Question About Usulis

[suus]

Salam,

I hope you're all well today, insha'Allah.

I'm usuli, and I believe in the importance of ijtihad, and I believe in the importance of seeking knowledge from the more knowledgeable.

However, recently I've been thinking of a few things. Why the importance of completely following a whole marjaa'?

What I mean is, following those who are more knowledgeable in certain matters, and more able to derive rulings from the Qur'an and the Sunnah of our Holy prophet (pbuh) and his family (as) is important, but why completely submit to one? What if I'm following a certain marjaa' at the moment, but then I do some research and find that one thing my mujtahid says is different that another one, and that one particular thing makes more sense to me with the other mujtahid?

I don't know why some of us take it as a loyalty issue. I'm most loyal to Allah and His chosen ones, therefore if there is like x number of marjaa's, why should I be restricted to the rulings of only ONE, when maybe another one has SOME rulings that are more reasonable (according the Qur'an and the Sunnah)?

For example, let's say I'm following marjaa' *x*, and there are a number of very logical rulings, but then there is a ruling 'y' that does not really make sense. I then find that marjaa' *w*has a different ruling for ruling 'y', which is much more logical when one does his research. I don't want to change marjaa's, because mine has so much rulings that when I research about them, I find they are all true.

We can't say both marjaa's are correct about ruling 'y', because they are completely different verdicts and it would be a lie to say they are both right. What am I supposed to do in this situation? Why completely submit to marjaa' *x* when that one ruling is not correct in my point of view?

WE will be asked about what we followed, no body else. So why should I risk it?

I'm asking sincerely, because this is really driving me crazy.

[AL-HIDAYA]

Salam,

I hope you're all well today, insha'Allah.

I'm usuli, and I believe in the importance of ijtihad, and I believe in the importance of seeking knowledge from the more knowledgeable.

However, recently I've been thinking of a few things. Why the importance of completely following a whole marjaa'?

What I mean is, following those who are more knowledgeable in certain matters, and more able to derive rulings from the Qur'an and the Sunnah of our Holy prophet (pbuh) and his family (as) is important, but why completely submit to one? What if I'm following a certain marjaa' at the moment, but then I do some research and find that one thing my mujtahid says is different that another one, and that one particular thing makes more sense to me with the other mujtahid?

I don't know why some of us take it as a loyalty issue. I'm most loyal to Allah and His chosen ones, therefore if there is like x number of marjaa's, why should I be restricted to the rulings of only ONE, when maybe another one has SOME rulings that are more reasonable (according the Qur'an and the Sunnah)?

For example, let's say I'm following marjaa' *x*, and there are a number of very logical rulings, but then there is a ruling 'y' that does not really make sense. I then find that marjaa' *w*has a different ruling for ruling 'y', which is much more logical when one does his research. I don't want to change marjaa's, because mine has so much rulings that when I research about them, I find they are all true.

We can't say both marjaa's are correct about ruling 'y', because they are completely different verdicts and it would be a lie to say they are both right. What am I supposed to do in this situation? Why completely submit to marjaa' *x* when that one ruling is not correct in my point of view?

WE will be asked about what we followed, no body else. So why should I risk it?

I'm asking sincerely, because this is really driving me crazy.

Bismi Allah Errahmane errahime

Salam alaykum wa rahmatou Allah Taala wa barakatouHou

Allahouma salli ala Muhammad wa Al Muhammad

Your question is very interesting and in my side I find it logical...The most important is to be enlightened by a wise demonstration with strong references in Quran , ahadiths ...and that our deep intention is to following what seems really to us the most coherent and what would be pleased to Allah Subhannou, and the Messenger salla Allah Alayhi wa salam and Alihi alayheem essalam...

Salam wa rahmatou Allah Taala wa barakatouHou

Wa Salat wa salam ala Muhammad wa Al Muhammad da'iman ilal abad

[khud-sakhta-mufti-sahab]

Salam,

I hope you're all well today, insha'Allah.

I'm usuli, and I believe in the importance of ijtihad, and I believe in the importance of seeking knowledge from the more knowledgeable.

However, recently I've been thinking of a few things. Why the importance of completely following a whole marjaa'?

What I mean is, following those who are more knowledgeable in certain matters, and more able to derive rulings from the Qur'an and the Sunnah of our Holy prophet (pbuh) and his family (as) is important, but why completely submit to one? What if I'm following a certain marjaa' at the moment, but then I do some research and find that one thing my mujtahid says is different that another one, and that one particular thing makes more sense to me with the other mujtahid?

