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baradar_jackson

First Sister-pilot In Basij

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(salam)

Yes, you can. If you can force someone to do one thing then you can obviously force them to do anything you want. :)

Then why are you not using this line (If that person, is truly a Muslim, HE/SHE will do it.) when you are discussing the hejab for women. If you can put a gun on women to force them to observe hejab, then why not put a gun to make people pay zakat/khums.

Then why arguing for enforcement of hejab for women who do not believe in it.

People can easily do or not do(one or both). Why is your side arguing for enforcement of one Sharia (hejab) and not other Islamic Sharias (Zakat/Khums)?

99.9% sure you would come up with that counterargument :D

Well, hmm, this is what I interpret the IRI's interpretation of the MUSTS or optionals

In regards to hijab- hijab is a societal expectation, so the pressure comes externally (by not wearing it the people around you will be affected). In other words, if you choose not to wear hijab, the men around you will act differently, they might rape a woman, harass her, get distracted from work/school etc. etc. It has this societal/external force that pushes the person to abide by it.

In regards to alms giving, or things of that nature at least- the pressure comes internally. Nobody will force you to pay it up, but it is just expected of you. Kind of like a personal responsibility. If you don't pay it up, nobody will ever know, but the harm comes to yourself (i.e. being selfish). It has more intrinsic (personal) harm than hurting outsiders, where as failing to follow hijab conduct, has both internal and external harm. Lets say like cause and effect?? The cause will be that men will be out of control. The effect will be the woman that remain absent from hijab will suffer physically from it.

But I think an optional/alternative reason for avoiding alms giving and anything financial of this nature, may be that the taxes of today make up for the ABSENCE of taxes of yesterday (the past).

We have to realize, during the Prophet's time, there were no such thing as taxes (at least the way they exist today), so back then, the alms were almost symbolically equivalent to the taxes of today.

But on an interesting note, a lot of Mormons, and some Muslims, will pay these alms in addition to their income taxes. For a variety of reasons:

1. Could be strict in their beliefs.

2. Could have a "giving" personality (humanists)

3. Because they are actually wealthy and can afford to do so

Edited by ShiaBen

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(salam)

Yes, you can. If you can force someone to do one thing then you can obviously force them to do anything you want. :)

Zakat or Khums cannot be enforced by deducting a lump sum on peoples Salaries. What if the person is in debt? How would you know his exact expenses? What if one decides to pay Zakat to his deserving relatives? How is the Government meant to know how much gold and silver people have at home? Isnt Khums paid to marjas through their representatives, what does it have to do with the Government?

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Zakat or Khums cannot be enforced by deducting a lump sum on peoples Salaries. What if the person is in debt? How would you know his exact expenses? What if one decides to pay Zakat to his deserving relatives? How is the Government meant to know how much gold and silver people have at home? Isnt Khums paid to marjas through their representatives, what does it have to do with the Government?

That was probably the most CENTRAL point, I even forgot to bring up.

Thanks bro, that is actually one of the bigger concepts behind khums, zakat, and other varieties of alms giving. Not just pertaining to Islam, but even in a broad range of similar religions that have a similar concept. Hence why it becomes something that is an individual responsibility, not one you can enforce directly upon the individual (since we're not sure what he/she is going through).

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Zakat or Khums cannot be enforced by deducting a lump sum on peoples Salaries. What if the person is in debt? How would you know his exact expenses? What if one decides to pay Zakat to his deserving relatives? How is the Government meant to know how much gold and silver people have at home? Isnt Khums paid to marjas through their representatives, what does it have to do with the Government?

All of this can be implemented in the Islamic taxation system. You can even make everything online so people can fill their own form and declare their own expense/debt/Misc spending. You better look up rules on the Gold and silver because it seems you are not aware of what that means (remember you ignorantly assume everyone will have problem with their zakat because they have to deal with cattles and livestocks).

As for the of paying and sending the khums to people's marjas, this is no trouble at all. All you need to do is to have a code for each marjas. You can declare all this in the form itself.

