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In the Name of God بسم الله

Immamat

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fallah

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"Your" mehdi, because back at that time many were claiming to be the mehdi. I am unbiased. Why is your mehdi more valid in terms of evidence than someone else's claim? Even according to your own stories the Mehdi was hidden from the public and went through a minor occultation, how am I supposed to believe that your mehdi even existed? Can you provide evidence from other books where Al Askari had a son, and that this son was the mehdi?

The discussion was never about who (in person) is the actual Mehdi. So I don't see the point of your argument. The discussion was about who is supposed to be the Hujat and/or Authority for Muslims from Allah. You claimed that Prophet Isa is the Hujjah after Prophet Muhammad P.b.u.H; thus, according to you there is no need/place of Mehdi. Whereas I was clarifying that there IS a prominent figure in Islamic history known as Hazrat Mehdi. You can call him an Imam or a muhadith.....either way, He will be the one leading the Ummah.

Now as to whether He is an existing Hujjat in ghaybat, this is a debatable topic. Shias believe that He is and they have references to support their point. Sunnis have a variety of opinions. Some of them believe that He is the 12th and the spiritual Imam (only) and from the progeny of the Prophet. Others believe that He will be born as a muhadith and will be from the Progeny of the Prophet. And there are those who even believe that He is not from the Progeny of the Prophet and/or they don't really believe in Him at all.

Salams

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The discussion was never about who (in person) is the actual Mehdi. So I don't see the point of your argument. The discussion was about who is supposed to be the Hujat and/or Authority for Muslims from Allah. You claimed that Prophet Isa is the Hujjah after Prophet Muhammad P.b.u.H; thus, according to you there is no need/place of Mehdi. Whereas I was clarifying that there IS a prominent figure in Islamic history known as Hazrat Mehdi. You can call him an Imam or a muhadith.....either way, He will be the one leading the Ummah.

Now as to whether He is an existing Hujjat in ghaybat, this is a debatable topic. Shias believe that He is and they have references to support their point. Sunnis have a variety of opinions. Some of them believe that He is the 12th and the spiritual Imam (only) and from the progeny of the Prophet. Others believe that He will be born as a muhadith and will be from the Progeny of the Prophet. And there are those who even believe that He is not from the Progeny of the Prophet and/or they don't really believe in Him at all.

Salams

Typically, people ask about the mehdi because the claims about him are huge and at the same time obscure. And I don't see why there should be a hujjah at all times, I just resorted to saying that there were already hujjas on earth, so him being a necessity isn't valid.

So yes, can you provide the documents about the mehdi being your 12th imam? When and where he was born? Any documented existence of him in books of other groups?

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(bismillah)

Typically, people ask about the mehdi because the claims about him are huge and at the same time obscure. And I don't see why there should be a hujjah at all times, I just resorted to saying that there were already hujjas on earth, so him being a necessity isn't valid.

The other individuals are not the Hujjah that Allah (swt) uses to sustain the world. Imam al-`Asr (as) is Imam over them, whether they be Prophet or Rasul (as). They would be followers of Rasulullah (pbuh) and obedient to his successors and subservient to them.

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Typically, people ask about the mehdi because the claims about him are huge and at the same time obscure. And I don't see why there should be a hujjah at all times, I just resorted to saying that there were already hujjas on earth, so him being a necessity isn't valid.

Firstly, there are many signs of an Immaculate Imam in general and Imam Mehdi in specific. So people cannot really be fooled by others unless they are at the peak of illiteracy & ignorance. Secondly, its not really a discussion of whether YOU like to have a hujjah or not.

Sayings of the Prophet (as per both sunni & shia school) confirm that there will be 12 Leaders/Guides/Caliphs. Shia school of thought preaches that those Guides (Imams) of Islam after the Prophet P.b.u.H have to be Immaculate because that is how we can ensure that we are learning the precise teachings of the Prophet P.b.u.H. Imam Mehdi is the last Immaculate Imam a.s. One can argue how he assists fellow Muslims. Well how does Hazrat Khizar assist Gods people according to Quran ? One can also argue why He is in occultation. Well do Muslims know how many Prophets went through the process of occultation ?