I don't know why some of us take it as a loyalty issue. I'm most loyal to Allah and His chosen ones, therefore if there is like x number of marjaa's, why should I be restricted to the rulings of only ONE, when maybe another one has SOME rulings that are more reasonable (according the Qur'an and the Sunnah)?

For example, let's say I'm following marjaa' *x*, and there are a number of very logical rulings, but then there is a ruling 'y' that does not really make sense. I then find that marjaa' *w*has a different ruling for ruling 'y', which is much more logical when one does his research. I don't want to change marjaa's, because mine has so much rulings that when I research about them, I find they are all true.

We can't say both marjaa's are correct about ruling 'y', because they are completely different verdicts and it would be a lie to say they are both right. What am I supposed to do in this situation? Why completely submit to marjaa' *x* when that one ruling is not correct in my point of view?

WE will be asked about what we followed, no body else. So why should I risk it?

I'm asking sincerely, because this is really driving me crazy.

This is an old post but since I'm a new member I decided to share a few thoughts. Regarding the following only one mujtahid issue, I believe there are some marja who do allow tabid(if I remember correctly, Ayatollah Mutahhiri, Ayatullah Khamenei and Ayatullah Jawad Lankarani do allow it). That is, you can follow multiple marja as per their specialty. For example if marja A is A'lam in ibadaat, then you do his taqlid in ibaadat. If marja B is A'lam in ba'y, you do his taqlid in ba'y. And so on.

But, what you have to realize is that taqlid means submitting totally to your marja in fiqhi issues. So your saying that "after research this or that makes more sense to me..." is irrelevant in this case. You can do tabid(if your marja allows) but to choose particular marjas for particular affairs you have to refer to ahlul khibra. You can't do it by what makes sense to you cuz that would be defeating the whole purpose of taqlid.

[suus]

You can't do it by what makes sense to you cuz that would be defeating the whole purpose of taqlid.

Yah i know that. What I was saying is there is a verdict i CANT do bcuz i completely disagre with. I didn't say im going to find the answer myself and work on it!! All i said is I don't agree with my marjaa' on that specific issue, and I'd like to get the ruling from another aalim.

And when i said "what makes sense" I meant that instead of blind-following, I usually research the reason behind every verdict, and this time I strongly disagreed. I was saying I want to get the ruling from another marjaa and work on his basis.

Btw Sayed Sistani allows you to see the moon yourself for the new month in Ramadan and fast accordingly, or if you have two trustworthy witnesses. So all I was saying is that this 100 % submitting thing to only ONE makes no sense to me, and probably makes no sense to the mujtahid either.

[khud-sakhta-mufti-sahab]

Yah i know that. What I was saying is there is a verdict i CANT do bcuz i completely disagre with. I didn't say im going to find the answer myself and work on it!! All i said is I don't agree with my marjaa' on that specific issue, and I'd like to get the ruling from another aalim.

And when i said "what makes sense" I meant that instead of blind-following, I usually research the reason behind every verdict, and this time I strongly disagreed. I was saying I want to get the ruling from another marjaa and work on his basis.

Btw Sayed Sistani allows you to see the moon yourself for the new month in Ramadan and fast accordingly, or if you have two trustworthy witnesses. So all I was saying is that this 100 % submitting thing to only ONE makes no sense to me, and probably makes no sense to the mujtahid either.

Look bro, it seems you didn't fully understand what I said so this time I'd be more explicit. First of all, if you've been through the right procedure that is you referred to ahlul khibra and they said marja X is a'lam then you should follow his rulings (including the one on ta'bid) without further investigation. That is what's meant by taqlid. You see, in aqaid you are supposed to thoroughly investigate and then adopt an ideology but in fiqhi issues you have to investigate and determine who fulfills the criteria of marja'ia and as an obligatory precaution the a'lamia as well; after that's done you have to follow the marja's ruling without further investigation.

You see, I often see some 'modern' shias complaining that they sent an email to their marja's office regarding a ruling as well as the reasoning behind it but the reply was just a one liner stating the ruling. These people are ignoring the fundamental rule of taqlid which is that you follow the mujtahid without questioning. The marja is not obliged to justify his ruling to his muqllids. If you don't agree with a ruling because it seems fundamentally wrong, then go confirm with ahlul khibra the mujtahid's credentials. If they are satisfied then you do what the mujtahid says, period. Of course, if he says Obligatory precaution then you may consult another mujtahid. As for the issue about moon sighting, let me clarify that AFAIK all mujtahids allow sighting the moon yourself or relying on 2 just witnesses. No mujtahid says you have to celebrate eid all over the world as per the moon sighting announced by his office in Najaf/Qum. It's only ignorant people who say today's eid cuz "my marja says so". Don't let that put you off.