If people are having trouble with understanding and computing their zakat and khums, then you send basiij to their home! (no, not to intimidate or harass folks. Just so they can help people and remind people so they don't forget their Islamic duty).

Why are you finding excuses not to obey Islamic Sharia? :unsure:

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In regards to hijab- hijab is a societal expectation, so the pressure comes externally (by not wearing it the people around you will be affected). In other words, if you choose not to wear hijab, the men around you will act differently, they might rape a woman, harass her, get distracted from work/school etc. etc. It has this societal/external force that pushes the person to abide by it.

This is the essence of it. Hijab is a social issue, and impacts people other than the ones wearing it. Another consequence of the non enforcement of Hijab can be that corporations will take advantage of it, and use barely dressed women for advertising purposes. I had posted a video of the adverts in Iran before the Islamic Revolution earlier in the thread. This further also has the potential to mislead the gullible and naive younger sisters to dress up that way. It will just lead to a corrupt and immodest environment, like the one we have in the West, but there will still be freedom eh.

All of this can be implemented in the Islamic taxation system. You can even make everything online so people can fill their own form and declare their expense/debt/Misc spending. You better look up rules on the Gold and silver because it seems you are not aware of what that means (remember you ignorantly assume everyone will have problem with their zakat because they have to deal with cattles and livestocks).

As for trouble sending khums to people's marjas, all you need to do is to have a code for each marjas. You can declare all this in the form itself.

If people are having trouble with understanding and computing their zakat and khums, then you send basiij to their home! (no, not to intimidate or harass folks. Just so they can help people and remind people so they don't forget their Islamic duty).

Why are you finding excuses not to obey Islamic Sharia? :unsure:

If people fill in their own forms, than there will be no element ''enforcement''. Enforcement can only happen, if the Government verifies each and every detail mentioned. But there is no way in which the Government would be able to verify details such as how much somebody spends on their grocery and transportation costs. Thus, it would be a useless system, and if somebody didnt want to pay their Khums dues, they would be able manipulate these figures very easily.

Edited by shiasoldier786

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This is the essence of it. Hijab is a social issue, and impacts people other than the ones wearing it. Another consequence of the non enforcement of Hijab can be that corporations will take advantage of it, and use barely dressed women for advertising purposes. I had posted a video of the adverts in Iran before the Islamic Revolution earlier in the thread. This further also has the potential to mislead the gullible and naive younger sisters to dress up that way. It will just lead to a corrupt and immodest environment, like the one we have in the West, but there will still be freedom eh.

Bro thanks for reminding me, what you've described about the advertisements is spot on.

My mom was on a bus trip from Tehran toward Rasht when she was 18 with a group friends.

During this time, not too many people wore hijab, mostly the people in rural areas of Iran, maybe some suburban areas as well.

Anyways, on the trip up north, there was one woman riding in the public bus sitting some feet away from my mom and her school friends.

The woman was barely clothed, to the point where she was wearing one long piece of cloth covering a portion of her genitalia, breasts were exposed more or less, and 75% of her skin was observable. It was just shocking, of course there were women with mini skirts, high heels, and revealing tops, but my mom and her associates had seen nothing of that nature. Even my mom who was westernized socially during those years (won a beauty pageant contest at a local H.S.) was even disgusted at the lack of limitations.

Reasons like this were why hijab became even MORE popular after the revolution.

Edited by ShiaBen

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All of you who's in favor of regulating government punishment of breaking dress code haven't answered this question satisfyingly:

"If it's so important for Islamic government, why no hadith at all from the ma'sumin?"

Remember that the situation is basically the same, unlike "traffic light", i.e. traffic light was not exist during their time, while hijab law was & still is.

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On 12/6/2010 at 5:00 AM, rotten_coconut said:

All of you who's in favor of regulating government punishment of breaking dress code haven't answered this question satisfyingly:

"If it's so important for Islamic government, why no hadith at all from the ma'sumin?"

Remember that the situation is basically the same, unlike "traffic light", i.e. traffic light was not exist during their time, while hijab law was & still is.

