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In the Name of God بسم الله

Immamat

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fallah

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Explain how you could distinguish an Imam from a Prophet.

A Prophet doesn't come with a new law, yet he is sent by God to reaffirm the previous law.

On the whole, after admission of the fact that the Imams are not prophets, we are bound to acknowledge the fact that they are superior to all Prophets and Awsiya (legatees) except our Prophet (salutations and peace upon him and his family). To our knowledge there is no reason not to describe the Imams as Prophets except consideration to the status of the Final Prophet. Our intellect too, cannot perceive a distinction between Nabuwwah (prophethood) and Imamah.

Source: Bihar Al-Anwar, Volume 26, p.82

Muhammad pbuh is the seal of the Prophets, but at the same time you believe people of higher status than prophets come after the Messenger pbuh. If to believe that a prophet comes after Mohammad pbuh is kufr, then how is believing someone higher than Prophet comes after the messenger not kufr??

The argument about seeing and hearing angels doesn't make sense, because Mariam mother of Isa as heard angels too.

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Explain how you could distinguish an Imam from a Prophet.

A Prophet doesn't come with a new law, yet he is sent by God to reaffirm the previous law.

Muhammad pbuh is the seal of the Prophets, but at the same time you believe people of higher status than prophets come after the Messenger pbuh. If to believe that a prophet comes after Mohammad pbuh is kufr, then how is believing someone higher than Prophet comes after the messenger not kufr??

The argument about seeing and hearing angels doesn't make sense, because Mariam mother of Isa as heard angels too.

(bismillah)

(salam) upon the Mo'mineen.

Shaykh Mufid states in Awa'il al-Maqalat, there are three positions as to the status of the Imam:

1) Above Prophets (as) except our Prophet (SAWA)

2) Above the Prophets generally (as) but under the Great Prophets (Ulul Azm)

3) Below all Prophets (as)

ÞÏ ÞØÚ Þæã ãä Ãåá ÇáÅãÇãÉ ÈÝÖá ÇáÃÆãÉ (Ú) ãä Âá ãÍãÏ (Õ) Úáì ÓÇÆÑ ãä ÊÞÏã ãä ÇáÑÓá æÇáÃäÈíÇÁ Óæì äÈíäÇ ãÍãÏ (Õ)¡ æÃæÌÈ ÝÑíÞ ãäåã áåã ÇáÝÖá Úáì ÌãíÚ ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ Óæì Ãæáí ÇáÚÒã ãäåã – Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã – æÃÈì ÇáÞæáíä ÝÑíÞ ãäåã ÂÎÑ æÞØÚæÇ ÈÝÖá ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ ßáåã Úáì ÓÇÆÑ ÇáÃÆãÉ (Ú)¡ æ åÐÇ ÈÇÈ áíÓ ááÚÞæá Ýí ÅíÌÇÈå æÇáãäÚ ãäå ãÌÇá æáÇ Úáì ÃÍÏ ÇáÃÞæÇá Ýíå ÅÌãÇÚ¡ æÞÏ ÌÇÁÊ ÂËÇÑ Úä ÇáäÈí (Õ) Ýí ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä – Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã – æÐÑíÊå ãä ÇáÃÆãÉ¡ æÇáÃÎÈÇÑ Úä ÇáÃÆãÉ ÇáÕÇÏÞíä ÃíÖÇ ãä ÈÚÏ¡ æÝí ÇáÞÑÂä ãæÇÖÚ ÊÞæí ÇáÚÒã Úáì ãÇ ÞÇáå ÇáÝÑíÞ ÇáÃæá Ýí åÐÇ ÇáãÚäì¡ æÃäÇ äÇÙÑ Ýíå æÈÇááå ÇÚÊÕã ãä ÇáÖáÇá

Shaykh Tusi himself admits, he prefers to take a step back and not dwell into such matters:

Úä Þæáå Ýí ÇáÊÝÇÖá Èíä Çæáì ÇáÚÒã ãä ÇáÑÓá æÈíä ÇÆãÊäÇ Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã ÃÌãÚíä¡ ÝÅäí æÌÏÊ ÃÞæÇá ÃÕÍÇÈäÇ Ýí Ðáß ãÎÊáÝÉ. ÇáÌæÇÈ: åÐå ÇáãÓÇÆá ÝíåÇ ÎáÇÝ Èíä ÃÕÍÇÈäÇ¡ ãäåã ãä íÝÖá ÇáÇÆãÉ Úáì ÌãíÚ ÇáÇäÈíÇÁ Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã¡ æãäåã ãä íÝÖá Úáíåã Çæáæ ÇáÚÒã¡ æãäåã ãä íÝÖáåã Úáíåã¡ æÇáÇÎÈÇÑ ãÎÊáÝÉ æÇáÚÞá áÇ íÏá Úáì ÔÆ ãäå¡ æíäÈÛí Ãä äÊæÞÝ Ýí Ðáß¡ æäÌæÒ ÌãíÚ Ðáß

Therefore all we have to say here is that Allamah Majlisi the Second (May Allah bless his soul) made a mistake in his articulation of a concept and that he is a fallible person, and we do not rest the Aqeedah of our Madhhab based on him, secondly why did you fail to mention that Majlisi II quoted Mufid's opinion in the same work.

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When the Quran states the fact that "there will be no more prophets" it is more of the sense that no more revelations and no more new ideas.

Where in the Quran, or hadith for that matter, can one show that divine guidance ends with the Prophet (saw)

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You're confusing terms and concepts that are separate. You can have prophets who are not Imams, Imams who are not prophets, and prophets who are also Imams.

If you are speaking in regards to the communication with the angel, then clearly the twelve Imams (as) were not prophets, rather, they were muhaddatheen. That is (from Basa'ir ad-Darajat):

حدثنا محمد بن يحيى العطار عن محمد بن الحسن بن فروخ الصفار عن العباس بن معروف عن القاسم بن عروه عن بريد العجلى قال سئلت ابا عبدالله عليه السلام عن الرسول والنبى والمحدث قال الرسول الذى تأتيه الملائكة ويعانيهم وتبلغه عن الله تبارك وتعالى والنبى الذى يرى في منامه فهو كما رأى والمحدث الذى يسمع كلام الملائكة وينقر في اذنه وينكت في قلبه.

