Interested In Shia Islam.

[Ibn al-Hassan 824]

I have a few questions to ask.

There are so many good people in the world who have no idea what islam is. So many of us who learn about it very late in life because of demographics, or the media's potrayal of islam, or what muslims are actually doing themselves(killing each other, blowing things up).

I know this is not indicative of all religions, but Islam does have this policy where if you do not agree with it, and write a book politely explaining it's inconsistencies and such, you have a death warrant against you?

I think it has more so to do with the way you approach the subject. Muslims don't have problems with a difference of opinion. In fact, throughout its history all most every topic you can think of has been discussed and debated internally. Early Muslim scholars debated such topics as the nature of God, free will / predestination, the role of the intellect in the derivation of doctrines and law, etc. If you have respect for the subject matter and see it in the same light as Muslims see it, then I don't see much of a problem with that. Of course, you can't speak on behalf of all people and I'm sure there are some not so tolerant Muslims. However, the majority will be accepting as long as you understand that the subject matter is sacred.

I mean this is the problem with sunnis and shiites. They accept bakr, umar, usman/uthman? . You take them to be villians. They then feel so offended by you slandering their 'idols' they kill you. You hear a man calling your prophet pbuh a child abuser (no offence) because he had a non-consensual marrige with a 6 year old, because in our society that is child abuse. A man politely gives his view, and suddenly he has a death warrant on him?

Why is it like this ? I am reading your Quran and it says "to you your way to me mine". Clearly you people don't follow your holy books.

Again, it has to do with the way you approach the topic. I do agree that most Muslims (and people in general) are not well informed. However, you have to remember that you're making a generalization, so that's not always the case. It may very well be the case (and often is) that the majority are not right. You have to look more at the beliefs and practices from the sources themselves, rather than accept or reject a religion based on how fallible people interpret it. Again, not in an arrogant way wherby you consider yourself the only one who understands the religion, but in a way that you make judgements on your own and assess the arguments on their own merit.

Really, i want to accept islam from being a diest, but i am unsure why God would reveal a religion in desert 1400 years ago, and people all across the world would neve hear of it, die without hearing it. Clearly God thought there was no clear guidance up to that point, the bible apprently was distorted. So, how on earth will God judge people who lived and never heard of Islam?

What kind of a test is it when no-one actually is told life is a test? I really am very puzzled by this.

Well, of course time and place has a lot to do with our beliefs and practices. For those that never heard of Islam nor practically had the means to even pursue it, they will be judged on that which they did know. I think the most important aspect which a person will be judged upon is their sincere pursuit of the Truth. Even an atheist will tell you that there is real value in knowing the Truth and that to reject it is blameworthy. So, no matter what time and place a person was determined to live, they will first be judged on this criteria of seeking the Truth. Even if they don't find it, they will not be blamed (as long as they sincerely pursued it). Second, there are certain basic moral truths which people will be judged upon. For instance, telling the truth or upholding justice or returning a trust. Even in the primative era, people could grasp these basic moral truths without need for revelation. They are self-evident. It doesn't matter which religion or culture we grow up around, we know that lying is evil (all things being equal). In the end, only God is fully aware our circumstances and influences in our life to fairly judge us. We have full faith in His judgement.

So, Islam is a structure and way of life that reminds us of our basic moral obligations. We can understand these moral concepts, rationally. However, the details and specifics are understood by revelation, the Qur'an and the sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) (and for Shi'ites, the Imams (as) of his progeny as well). The tradition reinforces our these rationally-derived obligations.

If God just sent a prophet to us now showing miracles, out-right ones in public television , we would all accept whatever he had to say. He would get a nobel prize and the world would convert in numbers.

I'm not so convinced that it would still work. However, certainly God could have made everyone believe. In that case though, there would be no free will to choose which actions to pursue and which not to. The real value of a human being is when they choose to do the moral thing, even though they are capable of pursing the immoral action (which often is more desireable). The test is for us to know the extent to which we will retain our conviction in Him in the face of such trial and tribulation.

There are good people out there you call 'dirty kaffirs bound to eternal hell'. We aren't. We want the truth as much as you do.

But our intellect has stopped us doing things like accepting a faulty bible - you guys agree. Worshipping idols - we don't worship idols.