(bismillah)

(salam)

The Sunna and Hijab

The sunna —the sayings and examples of the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.)— is the second most important source for Islamic laws. It is impossible to truly understand the Qur’an without studying the Prophet’s life that provided the context in which the holy Book was revealed. Almighty Allah says,

“And We have revealed to you (O Muhammad) the Reminder (i.e., the Qur’an) so that you may clarify to the people what has been revealed to them, and so that they may reflect.” (16:44)

“Sunna” is that “clarification” mentioned in this verse.

There is a tendency among the so-called progressive and liberated Muslims to claim that they only follow the Qur’an and ignore the sunna of the Prophet. Responding to such Muslims, Drs. Murata and Chittick write, “We are perfectly aware that many contemporary Muslims are tired of what they consider outdated material: they would like to discard their intellectual heritage and replace it with truly ‘scientific’ endeavors, such as sociology. By claiming that the Islamic intellectual heritage is superfluous and that the Koran is sufficient, such people have surrendered to the spirit of the times. This is a far different enterprise than that pursued by the great authorities, who interpreted their present in the light of a grand tradition and who never fell prey to the up-to-date—that most obsolescent of all abstractions.”[7]

From the Shi‘i point of view, the authentic sayings of the Imams of Ahlul Bayt portray the true sunna of the Prophet and further clarify the meaning of the Qur’anic verses. The Prophet himself introduced the Ahlul Bayt as the twin of the Qur’an.[8]

* * * * *

The following two sayings from the Imams of the Ahlul Bayt on the issue of hijab are presented here as an example.

Al-Fudayl bin Yasar asked Imam as-Sadiq AS about the forearms of a woman: whether they are included in the “beauty” as described by the Almighty when He says, “and they should not display their beauty except for their husbands...” The Imam replied, “Yes, and what is beneath the veil covering the head (khimar) is from the beauty [as mentioned in the verse], and also what is beneath the wristbands.”[9] As one can clearly see in this authentic hadith, the Imam has exempted the face and the hands, but everything else has been counted as “the beauty that should not be displayed except for their husbands...”

Abu Nasr al-Bazinli quotes Imam ‘Ali as-Rida AS as follows: “A woman does not have to cover her head in the presence of a boy who has not yet reached the age of puberty.”[10] The implication of this statement is obvious that once a boy who is not related to a woman reaches the age of puberty, she has to cover her head in his presence.

Even the founders of the Sunni schools of law are unanimous in this view. According to the Maliki, the Hanafi, the Shafi‘i, and the Hanbali views, the entire body of a woman is ‘awrah and therefore it should be covered with the exception of the face and the hands.[11]

* * * * *

The two verses discussed above put together clearly show that hijab, as a decent code of dress for Muslim women, is part of the Qur’anic teachings. This is also confirmed by how the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) understood and implemented these verses among the Muslim women. This is further confirmed by how the Imams of the Ahlul Bayt (a.s.), and the Muslim scholars of the early generations of Islam understood the Qur’an.[12]

It is an understanding that has been continuously affirmed by Muslims for the last fourteen centuries. And, strangely, now we hear some so-called experts of Islam telling us that hijabhas nothing to do with Islam, it is just a cultural issue and a matter of personal choice!

Notes:

[7] Sachiko Murata & William C. Chittick, The Vision of Islam (St. Paul, MN: Paragon House, 1995) p. xi.

[8] For more information on the sunna and also the connection between the Qur’an and the Ahlul Bayt, see my Introduction to Islamic Laws.

[9] Al-Kulayni, al-Furu‘ mina ’l-Kafi, vol. 2, p. 64.

[10] As-Saduq, Man la Yahduruhu ’l-Faqih, vol. 2, p. 140; Qurbu ’l-Asnad, p. 170. See Wasa’ilu ’sh-Shi‘ah, vol. 14 (Beirut: Dar at-Turath al-‘Arabi, n.d.) p. 169.