So yes, can you provide the documents about the mehdi being your 12th imam? When and where he was born? Any documented existence of him in books of other groups?

I think you should make a lil bit of an effort yourself. Imam Mehdi is so common in Islamic literature.......if you don't know him well enough, you have to quit debating on active forums such as Shiachat and start reading more books before you return to this forum.

Salams

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I think according to the New Testament, Yahya (John the Baptist) was killed during the lifetime of Jesus.

The Yahya (son of Zikriya) mentioned in Sheikh Sadooqs book is a hujjat of Allah prior to the birth of Prophet Isa (Jesus) a.s

There were 3 known hujats of Allah (Divine Authorities) after Yahya sent before Jesus.

Salams

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It is not right for any Sunni to challenge or ask for the proof of Immamate. Sunnis also believe in Imammate however this fact has become obscured in the rush to challenge anything that sounds vaguely Shia.

Sunnis believe in an 'Imam Mahdi' a messianic figure who will right all wrongs and put the Muslim Ummah back on the right path eventually allowing islam to triumph in the world. It has been suggested that this will be an ordinairy man with every day faults who will become infused with a messianic ability and power (presumably by Allah) to enable him to complete Allah work.

The important part I think is that is brought about by Allah's intervention ie infusing a 'superhuman' ability in an ordinairy man. This infusion is what creates an Imam.

The Shias believe that this infusion of Imammate is from birth (if not before birth) and this infusion of superhumaness started 1400 years ago and continues to date.

Sunnis believe the 'super humanness' ended with the Holy Prophet (pbuhahp) had a brief interlude with Khialafat Rashidoon and then Imam Bukhari and will happen again with the Imam Mahdi.

Therefore discusions of whether Allah infuses any abilities in man after the Holy Prophet are really just academic since both sects rely on 'superhumaness' to justify their existence.

(apologies for using terms like superhumaness but by it I mean abilities beyond ordinairy man

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Salaam

While I don’t have any doubt in Immamat, if I did then reading some of these posts would make me even more doubtful.

An Imam has to be found? He exists but no-one knows him?

Some of these answers that have been provided to Fallah are nothing but hole fillers i.e. seems like there’s a hole in the reasoning/logic so lets make something up that could be true.

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Salaam

While I don’t have any doubt in Immamat, if I did then reading some of these posts would make me even more doubtful.

An Imam has to be found? He exists but no-one knows him?

Some of these answers that have been provided to Fallah are nothing but hole fillers i.e. seems like there’s a hole in the reasoning/logic so lets make something up that could be true.

There are evidences for these, I have not given them since I was more interested in arguing my point, to which he has not bothered to reply anymore

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There are evidences for these, I have not given them since I was more interested in arguing my point, to which he has not bothered to reply anymore

What point?

Did Allah ever say in the Quran that he leaves us 12 men from the progeny of our Prophet that we are bound to follow them?

Does he even say that he leaves us the progeny of muhammad to follow?

Does he even say that he left divine guided men after the prophet?

Did he even say that he appointed leaders after the Prophet?

No he doesn't. All of this is fabricated. You believe in it because someone told you about it, not because you found it in Allah's words. You guide Allah's words with this concept in your mind instead of actually looking at the book of Allah and see if this thing exists.

Show us all the verses you think somehow "hint" to that, then we will look into the context of theses verse.

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In both cases they are in occultation,

No they are not.

as occultation related to be hidden, out of sight, in the gheyb. There's Khudr too on earth, amirite?

Neither Khidhr nor Isa have authority as prophets even though they are alive. So obviously there is a difference.
And I fail to see how one would be out of the fold of Islam.

If you are claiming for Isa what we claim for Mahdi, it means you are out of the fold of Islam on two counts: firstly, you believe in the continuity of the prophethood of Isa, and thereby reject the prophethood of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) (for if Isa's prophethood is continued because of his life, then there's no need for any other prophet), and secondly because you've favoured Bani Israel over Aal Muhammad (pbuh), for in the former, there were good and bad, while in the latter, your prayer is incomplete without salawat upon them.

What point?

