Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

The Imamate Of Ibrahim

Rate this topic


Incognito

Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member

I have dedicated a thread for you, fallah, so that you may answer my queries about this. Once I am satisfied, then I shall wonder about the questions you give.

Explain to me the verse in which Ibrahim (as) had become an Imam.

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=3373

How about you explain to me how you think this verse proves that there are 12 infallible imams after the prophet that we should follow.

Edited by fallah
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Read your response. There is a God and He will question you for your reason. Is this how you respond to me? Giving me a link to an already weak tasfeer with an even weaker reply.

The truth has unfolded and every reader will see it, you have no answer. Nor shall you ever. I pride myself on being reasonable, to the extent that I can agree with someones logic even if I do not share the view. But you, however, have nothing.

I hope others are not fooled by how you write, because you certainly appear to know things, but questioned thoroughly, you seemed to have no real response. If you do not wish to discuss this further then let me know, so that a moderator may close this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Read your response. There is a God and He will question you for your reason. Is this how you respond to me? Giving me a link to an already weak tasfeer with an even weaker reply.

The truth has unfolded and every reader will see it, you have no answer. Nor shall you ever. I pride myself on being reasonable, to the extent that I can agree with someones logic even if I do not share the view. But you, however, have nothing.

I hope others are not fooled by how you write, because you certainly appear to know things, but questioned thoroughly, you seemed to have no real response. If you do not wish to discuss this further then let me know, so that a moderator may close this.

tafsir ibn kathir is weak?

ok

you don't care about the truth

have fun

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The tafsir that Ibrahim (as) became an Imam after Prophethood and in old age is not established by the reasoning showed by mufasirs.

First because the news of being given Isaac (as) was in old age, however, being given news of having offspring could have been earlier. Even before specific news of Ismael (as) he could have been given news of having offspring in general. Also, the news of Ismael (as) could be like Mariam (as) was told bushra twice, one time earler, and another time when it's eminent.

So the Bushra later of Ismael (as) could have been when it;s eminent. Other then that, he could've been assuming he would have children like the norm, but the response simply states it wouldn't include those whom commit injustice.

So it's not established that this wasn't when he was given his mission as a Prophet and Messenger to his people, that he was been made a Leader/Guide.

Thus this verse can be saying he is being made a leader for people, and it could start of his Messengerhood.

This makes more sense since Allah (swt) says Mohammad (saw) and Isa (as) are no more then Messengers. If Imamate was a higher station that Messengers don't necessarily have, then they would be more then Messengers for being Imams. But Imamate is encompassed by Messengerhood, so Allah (swt) said Mohammad and Isa are only but Messengers.

Edited by MysticKnight
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

The tafsir that Ibrahim (as) became an Imam after Prophethood and in old age is not established by the reasoning showed by mufasirs.

First because the news of being given Isaac (as) was in old age, however, being given news of having offspring could have been earlier. Even before specific news of Ismael (as) he could have been given news of having offspring in general. Also, the news of Ismael (as) could be like Mariam (as) was told bushra twice, one time earler, and another time when it's eminent.

So the Bushra later of Ismael (as) could have been when it;s eminent. Other then that, he could've been assuming he would have children like the norm, but the response simply states it wouldn't include those whom commit injustice.

So it's not established that this wasn't when he was given his mission as a Prophet and Messenger to his people, that he was been made a Leader/Guide.

Thus this verse can be saying he is being made a leader for people, and it could start of his Messengerhood.

This makes more sense since Allah (swt) says Mohammad (saw) and Isa (as) are no more then Messengers. If Imamate was a higher station that Messengers don't necessarily have, then they would be more then Messengers for being Imams. But Imamate is encompassed by Messengerhood, so Allah (swt) said Mohammad and Isa are only but Messengers.

It is agreed, unanimously, that the test in which this verse refers to is that of Ibrahim (as) having to sacrifice his own son. Something to which happened later in his life.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is agreed, unanimously, that the test in which this verse refers to is that of Ibrahim (as) having to sacrifice his own son. Something to which happened later in his life.

Through Quran logic alone, you cannot deduce that. All you can deduce he was tried.

Quran says Mohammad is but a Messenger, while you are trying to make Imamate something distinct and not inclusive in Messengerhood. He would be surely more then a Messenger, if Imamate was not inclusive of Messengerhood and something higher. But Quran says he is but a Messenger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Through Quran logic alone, you cannot deduce that. All you can deduce he was tried.