[11] ‘Abdu ’r-Rahman al-Juzari, al-Fiqh ‘ala ’l-Madhahibi ’l-Arba‘ah, vol. 5 (Beirut: Daru ’l-Fikr, 1969) p. 54-55.

[12] Besides the references quoted earlier, also see at-Tabrasi, Majma‘u ’l-Bayan, vol. 7-8, p. 138, 370; at-Tusi, at-Tibyan, vol. 8, p. 361; Fakhru ’d-Din ar-Razi, at-Tafsiru ’l-Kabir, vol. 23, p. 179-180.

See this: https://www.al-islam.org/hijab-muslim-womens-dress-islamic-or-cultural-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/sunna-and-hijab

Hijab, The Muslim Womens Dress,Islamic or Cultural?

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You're missing my point, sister Hameedah. Please differentiate between "law of hijab" vs "hudud or punishment of breaking law of hijab"

It's undeniable fact that according to our authentic hadiths, there are obligatory laws of hijab, for both Muslim woman & man.

But, it's also a fact that:

1. There's no law telling an Islamic government what to do in case of these hijab laws are breached. Considering the condition is more or less the same during the ma'sumin time vs our time, we can't take the analogy of the "traffic light" because it doesn't exist at the time of the ma'sumin. If it were really important or this were an important law to be enacted, the ma'sumin would have already informed us about this. So, most probably it means that the most correct way to do that is not to regulate that, just like what the ma'sumin has done.

2. Moreover, enforcement of our hijab law to non-Muslim is not backed by the tradition. Then, why do it when the ma'sumin themselves didn't do it, even when they got the chances?

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On 12/6/2010 at 5:41 AM, Hameedeh said:

(bismillah)

(salam)

The Sunna and Hijab

The sunna —the sayings and examples of the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.)— is the second most important source for Islamic laws. It is impossible to truly understand the Qur’an without studying the Prophet’s life that provided the context in which the holy Book was revealed. Almighty Allah says,

“And We have revealed to you (O Muhammad) the Reminder (i.e., the Qur’an) so that you may clarify to the people what has been revealed to them, and so that they may reflect.” (16:44)

“Sunna” is that “clarification” mentioned in this verse.

There is a tendency among the so-called progressive and liberated Muslims to claim that they only follow the Qur’an and ignore the sunna of the Prophet. Responding to such Muslims, Drs. Murata and Chittick write, “We are perfectly aware that many contemporary Muslims are tired of what they consider outdated material: they would like to discard their intellectual heritage and replace it with truly ‘scientific’ endeavors, such as sociology. By claiming that the Islamic intellectual heritage is superfluous and that the Koran is sufficient, such people have surrendered to the spirit of the times. This is a far different enterprise than that pursued by the great authorities, who interpreted their present in the light of a grand tradition and who never fell prey to the up-to-date—that most obsolescent of all abstractions.”[7]

From the Shi‘i point of view, the authentic sayings of the Imams of Ahlul Bayt portray the true sunna of the Prophet and further clarify the meaning of the Qur’anic verses. The Prophet himself introduced the Ahlul Bayt as the twin of the Qur’an.[8]

* * * * *

The following two sayings from the Imams of the Ahlul Bayt on the issue of hijab are presented here as an example.

Al-Fudayl bin Yasar asked Imam as-Sadiq AS about the forearms of a woman: whether they are included in the “beauty” as described by the Almighty when He says, “and they should not display their beauty except for their husbands...” The Imam replied, “Yes, and what is beneath the veil covering the head (khimar) is from the beauty [as mentioned in the verse], and also what is beneath the wristbands.”[9] As one can clearly see in this authentic hadith, the Imam has exempted the face and the hands, but everything else has been counted as “the beauty that should not be displayed except for their husbands...”

Abu Nasr al-Bazinli quotes Imam ‘Ali as-Rida AS as follows: “A woman does not have to cover her head in the presence of a boy who has not yet reached the age of puberty.”[10] The implication of this statement is obvious that once a boy who is not related to a woman reaches the age of puberty, she has to cover her head in his presence.

