.     Al-Nu`maani, Kitaab al-Ghaybah, pg. 163, hadeeth # 3
 
...
 
  • Many of mothers of the Imams were from Africa but it's not necessarily that they were having very dark complexion. Berber women from Magreb are not so dark, as well as the women of Sudan

     
     
 
Source

 

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Indeed we do know that H. Shem was probably the 'best' of the 3 because Prophet Ibrahim, Muhammad, as well as all the Hebrew prophets were descended from him. I am unaware that there are any prophets descended from Ham or Japheth.

Quote

The Jewish (Talmudic) scholars, he said, advanced two explanations for Ham and his children being turned black. According to Brackman, “The more important version of the myth, however, ingeniously ties in the origins of blackness — and of other, real and imagined Negroid traits — with Noah’s Curse itself. According to it, Ham (or his son Canaan – ed.) is told by his outraged father that, because you have abused me in the darkness of the night, your children shall be born black and ugly; because you have twisted your head to cause me embarrassment, they shall have kinky hair and red eyes; because your lips jested at my exposure, theirs shall swell; and because you neglected my nakedness, they shall go naked with their shamefully elongated male members exposed for all to see.” 

Louis Ginzberg’s Legends of the Jews (pages 168-170)

The descendants of Ham through Canaan therefore have red eyes, because Ham looked upon the nakedness of his father; they have misshapen lips, because Ham spoke with his lips to his brothers about the unseemly condition of his father; they have twisted curly hair, because Ham turned and twisted his head round to see the nakedness of his father; and they go about naked, because Ham did not cover the nakedness of his father. Thus he was requited, for it is the way of God to mete out punishment measure for measure. ...

The last will and testament of Canaan addressed to his children read as follows: “Speak not the truth; hold not yourselves aloof from theft; lead a dissolute life; hate your master with an exceeding great hate; and love one another.” ...

Naked the descendants of Ham, the Egyptians and Ethiopians, were led away captive and into exile by the king of Assyria, while the descendants of Shem, the Assyrians, even when the angel of the Lord burnt them in the camp, were not exposed, their garments remained upon their corpses unsinged. And in time to come, when Gog shall suffer his defeat, God will provide both shrouds and a place of burial for him and all his multitude, the posterity of Japheth.

Source

Quote

Chapter 28 – The reason due to which there came to be among the people, the Blacks, and the Turks, and Al-Saqaliba, and Gog and Magog حدثنا علي بن أحمد بن محمد رضى هللا عنه قال: حدثنا محمد بن أبي عبد هللا الكوفي قال: حدثنا سهل بن زياد اآلدمي قال: حدثنا عبد العظيم بن عبد هللا الحسني قال: سمعت علي بن محمد العسكري عليه السالم يقول: عاش نوح عليه السالم الفين وخمسمائة سنة، وكان يوما في السفينة نائما، فهبت ريح فكشفت عن عورته فضحك حام ويافث، فزجرهما سام عليه السالم ونهاهما عن الضحك، وكان كلما غطى سام شيئا تكشفه الريح كشفه حام ويافث Ali Bin Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Muhammad Bin Abu Abdullah Al Kufy, from Sahl Bin Ziyad Al Admy, from Abdul Azeem Bin Abdullah Al Hasany who said,

‘I heard Aliasws Bin Muhammad Al-Askaryasws saying: ‘Noahas lived for two thousand five hundred years. One day heas asleep in the ship, so a wind descended and uncovered hisas honour. So Haam and Yaafas laughed, and Saamas rebuked them and forbid them from the laughing. And every time Saamas covered something which the wind uncovered, Haam and Yafas would uncover it. فانتبه نوح عليه السالم فرآهم وهم يضحكون فقال ماهذا؟ فاخبره سام بما كان، فرفع نوح عليه السالم يده إلى السماء يدعو ويقول: اللهم غير، ماء صلب حام، حتى ال يولد له إال السودان، اللهم غير ماء صلب يافث فغير هللا ماء صلبهما،

So Noahas paid attention to it and saw them, and they were laughing. So heas said: ‘What is this?’ So, Saamas informed himas of what had happened. So Noahas raised hisas hands to the sky and supplicated and was saying: ‘O Allahazwj! Change the water (seed) of Haam until he does not beget except for the black. O Allahazwj! Change the water (seed) of Yafas!’ So Allahazwj Changed the water of their ribs. فجميع السودان حيث كانوا من حام، وجميع الترك والسقالبة ويأجوج ومأجوج والصين من يافث حيث كانوا، وجميع البيض سواهم من سام،

Therefore, all the black (people), wherever they may be, are from Haam, and all of the Turks and Al-Saqaliba, and Gog, and Magod, and the Chinese, are from Yafas wherever they may be, and all the white, besides them, are from Saamas . وقال نوح " ع " لحام ويافث: جعل هللا ذريتكما خوال لذرية سام إلى يوم القيامة، النه بر بى وعققتمانى، فال زالت سمة عقوقكما لي في ذريتكما ظاهرة وسمة البر بى في ذرية سام ظاهرة ما بقيت الدنيا.