Lastly, if you are doing taqlid then you are not really supposed to "research the reason behind every verdict". You may do so but with the understanding that it has no weightage at all. That's what muqllid means, you just emulate your mujtahid.

Edited December 13, 2010 by khud-sakhta-mufti-sahab

[suus]

Lastly, if you are doing taqlid then you are not really supposed to "research the reason behind every verdict". You may do so but with the understanding that it has no weightage at all. That's what muqllid means, you just emulate your mujtahid.

Honestly, I don't think if you investigate further it's wrong. What if it puts my soul at peace to search a specific verdict. Anywho, they are fallible and so are we, there is no harm in searching further.

[14infallibles]

(salam)

The only way you can say that ruling "y" is wrong or illogical is by actually becoming a mujtahid. The reason why we do taqlid is because we are not mujtahids. We have not studied as much as the maraji' to be able to figure out which rulings are "illogical" or "wrong".

When one has not even studied fiqh or usul al fiqh for one year, how can they say that ruling x of marja' y is wrong when this marja has studied fiqh and usul al fiqh for more than 10 years?

Edited December 13, 2010 by 14infallibles

[suus]

(salam)

The only way you can say that ruling "y" is wrong or illogical is by actually becoming a mujtahid. The reason why we do taqlid is because we are not mujtahids. We have not studied as much as the maraji' to be able to figure out which rulings are "illogical" or "wrong".

Like, I understand that, but if you're not 100 % sure of something and follow it because you "have to follow it no matter what", don't you get judged by Allah if it were wrong? I mean we were given a mind.

Because everytime I read about the Imams, like imam Jaafar al Sadiq (as), whenever someone would ask them a question or was unsure of something, they would get a response, or an explanation. Why should the shia of that time be better than us? Why can't we demand explanations?

[khud-sakhta-mufti-sahab]

Honestly, I don't think if you investigate further it's wrong. What if it puts my soul at peace to search a specific verdict. Anywho, they are fallible and so are we, there is no harm in searching further.

I never said investigating further is wrong. I said that as a muqallid, you are supposed to do as told without questioning or any further investigation. As I said earlier, you may still do your investigation if you want but keep in mind it has no practical value. That is it can not be and should not be used for driving a ruling or judging your marja's ruling.

[khud-sakhta-mufti-sahab]

Like, I understand that, but if you're not 100 % sure of something and follow it because you "have to follow it no matter what", don't you get judged by Allah if it were wrong? I mean we were given a mind.

Well, that's what taqlid means. As for being judged by Allah(SWT), well the usooli position is that by following the marja recommended by ahlul khibra you have fulfilled your duty. In case if the marja was wrong, in fact he will be wrong sometimes since he's not infallible, you won't be responsible for it. Since Allah(SWT) is Adil, insh'Allah the marja won't be punished either as long as his intentions were sincere.

Anyhow, in case anyone gets any wrong ideas, I'm an ex usooli. I'm an akhbari. The reason I've been acting as the mouthpiece of usoolis is that it's very dangerous when ignorant people who know jack about ahadith start questioning maraja and instead of actually following the akhbaar, resort to following "common sense"(read personal opinion). For these people it's much better if they just stick to a mainstream marja and follow him to the letter. Note: Bro, this is not meant at you. I'm speaking in general here.

Because everytime I read about the Imams, like imam Jaafar al Sadiq (as), whenever someone would ask them a question or was unsure of something, they would get a response, or an explanation. Why should the shia of that time be better than us? Why can't we demand explanations?

Well now let me tell you as an akhbari that it is not exactly as you seem to put it. Basically we have ahadith where the Imams(AS) stated that it's obligatory for people to ask them(instead of doing as they please) but it's not their duty to always answer them. So as you can see there are things which are unanswered eventhough they are very important and people must have been dying to know them and they did ask about them such as the duration of ghayba, the exact night of qadr etc.