Did Allah ever say in the Quran that he leaves us 12 men from the progeny of our Prophet that we are bound to follow them?

The successors (awsiya, not all of whom were prophets) of all previous prophets have been twelve, and the sunnah of Allah does not change, both of these facts are mentioned in the Qur'an. Why would it be any different for the best of Allah's messengers?

Does he even say that he leaves us the progeny of muhammad to follow?

Even if you do not rely on the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) - which you have to rely upon as per the command in the Holy Qur'an - there are many ayat which prove the following of the best of people, and there is no doubt that the best of people after the Prophet (pbuh) were his progeny.
Does he even say that he left divine guided men after the prophet?

Not only are they divinely guided but they are witnesses upon the actions of everyone. Again this is in the Qur'an. The fact that authority over believers is with Allah, his Messenger and the one who gives zakat in ruku, although many tried, there was only one for whom this ayah was revealed.
Did he even say that he appointed leaders after the Prophet?

Where does he say that there cannot be leaders after the Prophet (pbuh)? The fact that human beings appointed leaders after the Prophet (pbuh) is evidence that leaders were necessary. Now either you can follow manmade leaders or leaders chosen by Allah. The choice is yours.

Surely we have shown you the "sabeel", it is up to you whether you are grateful or ungrateful.

The "sabeel" is not the Prophet (pbuh), rather it is someone else. Ponder, and you might find the answer.

Edited by Socrates
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What point?

Did Allah ever say in the Quran that he leaves us 12 men from the progeny of our Prophet that we are bound to follow them?

Does he even say that he leaves us the progeny of muhammad to follow?

Does he even say that he left divine guided men after the prophet?

Did he even say that he appointed leaders after the Prophet?

No he doesn't. All of this is fabricated. You believe in it because someone told you about it, not because you found it in Allah's words. You guide Allah's words with this concept in your mind instead of actually looking at the book of Allah and see if this thing exists.

Show us all the verses you think somehow "hint" to that, then we will look into the context of theses verse.

OK from what you are saying there is no evidence in the Quaran for a method of leadership after the Holy Prophet and we are not allowed to use Hadith to find guidance then according to what you are saying all the sects of Islam currently in existence are false.

Even the so called Quaranists are just a group of anarchic Sunnis similar but very differenet to the anarchic Malangs. In which case we are really no further forward

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What point?

Did Allah ever say in the Quran that he leaves us 12 men from the progeny of our Prophet that we are bound to follow them?

Does he even say that he leaves us the progeny of muhammad to follow?

Does he even say that he left divine guided men after the prophet?

Did he even say that he appointed leaders after the Prophet?

No he doesn't. All of this is fabricated. You believe in it because someone told you about it, not because you found it in Allah's words. You guide Allah's words with this concept in your mind instead of actually looking at the book of Allah and see if this thing exists.

Show us all the verses you think somehow "hint" to that, then we will look into the context of theses verse.

You start reading verse 7:25 to 7:35.

Verses are addressing people who existed at the time of reavalation.

Who are these ‘Rosolan’ mentioned in verse 7:35 ?

[7:35] O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you rosolan from amongst you, rehearsing My signs unto you,- those who are righteous and mend (their lives),- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.

Rosolan is plural of Arabic word ‘Rosol’

Edited by elite
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You start reading verse 7:25 to 7:35.

Verses are addressing people who existed at the time of reavalation.

Who are these ‘Rosolan’ mentioned in verse 7:35 ?

[7:35] O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you rosolan from amongst you, rehearsing My signs unto you,- those who are righteous and mend (their lives),- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.

Rosolan is plural of Arabic word ‘Rosol’

Messengers , i.e Prophets.

Next.

No they are not.

Neither Khidhr nor Isa have authority as prophets even though they are alive. So obviously there is a difference.

If you are claiming for Isa what we claim for Mahdi, it means you are out of the fold of Islam on two counts: firstly, you believe in the continuity of the prophethood of Isa, and thereby reject the prophethood of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) (for if Isa's prophethood is continued because of his life, then there's no need for any other prophet), and secondly because you've favoured Bani Israel over Aal Muhammad (pbuh), for in the former, there were good and bad, while in the latter, your prayer is incomplete without salawat upon them.