And Noahas said to Haam and Yafas: ‘Allahazwj has Made the offspring of the both of you as followers to the offspring of Saamas up to the Day of Judgement, because heas was righteous with meas and your (both) being disobedient to me. So the traits of disobedience of the both of you would not cease to be in the offspring of you both, in the apparent, nor would the traits of righteousness cease to be in the offspring of Saamas, in the apparent, for as long as the world remains’.42 )باب 29 - العلة

Source, pp. 33–4

Quote

ل ُُم َ ) عليه السالم ( ق ِ اللَّه ِ د ْ ب َ ع َ اء َ ر َْسْ وا ُ َّوج َ َز َي ) عليه السالم ( ت ِ ن ِ م ْ ؤ ُ الْم ُ ْي ِ اَل أَم َ ق ا . َ ه ُ ر ْ ه َ م َّ َي ل َ َع ا ف َ َه ت ْ ْن َكِره ِ إ َ ف ا ة َ وع ُ ب ْ ر َ م َ اء َ ز ْ َج ع َ اء َ ن ْ ي Muhammad Bin Yahya, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad Bin Isa, from Mallik Bin Asheym, from one of his men, (It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullahasws having said: ‘Amir AlMomineenasws said: ‘Marry a brunette (nor very white nor too dark), of large eyes (and) buttocks, of a medium stature, so if you dislike her, then her dowry would be upon measws’.15

Source, p. 10

Quote

Reliable tradition of Imam as-Sadiq mentions that after embarking from the ship, Nuh lived for five hundred years. ... Accordingly Nuh handed over “The Greatest Name”, and the Prophetic relics to his son Sam. Ham and Yusuf had no knowledge from which they could benefit themselves. ... After some time oppression and deviation found roots in the children of Ham. Sam went into hiding with the relics. After Nuh Sam got the wealth of Ham and Yafith and they became dominant over them. It is for this that Allah says: “And We perpetuated to him (praise) among the later generations.”

Source

So, according to these narrations, most of the Prophets and other Infallible Representatives were disproportionately Semitic, that is, of the line of Shem, and supposedly Ham and Japheth were punished for their sins against Prophet Noah by having their biology changed. And their progeny inherited the genetic as well as spiritual traits from their forefathers, while scattering away from the lands of Shem, and being mostly deprived of prophetic and other guidance, hence the development of paganism among the offspring of Ham and Japheth.

So is race, on balance, linked to spirituality in some sense, however broadly and generally, given that there will always be isolated, righteous exceptions within a generally unrighteous line of descent? Obviously, reliable narrations clearly state, in line with the Qur’ān, that lineage does not imply superiority, while only piety and virtue do. However, what if race is a general indicator of how spiritually righteous a line of descent has been in its history?

In other words, while racism is strictly forbidden in Islam, does Islam also permit some general precautions against marrying certain groups whose race may, on balance, generally indicate a history of unrighteous behaviour, with some exceptions appearing now and then along the line of descent? Again, I am not saying that the narrations above are reliable, but I would like an answer as to how reliable their chain(s) are.

@Ashvazdanghe What do some learned scholars say about the traditions I listed above?

Even if they were somehow reliable, obviously Islam wouldn’t stigmatise an entire race, because at least a few righteous and devout men might still emerge from that race, and thus Islam wouldn’t want to alienate potential reverts by publicly espousing blanket racism.

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11 hours ago, Northwest said:

Source

Source, pp. 33–4

Source, p. 10

Source

So, according to these narrations, most of the Prophets and other Infallible Representatives were disproportionately Semitic, that is, of the line of Shem, and supposedly Ham and Japheth were punished for their sins against Prophet Noah by having their biology changed. And their progeny inherited the genetic as well as spiritual traits from their forefathers, while scattering away from the lands of Shem, and being mostly deprived of prophetic and other guidance, hence the development of paganism among the offspring of Ham and Japheth.

So is race, on balance, linked to spirituality in some sense, however broadly and generally, given that there will always be isolated, righteous exceptions within a generally unrighteous line of descent? Obviously, reliable narrations clearly state, in line with the Qur’ān, that lineage does not imply superiority, while only piety and virtue do. However, what if race is a general indicator of how spiritually righteous a line of descent has been in its history?

In other words, while racism is strictly forbidden in Islam, does Islam also permit some general precautions against marrying certain groups whose race may, on balance, generally indicate a history of unrighteous behaviour, with some exceptions appearing now and then along the line of descent? Again, I am not saying that the narrations above are reliable, but I would like an answer as to how reliable their chain(s) are.