1 – Muhammad b. Yahya al-`Attar narrated to us from Muhammad b. al-Hasan b. Farukh as-Saffar from al-`Abbas b. Ma`ruf from al-Qasim b. `Urwa from Burayd al-`Ijli. He said: I asked Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام about the messenger, the prophet, and the muhaddath. He said: The messenger is the one who the angels come to, he views them, and they inform him from Allah tabaraka wa ta`ala. And the prophet is the one who sees in his sleep so he is as he saw. And the muhaddath is the one who hears the speech of the angels, and he is pierced in his ear and marked in his heart.

حدثنا محمد بن حسن(1) عن جعفر بن بشير عن ابن بكير عن زرارة عن ابى عبدالله عليه السلام قال سألته عن الرسول فقال الرسول الذى يعاين ملكا يجيئه برسالة عن ربه فتكلمه كمايكلم احدكم صاحبه والنبى لايعاين ملكا انما ينزل عليه الوحى ويرى في منامه قلت ماعلمه اذا رأى في منامه ان هذا حق قال يبينه الله حتى يعلم ان ذلك حق والمحدث يسمع الصوت ولايرى شيئا.

7 – Muhammad b. Hasan narrated to us from Ja`far b. Bashir from Ibn Bukayr from Zurara from Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام. He said: I asked him about the messenger. So he said: The messenger is the one who views an angel. He comes to him with a message from his Lord, and he speaks with him like one of you speak with his companion. And the prophet does not view an angel, only the revelation (al-wahi) descends upon him and he sees in his sleep. I said: And what makes him know when he has seen in sleep that this is true? He said: Allah makes clear to him until he knows that that is true. And the muhaddath hears the voice and does not see anything.

And many more hadiths on this subject.

An Imam however is a leader, the head of an Umma, the one who has authority. It is _not_ necessary that an Imam be a prophet. Nor is a prophet always an Imam. For instance, in the time of the Banu Israel, you could have had kings who were not prophets but yet were at the head of their people. And you could have had that when there were prophets existing, even multiple prophets at one time (while you can only have one head of an Umma at one time). For example, consider Talut and Samuel (as). Samuel was a prophet, yet the kingship was given upon Talut, who was does not appear to have been prophet but yet whom Allah bestowed the kingship upon (and increased him in knowledge and body). In other cases, rulership and prophethood would be put in the same person, e.g. Ibrahim, Dawud, Sulayman (as), Muhammad (pbuh).

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From the ziyarat of Imam Ali (as):

æó æóÕöíöø ÍóÈöíÈößó ÇáóøÐöí ÇäúÊóÌóÈúÊóåõ ãöäú ÎóáúÞößó æó ÇáÏóøáöíáö Úóáóì ãóäú ÈóÚóËúÊóåõ ÈöÑöÓóÇáÇóÊößóþ

æó ÏóíóøÇäö ÇáÏöøíäö ÈöÚóÏúáößó æó ÝóÕúáö ÞóÖóÇÆößó Èóíúäó ÎóáúÞößó

After Your Prophet, the brother of Your Apostle, the executor of Your beloved friend’s will, whom you elected in preference over all Your creation,

áÓóøáÇóãõ Úóáóì ÃóÈöí ÇáúÃóÆöãóøÉö æó Îóáöíáö ÇáäõøÈõæóøÉö æó ÇáúãóÎúÕõæÕö ÈöÇáúÃõÎõæóøÉö

ÇáÓóøáÇóãõ Úóáóì íóÚúÓõæÈö ÇáÏöøíäö æó ÇáúÅöíãóÇäö æó ßóáöãóÉö ÇáÑóøÍúãóäöþ

ÇáÓóøáÇóãõ Úóáóì ãöíÒóÇäö ÇáúÃóÚúãóÇáö æó ãõÞóáöøÈö ÇáúÃóÍúæóÇáö æó ÓóíúÝö Ðöí ÇáúÌóáÇóáö æó ÓóÇÞöí ÇáÓóøáúÓóÈöíáö ÇáÒõøáÇóáöþ

ÇáÓóøáÇóãõ Úóáóì ÕóÇáöÍö ÇáúãõÄúãöäöíäó æó æóÇÑöËö Úöáúãö ÇáäóøÈöíöøíäó æó ÇáúÍóÇßöãö íóæúãó ÇáÏöøíäöþ

ÇáÓóøáÇóãõ Úóáóì ÔóÌóÑóÉö ÇáÊóøÞúæóì æó ÓóÇãöÚö ÇáÓöøÑöø æó ÇáäóøÌúæóìþ

ÇáÓóøáÇóãõ Úóáóì ÍõÌóøÉö Çááóøåö ÇáúÈóÇáöÛóÉö æó äöÚúãóÊöåö ÇáÓóøÇÈöÛóÉö æó äóÞöãóÊöåö ÇáÏóøÇãöÛóÉö

ÇáÓóøáÇóãõ Úóáóì ÇáÕöøÑóÇØö ÇáúæóÇÖöÍö æó ÇáäóøÌúãö ÇááÇóøÆöÍö æó ÇáúÅöãóÇãö ÇáäóøÇÕöÍö æó ÇáÒöøäóÇÏö ÇáúÞóÇÏöÍö æó ÑóÍúãóÉõ Çááóøåö æó ÈóÑóßóÇÊõåõþ

Peace be on the progenator of the Imams, intimately associated with the mission of prophethood. Particularly preferred for the equal affiliation. ….Peace be on the prima donna of the Religion and Belief, the Word of the beneficent. Peace be on the standard model (yardstick, criterion) of the “Ideal way of life”, the director who plans and executes (all) affairs, the “sword” of the Almighty. The distributor of the pure water of the fountain of benevolence and love. Peace be on the benefactor of the faithfuls, the inheritor of the wisdom of the prophets, the administrator of the Day of Judgement. Peace be on the growth (fullness) of piety the hearer of hidden thoughts and secret communications. Peace be on the “argument” Allah put forward as a convincing proof. His all-encompassing mercy, his disciplinary strike….. Peace be on the true and clear path, the distinct and bright star, the sincere and kind Guide,

No prophet was given such honours. End of story.