Quran says Mohammad is but a Messenger, while you are trying to make Imamate something distinct and not inclusive in Messengerhood. He would be surely more then a Messenger, if Imamate was not inclusive of Messengerhood and something higher. But Quran says he is but a Messenger.

I do not believe in interpreting the Quran solely on its words, I think the context in which it was revealed is extremely important. Also the context of what you say must be taken into consideration.

This is the verse which you speak of,

142} Do you think that you will enter the garden while Allah has not yet known those who strive hard from among you, and (He has not) known the patient. {143} And certainly you desired death before you met it, so indeed you have seen it and you look (at it) {144} And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful. {145}

These verses were revealed at a time of war. Tabatabai writes in his tafsir,

The meaning of the verse - in its context of censure and stricture is as follows: Muhammad is but a messenger of God, like other messengers sent earlier by Him; his task is to convey the message of His Lord; he has no authority in the affairs; all the affairs are in the hand of Allah, and the religion is His religion; it will continue with Allah's authority because Allah is to preserve it. Why should then your belief depend on Muhammad' s life? Why should you behave as if your religion would not survive the Prophet? Why do you give rise to the assumption that if Muhammad were to die or be killed you would run away from Allah's religion, would return back on your heels to your previous disbelief? Will you go back to misguidance after finding the guidance?

I do understand how you have come to this view, but once again, I do not accept that the Quran is simply and only literal. If we are to be that critical then in this instance is also excludes Muhammad's (as) guidance as the term "Rasul" is simply used to mean messenger, and we adhere that this was not his only duty.

But this, still does not answer the queries about the first verse. Let us, for arguments sake, accept that Imamate and Prophethood are the same thing, then provide me a reasonable explanation for the first verse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do understand how you have come to this view, but once again, I do not accept that the Quran is simply and only literal. If we are to be that critical then in this instance is also excludes Muhammad's (as) guidance as the term "Rasul" is simply used to mean messenger, and we adhere that this was not his only duty.

If all Messengers were Imams and Khalifs, it would not exclude those two roles from them. Although as a Messenger, the duty is only conveying of the message, Messengers are automatically Khalifs and Leaders and Guides. This would mean being but a Messenger, implies being a Imam, Leader, and Khalif.

That is why I say it's more logical to say Messengerhood encompasses Imamate, but not the other way around. Every Messenger is an Imam, but not every Imam is a Messenger.

Every Messenger is a Captain that sails the ark of Wilayah by Name of Allah (swt).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
If all Messengers were Imams and Khalifs, it would not exclude those two roles from them. Although as a Messenger, the duty is only conveying of the message, Messengers are automatically Khalifs and Leaders and Guides. This would mean being but a Messenger, implies being a Imam, Leader, and Khalif.

Not all messengers are Imam or caliphs. Once again, going in circles, I refer you to the verse of Ibrahim (as). And certainly not all messengers WERE Caliphs, clearly.

A messenger, we understand to be a Prophet. The two terms are related but in itself are different things. But there is a difference between revealing something and guiding others towards it. These are two different roles. Here you are assuming the argument is over, being a messenger does not mean that he is also an Imam, since we havent managed to actually clarify properly what an "Imam" is.

That is why I say it's more logical to say Messengerhood encompasses Imamate, but not the other way around. Every Messenger is an Imam, but not every Imam is a Messenger.

This all seems like assumption to me.

A lot of this discussion comes down to word play. In some sense I can agree, yes every messenger IS an Imam based on the fact that they did guide people. Imam means guidance, but this is the same as to how we call the shaykhs in our mosques Imams.

I feel as though we are drifting from my first point. I think this verse is extremely critical in understand this point.

Every Messenger is a Captain that sails the ark of Wilayah by Name of Allah (swt).

And the Ahlulbayt are the ark itself.

Edited by Incognito
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

If all Messengers were Imams and Khalifs, it would not exclude those two roles from them. Although as a Messenger, the duty is only conveying of the message, Messengers are automatically Khalifs and Leaders and Guides. This would mean being but a Messenger, implies being a Imam, Leader, and Khalif.

That is why I say it's more logical to say Messengerhood encompasses Imamate, but not the other way around. Every Messenger is an Imam, but not every Imam is a Messenger.

Every Messenger is a Captain that sails the ark of Wilayah by Name of Allah (swt).