Even the founders of the Sunni schools of law are unanimous in this view. According to the Maliki, the Hanafi, the Shafi‘i, and the Hanbali views, the entire body of a woman is ‘awrah and therefore it should be covered with the exception of the face and the hands.[11]

* * * * *

The two verses discussed above put together clearly show that hijab, as a decent code of dress for Muslim women, is part of the Qur’anic teachings. This is also confirmed by how the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) understood and implemented these verses among the Muslim women. This is further confirmed by how the Imams of the Ahlul Bayt (a.s.), and the Muslim scholars of the early generations of Islam understood the Qur’an.[12]

It is an understanding that has been continuously affirmed by Muslims for the last fourteen centuries. And, strangely, now we hear some so-called experts of Islam telling us that hijabhas nothing to do with Islam, it is just a cultural issue and a matter of personal choice!

Notes:

[7] Sachiko Murata & William C. Chittick, The Vision of Islam (St. Paul, MN: Paragon House, 1995) p. xi.

[8] For more information on the sunna and also the connection between the Qur’an and the Ahlul Bayt, see my Introduction to Islamic Laws.

[9] Al-Kulayni, al-Furu‘ mina ’l-Kafi, vol. 2, p. 64.

[10] As-Saduq, Man la Yahduruhu ’l-Faqih, vol. 2, p. 140; Qurbu ’l-Asnad, p. 170. See Wasa’ilu ’sh-Shi‘ah, vol. 14 (Beirut: Dar at-Turath al-‘Arabi, n.d.) p. 169.

[11] ‘Abdu ’r-Rahman al-Juzari, al-Fiqh ‘ala ’l-Madhahibi ’l-Arba‘ah, vol. 5 (Beirut: Daru ’l-Fikr, 1969) p. 54-55.

[12] Besides the references quoted earlier, also see at-Tabrasi, Majma‘u ’l-Bayan, vol. 7-8, p. 138, 370; at-Tusi, at-Tibyan, vol. 8, p. 361; Fakhru ’d-Din ar-Razi, at-Tafsiru ’l-Kabir, vol. 23, p. 179-180.

See this: https://www.al-islam.org/hijab-muslim-womens-dress-islamic-or-cultural-sayyid-muhammad-rizvi/sunna-and-hijab

Hijab, The Muslim Womens Dress,Islamic or Cultural?

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i don't know what you and Afreen got going on, but I would like to interject something about Middle East studies programs.  you said about them:

 

Please point one out to me so that I can then proceed to laugh afterwards.  

I will stand by several of my professors involved with the Middle East studies programs at the University of Washington in Seattle (I took classes as late as 2005 there).   My professors were objective, well-informed and enthusiastic in how they taught their classes, i found no point of view to be outside the realm of discussion, and as far as I could tell most of them genuinely loved the Middle East and the Near East generally and were well intended with their syllabi. 

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This reply has no connection to the post.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Rotten coconut said: "If it's so important for Islamic government, why no hadith at all from the ma'sumin?"

I posted one saying by the 6th Imam AS and one saying by the 8th Imam AS about hijab. FYI: They are masumeen AS. The rest of my message was extra info because I'm a wordy person. :)

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You're missing my point, sister Hameedah. Please differentiate between "law of hijab" vs "hudud or punishment of breaking law of hijab"

It's undeniable fact that according to our authentic hadiths, there are obligatory laws of hijab, for both Muslim woman & man.

But, it's also a fact that:

1. There's no law telling an Islamic government what to do in case of these hijab laws are breached. Considering the condition is more or less the same during the ma'sumin time vs our time, we can't take the analogy of the "traffic light" because it doesn't exist at the time of the ma'sumin. If it were really important or this were an important law to be enacted, the ma'sumin would have already informed us about this. So, most probably it means that the most correct way to do that is not to regulate that, just like what the ma'sumin has done.

2. Moreover, enforcement of our hijab law to non-Muslim is not backed by the tradition. Then, why do it when the ma'sumin themselves didn't do it, even when they got the chances?

Brother, I am not a learned man.