Besides, if you read ahadith books dedicated to "explanations" such as Illal ul sharai, you'll notice that even the Imams(AS) didn't always give a "logical" or "philosophical" answer. Often the answer for the explanation of X fiqhi ruling is simply "because Rasool Allah and his brother Ali did so...".

So basically don't expect "logical" answers for fiqhi issues to make them more palatable to people. There are various reasons for this and it's not possible to cover all of them. Lastly, if you have sound aqeeda, that is you believe Allah(SWT) is all wise all knowing and the authorities appointed by Him are to be unconditionally followed then you must follow islamic rulings without criticizing them as per your limited knowledge.

Lastly, believe me, what may seem "common sense" to you today may be "non sense" for you after 3 years.

Edited December 13, 2010 by khud-sakhta-mufti-sahab

[realizm]

I think, and it is my personnal opinion, that form of taqleed was useful when religious resources were not available, and thus you had to choose your marja and stick to his decrees.

By definition, when a scholar says something, shouldn't we accept him as more knowledgeable than us and consider what he says is true, regardless of what other scholars can say ?

[suus]

The reason I've been acting as the mouthpiece of usoolis is that it's very dangerous when ignorant people who know jack about ahadith start questioning maraja and instead of actually following the akhbaar, resort to following "common sense"(read personal opinion). For these people it's much better if they just stick to a mainstream marja and follow him to the letter. Note: Bro, this is not meant at you. I'm speaking in general here.

I know you mean well with this statement, but when I said "doesn't make sense", I didn't mean that with regards to COMMON sense. I have a lot of our hadith books, and many of our books as online versions, and when I read hadiths concerning ruling "x", its different than what I read with that regard in a certain hadith.

I don't know, I guess every aalim has his own way of accepting narrators or rejecting narrators. I even heard that when there are conflicting hadiths with regards to a specific topic, and both chains are sahih or good, then they look at what the majority of the Sunnis used to follow at that one time, and they take the one that disagrees with their opinion. Something about taqiyya to be safe against the ruler of the time.

I've been driving myself crazy for almost 2 years now with hadith books and seera books and what not. That's what I meant my my soul is not at rest! I know that 2 years is nothing with regards to a mujtahid, but sometimes I wonder why I read a few things that are completely opposite to their rulings. And it drives me crazy :wacko:

Lastly, believe me, what may seem "common sense" to you today may be "non sense" for you after 3 years.

lol just wanted to remark again that I don't use "common sense" from my brain. If it were to common sense, many things would fall apart. Allah Knows Best.

[khud-sakhta-mufti-sahab]

I know you mean well with this statement, but when I said "doesn't make sense", I didn't mean that with regards to COMMON sense. I have a lot of our hadith books, and many of our books as online versions, and when I read hadiths concerning ruling "x", its different than what I read with that regard in a certain hadith.

I don't know, I guess every aalim has his own way of accepting narrators or rejecting narrators. I even heard that when there are conflicting hadiths with regards to a specific topic, and both chains are sahih or good, then they look at what the majority of the Sunnis used to follow at that one time, and they take the one that disagrees with their opinion. Something about taqiyya to be safe against the ruler of the time.

I've been driving myself crazy for almost 2 years now with hadith books and seera books and what not. That's what I meant my my soul is not at rest! I know that 2 years is nothing with regards to a mujtahid, but sometimes I wonder why I read a few things that are completely opposite to their rulings. And it drives me crazy :wacko:

lol just wanted to remark again that I don't use "common sense" from my brain. If it were to common sense, many things would fall apart. Allah Knows Best.

I hope this doesn't trigger an usooli-akhbari war, but if you have knowledge of ahadith(as you claim to say) then I don't know why you are an usooli in the first place. I mean as I explained earlier you're not exatly doing taqlid as per the usooli ideology. In fact you seem to be rearing to rid yourself of the usooli shackles of taqlid.

Please don't take this personally bro, but reading your post gives the impression that you're not quiet "there" yet. Your use of terminology such as "I've heard..", "like...", "something..." gives the impression that you still need to put in further effort. Until then I would advise you remain a "good boy" usooli.

Lastly, don't worry. You don't have to spend 25 years studying man made subjects such as mantiq, irfan, sarf, nahw, asfar(in fact its author mulla sadra was also an akhbari) and other philosophy books, lum'a, sharh lum'a and other usul and fiqh works to gain the knowledge of halal/haram(which could be learned from studying ahadith books for a few months, or maybe years, depending on dedication of course) so as to lead a pious life. No, I'm not some revolutionary. From Abdullah al samhiji and Amin Astarabadi to Yusuf al Bahrani, these points were raised by them all.