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From the ziyarat of Imam Ali (as):

æó æóÕöíöø ÍóÈöíÈößó ÇáóøÐöí ÇäúÊóÌóÈúÊóåõ ãöäú ÎóáúÞößó æó ÇáÏóøáöíáö Úóáóì ãóäú ÈóÚóËúÊóåõ ÈöÑöÓóÇáÇóÊößóþ

æó ÏóíóøÇäö ÇáÏöøíäö ÈöÚóÏúáößó æó ÝóÕúáö ÞóÖóÇÆößó Èóíúäó ÎóáúÞößó

After Your Prophet, the brother of Your Apostle, the executor of Your beloved friend’s will, whom you elected in preference over all Your creation,

áÓóøáÇóãõ Úóáóì ÃóÈöí ÇáúÃóÆöãóøÉö æó Îóáöíáö ÇáäõøÈõæóøÉö æó ÇáúãóÎúÕõæÕö ÈöÇáúÃõÎõæóøÉö

ÇáÓóøáÇóãõ Úóáóì íóÚúÓõæÈö ÇáÏöøíäö æó ÇáúÅöíãóÇäö æó ßóáöãóÉö ÇáÑóøÍúãóäöþ

ÇáÓóøáÇóãõ Úóáóì ãöíÒóÇäö ÇáúÃóÚúãóÇáö æó ãõÞóáöøÈö ÇáúÃóÍúæóÇáö æó ÓóíúÝö Ðöí ÇáúÌóáÇóáö æó ÓóÇÞöí ÇáÓóøáúÓóÈöíáö ÇáÒõøáÇóáöþ

ÇáÓóøáÇóãõ Úóáóì ÕóÇáöÍö ÇáúãõÄúãöäöíäó æó æóÇÑöËö Úöáúãö ÇáäóøÈöíöøíäó æó ÇáúÍóÇßöãö íóæúãó ÇáÏöøíäöþ

ÇáÓóøáÇóãõ Úóáóì ÔóÌóÑóÉö ÇáÊóøÞúæóì æó ÓóÇãöÚö ÇáÓöøÑöø æó ÇáäóøÌúæóìþ

ÇáÓóøáÇóãõ Úóáóì ÍõÌóøÉö Çááóøåö ÇáúÈóÇáöÛóÉö æó äöÚúãóÊöåö ÇáÓóøÇÈöÛóÉö æó äóÞöãóÊöåö ÇáÏóøÇãöÛóÉö

ÇáÓóøáÇóãõ Úóáóì ÇáÕöøÑóÇØö ÇáúæóÇÖöÍö æó ÇáäóøÌúãö ÇááÇóøÆöÍö æó ÇáúÅöãóÇãö ÇáäóøÇÕöÍö æó ÇáÒöøäóÇÏö ÇáúÞóÇÏöÍö æó ÑóÍúãóÉõ Çááóøåö æó ÈóÑóßóÇÊõåõþ

Peace be on the progenator of the Imams, intimately associated with the mission of prophethood. Particularly preferred for the equal affiliation. ….Peace be on the prima donna of the Religion and Belief, the Word of the beneficent. Peace be on the standard model (yardstick, criterion) of the “Ideal way of life”, the director who plans and executes (all) affairs, the “sword” of the Almighty. The distributor of the pure water of the fountain of benevolence and love. Peace be on the benefactor of the faithfuls, the inheritor of the wisdom of the prophets, the administrator of the Day of Judgement. Peace be on the growth (fullness) of piety the hearer of hidden thoughts and secret communications. Peace be on the “argument” Allah put forward as a convincing proof. His all-encompassing mercy, his disciplinary strike….. Peace be on the true and clear path, the distinct and bright star, the sincere and kind Guide,

No prophet was given such honours. End of story.

(salam) sayyedna,

Whilst I wouldn't disagree with you on this matter, its not as black and white, and we cant make the madhhab seem unanimous on this.

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(salam) sayyedna,

Whilst I wouldn't disagree with you on this matter, its not as black and white, and we cant make the madhhab seem unanimous on this.

Sheikhna,

I don't see why not. Allamah al-Hilli in Al-Alfayn says that the verse of shahadah (13:43) demonstrates that Ali (as) was a witness to the messengership of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and this in itself, he argues, is enough to prove his Imamat and superiority over others. Even if all the ahadith about the unity in the creation of the Prophet (pbuh) and Imam Ali (as) are ignored, the verse of Mubahala itself proves that as the Nafs of the Prophet (pbuh) if the Prophet (pbuh) is the best of creation (which is not in doubt, regardless of which school of thought you follow, except perhaps the Salafis), Imam Ali (as) is superior over all the rest.

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When the Quran states the fact that "there will be no more prophets" it is more of the sense that no more revelations and no more new ideas.

Where in the Quran, or hadith for that matter, can one show that divine guidance ends with the Prophet (saw)

Uh, some prophets came with no new idea nor new revelation, they were just reaffirming the previous message. Hence, the akward similiture between an Imam and a Prophet.

To me it seems as if you claim something while it is not actually the reality of your claim. You can very well say they are not prophets, yet they have been ascribed the caracteristics of Prophets, and according to most they are even higher. You can call them imams, but you believe them as prophets, even if you claim you don't. Fact is, can you prove my claim wrong? What is so different between them and another prophet of god? Nothing.

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Uh, some prophets came with no new idea nor new revelation, they were just reaffirming the previous message. Hence, the akward similiture between an Imam and a Prophet.

To me it seems as if you claim something while it is not actually the reality of your claim. You can very well say they are not prophets, yet they have been ascribed the caracteristics of Prophets, and according to most they are even higher. You can call them imams, but you believe them as prophets, even if you claim you don't. Fact is, can you prove my claim wrong? What is so different between them and another prophet of god? Nothing.

We believing that the existence of an Imam is a necessity in order for things to work within the universe.

Now you answer me a question

Why is Ibrahim (as) "made" into an Imam when he was already a Prophet. In other words, why was he given the status he already had?

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1) Uh, some prophets came with no new idea nor new revelation, they were just reaffirming the previous message. Hence, the akward similiture between an Imam and a Prophet.

The Prophets saw Angels and had continuous access to them, the Imams (as) did not have this priveledge, nor did Imams recieve commandments from Allah (SWT) such as to go this people or that people.

2) To me it seems as if you claim something while it is not actually the reality of your claim. You can very well say they are not prophets, yet they have been ascribed the caracteristics of Prophets, and according to most they are even higher.