As a diest, i buy into the cosmological argument. But i don't buy into organised religion unless i get blatant proof. So i have done years of research and have joined this website to discuss it.

Please feel free to answer any of my questions. Again, i would appreciate it if you tailor your answer to my questions. Posting me long links which do not really adress anything is more of a harmful rather than a beneficial thing to do.

I pray to whatever is responsible in creating this universe to make themselves known to me through my research,

You may or may not decide to read it, but here is a brief treatise on Islamic doctrines (albeit from a Shi'ite persective) that may be of benefit to you in your research. Al-Bab al-Hadi `Ashar.

(wasalam)

[Reason 5]

Fair answer al-hassan, best one i have seen, but definitely not a satisfiable answer(in my opinion).

Moses and Jesus brought ouright miracles. Why would God decide to do that for one group, and send another group on a game of treasurehunt?

I could have been born 100 years earlier and never heard of islam and never have known life is a test because the alternatives were riddled with inconsistencies.

How could i possibly be judged? I would never have prayed, fasted, payed zakat, done hajj. ect

My qaulm is, what kind of a test is life when a lot of us don't actually know which test paper to follow?

[Peace lover 40]

I have a few questions to ask.

There are so many good people in the world who have no idea what islam is. So many of us who learn about it very late in life because of demographics, or the media's potrayal of islam, or what muslims are actually doing themselves(killing each other, blowing things up).

I know this is not indicative of all religions, but Islam does have this policy where if you do not agree with it, and write a book politely explaining it's inconsistencies and such, you have a death warrant against you?

I mean this is the problem with sunnis and shiites. They accept bakr, umar, usman/uthman? . You take them to be villians. They then feel so offended by you slandering their 'idols' they kill you. You hear a man calling your prophet pbuh a child abuser (no offence) because he had a non-consensual marrige with a 6 year old, because in our society that is child abuse. A man politely gives his view, and suddenly he has a death warrant on him?

Why is it like this ? I am reading your Quran and it says "to you your way to me mine". Clearly you people don't follow your holy books.

You answered it yourself. People who really practice Islam does not have any will to impose their views on others. These conflicts are for those people who don't take Islam seriously.

Really, i want to accept islam from being a diest, but i am unsure why God would reveal a religion in desert 1400 years ago, and people all across the world would neve hear of it, die without hearing it. Clearly God thought there was no clear guidance up to that point, the bible apprently was distorted. So, how on earth will God judge people who lived and never heard of Islam?

What kind of a test is it when no-one actually is told life is a test? I really am very puzzled by this.

If God just sent a prophet to us now showing miracles, out-right ones in public television , we would all accept whatever he had to say. He would get a nobel prize and the world would convert in numbers.

Do you think people who have heard it actually know it. I mean there are Muslims who hear it all the time and never ever realise though out their life. On other side is you who happens to be a non Muslim attracted to it.

Concept of God is in with in us and in the universe. If you want to see him you can see even as a deist, otherwise you can never see him even as a Muslim.

Humbleness and logic is the only quality required to start your journey. Humbleness means rely less on worldly things and do good to others.

God does not do anything straight forward. We see in nature, nothing is so simple to comprehend. Every thing in this world from a single atom to mountains all are working to provide humans something. Nothing is useless. But he has not made Iron just sitting there on mountains so we can pick up and than use it for our benefits. Nothing in nature is so straight forward. Every thing is hidden.

These are ways of Allah.

Hope my little knowledge would be of some help.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Peace lover

[Abu Hadi 8,782]

Really, i want to accept islam from being a diest, but i am unsure why God would reveal a religion in desert 1400 years ago, and people all across the world would neve hear of it, die without hearing it. Clearly God thought there was no clear guidance up to that point, the bible apprently was distorted. So, how on earth will God judge people who lived and never heard of Islam?

What kind of a test is it when no-one actually is told life is a test? I really am very puzzled by this.

I think you are confusing Islam with Christianity on this point. I am supposing you are from a Christian background but I could be wrong.

We believe that everyone is judged by God based on the knowledge they are given.

Some people are given more knowledge and some less. A boy growing up in the middle of the Amazon rain forest with no contact with civilization will not be judged the same as as someone with a phD from Oxford.