Was prophet Harun (s) a parallel khalif, imam or captain of ark beside prophet Musa (s)?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
Was prophet Harun (s) a parallel khalif, imam or captain of ark beside prophet Musa (s)?]

yes.

It has been narrated on the authority of Aba Sa'id al-Khudri that the Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) said: When oath of allegiance has been taken for two caliphs, kill the one for whom the oath was taken later.

Sahih Muslim, Book 20, Number 4568

What you think, which prophet needs to kill?

.

Edited by ehlulbejt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It has been narrated on the authority of Aba Sa'id al-Khudri that the Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) said: When oath of allegiance has been taken for two caliphs, kill the one for whom the oath was taken later.

Sahih Muslim, Book 20, Number 4568

What you think, which prophet needs to kill?.

That's Sunni hadith, as for us, we believe both allegiance of the Prophet (saw) and Imam Ali (as) was taken in life time of the Prophet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

That's Sunni hadith, as for us, we believe both allegiance of the Prophet (saw) and Imam Ali (as) was taken in life time of the Prophet.

Prophet Muhamed (s) was imam with this time. With this time, Ali (a.s) was not a parallel imam

Alleginace for Ali (a.s) was taken, but to be imam after prophet Muhamed (s)

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Prophet Muhamed (s) was imam with this time. With this time, Ali (a.s) was not a parallel imam

Alleginace for Ali (a.s) was taken, but to be imam after prophet Muhamed (s)

.

Then the same is true of Harun (as). Yoshua ibn noon was not successor and this can be shown by the fact that Musa (as) only controlled over himself and his brother.... if Yushua was a Prophet and successor, he surely would have controlled over him. Rather the Quran shows he had only control over himself and Harun (as). Harun (as) means high mountain, and so when Quran talks about the mountain being taken over them, I believe it refers to Harun being taken over them.

I believe history was changed and Harun didn't die before Musa and was in fact his younger brother. The change occured because Harun was rejected by bani-Israel, so this was part of their tahreef.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Then the same is true of Harun (as). Yoshua ibn noon was not successor and this can be shown by the fact that Musa (as) only controlled over himself and his brother.... if Yushua was a Prophet and successor, he surely would have controlled over him. Rather the Quran shows he had only control over himself and Harun (as). Harun (as) means high mountain, and so when Quran talks about the mountain being taken over them, I believe it refers to Harun being taken over them.

I believe history was changed and Harun didn't die before Musa and was in fact his younger brother. The change occured because Harun was rejected by bani-Israel, so this was part of their tahreef.

Musa (s) was caliph over all bani-Israel, not only over himself and Harun (a.s), but Jews obedience are another things

Yoshua ibn Noon was not a parallel Allahs caliph beside Musa (a.s)

.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

salam

The tafsir that Ibrahim became an Imam after Prophethood and in old age is not established by the reasoning showed by mufasirs.

[ 2:124] And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with words which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

Verse 2:124 says Ibrahim was tried by his lord. That trial is mentioned in quran.

[37:102] And when he attained to working with him, he said: O my son! surely I have seen in a dream that I should sacrifice you; consider then what you see. He said: O my father! do what you are commanded; if Allah please, you will find me of the patient ones.

[37:103] So when they both submitted and he threw him down upon his forehead,

[ 37:104] and we called out to him "O Abraham!

[37:105] "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.

[37:106] Most surely this is a manifest trial.

Allah subhanahu tried Abraham with’ kalematin’ e.g. words

It is said that Abraham saw dream constantly for three days.and at third day he acted upon his dream.

When he fulfilled the trial

[37:105] "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!"

[2:124] He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

[37:105]- thus indeed do We reward those who do right.

His Nabuwat started at young age.

[21:60] They said, "We heard a youth talk of them: He is called Abraham."

He was tried at old age. Trial is mentioned in quran verses 37:102,106

[14:39] Praise be to Allah, Who has given me in old age Ismail and Ishaq; most surely my Lord is the Hearer of prayer:

This makes more sense since Allah (swt) says Mohammad (saw) and Isa are no more then Messengers. If Imamate was a higher station that Messengers don't necessarily have, then they would be more then Messengers for being Imams. But Imamate is encompassed by Messengerhood, so Allah (swt) said Mohammad and Isa are only but Messengers.