@Ashvazdanghe What do some learned scholars say about the traditions I listed above?

Even if they were somehow reliable, obviously Islam wouldn’t stigmatise an entire race, because at least a few righteous and devout men might still emerge from that race, and thus Islam wouldn’t want to alienate potential reverts by publicly espousing blanket racism.

Salam.

There is certainly something about lineage and the history of your own ancestors.  Some men can see your lineage from your face (I am not just talking about physical attributes obviously but more subtle qualities). Because you carry them in you. Tribalism was very significant in terms of the status of people.  A tribe was known for certain qualities such as bravery, honesty, generosity.. etc  Black African Americans Carry their African roots within them and their qualities.  There is definitely something about it, but As Muslims this just means that we should learn more about our ancestors.  By knowing about them we may come to know more about ourselves.  People decry, for example, the caste system of India as an absolute evil!  But there might be something to it, a wisdom behind it that was eventually lost leaving only an outer shell of it for people to exploit and abuse.  

in Islam you have the Sharifs or the Sayyeds.  A certain kind of respect and honor ought to be given to them purely for the fact that they are Seyyeds, even if they happen to be major sinners.  (I am not a Seyyed or a Sharif by the way so I have no personal stake in this).  But if I come to know of someone who is in the line of the Prophet (S) and his Family (عليه السلام), then I will feel obliged to show some kind of respect in honor of the Prophet (S) and his Family (عليه السلام), not in honor of what that person does.  

But Islam doesn’t emphasize this so much, in the sense that there aren’t strict rules associated with this.  The only rule I can think of is about whether an illegitimately born individual can lead the prayers, or can become a leader (like a marja) etc....  one would like to ask what wrong did such a person do to be born illegitimately?  

So all I am saying is that there is something significant to all this which we seem to have lost.  I don’t think there is anything we can do about it in a practically major way except maybe to appreciate the fact each and every one of us are not isolated and self contained individuals.  Our history lives deep within us and we carry that whether we are aware of it or not.  
 

:)

 

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On 11/24/2020 at 6:02 PM, Northwest said:

Source

Source, pp. 33–4

Source, p. 10

Source

So, according to these narrations, most of the Prophets and other Infallible Representatives were disproportionately Semitic, that is, of the line of Shem, and supposedly Ham and Japheth were punished for their sins against Prophet Noah by having their biology changed. And their progeny inherited the genetic as well as spiritual traits from their forefathers, while scattering away from the lands of Shem, and being mostly deprived of prophetic and other guidance, hence the development of paganism among the offspring of Ham and Japheth.

So is race, on balance, linked to spirituality in some sense, however broadly and generally, given that there will always be isolated, righteous exceptions within a generally unrighteous line of descent? Obviously, reliable narrations clearly state, in line with the Qur’ān, that lineage does not imply superiority, while only piety and virtue do. However, what if race is a general indicator of how spiritually righteous a line of descent has been in its history?

In other words, while racism is strictly forbidden in Islam, does Islam also permit some general precautions against marrying certain groups whose race may, on balance, generally indicate a history of unrighteous behaviour, with some exceptions appearing now and then along the line of descent? Again, I am not saying that the narrations above are reliable, but I would like an answer as to how reliable their chain(s) are.

@Ashvazdanghe What do some learned scholars say about the traditions I listed above?

Even if they were somehow reliable, obviously Islam wouldn’t stigmatise an entire race, because at least a few righteous and devout men might still emerge from that race, and thus Islam wouldn’t want to alienate potential reverts by publicly espousing blanket racism.

Quote

A daeef hadith simply means the authenticity of which isn't firmly established. ... You can’t just discard a hadith whose authenticity has not been established as it could still be the word of Masoom.

Quote
Furthermore, I find it utterly useless that when I send questions directly to the office of my marja (not his representative) I get the replies back in Farsi. Why even bother sending reply that is useless to me? If he is able to read the question in English, surely he can have his response translated back for my use! :mad:

While this can be very frustrating at the same time I think you have to understand that the offices of the marjas are not that advanced. If you knew how the offices work then you would realise why the answers come in Farsi/Arabic or why the answers are vague.

Ask someone who has worked in the office of a marja and you will see what I mean then.

Quote

No. There is no role of our like or dislike. If there are several most learned scholars in different issues you have to follow each of them in their respective fields.

For example:

Mujtahid A is most learned in Banking issues.

Mujtahid B is most learned in Medical issues.

You will follow Mujtahid A Banking issues and Mujtahid B in Medical issues.

You will still have to find who is most learned in different fields. You cannot resort to whoever you like.