Every human being is born with something that is called 'fitra' in the Quran. This is the basic human nature that we can use to distinguish right from wrong. Everyone has this. For example, I doubt you will find anyone on earth who will say murder, rape, lying, stealing are good things. Also, I doubt you will find anyone that will say that taking care of your children, helping old people, or giving to charity are bad things. If someone follows their fitra, then they will be led by God to higher levels of humanity and closeness to God. If they act against their fitra, they will descend to lower levels of humanity and will become more distant from God. Islam is the pinnacle and culmination of thousands of years of revelation by God and religious practice. It is not the only way to Heaven, becoming a good person, etc, but it is the shortest path to this.

If God just sent a prophet to us now showing miracles, out-right ones in public television , we would all accept whatever he had to say. He would get a nobel prize and the world would convert in numbers.

I disagree with you that this would happen. The Quran addresses this issue directly. It says that those people who are 'hell bent' on denying the truth would call this miracle something else like 'magic' and would attribute it to natural causes. During the time of the Prophet, people called him a 'magician', a poet, etc and these people were living with the Prophet in the same town and they witnessed many miracles just as those living during the time of Prophet Jesus (p.b.u.h) did.

Also, you overlook miracles that happen every day that you witness like the rising of the sun, the rising and falling of the tides, the vast universe that we are just a tiny speck within, the changing of the seasons, etc. What being besides an Almighty Creator could be the cause of all these disparate phenomenon acting in concert and in complete regularity. Think about that before you ask for other miracles.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Abu Hadi

[Reason 5]

I think you are confusing Islam with Christianity on this point. I am supposing you are from a Christian background but I could be wrong.

We believe that everyone is judged by God based on the knowledge they are given.

Some people are given more knowledge and some less. A boy growing up in the middle of the Amazon rain forest with no contact with civilization will not be judged the same as as someone with a phD from Oxford.

Every human being is born with something that is called 'fitra' in the Quran. This is the basic human nature that we can use to distinguish right from wrong. Everyone has this. For example, I doubt you will find anyone on earth who will say murder, rape, lying, stealing are good things. Also, I doubt you will find anyone that will say that taking care of your children, helping old people, or giving to charity are bad things. If someone follows their fitra, then they will be led by God to higher levels of humanity and closeness to God. If they act against their fitra, they will descend to lower levels of humanity and will become more distant from God. Islam is the pinnacle and culmination of thousands of years of revelation by God and religious practice. It is not the only way to Heaven, becoming a good person, etc, but it is the shortest path to this.

I disagree with you that this would happen. The Quran addresses this issue directly. It says that those people who are 'hell bent' on denying the truth would call this miracle something else like 'magic' and would attribute it to natural causes. During the time of the Prophet, people called him a 'magician', a poet, etc and these people were living with the Prophet in the same town and they witnessed many miracles just as those living during the time of Prophet Jesus (p.b.u.h) did.

Also, you overlook miracles that happen every day that you witness like the rising of the sun, the rising and falling of the tides, the vast universe that we are just a tiny speck within, the changing of the seasons, etc. What being besides an Almighty Creator could be the cause of all these disparate phenomenon acting in concert and in complete regularity. Think about that before you ask for other miracles.

Another good answer. No, i am a diest. I have good christian and islamic knowledge. I have skipped judaism though, but know their beliefs. I disregard hinduism and sikhism.

The issue is, the majort of scientists including many muslims believe in the theory of evolution - this solves life.

Lawrence Krauss, from a universe from nothing, clearly shows how the planets and the sun are just accidents and would form naturally the way they were.

This doesn't disprove God, it only nullifies his use. I am a diest though, so i believe in a God of some sort.

You're wrong to say if someone brought an out right miracle that people would call him a magician. Those were back-ward times. These are enlightened ones.

I garuentee you if someone in public broke the laws of physics, flew, brought the dead from life, that people would accept.

What's the point in not having a clear-cut answer?

Even the magicians of moses knew he was not doing magic. Pharoh knew as well.

So what if everyone doesn't convert? At least we will all know what is true, rather than going on this treasure hunt.

The issue is, islam says life is a test. You guys do all these rituals. What if i do harram things and never heard of islam ? I will get away scott free? Then what's the point in me existing if life isn't a test ?