I am not gonna try to go point-for-point against Macisaac. Obviously, he has a hawza education and will beat me in such an argument.

But...

We are in agreement that hijab is obligatory.

But you and macisaac are saying that there are no hadiths to prove that it must be enforced.

I think we need to realize that we live in a different time than the masoomeen.

In today's society, there are new benefits and new detriments. We need to make sure our actions are effective. What worked then may not work now.

Firstly, it should be noted that we have an unprecedented amount of resources today. States can enforce things in ways that they were unable to do so 1400 years ago.

Secondly, the communication technologies of the current era allow for propaganda to reach every corner of the world. Anti-Islamic propaganda is being beamed into Muslim countries non-stop. This comes through news channels, foreign entertainment channels, those Arabic satellite music channels, etc. These have many negative effects: they try to erode the legitimacy of Islamic government, they encourage consumerism and materialism, and they encourage hedonism and self-indulgence.

The effects of these propagandas cannot be understated. We cannot stand back and let these people take over the discourse and brainwash our people. No. We must respond. Regardless of whether Imam Ali did it in his time or not, we must enforce hijab in order to preserve it. Our society is besieged, so this is the only answer.

So I would say that the enforcement of hijab is analogous to the traffic light.

The traffic light was made necessary because of automobile traffic.

And the enforcement of hijab has been made necessary because of anti-hijab propaganda that has taken root in our society and corrupted our people.

i don't know what you and Afreen got going on, but I would like to interject something about Middle East studies programs. you said about them:

I will stand by several of my professors involved with the Middle East studies programs at the University of Washington in Seattle (I took classes as late as 2005 there). My professors were objective, well-informed and enthusiastic in how they taught their classes, i found no point of view to be outside the realm of discussion, and as far as I could tell most of them genuinely loved the Middle East and the Near East generally and were well intended with their syllabi.

They love the Middle East like Alexander loved the Middle East.

Edited by baradar_jackson

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Rotten coconut said: "If it's so important for Islamic government, why no hadith at all from the ma'sumin?"

I posted one saying by the 6th Imam AS and one saying by the 8th Imam AS about hijab. FYI: They are masumeen AS. The rest of my message was extra info because I'm a wordy person. :)

He was clearly talking about enforcement, not about its obligation at the individual level. So your response had no relation to his post.

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He was clearly talking about enforcement, not about its obligation at the individual level. So your response had no relation to his post.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Rotten_coconut is your friend so I guess you see eye-to-eye. I thought he is saying there is no hadith from Masoomeen AS about hijab. In the time of the Holy Prophet SA, when the revelation about hijab came, the people were making tawaf of the Holy Kaba naked. The hijab law, in the Holy Qur'an and the instruction of the Holy Prophet SA, makes hijab compulsory. Believing women in the time of the Prophet SA immediately covered themselves and it seems that someone at ShiaChat said there is a hadith about slave women having no headcover. However, there are no slaves in the Islamic Republic of Iran today, therefore all women have to observe hijab, including tourists and diplomats from other countries.

Ayatollah Khamenei then recalled the January 7 anniversary of the tragic crackdown on the Iranian women's Hijab by the then despot Rezakhan, saying that the enemy drive was designed to ruin the women's faith.

"In a move they co-organized with Pahlavid-linked intellectuals, the enemies of Iran and Islam had decided to pull the Iranian woman from chastity and Hijab and annihilate the great power of faith which has always run the Muslim communities," Ayatollah Khamenei said.

The Islamic Revolution Leader noted that any Hijab removal would lead to the removal of chastity from society and the destruction of the family, adding that the Iranian nation, especially the Muslim women at the time stood up to the pressure and averted the conspiracy.

Source of the quotation from Ayatollah Khamenei HA on January 9, 2008: http://www.leader.ir/langs/en/?p=contentShow&id=3667

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They love the Middle East like Alexander loved the Middle East.