Glad to see you don't follow "common sense" aka qiyas in religion.

[suus]

Please don't take this personally bro, but reading your post gives the impression that you're not quiet "there" yet. Your use of terminology such as "I've heard..", "like...", "something..." gives the impression that you still need to put in further effort. Until then I would advise you remain a "good boy" usooli.

No offense taken, we each have a unique style for judging others. Some pick at little words (which the sayer of the words may have meant them respectfully to maybe not disrespect the person he/she is talking to), some look at habbits, some look at the way they treat others, etc...

Anyways, the Imams have advised us to always ask those more knowledgeable than us and that just what I've always wanted to do. After all we are all supposed to be students of life.

Anyways, thank you for your help.

[Abu Tufayl]

(bismillah)

Common sense cannot be used to judge what's halal/haram and etc. You can't. One's own "logic" or "common sense" will be different from another's. Here's a very good example.

Pretty much any Sunni will say "of course mut'ahs haram, duh! just look what it is" and that's their common sense. Sadly, many "shi'a" take this approach and come to the WRONG conclusions. Another example could be tatoos...

Common sense isn't the dividing line. The hadith of Ahlulbayt (as) and the Qur'an is the criterion.

[Gypsy]

(salam)

What do you mean rulings of marjas differ from one another. I don’t think they differ than much. On the main branches of religion, most of the rulings are almost the same.

Like, I understand that, but if you're not 100 % sure of something and follow it because you "have to follow it no matter what", don't you get judged by Allah if it were wrong? I mean we were given a mind.

Yes. The main problem is how do you know you are wrong? If you have doubt then you find a way to be certain. Taqlid is one approach. Another way is you yourself become knowledgeable scholar/mujtahid. But what about people like us who don’t have the opportunity or the time to study all the branches of Islam to become a mujtahid.

I've been driving myself crazy for almost 2 years now with hadith books and seera books and what not. That's what I meant my my soul is not at rest! I know that 2 years is nothing with regards to a mujtahid, but sometimes I wonder why I read a few things that are completely opposite to their rulings. And it drives me crazy :wacko:

I think your soul is not at rest because you are thirsty for more knowledge. And 2 years is not a long time. I don’t have an exact number of years because it differs from one person. It could be anywhere between 8-10 years. You need to read more books. You will feel different after few more years. Trust me. So don’t stop reading and never feel satisfied with your current state.

Because everytime I read about the Imams, like imam Jaafar al Sadiq (as), whenever someone would ask them a question or was unsure of something, they would get a response, or an explanation. Why should the shia of that time be better than us? Why can't we demand explanations?

We still have their wisdoms in our books. I always felt that they are many books about our faith. People don’t read them enough and sometimes they don’t think or utilize the knowledge and the wisdoms of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and Imams of ahlul bayt in their life. What we read need to be put into practice.

[suus]

(bismillah)

Common sense cannot be used to judge what's halal/haram and etc. You can't. One's own "logic" or "common sense" will be different from another's. Here's a very good example.

Pretty much any Sunni will say "of course mut'ahs haram, duh! just look what it is" and that's their common sense. Sadly, many "shi'a" take this approach and come to the WRONG conclusions. Another example could be tatoos...

Common sense isn't the dividing line. The hadith of Ahlulbayt (as) and the Qur'an is the criterion.

Wallahi I know, read the later comments I made. I didn't mean common sense per my fallible mind... I meant referring to saying and narrations by the beloved ahlul bayt (as).

(salam)

What do you mean rulings of marjas differ from one another. I don’t think they differ than much. On the main branches of religion, most of the rulings are almost the same.

Yes. The main problem is how do you know you are wrong? If you have doubt then you find a way to be certain. Taqlid is one approach. Another way is you yourself become knowledgeable scholar/mujtahid. But what about people like us who don’t have the opportunity or the time to study all the branches of Islam to become a mujtahid.

I think your soul is not at rest because you are thirsty for more knowledge. And 2 years is not a long time. I don’t have an exact number of years because it differs from one person. It could be anywhere between 8-10 years. You need to read more books. You will feel different after few more years. Trust me. So don’t stop reading and never feel satisfied with your current state.

We still have their wisdoms in our books. I always felt that they are many books about our faith. People don’t read them enough and sometimes they don’t think or utilize the knowledge and the wisdoms of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and Imams of ahlul bayt in their life. What we read need to be put into practice.