Why have an exam and only allow certain people to sit it. I could have sinned and done wrong had i converted ect?

It just doesn't add up why God would choose to enlighten arabs in a desert ,but neglect people all across the world who would never have heard of islam until the next few hundred years. Even then, they werent arabs so could not even verify if the Quran was from God.

[Abu Hadi 8,782]

Another good answer. No, i am a diest. I have good christian and islamic knowledge. I have skipped judaism though, but know their beliefs. I disregard hinduism and sikhism.

The issue is, the majort of scientists including many muslims believe in the theory of evolution - this solves life.

How does it solve life ?

If they have 'solved life' then why can't they bring anything, even an ant back to life after it has died.

Why can't they stop, at least themselves, from dying ?

How come they can't give life to an inanimate object ?

If they have 'solved life' it should be easy for them to do.

Evolution simply says that organisms can, gradually over time, add, subtract, or modify existing characteristics which they already posses.

This doesn't explain how they came to exist in the first place or the properties or characteristics of 'life' itself. Evolution only talks about traits.

Lawrence Krauss, from a universe from nothing, clearly shows how the planets and the sun are just accidents and would form naturally the way they were.

This doesn't disprove God, it only nullifies his use. I am a diest though, so i believe in a God of some sort.

You're wrong to say if someone brought an out right miracle that people would call him a magician. Those were back-ward times. These are enlightened ones.

I garuentee you if someone in public broke the laws of physics, flew, brought the dead from life, that people would accept.

If you want to see a miracle, why don't you try reading the Quran in the original Arabic.

I realize this would require some effort on your part to learn Arabic, but if you really want to see

a miracle, it is right there available for anyone to pick up.

What's the point in not having a clear-cut answer?

Even the magicians of moses knew he was not doing magic. Pharoh knew as well.

So what if everyone doesn't convert? At least we will all know what is true, rather than going on this treasure hunt.

All the answers are there if you are willing to put forth the effort, with a sincere intention to find them.

You know the point about the magicians of Pharoh and Pharoh because you read that in the Quran.

So you accept some facts from the Quran then. That's a start.

The issue is, islam says life is a test. You guys do all these rituals. What if i do harram things and never heard of islam ? I will get away scott free? Then what's the point in me existing if life isn't a test ?

You will only get off 'scot free' if you don't know what you are doing is wrong (forget about the word 'haram for now).

If you know what you are doing is wrong, then it makes sense that a just Creator would not let you get off scot free if you

know something is wrong. This would be unjust to those people who know it is wrong and don't do it.

The rituals are not an end in themselves. The rituals are there for three purposes

First, to be a practical demonstration of our obedience or submission to Our Creator.

Second, to be a practical demostration of our Thankfulness to our Creator for giving us life, health, and all the things we posses.

Third, to remind us of our position vis a via our Creator.

Why have an exam and only allow certain people to sit it. I could have sinned and done wrong had i converted ect?

Anyone can sit in. Not everyone is given the same exam.

The exam you get is based on what you have been given by God in terms of knowledge, reasoning ability, etc.

It just doesn't add up why God would choose to enlighten arabs in a desert ,but neglect people all across the world who would never have heard of islam until the next few hundred years. Even then, they werent arabs so could not even verify if the Quran was from God.

Why not Arabs in the desert. It had to be given to some group of people somewhere. If it had been given to people in China or Siberia or the Philippines would you have liked that better ?

God didn't neglect anyone. As I said before, everyone has the same fitra and the basic test is based on that. People are also given additional tests.

God send Prophets and Messengers to every society that ever existed. These messages were the same in their essence. Islam came with a few more

rituals, but the rituals have a purpose, explained above.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Abu Hadi

[guest 34193 39]

Don't waste your time folks, it's just Logical Islam pretending to be a potential convert.

[Abu Hadi 8,782]

I had a few minutes on my lunch break after Salat. Besides, someone else might benefit from the thread.

[CLynn 532]

Every human being is born with something that is called 'fitra' in the Quran. This is the basic human nature that we can use to distinguish right from wrong. Everyone has this. For example, I doubt you will find anyone on earth who will say murder, rape, lying, stealing are good things. Also, I doubt you will find anyone that will say that taking care of your children, helping old people, or giving to charity are bad things. If someone follows their fitra, then they will be led by God to higher levels of humanity and closeness to God. If they act against their fitra, they will descend to lower levels of humanity and will become more distant from God. Islam is the pinnacle and culmination of thousands of years of revelation by God and religious practice. It is not the only way to Heaven, becoming a good person, etc, but it is the shortest path to this.