Rasul is also an Arabic word which is derived from the word, Risalat, meaning, to send. Thus, the meaning of Rasul is, one who is sent from Allah

The root word has been used in different ways, with the terms “Arsalna”, “Arsala”, “’Yursil” sometimes referring to Allah sending Messengers, or to Allah sending a punishment, or at other times to a Ruler sending a delegation.

One who is an ambassador or envoy

But Rasul can have different quality and excellence.

And All Rasul are not of eqal rank

[2:253] Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others,

In quran word Rasul is used for Angels,Nabi.,for king sending messenger(12:50)

You can understand true meaning of arabic word ‘Rasul’ from following verse.

[12:50] So the king said: "Bring ye him unto me." But when the messenger came to him, (Joseph) said: "Go thou back to thy lord, and ask him, 'What is the state of mind of the ladies who cut their hands'? For my Lord is certainly well aware of their snare."

Edited by elite
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

I am actually still waiting for a reasonable reply regarding THIS verse. I do not wish for you to bring up another misused verse in order to try to refute this, since you have not managed to explain what this one means

As Elite showed, the Quran is evident of Ibrahim's (as) prophethood as he was a youth. Why has Allah specifically given him exactly the same title (as you would say) many years later and after he endured a grueling test?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

If all Messengers were Imams and Khalifs, it would not exclude those two roles from them. Although as a Messenger, the duty is only conveying of the message, Messengers are automatically Khalifs and Leaders and Guides. This would mean being but a Messenger, implies being a Imam, Leader, and Khalif.

That is why I say it's more logical to say Messengerhood encompasses Imamate, but not the other way around. Every Messenger is an Imam, but not every Imam is a Messenger.

Every Messenger is a Captain that sails the ark of Wilayah by Name of Allah (swt).

I agree with you somewhat, but its like this Imamate is from wilayat, divine authority which the Messenger and Imam also share. Ibrahim by virtue of his Imamate is among the Ulul Azam. A messenger brings a message, a law, he is

exoteric, he may or may not be in tune with the esoteric The greatest prophets have been given awareness of the esoteric. The Imam is esoteric, but a successor, he explains and guides the people to the correct spirit of that law, it maintains the ummat on the path of a messenger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

Salam

Pupose of trial is to manifest to people that who is best in deed among them.

[76:2] Verily We created Man from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him: So We gave him (the gifts), of Hearing and Sight.

[ 67:2] He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-

Things of trial

[2:155] And We will most certainly try you with somewhat of fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient,

[18:7] Surely We have made whatever is on the earth an embellishment for it, so that We may try them (as to) which of them is best in deeds.

[ 21:35] Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial. to Us must ye return.

[ 3:186] You shall certainly be tried respecting your wealth and your souls, and you shall certainly hear from those who have been given the Book before you and from those who are polytheists much annoying talk; and if you are patient and guard (against evil), surely this is one of the affairs (which should be) determined upon.

Who is best in deed among people is Imam.

("Verily, I am going to make you an Imam (a leader) for mankind (to follow you).'') as a reward to Ibrahim because by trial it is proved that he is best in deed,. This is why Allah made Ibrahim a role model for the people, and an Imam whose conduct and path are imitated and followed.

Nabuwwat is post which was given in ‘Alam a arwah’

[3:81] Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

Risalat starts when Nabi is commanded to start is mission of inviting people towards Allah Subhanahu.

By trial one who is best in deed is manifested to people. That person is Imam of people.During era of Ibrahim(A.S.) . two prophets coexisted(Ibrahim(A.S.) ,Lut(A.S.) ) but out of the two Ibrahim(A.S.) is best in deed.

But after Ibrahim(A.S.) Nabuwwat and Imamat both were kept in his progeny.

[29:27] And We gave (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Revelation, and We granted him his reward in this life; and he was in the Hereafter (of the company) of the Righteous.

[ 21:72] And We bestowed on him Isaac and, as an additional gift, (a grandson), Jacob, and We made righteous men of every one (of them).

[21:73] And We made them Imams, guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only).

[3:68] Most surely the best of people with Ibrahim are those who followed him and this Prophet and those who believe and Allah is the guardian of the believers.

So after the out Nabi(S.A.W.) people who are best in deed are Imams.whose obedience is compulsory upon all believers

[ 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and ulil amra from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

Ulil Amra are best of people in Obeying Allah and His messenger.They are our Imams.

Edited by elite
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...