I've quoted you two high ranking scholars, both from our Top Guns in History, prove to us that most say this or admit to being a liar.

You can call them imams, but you believe them as prophets, even if you claim you don't. Fact is, can you prove my claim wrong? What is so different between them and another prophet of god? Nothing.

The Prophets saw Angels and had continuous access to them, the Imams (as) did not have this priveledge, nor did Imams recieve commandments from Allah (SWT) such as to go this people or that people which is a distinct feature of Prophets such as Yunus (as) and others. Secondly, if you merely wish to play games and state that our definition of Imam (as) falls under your definition of Prophet (as) then don't impose your inability to think clearly and recognise distinction onto me.

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We believing that the existence of an Imam is a necessity in order for things to work within the universe.

Now you answer me a question

Why is Ibrahim (as) "made" into an Imam when he was already a Prophet. In other words, why was he given the status he already had?

Was he not already a leader amongst his community? Tell me, have you ever heard of a Prophet who keeps his mouth shut?

If "Imam" is physical leadership, then we can argue that most of your imams never held physical leadership. If you say it is religious, then all prophets were imams.

Let's not exaggerate, if here "Imam" meant a certain divine position, then you should see the same word being used elsewhere for the exact same reason.

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Was he not already a leader amongst his community? Tell me, have you ever heard of a Prophet who keeps his mouth shut?

If "Imam" is physical leadership, then we can argue that most of your imams never held physical leadership. If you say it is religious, then all prophets were imams.

Let's not exaggerate, if here "Imam" meant a certain divine position, then you should see the same word being used elsewhere for the exact same reason.

You have not given me an answer at all.

Then what is this Imamate given to him, if according to you, there is NO difference between the two. I am aching for an explanation.

And I said, an Imam is a Hujjat. It is a necessity for one to exist or else the universe will not be functioning.

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The Prophets saw Angels and had continuous access to them, the Imams (as) did not have this priveledge, nor did Imams recieve commandments from Allah (SWT) such as to go this people or that people.

So was Mariam mother of Isa as a Prophet? perhaps higher in position than the Imams? And if no angel accessed them, how then could they appoint their successor? I'm pretty sure most of your scholars believe angels follow them.

I've quoted you two high ranking scholars, both from our Top Guns in History, prove to us that most say this or admit to being a liar.

Uh, ask your fellow brothers, and see what the majority of them believe. You can also see the first post.

The Prophets saw Angels and had continuous access to them, the Imams (as) did not have this priveledge, nor did Imams recieve commandments from Allah (SWT) such as to go this people or that people which is a distinct feature of Prophets such as Yunus (as) and others. Secondly, if you merely wish to play games and state that our definition of Imam (as) falls under your definition of Prophet (as) then don't impose your inability to think clearly and recognise distinction onto me.

I'm not playing games, rather I see a distinct seperation between the world of prophethood and ordinary man, while I see no division between Prophethood and Imamat.

List the caracteristics of Prophets. compare them to imam. The words are interchangeable, since there's no definite barrier between both.

You have not given me an answer at all.

Then what is this Imamate given to him, if according to you, there is NO difference between the two. I am aching for an explanation.

And I said, an Imam is a Hujjat. It is a necessity for one to exist or else the universe will not be functioning.

There's nothing that was given to him additional to what he already had. I mean, you're the one trying to put meaning into something that is self-evident. He was already infallible, he had angels following him, he was already a prophet. How do all theses caracteristics not include the responsibility of leadership? Do an infallible man need to pass a test in order to be granted something he already had?

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There's nothing that was given to him additional to what he already had. I mean, you're the one trying to put meaning into something that is self-evident. He was already infallible, he had angels following him, he was already a prophet. How do all theses caracteristics not include the responsibility of leadership? Do an infallible man need to pass a test in order to be granted something he already had?

I shall assume your answer was "Theres nothing that was given to him in addition to what he already had"

[shakir 2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

[Pickthal 2:124] And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers.

[Yusufali 2:124] And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

Clearly he was tested, and once he accomplished his task, this "imamate" was given to him. If this is no additional merit, then what is the whole point of this test? And why would he be MADE into something he already is?

The guidance of the Imam is not restricted to a certain group of people, whereas prophets (that were not Imams) were.

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So was Mariam mother of Isa as a Prophet? perhaps higher in position than the Imams? And if no angel accessed them, how then could they appoint their successor? I'm pretty sure most of your scholars believe angels follow them.

No, We believe Prophets (as) were only from the men, I am not appealing to Mariam being an Imam, rather she has a unique position. Why would I choose to again speculate who outranks who? This is a shallow way of thinking, she has her rank, the Imams (as) have their own.

Their Successors were appointed via Nass from Allah (SWT) which remained with the Imams (as) by transmission, angels accessed them but not akin to the way they accessed the Prophets (as)

Uh, ask your fellow brothers, and see what the majority of them believe. You can also see the first post.

The Laypeople, do not represent tradition, I returned to a scholar, in fact two, I am asking you to do the same.

I'm not playing games, rather I see a distinct seperation between the world of prophethood and ordinary man, while I see no division between Prophethood and Imamat.

List the caracteristics of Prophets. compare them to imam. The words are interchangeable, since there's no definite barrier between both

1) Prophets were dispatched to go and preach to different nations themselves by Allah (SWT)

2) Imams are sent for Political and Religious Guidance that is their role, only some Prophets (as) fell under the former.

3) Imams do not see angels

4) Prophets see Angels

5) Allah has defined the rank of Prophethood different to that of Imamate

6) Revelation given to Prophets ceased after Prophet Muhammad (SAW)

7) Imamate continued after Prophet Muhammad.

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I shall assume your answer was "Theres nothing that was given to him in addition to what he already had"

[shakir 2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

[Pickthal 2:124] And (remember) when his Lord tried Abraham with (His) commands, and he fulfilled them, He said: Lo! I have appointed thee a leader for mankind. (Abraham) said: And of my offspring (will there be leaders)? He said: My covenant includeth not wrong-doers.

[Yusufali 2:124] And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

Clearly he was tested, and once he accomplished his task, this "imamate" was given to him. If this is no additional merit, then what is the whole point of this test? And why would he be MADE into something he already is?

The guidance of the Imam is not restricted to a certain group of people, whereas prophets (that were not Imams) were.