If this is true then why the insistence on being muslim? If we all have this fitra, which I believe we do, and it is only those without conscience that are un-redeemable.

[Rational Thinking 322]

If this is true then why the insistence on being muslim? If we all have this fitra, which I believe we do, and it is only those without conscience that are un-redeemable.

Good point. Any views on why God almighty would allow so many to not have a clear-cut religion, and thus judge them on what they would do, or their common sense of humanity, yet reveal and demand that religion ought to be followed?

Is it just the case of humanity being given the responsibility to shape a good world to live in, and that religion is the means by which this occurs, facilitated by God without God intervening to the extent he practically shapes it himself?

[Abu Hadi 8,782]

If this is true then why the insistence on being muslim? If we all have this fitra, which I believe we do, and it is only those without conscience that are un-redeemable.

I think you are misunderstanding what the fitra is. We all have a basic level of fitra, but this is not an end in itself. The purpose of this fitra is to lead us to God. There is a point where this fitra alone is not sufficient to lead us closer to God. That is because, as human beings, we have a highly developed sense of rational thinking, reasoning skills, and ability to understand and apply conceptual thinking. This is called in Arabic 'aql' and it is often mentioned in the Quran. A very often repeated phrase in the Quran is '....in this are sign for those who utilze their aql'. So our fitra can lead us to a certain point, but beyond that we

need to use both our fitra and our aql.

For example, there are many Christians who are good people and follow their fitra. Once a Christian, or someone else, gets to a certain point where they are following their fitra and not violating it, then God will give them the gift of being able to utilize their aql in order to bring that person closer to Him(s.w.a). If they accept that gift then they will move forward using both their fitra and aql, but if they reject the aql then they will move down to a lower spirtual state. This is the result of them rejecting the gift of aql which God has given them. Human being are not in a fixed spritual state but rather a dynamic one that is constantly moving, either forward or backward on their journey.

So if a person rejects their fitra, they will become lower than the animals, because animals do not reject their fitra. If they use their fitra and their aql, they have a potential to become higher than the angels, since angels obey God always but they don't have a choice whether to obey or disobey. Human beings have free will and if they obey God voluntarily, using the gifts that He(s.w.a) has given them (the fitra and the aql) then they have reached their full potential as a creation of God.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Abu Hadi

[CLynn 532]

I think you are misunderstanding what the fitra is. We all have a basic level of fitra, but this is not an end in itself. The purpose of this fitra is to lead us to God. There is a point where this fitra alone is not sufficient to lead us closer to God. That is because, as human beings, we have a highly developed sense of rational thinking, reasoning skills, and ability to understand and apply conceptual thinking. This is called in Arabic 'aql' and it is often mentioned in the Quran. A very often repeated phrase in the Quran is '....in this are sign for those who utilze their aql'. So our fitra can lead us to a certain point, but beyond that we

need to use both our fitra and our aql.

For example, there are many Christians who are good people and follow their fitra. Once a Christian, or someone else, gets to a certain point where they are following their fitra and not violating it, then God will give them the gift of being able to utilize their aql in order to bring that person closer to Him(s.w.a). If they accept that gift then they will move forward using both their fitra and aql, but if they reject the aql then they will move down to a lower spirtual state. This is the result of them rejecting the gift of aql which God has given them. Human being are not in a fixed spritual state but rather a dynamic one that is constantly moving, either forward or backward on their journey.

So if a person rejects their fitra, they will become lower than the animals, because animals do not reject their fitra. If they use their fitra and their aql, they have a potential to become higher than the angels, since angels obey God always but they don't have a choice whether to obey or disobey. Human beings have free will and if they obey God voluntarily, using the gifts that He(s.w.a) has given them (the fitra and the aql) then they have reached their full potential as a creation of God.

Greetings Abu Hadi,

I agree with what you shared. It supports what I have said... one can embrace their fitra and their iql without having to be muslim.

Salaam.