The subject is on the table at American universities.  Edward Said did a lot to open up the eyes of many academics as to the relationship between knowledge and power.  Sure there are some old school Napoleonic Orientalists left, but the new generation have been educated from a post-Said viewpoint and are likely to have a more benign intent in their scholarship than did previous generations.  The new school understands the need for the Muslims to develop their own discourse on modernity.  

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The subject is on the table at American universities.  Edward Said did a lot to open up the eyes of many academics as to the relationship between knowledge and power.  Sure there are some old school Napoleonic Orientalists left, but the new generation have been educated from a post-Said viewpoint and are likely to have a more benign intent in their scholarship than did previous generations.  The new school understands the need for the Muslims to develop their own discourse on modernity.  

Then why are all my teachers gung-ho when it comes to intervention?

One of my teachers suggested that the US was behind the recent assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists, and she didn't seem to see it the least bit objectionable. (I consider it to be a blatant violation of Iran's sovereignty; surely such acts would not have been tolerated if Iran were suspected to be behind them).

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Then why are all my teachers gung-ho when it comes to intervention?

One of my teachers suggested that the US was behind the recent assassinations of Iranian nuclear scientists, and she didn't seem to see it the least bit objectionable. (I consider it to be a blatant violation of Iran's sovereignty; surely such acts would not have been tolerated if Iran were suspected to be behind them).

I guess i am lucky to live in a bubble then.  That was not my experience. 

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Have you not seen this famous hadith before?

Quote
The Commander of the Faithful Ali ibn Abi Talib AS said, "One day I and Lady Fatima AS paid a visit to the Holy Prophet SA who began crying. I asked, "O Messenger of Allah SA may my father and mother be sacrificed for you, what is the reason for your crying?" The Holy Prophet SA replied, "O Ali, the night on which I went to Me'raj (Ascension) I saw some women of my Ummah facing severe chastisement and I am crying for them. One was being hung by her hair and her head was boiling." . . . . . Janabe Fatima Zahra (SA) enquired, "O beloved father please inform us about the misdeeds or sins of these women for which they were subjected to such severe chastisement by the Almighty? The Holy Prophet SA answered, "O Fatima, the woman who was being hung by her hair was the one who did not veil herself from the Na-Mahram men." [biharul Anwar, Vol. 18, Pg. 45.]

This is the most famous hadith about hijab and demonstrates clearly that hijab is wajib and if it wasn't important (as some of you say), then why would Allah SWT show the Holy Prophet SA this woman being punished for not wearing hijab?

There are many things that are haram and there is no punishment for it. If a man finds a dead animal in the grass, cooks it and eats it, would he be arrested, incarcerated, or fined for consuming a dead animal? No, even though it is haram to eat something that has died without Islamic slaughtering, he would not be punished in any way. But who knows what kind of harm he has caused himself, physically, morally and spiritually by doing such a disgusting haram activity? Just because you cannot find a hadith where one of the Masoumeen AS punished a woman for not wearing hijab, it does not mean that hijab should be ignored. Hijab is important for the society or Allah SWT wouldn't have given the hijab law to the Holy Prophet SA. When the hijab is removed from some of the women in a community, the chastity of that community begins to slip away, and only Allah SWT knows how many families will be destroyed because of Shaytan's entrance into that careless community.

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Socrates and the like are studied in Iranian universities all the time. Heck, Ali Larijani was a big researcher of Kant. There’s no “taboos” in the academic front in the IRI. The revolution was founded on a critical analysis of Western and orientalist sources. Can’t say the same thing with a lot of Western universities, who have closed themselves off only to the scholarship of Western thinkers and their “Eastern” token lapdogs (Abrahamian, Aslan, Zakeria, Majd, Dabashi, Soroush, etc).

And I don't know most of those names. I know about Huntington and Fukuyama, but that is only because their works were quoted in an Iranian textbook on the Islamic Revolution as examples of post-Cold War thinking in the West. I wish I didn't even know them. The Western intelligentsia means nothing to me. Almost all of them are worthless. Finkelstein is my boy, and there are a few other clever ones, but the rest are idiots. But then again, I shouldn't single out the West for that: Eastern intellectuals are worthless too. But Eastern intellectuals are just muqalids of Western intellectuals.