Lol, Talut is always used as an example of a non-prophetic imam. Was he not an imam restricted to a few people?

And read the verse again, it isn't a divine status, he was already a leader, but Allah would support him now to make this leadership apparent. All that it is saying.

And even if it is as you say it is, the fact that Allah appointed a prophet to lead his nation does in no way mean Allah has made leaders after our Prophet. And his offsrpings can very well mean the known prophets that came after him, and not your 12 imams. When the word imam was used in the quran, has it ever been used in a positive light to someone other than a prophet?

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Lol, Talut is always used as an example of a non-prophetic imam. Was he not an imam restricted to a few people?

So has Muhammad (saw) and Ali (as) and all other Imams. None of them have physically been under the entire world, but that does not restrict their guidance upon them.

And read the verse again, it isn't a divine status, he was already a leader, but Allah would support him now to make this leadership apparent. All that it is saying.

This is an interesting theory which I havent heard before. Why would Allah make his "leadership" apparent NOW? At what time was this "Imamate" of his revealed and what had Ibrahim (as) already accomplished in his life? You are suggesting that it was made "apparent" (whatever you mean by that) at that stage of his life? I am not too sure about the Islamic dates, but Ibrahim (as) was about 100 years old when Ishaq (as) was born.

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1) Prophets were dispatched to go and preach to different nations themselves by Allah (SWT)

Imams were dispatched to go and preach to different generations themselves by Allah (SWT)

2) Imams are sent for Political and Religious Guidance that is their role, only some Prophets (as) fell under the former.

Most of your imams had nothing to do with political leadership. All prophets were for religious guidance. All imams we for religious guidance.

3) Imams do not see angels
4) Prophets see Angels

Ah, so women can see angels but imams can't. Good to know, makes perfect sense.

5) Allah has defined the rank of Prophethood different to that of Imamate

The word "Imam" was always used for a prophet (if used in a positive way).

6) Revelation given to Prophets ceased after Prophet Muhammad (SAW)

Revelations are not what defines prophethood, so your point is moot.

7) Imamate continued after Prophet Muhammad.

bleh

This is an interesting theory which I havent heard before. Why would Allah make his "leadership" apparent NOW? At what time was this "Imamate" of his revealed and what had Ibrahim (as) already accomplished in his life? You are suggesting that it was made "apparent" (whatever you mean by that) at that stage of his life? I am not too sure about the Islamic dates, but Ibrahim (as) was about 100 years old when Ishaq (as) was born.

Meaning, he was born a leader, but his mission as a leader did begin after that test. He was not told to physically lead but after that test, although he was already a leader by being a prophet. It's a consequence of prophethood to be a leader. I mean at the very least he is preaching, thus leading to the truth. I cannot understand how one can believe that prophethood does not entail the responsibility of leadership. Some prophets were leaders at a young age, while others were older. Some prophets were physical leaders as well, while others were not. Most of your imams were not physical leaders, so all that is left to defend that theory is religious leadership, something all prophets inherently possesed.

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Meaning, he was born a leader, but his mission as a leader did begin after that test. He was not told to physically lead but after that test, although he was already a leader by being a prophet. It's a consequence of prophethood to be a leader. I mean at the very least he is preaching, thus leading to the truth. I cannot understand how one can believe that prophethood does not entail the responsibility of leadership. Some prophets were leaders at a young age, while others were older. Some prophets were physical leaders as well, while others were not. Most of your imams were not physical leaders, so all that is left to defend that theory is religious leadership, something all prophets inherently possesed.

I have not said Prophethood does not require leadership.

Do you know anything about Ibrahim (as)? "His mission began after that test", at what age was he given that test? That is a bizarre thing to say. He was born as a leader but he only "became" a leader nearing the end of his death? Despite the countless years he was preaching and making people understand before (this test)?

Imamate AND Prophethood both require leadership, but in different quantities. A Prophet is not required to spiritually guide the world, only those around him and preach what is right. Imamate is the guide for mankind, whether you see your Imam or have not even heard his name. Political leadership is not important in these roles, certain some had it, others did not. It is not what defines a Prophet nor Imam.

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I have not said Prophethood does not require leadership.

Do you know anything about Ibrahim (as)? "His mission began after that test", at what age was he given that test? That is a bizarre thing to say. He was born as a leader but he only "became" a leader nearing the end of his death? Despite the countless years he was preaching and making people understand before (this test)?

Imamate AND Prophethood both require leadership, but in different quantities. A Prophet is not required to spiritually guide the world, only those around him and preach what is right. Imamate is the guide for mankind, whether you see your Imam or have not even heard his name. Political leadership is not important in these roles, certain some had it, others did not. It is not what defines a Prophet nor Imam.

Funny thing is, can you say otherwise about your imams? Weren't they born leaders, yet most of them never became? And also, you say he did the test while he was old. How is that not hitting yourself in the foot, since this imam clearly doesn't mean leadership in the sense you understand it?

Point is, I don't see that test as a step to gain something. Abraham was already "friend of Allah", a prophet, infallible. There's nothing he could gain through that test except additional reward for his actions. And that sentence that comes after it can be understood in multiple ways and are much more consistent with the facts than what you are proposing. When Allah says "I will make you a leader of men", it could mean that Allah is telling him that he regards him as among the most pious of men, it could also mean that he is the father of many prophets and generations to come, hence he is their leader as a father, as the original Hanif which the subsequent prophets emulate in terms of faith and piousness. And when he asks Allah to make imams from his progeny, we most likely think of Isaac and Ishmael, way before thinking of the 5th and 6th imam, don't you think? Why exaggerate?

And btw, every nation has a guide, but you're just being oblivious here. Our Prophet was sent to all of mankind, he's therefore our guide today. When Allah says there's a guide for every nation, it reflects the same meaning as this verse,

16:36 And certainly We raised in every nation a messenger saying: Serve Allah and shun the Shaitan. So there were some of them whom Allah guided and there were others against whom error was due; therefore travel in the land, then see what was the end of the rejecters.

No need to exaggerate anything, the book of Allah is clear.

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(bismillah)

Funny thing is, can you say otherwise about your imams? Weren't they born leaders, yet most of them never became? And also, you say he did the test while he was old. How is that not hitting yourself in the foot, since this imam clearly doesn't mean leadership in the sense you understand it?