[Rational Thinking 322]

Greetings Abu Hadi,

I agree with what you shared. It supports what I have said... one can embrace their fitra and their iql without having to be muslim.

Salaam.

We will be judged on what we knew, our ability to find out the truth and our sincerity. If there is enough information and evidence for us to sincerely accept Islam, we must or vice versa.

[Imān and 'Adl 5]

Salamu'alaykum,

I'm a Sufi living in Arizona and I'm interested in becoming Shi'i, but I have many questions I need answered before I can commit to the change.

(1) I'm married to a Jewish woman and she is very happy in her faith and has no intention of becoming Muslim. Our interfaith marriage isn't a problem for us, nor is it a problem for any of the Sunnis I've known, however I've heard it would be a problem to the Shi'i. Thoughts?

(2) I'm an American and although I don't always agree with everything my country does, I am still proud to be American. I worry, given that many Middle Eastern Shia are very anti-American, that this would be problematic. Again, I see no problem between being Shi'i and a patriotic American, but would others?

(3) I have been very moved by Nahjul Balagha and by the underdog struggle of Shi'i history. I would like to have Shia spirituality play a greater role in my life but I am concerned by the idea that a Shia has to defer to a cleric's opinion on all matters. Is their room for lay persons to disagree with the leadership without being accused of being impious?

(4) I understand that some extremely zealous Shia actually cut themselves, and even their children, in remembrance of Hussein's martyrdom at Karbala. I find this practice fanatical and deeply troubling. Are such extreme practices condemned by most Shi'i?

[Abu Tufayl 2,605]

بسم الله الرحمن الحريم

 

 

 

Salamu'alaykum, I'm a Sufi living in Arizona and I'm interested in becoming Shi'i, but I have many questions I need answered before I can commit to the change. (1) I'm married to a Jewish woman and she is very happy in her faith and has no intention of becoming Muslim. Our interfaith marriage isn't a problem for us, nor is it a problem for any of the Sunnis I've known, however I've heard it would be a problem to the Shi'i. Thoughts?

 

عليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

 

That should not be an issue, God willing. Although some of the jurist object to the marriage of a Muslim man to non-Muslim women, it is only a precautionary effort and other jurist have deemed it permissible and they have no issue with it. So one could refer to those jurists on this issue.

 

 

(2) I'm an American and although I don't always agree with everything my country does, I am still proud to be American. I worry, given that many Middle Eastern Shia are very anti-American, that this would be problematic. Again, I see no problem between being Shi'i and a patriotic American, but would others?

 

Also not an issue. It's not about being "anti-American." Rather, many Shi`a political disagree with the foreign policy of the United States government. In fact, what we need is more home grown, natural Tashayyu` (Shi`ism) in the West.

 

 

(3) I have been very moved by Nahjul Balagha and by the underdog struggle of Shi'i history. I would like to have Shia spirituality play a greater role in my life but I am concerned by the idea that a Shia has to defer to a cleric's opinion on all matters. Is their room for lay persons to disagree with the leadership without being accused of being impious?

 

Well, Islam was not a institution of self-interpretation. So for individuals of little to no expertise to rebel against pious people of knowledge, then everything become based on people's whims and cultures will define what is religious rulings. So, the deference to the clerical structure is to make sure the laymen are attaining religious rulings from qualified scholars without following their whims or hawaa'. But deference to the jurists isn't in all issues of religion, but specifically in the matters of practical law's rules, but not their application. So, for example, the jurist will tell you ingesting intoxicants is forbidden, but he isn't going to tell you this or that substance is an intoxicant. It is your duty to apply the law here it is appropriate and judge whether the religious edict fits or not.

 

The foundation upon Islamic spirituality is following the law as best as possible. However, passed the laws, the other aspects of spirituality would not be the domain of jurist and one should probably refer to scholars who are more specialized in metaphysics, spirituality, theology, etc.

 

 

(4) I understand that some extremely zealous Shia actually cut themselves, and even their children, in remembrance of Hussein's martyrdom at Karbala. I find this practice fanatical and deeply troubling. Are such extreme practices condemned by most Shi'i?