WS

 

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On 11/16/2020 at 5:59 AM, Northwest said:

Taken from: Nasir al-Din Tusi; The paradise of Submission: A medieval Treatise on Ismaili thought (1201-1274)

P 61 man is superior to all animals on account of the powers of discursive reason and discrimination superadded to him. Now, if one starts at the beginning and follows the (various kinds) of human beings through, one by one, for example, from the negro of Zanzibar (Zangi dar Zangibar) in the extreme south who, apart from having his hands off the ground, does not differ from animals in any particular way – except for that which God wishes, and many have observed that an ape is easier to train and more receptive than a negro of Zanzibar –up through persons who have an upright comportment (ras surat) balanced temperament and physical condition, an even size and stature, and supreme beauty and grace, who have competence and shrewdness in the affairs of live…..

Damn. This sounds quite racist. Was he calling them animals because of the lack of pure Tawhid, animalistic practices, general traits like a deficiency in intellect (I don't know how he'd come to such conclusion as there was no IQ test back then) or because of the colour of their skin?

Edited by 313_Waiter
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21 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Damn. This sounds quite racist. Was he calling them animals because of the lack of pure Tawhid, animalistic practices, general traits like a deficiency in intellect (I don't know how he'd come to such conclusion as there was no IQ test back then) or because of the colour of their skin?

I live in the place he is referring to - Zanzibar. These people have been Muslims for the longest. Majority of their words are taken from Arabic mixed with their language (Bantu). However, it is referring to the entire Eastern Region of Africa as it was once one, if I remember correctly. This includes Abyssinia, Somalia, Tanzania, Uganda, etc. These are the same people who accepted Islam - the first nation to accept Islam after the Arabs. 

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Does anyone know if there is anything to the notion that spiritual purity is genetically transmitted? For example, are certain races and/or demographics predisposed to immorality from birth? Additionally, most of the Prophets et al. are said to be of the (physical or spiritual or both?) lineage of Shem, Muslims are ordered not to marry non-Muslims, the Qur’ān condemns the wayward Jews and the polytheists, and so on (the Israelites having been previously told not to marry non-Israelites, lest they be contaminated, spiritually or otherwise, but violated this commandment). Finally, if someone is born to non-Muslim parents, non-Semitic parents—in a corresponding society—then did that person do something wrong in the World of Particles and is thus predestined to Hell? How fatalistic is Shia Islam in this regard? Narrations tend to give mixed signals. What about psychopaths and certain people who are seemingly born without a conscience?

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On 1/1/2021 at 6:02 PM, Northwest said:

Does anyone know if there is anything to the notion that spiritual purity is genetically transmitted? For example, are certain races and/or demographics predisposed to immorality from birth? Additionally, most of the Prophets et al. are said to be of the (physical or spiritual or both?) lineage of Shem, Muslims are ordered not to marry non-Muslims, the Qur’ān condemns the wayward Jews and the polytheists, and so on (the Israelites having been previously told not to marry non-Israelites, lest they be contaminated, spiritually or otherwise, but violated this commandment). Finally, if someone is born to non-Muslim parents, non-Semitic parents—in a corresponding society—then did that person do something wrong in the World of Particles and is thus predestined to Hell? How fatalistic is Shia Islam in this regard? Narrations tend to give mixed signals. What about psychopaths and certain people who are seemingly born without a conscience?

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The notion of interfaith or interreligious dialogue or unity is a modern phenomenon that sprung out of the modern secular state. For much of human history, there was no concept of interfaith or interreligious unity, because it made no sense to be on good terms with someone you fundamentally and theologically disagreed with and considered them to be hell-bound. ... You can pick up any scholar from the classical period, up until recently with the likes of Sayyid al-Khu'i and Imam Khomeini, and you will find that everyone (minus perhaps a few reformist scholars in contemporary times) believed that Sunnis, in reality, are like disbelievers and polytheists, whose actions are not accepted and we only treat them as Muslims apparently in this world. ... This theological premise then, of course, begins to show in your jurisprudence when it is allowed to backbite the Sunnis because they are not considered our brothers and believers...it allows you to accuse them falsely...and as a matter of fact it leaves no room for you to discuss "unity" with them.

Historically, up until the advent of the Enlightenment and European imperialism, religious communities kept to themselves and would impose capital punishment on schismatics, heretics, deviants, et al. who were publicly proclaiming and/or disseminating their beliefs within the community. In this respect, orthodox Islam was/is no different from Judaism, Christianity, and so on. Realistically, then, for most of human history individuals were born into religious communities and could not be expected to realise their faith was the “wrong” one and thus seek out/adopt another. This brings me back to the question of the World of Particles. Is our fate already decided prior to birth, based on our response to God and His Representative in the World of Particles, and the environment, lineage, society, etc. into which we are born reflects our deepest intention? Therefore, are we already predestined from birth and can only choose to believe or disbelieve prior to birth, in the World of Particles? So if I was born into a non-Muslim family and deprived of access, one way or another, to orthodoxy, then I made the choice to be born into that family, society, etc. and thus am already predestined for a certain fate in the Hereafter?

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