What is true for one Wali of Allah, is not true for another. One was born it, one was not. If Ibrahim was already an Imam, how would it make sense that Allah said he would then make him an Imam? You can't become what you already are.

Point is, I don't see that test as a step to gain something. Abraham was already "friend of Allah", a prophet, infallible. There's nothing he could gain through that test except additional reward for his actions. And that sentence that comes after it can be understood in multiple ways and are much more consistent with the facts than what you are proposing. When Allah says "I will make you a leader of men", it could mean that Allah is telling him that he regards him as among the most pious of men, it could also mean that he is the father of many prophets and generations to come, hence he is their leader as a father, as the original Hanif which the subsequent prophets emulate in terms of faith and piousness. And when he asks Allah to make imams from his progeny, we most likely think of Isaac and Ishmael, way before thinking of the 5th and 6th imam, don't you think? Why exaggerate?

Do you understand the durood shareef that Sunnis say during their salaah? Salaatul Ibrahimiyyah. You bless Rasulullah (pbuh) AND his Aal like Ibraheem AND his Aal were blessed. What would both their Aal have in common? Have Imams.

Everything else in your post is just speculation and not based on any sort of Tafseer of the ayah.

And btw, every nation has a guide, but you're just being oblivious here. Our Prophet was sent to all of mankind, he's therefore our guide today. When Allah says there's a guide for every nation, it reflects the same meaning as this verse,

16:36 And certainly We raised in every nation a messenger saying: Serve Allah and shun the Shaitan. So there were some of them whom Allah guided and there were others against whom error was due; therefore travel in the land, then see what was the end of the rejecters.

No need to exaggerate anything, the book of Allah is clear.

Then, even in sunni tafseer (with a haSan chain), would Rasulullah (pbuh) speak this ayah:

13:7

And those who disbelieved say, "Why has a sign not been sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and for every people is a guide

Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani in his Fath al-Bari Sharh Sahih all-Bukhari vol. 8, p. 376 states:

ما أخرجه الطبري بإسناد حسن من طريق سعيد بن جبير عن بن عباس قال

لما نزلت هذه الآية وضع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يده على صدره وقال

أنا المنذر وأومأ إلى على وقال أنت الهادي بك يهتدي المهتدون بعدي

Al-Tabari has narrated WITH A HASAN CHAIN through the route of Sa'eed ibn Jubayr from Ibn Abbas who said: When the verse "You are only a warner, and to every people there is a guide" was revealed, Allah's Apostle placed his hand on his chest and said: "I am the warner". Addressing Ali, he said: "You are the guide. Those seeking guidance will gain it through you after me".

Ahmad ibn Yahya al-Sufi - Hasan ibn Husayn al-Ansari - Mu'az ibn Muslim - al-Harwi - 'Atau ibn Saaib - Sa'eed ibn Jubayr - Ibn 'Abbas - The Holy Prophet (pbuh), while commenting upon Qur’an 13:7 (“You are only a warner, and for every people there is a guide”):

I am the warner, and for every people there is a guide. And you Ali are the guide. Those seeking guidance will attain it through you after me.

Tafsir al-Tabari, Vol. 13, p. 108: narrated through a sahih chain.

Besides, Imam Al-Hakim has recorded it in his al-Mustadrak and declared it sahih.

Al-Haythami too in his Majma al-Zawaid has said: All the narrators are thiqah.

The job of the Aimmah (as) is not to go and warn the kufaar like Prophets (as) were. They were not sent to societies of kufr to bring the message of La Ilaha ilallah, their job is to preserve the Religion perfectly. Also know that shari'ah and divine law changes with Prophets (as); not with Imams (as). The other differences have been enumerated to you in previous posts.

Political leadership is their right not their decreed purpose. The fact that the Imams (as) were not political rulers does not nullify their position of Imam (as).

Maryum (sa) is neither prophet nor imam, her place is a separate and different one; she shares not duties of prophet nor an imam because she wasn't either. Her place is separate and unique. Also, it isn't proven she saw the angels nor that she saw them in angelic form; I know for sure some sunnis say that Jibrael (as) came to her in a human form.

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Funny thing is, can you say otherwise about your imams? Weren't they born leaders, yet most of them never became? And also, you say he did the test while he was old. How is that not hitting yourself in the foot, since this imam clearly doesn't mean leadership in the sense you understand it?

How exactly does this shoot me in the foot? Imamate does not have to be something that lasts 50 years, Hassan al Askari (as) was only alive for 20 somewhat years, and he wasnt even an Imam for the whole time. Our concept is that one Imam, and only a single one, must exist at all times. Whatever you are trying to get at with this comment is not relevant.

Point is, I don't see that test as a step to gain something. Abraham was already "friend of Allah", a prophet, infallible. There's nothing he could gain through that test except additional reward for his actions. And that sentence that comes after it can be understood in multiple ways and are much more consistent with the facts than what you are proposing. When Allah says "I will make you a leader of men", it could mean that Allah is telling him that he regards him as among the most pious of men, it could also mean that he is the father of many prophets and generations to come, hence he is their leader as a father, as the original Hanif which the subsequent prophets emulate in terms of faith and piousness. And when he asks Allah to make imams from his progeny, we most likely think of Isaac and Ishmael, way before thinking of the 5th and 6th imam, don't you think? Why exaggerate?

Interesting, when is Tafsir al fallah to be published? You can see it however you like, unless you have actual evidence, or even reason for that matter, you cannot expect others to see it like this too.

Since when has saying "I will make you a leader of men" can be interpreted as "I regard you as the most pious men"? You truly misunderstand if you can actually maintain this thought.

Reality is, your hypothesis for this verse are nothing which corroborates the rest of the Muslims, Shia and Sunni alike, nor is there any reasonable grounds for someone to believe them.

Imam in this verse IS translated to leader, I do not see anyone disputing this. Thus, here, Ibrahim (as) has been made a LEADER when he already held leadership. You are trying to tell me that the word leader is used to suggest "pious" and "father".

You need to clear up this citation first before you go attempting to refute the concept of Imamate.

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You have not given me an answer at all.

Then what is this Imamate given to him, if according to you, there is NO difference between the two. I am aching for an explanation.

And I said, an Imam is a Hujjat. It is a necessity for one to exist or else the universe will not be functioning.