The successors (awsiya, not all of whom were prophets) of all previous prophets have been twelve, and the sunnah of Allah does not change, both of these facts are mentioned in the Qur'an. Why would it be any different for the best of Allah's messengers?

Even if you do not rely on the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) - which you have to rely upon as per the command in the Holy Qur'an - there are many ayat which prove the following of the best of people, and there is no doubt that the best of people after the Prophet (pbuh) were his progeny.

Not only are they divinely guided but they are witnesses upon the actions of everyone. Again this is in the Qur'an. The fact that authority over believers is with Allah, his Messenger and the one who gives zakat in ruku, although many tried, there was only one for whom this ayah was revealed.

Where does he say that there cannot be leaders after the Prophet (pbuh)? The fact that human beings appointed leaders after the Prophet (pbuh) is evidence that leaders were necessary. Now either you can follow manmade leaders or leaders chosen by Allah. The choice is yours.

Surely we have shown you the "sabeel", it is up to you whether you are grateful or ungrateful.

The "sabeel" is not the Prophet (pbuh), rather it is someone else. Ponder, and you might find the answer.

Long tafseer and suppositions, no verse.

Getting tired.

Edited by fallah
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What point?

Did Allah ever say in the Quran that he leaves us 12 men from the progeny of our Prophet that we are bound to follow them?

Does he even say that he leaves us the progeny of muhammad to follow?

Does he even say that he left divine guided men after the prophet?

Did he even say that he appointed leaders after the Prophet?

No he doesn't. All of this is fabricated. You believe in it because someone told you about it, not because you found it in Allah's words. You guide Allah's words with this concept in your mind instead of actually looking at the book of Allah and see if this thing exists.

Show us all the verses you think somehow "hint" to that, then we will look into the context of theses verse.

Stick to the topic at hand. You are purposely avoiding the actual issue I am trying to discuss, stop skipping ahead. We can only take it from one issue at a time.

I was discussing the verse of Ibrahim's (as) Imamate, your replies were worthless. They held no actual evidence nor feasible reasoning. I am asking you to go back to the point and make it clear to me and the others before attempting to refute anything else. Once you have established a true argument that is reasonable and can be backed up by sufficient evidence, then and only then it would be reasonable for me to answer anything else. The trickery at its best.

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The more this discussion goes on, the more ludicrous theses claims are.

Allah declared himself and didn't wait for anyone to find him. It follows that the proof of Allah would declare himself, not hide.

You do not find Allah in truth until you make an effort. It is one thing to submit, it is another thing to believe. You think submission is enough. The imams urged people to realise that there is a distinction between mere submission and true belief.

No, it isn't the fault of the reader if Allah talks off Imamat in a so obscure way. Your claims are only insulting the Book of Guidance of being esoteric, dark, secret, when truth should shine, and should be evident. The word Imam appears not so many times, and it has been used for disbelievers too. It also has been used for something else than "leader". You can't blame me for not believing your claims. If you passed primary school, you should know words have more than one meaning, and they depend on context. and when words are clear, you can't invent another meaning to it and go against the context. The projeny of Abraham is most likely Isaac and Ishamel. If one goes to a larger sense, it also includes the subsequent prophets, knowing that Allah said the prophets are of one family. No way could this mean something else. And yes their heirs are their kins, just like we all consider ourselves heirs of the Prophet. You,re telling me that I have a narrow view while you've been discussing theses words only in a narrow view.

The Quran does contain esoteric truths, but this not what I was talking about. Its just plain, in-your-face things that people merely read and then pass over.

Its like the Mubahila verse. I've seen Sunnis ask time and time again, if Ali (as) was so important then he'd be mentioned in the Quran. Well he is mentioned in the Quran is referred to a son in relation to the prophet

So if someone argues with you in this after what has come to you of the knowledge, say, "Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then pray and invoke the curse of Allah upon the liars."(3:61)

You say

And yes their heirs are their kins, just like we all consider ourselves heirs of the Prophet.