You should get to know these names better. They're just like you. They think the East and the West are neat titles that can be arbitrarily slapped on the things we like and value vs the things we don't like and value - exactly the kind of people exposed by Said when he wrote Orientalism. Bernard Lewis is an oriental studies buff who was often the target of Said's harshest critique. Ignatieff currently leads the largest opposition party in Canada after having taught at Harvard where he acted as a cheerleader for America to become the policeman of the world. His work is used heavily in American war colleges and at highest levels of American strategic studies to basically argue "if not American than who?"

This sounds a whole lot like Anglican Protestant arrogance in dealing with the Islamic world. Instead of treating the Islamic world like a unique identity and culture, they present it as merely a deformed Christianity. You want to deny the East even its own title of “East”, and instead would like to rename it “West vs. the Deformed West” or “West vs. Western satellites”. You share the notion that the world can and should belong to the West.

Again, these tiles don't work for me. They never have and never will. When you use them, you come off as no different to me than the noblemen mentioned above - men for whom I have very little respect.

Your viewpoint of the Iraqi side and anything about it is irrelevant. As long as you can take as many swipes at the IRI as possible, you really don’t give a flock.

Now that is interesting. I pointed out to you a flaw in your argument but you chose to blither on about something completely besides what I pointed out. That IS the problem. On the other hand, if you cannot distinguish between academic interests and personal interests, I'm not sure how to get to across to you. My academic interest no longer lies around the war, hence I'm not interested in reading up on it again. I refuse to do it especially because you would do exactly the kind of clever dodging that you just did by completely avoiding the point I made (about Hamid Algar!). It makes clear that you are interested more in glorifying your position and your beliefs over trying to discover the truth.

Quite frankly, I find your unfounded accusation after accusation unworthy of my response. Most importantly that somehow I care less about Iranian lives. Where exactly do you get that? Dreams? Just because I focus on a particular aspect of the war, i.e. how Iran could have avoided a messy war (which I believe no one won), doesn't mean I'm absolving Saddam and his supporters of their guilt. Any such assumption on your part just reflects poorly on you mate. Any serious academic who blames Iran for the war is an idiot. Period. But at the same time it would be foolish, for instance, to absolve the allies of their crimes i.e. carpet bombing of Dresden and Hamburg, or the use of nuclear bombs by the US - even though Germany and Japan were the aggressors.

Your deep venomous hatred for the IRI is very saddening to me.

Also please tell me what the war means to you personally. And none of this high horse on the hill “This war taught the pompous and enlightened me about the irrationality of humankind and morons like you” BS.

And I don't eat pasta. I eat adasi.

If your future study on this war is dependent on me or anybody else, then that’s just pathetic. Study it in the name of the martyrs, if you have even bothered to remember them.

Again, I don't recall getting venomous about the IRI. I have a problem with the system of velayat-i faqih because I believe it has little basis in Shi'ism, and will be a failure in the long run. I will continue to criticize it, just as I criticize anything else I don't agree with.. capitalism, communism, development, WTO, IMF, WB, Israeli occupation, dictatorships in Pakistan, judicial activism in Pakistan, orientalis, occidentalism, etc etc.

I simply believe that if an individual's faith in God is insufficient to make them a good Muslim, no government, no theory of Islamic government whether its VF or khilafa etc can do it. If you are really interested in looking at a genuine flip side of the picture, read (and I have a feeling I have suggested this before) the Report of Inquiry into Punjab Disturbances of 1953 by Justice Munir and Justice MR Kayani.

As for the war, when elephants fight, it's the grass that suffers. I hope that's enough of an indication to tell you what the war means for me.

Now if you're interested in a constructive debate and understanding you'll want to do some introspection and may be read what I suggested. If you're interested in brownie points to feed your ego a bit more or enhance your manliness rating or whatever it is you've been trying to do - do yourself a favor and don't reply, because I wont bother and all your hard work will have been in vain.

Ciao.

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