Sorry if I missed this, but who was the Imam before and after?

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How exactly does this shoot me in the foot? Imamate does not have to be something that lasts 50 years, Hassan al Askari (as) was only alive for 20 somewhat years, and he wasnt even an Imam for the whole time. Our concept is that one Imam, and only a single one, must exist at all times. Whatever you are trying to get at with this comment is not relevant.

Who was the Imam between Jesus and Muhammad?

Interesting, when is Tafsir al fallah to be published? You can see it however you like, unless you have actual evidence, or even reason for that matter, you cannot expect others to see it like this too.

You're the one exagerating the word "Imam". Like I said, everytime this word was used in a positive light, it refered to a prophet. It never refered to an "infallible man".

Since when has saying "I will make you a leader of men" can be interpreted as "I regard you as the most pious men"? You truly misunderstand if you can actually maintain this thought. Reality is, your hypothesis for this verse are nothing which corroborates the rest of the Muslims, Shia and Sunni alike, nor is there any reasonable grounds for someone to believe them.

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=3373

Read. I didn't even look at this before writing my reply. Seems me and ibn Kathir saw the same thing. Truely, you're exagerating.

Imam in this verse IS translated to leader, I do not see anyone disputing this. Thus, here, Ibrahim (as) has been made a LEADER when he already held leadership. You are trying to tell me that the word leader is used to suggest "pious" and "father".

Read. (Say (O Muhammad ): "Truly, my Lord has guided me to a straight path, a right religion, the religion of Ibrahim, Hanifan, and Ibrahim (to worship none but Allah, alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrikin.'') (6:161)

Thus, Abraham was made leader in terms of piousness and a figure to emulate for the people to come. In that sense, Abraham is said to be leader of men.

You need to clear up this citation first before you go attempting to refute the concept of Imamate.

Fact is, give the quran to anyone, let him read it, and he'll never see this imamat concept. And even if he does see Allah appoints some leaders, he will not find that Allah appointed leaders after Muhammad.

Have fun.

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Who was the Imam between Jesus and Muhammad?

It is not necessary for an Imam to declare himself. He has to be found

Fact is, give the quran to anyone, let him read it, and he'll never see this imamat concept. And even if he does see Allah appoints some leaders, he will not find that Allah appointed leaders after Muhammad.

You can read through the Quran and miss out important concepts. It the fault of the reader. Maybe he was more contemplative he would have seen. The Heirs of the prophets are their kin. This much even a child knows

Your problem is that you have a narrow field of view. You see knowledge coming from form Allah as being something of a rarity. While truth is all knowledge comes from Allah, who is the source of all things, what is different is your level of awareness of the true source.

“Once al-Hassan ibn al-‘Abbass al-Ma‘rufi wrote to Imam al-

Rida, recipient of divine supreme covenant, ‘May Allah keep my

soul in service for your cause, explain to me the difference

between the messengers, the prophets and the Imam.’ The Imam

said or wrote, ‘The difference between the messengers, the

prophets and the Imam is that a messenger is one to whom Jibril

(Gabriel) comes. He sees Jibril and hears his speech and Jibril

(the angel) brings him (Divine) revelation and sometimes he

may see in his dream something like the dream of Abraham

(peace be upon him). A prophet is one who may hear the speech

(of the angel) and may see (his) person and may not hear (him).

The Imam is the one who hears the speech but does not see the

person (of the angel).’”

Al Kafi-Book of People with Divine Authority H 435 Ch. 3, h2

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Who was the Imam between Jesus and Muhammad?

Already answered. Even if we do not who they were, it does not mean they did not exist.

You're the one exagerating the word "Imam". Like I said, everytime this word was used in a positive light, it refered to a prophet. It never refered to an "infallible man".

I am not exaggerating it. I am simply asking why it is used to clarify something he already was.

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=3373

Read. I didn't even look at this before writing my reply. Seems me and ibn Kathir saw the same thing. Truely, you're exagerating.

I fail to understand how Ibn Kathir believes that these verse initiated his "fatherhood" or his "piousness". This is what he says,

("Verily, I am going to make you an Imam (a leader) for mankind (to follow you).'') as a reward for Ibrahim's good deeds, adhering to the commandments and avoiding the prohibitions. This is why Allah made Ibrahim a role model for the people, and an Imam whose conduct and path are imitated and followed.

In other words he was made a role model only after this late incident in his life. Before it no one acknowledged him as a leader nor a guide nor a role model?

And Imam in this instance must be translated as "role model". That word Imam cannot even be used in that context.

Read. (Say (O Muhammad ): "Truly, my Lord has guided me to a straight path, a right religion, the religion of Ibrahim, Hanifan, and Ibrahim (to worship none but Allah, alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrikin.'') (6:161)

Thus, Abraham was made leader in terms of piousness and a figure to emulate for the people to come. In that sense, Abraham is said to be leader of men.

You are suggesting that only after this incident his "popularity" grew? And was he not the "leader" of piousness before this incident? If not, who was it? Who was leading the world with their piosuness?

Fact is, give the quran to anyone, let him read it, and he'll never see this imamat concept. And even if he does see Allah appoints some leaders, he will not find that Allah appointed leaders after Muhammad.

Your reply for this verse is extremely weak and any sane minded person can see this. You are simply trying to brush this off with weak responses in other to bring out your other strong challenges. You have already made yourself believe the fairytale reply you have given me for this verse, and if you do not see the weakness in your argument, then perhaps you need to study further. Your basis for your argument is upon premises which are most probably false, and there is no actual evidence behind them. Rather theories which you have created on your own feet. My use of logic to differentiate between Imamate and Prophethood lies within this very verse. I cannot take the word "Imam" in this instance to mean anything but what it says. I am not going to assume it means fatherhood of the Prophets nor that his "real" piousness began. It is absurd and if you honestly believe any rational person can have this same view, then you need to question your own rationality.

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I understand that the hadith in question actually talks about a "Hujat" of Allah existing at all times. A Prophet is also a Hujat.

Salams

Yahia didn't live for 600 years, and to my knowledge he came at the time of Jesus. And of course, point out the source for the rest. And ofc, we can play the game and say Jesus was already a hujjat after the prophet as he is in occultation, so the existance of mehdi isn't needed for this constant hujjat concept.