Thank you sister for such a nice post <3 I agree with everything you said.

And you're right, they don't differ that much. I just always wondered why they differed at all. I mean the knowledge comes from the same source. But I guess they have different approaches to what's sahih and what's not.

(wasalam)

[zeinabiyya]

Perhaps it would help if you arranged a meeting with a sheikh, sayyed, or even marja' if that's possible for you wherever you are.

You may find the answers to your questions, although you may have to try talking with more than one before you find the answer you're looking for.

InshaAllah you'll get there. Don't think there's no answer, because there most definitely is - no marja' puts down a hukm "just because".

wa

[guest 34193]

Out of curiosity, is there a particular ruling you're finding to be in opposition to what you are reading in the ahadith?

[molaayi_from_lahore]

I don't follow any specific Marja. If I find need to find answers for some matter which I dont know already, I ask different marjas and follow any one of them which I find going with most ihtyaat or logica.

[doobybrother]

I've been driving myself crazy for almost 2 years now with hadith books and seera books and what not. That's what I meant my my soul is not at rest! I know that 2 years is nothing with regards to a mujtahid, but sometimes I wonder why I read a few things that are completely opposite to their rulings. And it drives me crazy :wacko:

such as....?

[suus]

such as....?

Such as the placing of the arms of a woman in prayer. How come some Shia Ulema of the past said that a woman places her hands on her breast when they say no, its to her sides, but its mustahab to place hands on thighs.

I mean the hadith is a little vague in my opinion about the word "place/join". I sort of want to understand why.

Other little things, that I prefer not to discuss.

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Out of curiosity, is there a particular ruling you're finding to be in opposition to what you are reading in the ahadith?

in my limited knowledge I found atleast 50 such differences from fatwas to ahadees. Regarding, differeing among themselves; there are hundreds of minor and major differences. If u need them I can give it to u only after ashura but I m sure u are aware of atleast few differences as u are a student of ahadees.

Keep up with ur good work. I always pray for u.

Ya Ali Madad

[doobybrother]

Such as the placing of the arms of a woman in prayer. How come some Shia Ulema of the past said that a woman places her hands on her breast when they say no, its to her sides, but its mustahab to place hands on thighs.

I mean the hadith is a little vague in my opinion about the word "place/join". I sort of want to understand why.

Sorry if I have understood you incorrectly but are you saying that ulema of the past said its wajib to place hands on breasts whereas today they say its mustahab?

Or that there is a difference as to how the hands should placed, as in should they touch or not?

Can you please post the hadiths your talking about, and the fatawa as well.

jazakAllah

in my limited knowledge I found atleast 50 such differences from fatwas to ahadees.

you are far too humble.

[Ali_Hussain]

Such as the placing of the arms of a woman in prayer. How come some Shia Ulema of the past said that a woman places her hands on her breast when they say no, its to her sides, but its mustahab to place hands on thighs.

I mean the hadith is a little vague in my opinion about the word "place/join". I sort of want to understand why.

Other little things, that I prefer not to discuss.

I often have similar thoughts, for example, for me, the pinnacle of how to behave should be as rasulullah (pbuh) did, for situations he didn't come across, then we should look to an imam who did come across it.

But the maraja declare certain things to be mustahab, even though the ma'sumeen (as) could have done them, or told their followers to do them but didn't. Examples range from the iqama and adhan to 90% of ashura rituals.

As I inderstand it, mustahab would mean to do it brings greater rewards, but how can that be? Surely dressing, praying, mourning, eating like the ma'sumeen (as) should bring the most rewards?

Some times it seems like the maraja deduce what isn't haram, then tell us to do it (without themselves doing it) rather than advising us how the imams (as) did in the same situation.

[guest 34193]

While I am not an Usooli myself, you should not confuse what you average "`alim" might be telling you as opposed to the maraji` themselves (I would even include many of those who work in the offices of these maraji` in the former category). If you go to the more detailed works of the maraji`, their kharij lectures and so on, you can find things that most people might not be aware of, as well as an abundance of citations and references from the ahadith themselves.

Sorry if I have understood you incorrectly but are you saying that ulema of the past said its wajib to place hands on breasts whereas today they say its mustahab?

Or that there is a difference as to how the hands should placed, as in should they touch or not?

Can you please post the hadiths your talking about, and the fatawa as well.