When the Quran clearly says

[Yusufali 3:33] Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-

[Yusufali 3:34] Offspring, one of the other: And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

You claim something which does not belong to you. The heirs are above you. Not equal to you.

Let me serve you some delicious copy-pasta

Men given divine responsibly are descendants of prophets

[Yusufali 3:33] Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-

[Yusufali 3:34] Offspring, one of the other: And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

These verses show the responsibility of Imams and tie imamate with sinlessness

[Yusufali 21:72] And We bestowed on him Isaac and, as an additional gift, (a grandson), Jacob, and We made righteous men of every one (of them).

[Yusufali 21:73] And We made them leaders, guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only).

[shakir 21:73] And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve

Musa (as) prophet asked Allah for an heir and helper from his family

[Yusufali 20:29] "And give me a Minister from my family,

[Yusufali 20:30] "Aaron, my brother;

[Yusufali 20:31] "Add to my strength through him,

[Yusufali 20:32] "And make him share my task:

[Yusufali 20:33] "That we may celebrate Thy praise without stint,

[Yusufali 20:34] "And remember Thee without stint:

[Yusufali 20:35] "For Thou art He that (ever) regardeth us."

[Yusufali 20:36] (Allah) said: "Granted is thy prayer, O Moses!"

Why does Musa(as) ask Allah to MAKE Aaron a deputy when his brother was always near him anyway?

The Quran also explains Harun's position further

[shakir 7:142] And We appointed with Musa a time of thirty nights and completed them with ten (more), so the appointed time of his Lord was complete forty nights, and Musa said to his brother Haroun: Take my place among my people, and act well and do not follow the way of the mischief-makers.

[Yusufali 25:35] (Before this,) We sent Moses The Book, and appointed his brother Aaron with him as minister;

Interestingly if you look up the Sahih Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 57,Hadith Number 56, it says that Muhammad (pbuh) said to Ali (as);

"Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Aaron was to Moses?"

Another verse which ties imamat to infallibility and ties the duty of imamat to the pious men among descendants of Ibrahim(as)

[Yusufali 2:124] And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

Here is mentioned the Imams among the Bani Israel, the Succesors of Musa(as)

[Pickthal 32:23] We verily gave Moses the Scripture; so be not ye in doubt of his receiving it; and We appointed it a guidance for the Children of Israel.

[Pickthal 32:24] And when they became steadfast and believed firmly in Our revelations, We appointed from among them leaders who guided by Our command

[shakir 32:24] And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

I have given Shakir's translation at times because he literally translates the Arabic word imam or it's plural Iemmah into imam, other translators try to translate imam to chief or leader. But shakirs overall style is confusing.

We can deduce from the verses that an imam is

1. A man with divine authority

2.He is nominated through Allah's orders by a previous holder of divine authority

3. He is not a Prophet in the sense he brings the faith of Allah to a disbelieving nation, instead he guides the nation of believers to live correctly & serve Allah as the successor of the prophets.

I'm not narrowing down anything, you're the ones who keep telling me the word Imam here refers to Imammat, while I'm saying it refers to something more general. Your sentence is as obscure as your concept. Using mysticism to cover reality is not a valid way to convince someone of an evident matter.

You think in an extremely rigid way. It not does refers to something in general even when he asks for his offspring to be given the rank of Imamate, a honor he receives after much trail. Im not using "Mystcism" to cover any reality, you problem is that you have a rigid view of revelation about communication from god. As if we exist on a godless plane and God reaches across some gulf to send messages to man. There isnt a physical gulf since Allah is immanent everywhere. But the gulf exists due to our limited understanding and limited awareness.

You seek relative truth, not maarifat.

Mariam herd an angel, and maybe even saw him.

And Maryam was not a prophet or one of the awliya?

I fail to see how a relationship with jibrel can define your mission.

Allah talked to Moses directly, wouldn't that mean he's more than a messenger?

Musa talked to Allah (as) directly only once, never again, but he is among the greatest of Prophets

You fail to see it because you think prophet-hood just randomly happens to some guy. One day hes just going about his business and next thing you know, bam revelation. Thats why you think you are a heir to Muhammad (pbuh) because of this kind of thinking.

Edited by JimJam
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