 

The practice you are referring to is tatbir and is a practice some Shi`a in certain cultures express their loyalty and grief for the Ahl al-Bayt عليهم السلام. It is not part and parcel of the religion, but a cultural expression by some. Some scholars have allowed this practice, while others have condemned it; both groups based on juristic principles but varying approaches. This type of issue should not be in any way a barrier to anyone considering Tashayyu` - it was not for me.

 

في أمان الله

Edited August 3, 2015 by Abu Tufayl

[realizm 2,578]

Aleikum as Salam

1/ Ahlul Kitab are allowed in shii Islam just as in sunni Islam. You may find some opinions that go against it but I find no real basis for that, but you will find such opinions in all sects...

2/ You have the word justice in your username so I guess you know what's just and what's unjust. You should never be unpatriotic but you should not condone or neglect oppression on the basis of your nationality. Shia Islam and its history are filled with references to oppression, and I guess given the current state of world affairs, it has to be opposed to the western ideologies. Take this from a western citizen. On the other side I consider that muslims should be examples of good manners and should work for their country harer than anyone esle.

3/The cleric's opinion is deemed obligatory only for jurisprudential matters. Your relationship with Allah is a personnal affair.

4/ I would say yes, but you wil find many people here who will defend it, becaus they are, as you said, very zealous about that practice.

[Chaotic Muslem 5,778]

Salam and welcome

 

I am not going to provide answers or give comments on all of your questions because the situation is a huge life turn from your part but I know our imams advised us to take the religion step by step and walk slowly through our journey with light guiding us.

 

2- Nothing wrong in feeling protective and proud of belonging to specific place. The whole earth is Allah's. But as all Shia all over the world, even those in holy cities, supporting oppressive regimes or persons is not fine. Most Shia do not hate Americans for being americans, but they have issues with the politics and such .

 

4- Tatbir or Zanjir Zani is a practice that is controversial. Many supporters as well as many rejectors of it. It is not part of religion.

 

3- There are a number of issues in your question and i'll try to dissect it and make it clear to you where the controversy lies.

 

a- as a human, your beliefs are your personal freedom.

b- as a muslim, your practices are bound to proof from Quran and Sunnah. They are not optional nor open for change.

Thus a cleric can be either :

c- speaking their own mind, you are free to dis agree with them

d- speaking out of knowing , thus working only as speaking book or professor or expert in a field:

1d- disagreeing with a scholar that provided you with a proof is not good practice from spiritual point of view according to Shia

2d- going against the teaching that a scholar transmitted to you with proofs is a violation of islamic aql.

 

 

So it is a yes and no. You can always ask for proofs, for clarification and you can always stop someone and say " I am not sure yet, i need to study more" But it is not acceptable to disagree with a scholar because he is a scholar.

 

Why we defer to a scholar in most of our "practical issues"? Because they are the experts. We should freely choose who we will defer back to, instead of getting answers from one institution or from many directions.

 

Taqlid system is certainly not something that modern day muslims can accept easily, i had my own concerns about it back in days. It sounded wrong to be lead by one person and to follow blindly. 

But if you think of it, most of us are moved and motivated and affected by those who are around us. We think that we make most of our decisions freely but it isn't true. 

In case of religion. We read books and listen to this man and that man then we go around thinking " Oh, great i am believing in this because of this reason" But the truth is that we are believing in this thing because -someone- told us it has valid reason.

 

This person can be good person like the prophet or imam ali like in your case. It could be a good person with poor knowledge like pulpit scholar or nice muslim on internet or your friend or your father. It can be a bad person who looks good and speaks good but his subconscious hints will eventually lead to the wrong path.

 

since in our days we cannot reach the pure persons like ahlulbyt, the closest thing to them is a scholar who is with good character. Many of these scholars are too old to be fishy, they had been known all their lives by those around them and those far from them. They listened to their lectures and read their books and gave them the harshest criticism.

 

If a person after all this was given a pass as knowing and with good character, then he is worthy to be trusted to give us an informed comment on religious affairs that shall not be affected by those around him. This informed comment is better than the comments we give to ourselves or given to us by those around us because the bias in it is less likely.

[guest050817 4,831]

(4) I understand that some extremely zealous Shia actually cut themselves, and even their children, in remembrance of Hussein's martyrdom at Karbala. I find this practice fanatical and deeply troubling. Are such extreme practices condemned by most Shi'i?