He's probably referring to this hadith:

[7080] 4 ـ وبهده الأسانيد عن حماد بن عيسى ، عن حريز ، عن زرارة قال : إذا قامت المرأة في الصلاة جمعت بين قدميها ، ولا تفرج بينهما ، وتضم يديها إلى صدرها لمكان ثدييها ، فإذا ركعت وضعت يديها فوق ركبتيها على فخذيها لئلا تطأطأ كثيراً فترتفع عجيزتها ، فإذا جلست فعلى أليتيها ، ليس (1) كما يجلس (2) الرجل ، وإذا سقطت للسجود بدأت بالقعود وبالركبتين قبل اليدين ثم تسجد لاطئة (3) بالأرض ، فإذا كانت في جلوسها ضمت فخذيها ورفعت ركبتيها من الأرض ، وإذا نهضت انسلت انسلالاً لا ترفع عجيزتها أولاً.

4 – And with these chains from Hammad b. `Isa from Hariz from Zurarah. He said: When a woman stands for prayer, she gathers the feet together and does not leave any space between them and she draws her hands towards her chest, positioning them at her breasts. Then when she bows, she places her hands above her knees upon her thighs lest she bend down too much that it elevate her posterior. And when she sits, it is upon her buttocks – unlike (the word ليس is not found in al Tahdheeb – in the margin of the manuscript) how a man sits (in the Masdar: يقعد) – and when she goes into prostration, she commences by sitting and upon her knees prior to (placing) the hands; then she prostrates, cleaving to the ground (in Majma` al Bahrayn: meaning, clinging to it). Then when she is in her sitting, she joins her thighs together and she elevates her knees above the ground. And when she rises, she slips into it discreetly (i.e., without drawing attention by way of rising like the men), not raising her posterior first.

[avjar7]

Such as the placing of the arms of a woman in prayer. How come some Shia Ulema of the past said that a woman places her hands on her breast when they say no, its to her sides, but its mustahab to place hands on thighs.

I mean the hadith is a little vague in my opinion about the word "place/join". I sort of want to understand why.

(salam)

Please read this, which I hope puts this issue in perspective.

[raziakhan]

Qte.

Lastly, don't worry. You don't have to spend 25 years studying man made subjects such as mantiq, irfan, sarf, nahw, asfar(in fact its author mulla sadra was also an akhbari) and other philosophy books, lum'a, sharh lum'a and other usul and fiqh works to gain the knowledge of halal/haram(which could be learned from studying ahadith books for a few months, or maybe years, depending on dedication of course) so as to lead a pious life. No, I'm not some revolutionary. From Abdullah al samhiji and Amin Astarabadi to Yusuf al Bahrani, these points were raised by them all. Unqte.

It is not possible for us to derive the jurisprudential ahkam from hadeeth directly until we have the proper knowledge of Ilmur Rijal. Further, many Ahadees are just fake and planted by ghalis which are still carrying on in our books. Some ahadees are conflicting with each other. Usoole Fiqh is the science of deducing ahkam using Adillae Arb'aa. Unfortunately the akhbaris do not believe in Ijma and reasoning confusing reasoning with qayas. qayas and reasoning are two different issues altogether. It is so unreasonable to be against 'reason'!!

Therefore the above shortcut (You don't have to spend 25 years studying man made subjects -which could be learned from studying ahadith books for a few months) is not feasible. There are not shortcuts in religion-not in islam at least.

[siraatoaliyinhaqqun]

Salam,

Allah azwj is free from any need. He azwj does not need your amal but He wants to see who is doing the Itaat of the Guides Whom He appointed and want to give us His grace.

Ahadis are vast for a intellect like human beings. When I read books, I feel each hadis even if it looks similar is an answer to another Question. So, it is not that hard to choose the right ones which is applicable to your need and ILM UL RIJAL is no rocket science to learn.

Ghaalis, if they really did something, would not harm the Halal and Haram stuff and anyway usoolis say taqleed is haram in Usool e Deen and that is where you can see ghalis.

Oh no, we need mujtahids/rijalists more in Usool e Deen than Furoo e Deen. Anyway, they also control the usool of the people but say it is prohibited.

Many people are so brain-washed about Taqleed that they just dont want to use the brain anymore and any religion without overall education cannot survive for long. So, we all should see what Aimma a.s. have said. And we all should learn from the craddle to the grave not just fear the 25 years and surrender the Imaan.

Ya Ali Madad

Ya Ali Madad