It is not necessary for an Imam to declare himself. He has to be found

The more this discussion goes on, the more ludicrous theses claims are.

Allah declared himself and didn't wait for anyone to find him. It follows that the proof of Allah would declare himself, not hide.

You can read through the Quran and miss out important concepts. It the fault of the reader. Maybe he was more contemplative he would have seen. The Heirs of the prophets are their kin. This much even a child knows

No, it isn't the fault of the reader if Allah talks off Imamat in a so obscure way. Your claims are only insulting the Book of Guidance of being esoteric, dark, secret, when truth should shine, and should be evident. The word Imam appears not so many times, and it has been used for disbelievers too. It also has been used for something else than "leader". You can't blame me for not believing your claims. If you passed primary school, you should know words have more than one meaning, and they depend on context. and when words are clear, you can't invent another meaning to it and go against the context. The projeny of Abraham is most likely Isaac and Ishamel. If one goes to a larger sense, it also includes the subsequent prophets, knowing that Allah said the prophets are of one family. No way could this mean something else. And yes their heirs are their kins, just like we all consider ourselves heirs of the Prophet. You,re telling me that I have a narrow view while you've been discussing theses words only in a narrow view.

Your problem is that you have a narrow field of view. You see knowledge coming from form Allah as being something of a rarity. While truth is all knowledge comes from Allah, who is the source of all things, what is different is your level of awareness of the true source.

I'm not narrowing down anything, you're the ones who keep telling me the word Imam here refers to Imammat, while I'm saying it refers to something more general. Your sentence is as obscure as your concept. Using mysticism to cover reality is not a valid way to convince someone of an evident matter.

‘The difference between the messengers, the

prophets and the Imam is that a messenger is one to whom Jibril

(Gabriel) comes. He sees Jibril and hears his speech and Jibril

(the angel) brings him (Divine) revelation and sometimes he

may see in his dream something like the dream of Abraham

(peace be upon him). A prophet is one who may hear the speech

(of the angel) and may see (his) person and may not hear (him).

The Imam is the one who hears the speech but does not see the

person (of the angel).’”

Mariam herd an angel, and maybe even saw him.

I fail to see how a relationship with jibrel can define your mission.

Allah talked to Moses directly, wouldn't that mean he's more than a messenger?

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Yahia didn't live for 600 years, and to my knowledge he came at the time of Jesus. And of course, point out the source for the rest. And ofc, we can play the game and say Jesus was already a hujjat after the prophet as he is in occultation, so the existance of mehdi isn't needed for this constant hujjat concept.

You could play the game, but it would take you outside the fold of Islam as you'd be rejecting the hujjat of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) in order to do so. Isa isn't in occultation, he's in the heavens. Imam Zaman (as) is in the earth. You might want to learn a thing or two before you start making claims you don't have the knowledge or the sense to back up.

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Yahia didn't live for 600 years, and to my knowledge he came at the time of Jesus. And of course, point out the source for the rest.

I have already shared a reference which provides their chronological order of appearance. What do you mean point out the source ? There were atleast 3 other hujats after Yahia.

And ofc, we can play the game and say Jesus was already a hujjat after the prophet as he is in occultation, so the existance of mehdi isn't needed for this constant hujjat concept.

Havn't you read in your ahadith books that Jesus a.s will pray (as a Muslim ummati) behind Hazrat Mehdi a.s ?

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I have already shared a reference which provides their chronological order of appearance. What do you mean point out the source ? There were atleast 3 other hujats after Yahia.

Havn't you read in your ahadith books that Jesus a.s will pray (as a Muslim ummati) behind Hazrat Mehdi a.s ?

As I am free of this sectarian game, there's no set of hadith that defines me. I'm restricted to evidence, no labels.

And the fact that he prays in front of him doesn't mean there are 12 infallible imams appointed by Allah. I fail to see your point.

Why is your mehdi any more valid than someone else's mehdi? Look back at history, mehdis were everywhere. Why is yours the correct one? Because your own books say so?

You could play the game, but it would take you outside the fold of Islam as you'd be rejecting the hujjat of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) in order to do so. Isa isn't in occultation, he's in the heavens. Imam Zaman (as) is in the earth. You might want to learn a thing or two before you start making claims you don't have the knowledge or the sense to back up.

In both cases they are in occultation, as occultation related to be hidden, out of sight, in the gheyb. There's Khudr too on earth, amirite?

And I fail to see how one would be out of the fold of Islam.

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As I am free of this sectarian game, there's no set of hadith that defines me. I'm restricted to evidence, no labels.

And the fact that he prays in front of him doesn't mean there are 12 infallible imams appointed by Allah. I fail to see your point.

Why is your mehdi any more valid than someone else's mehdi? Look back at history, mehdis were everywhere. Why is yours the correct one? Because your own books say so?

What do you mean my Mehdi ? I thought you were unbiased and did not indulge in labels and sects ? Seems like you havn't read the traditions in sunni and shia texts which clearly mention Him (Al-Mehdi).....The Mehdi I am talking about is mentioned in many Islamic books, sunni & shia.

And the fact that Hazrat Isa a.s is praying behind Hazrat Mehdi a.s does show that Hazrat Isa a.s is not the Supreme Authority and/or Hujjah after the Prophet Muhammad P.b.u.H. Because someone else (from the progeny of the Prophet P.b.u.h) is leading the Muslims.

Salams

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What do you mean my Mehdi ? I thought you were unbiased and did not indulge in labels and sects ? Seems like you havn't read the traditions in sunni and shia texts which clearly mention Him (Al-Mehdi).....The Mehdi I am talking about is mentioned in many Islamic books, sunni & shia.

And the fact that Hazrat Isa a.s is praying behind Hazrat Mehdi a.s does show that Hazrat Isa a.s is not the Supreme Authority and/or Hujjah after the Prophet Muhammad P.b.u.H. Because someone else (from the progeny of the Prophet P.b.u.h) is leading the Muslims.

Salams

"Your" mehdi, because back at that time many were claiming to be the mehdi. I am unbiased. Why is your mehdi more valid in terms of evidence than someone else's claim? Even according to your own stories the Mehdi was hidden from the public and went through a minor occultation, how am I supposed to believe that your mehdi even existed? Can you provide evidence from other books where Al Askari had a son, and that this son was the mehdi? That he was hidden, etc.?

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