 

Walaykumsalam

 

Salamunalaykum,

 

While some scholars allow it, and others are neutral, there are a number of well known ones vehemently against it. I am absolutely against it. I want to give you a balanced response, weigh up both sides, but i believe in issues like this, where both sides have been debated to death, the public need to know there is a strong nucleus of prominent shia's against it, vehemently, well known and well respected among them - not to appeal to authority.

 

I take a pause from continuing on to plead sincerely to brothers who perform or support this to think - perhaps there are better ways to commemorate imam hussain a.s that do not damage his mission, perhaps , as much love and intensity we have in our hearts, we should just take a step back and channel that in a different way. This is not to prove Mr Tawheed313 right, or to win an internet debate, this is bigger than me, and bigger than you, this is the image , the spread, and the message of the holy prophet as preserved by his ahlulbayt at stake.

 

I reject tatbir on : absolute yaqeen and full certainty to the level i would stand witness on the day of qiyamah that is defames and ruins the image of our school of thought and disgusts a reasonable number of people. In addition, being from a medical field, i can find many things potentially dangerous medically, from lesser known points such as certain veins on the scalp draining into the sinuses which can cause infections in the brain itself, to blood borne diseases etc. I can think of psychological ones , a number (is this a healthy way we want to teach our children to cope with grief?) as only one example, and many social poblems. It also has little religious backing to it, and from a pure common sense ground is excess, goes against the very nature of a decent human being who harbours the qualities to live in a civil and social environment.

 

1. Ayatullah Khomeini r.a , whom you may know, forbade it.

2. The current supreme leader of Iran, Ayatullah Khamanei is absolutely against it.

3. One of the greatest contemporary shia thinkers of the modern era, ayatullah Mutahari r.a was against it, and i regard him as one of the most intelligent shia's of the 20th century.

4. Ayatullah Fadllulah r.a was also against it

 

in addition to many, others, just wanted to save time and give you a few.

 

Not to appeal to authority, but the act is a clear instance of deviation, in the words of ayatullah mutahari r.a and in my view. There is absolutely no doubt it is a weapon used to defame the school of ahlulbayt a.s. The very act of the practise in my opinion goes against so many principles that make us civil, intelligent, and social creatures.

 

A few videos, of shias or made by shias about this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ayatullah Mutahhari

“Blood matam in its present form does not have a rational or religious basis. It is a clear instance of deviation. At least, in the present day it causes Shi’ism to be questioned. Activities that do not have any relation to the goals of Imam Husayn Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã are razors, blades and locks. Striking the head with a blade is the same. This is a mistake. Some people take blades and strike their heads making blood flow – for what? This action is not mourning.”

Howzah va Ruhaniyat, v.3

[Ibn Al-Ja'abi 1,504]

Walaykumsalam

 

Salamunalaykum,

 

....

Can you please give it a rest because there's clearly more than one opinion among the Shia jurists. Though you said that you then went on to focus on proving it Haram. This isn't a thread dedicated to debating the ibahat or tahrim of tatbir. Stop trying to focus on making it, this routine is getting old.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Ibn Al-Ja'abi

[guest050817 4,831]

Can you please give it a rest because there's clearly more than one opinion among the Shia jurists. Though you said that you then went on to focus on proving it Haram. This isn't a thread dedicated to debating the ibahat or tahrim of tatbir. Stop trying to focus on making it, this routine is getting old.

 

Salamunalaykum,

 

While i concede, as i did in the very first line of my post say, there are differing opinions, some allow it, some are neutral with conditions, i wanted to give the OP my view and the scholars who profess that view.

 

I believe just as you have a right to defend tatbir (or vice versa), i also have a right to educate the OP that there is a strong nucleas against this act.

 

Given the yaqeen i have that it certainly damages our madhab, i feel duty bound to, when asked by an individual, give forth the reasons for why i believe what i believe.

 

In this paticular case,  my answer was relevant to the question asked. If i were posting an anti-tatbir thread every week, i would understand. But i do feel it is important for my to clarify i am within my rights to simply express my perspective and view when asked a relevant question.

 

You may argue opposite - i don't know- and while i may vehemently disagree with you in that instance, i won't stop you from airing your view.

 

I leave the rest to Allah swt to judge. This is bigger than a routine , or winning an internet debate. It's bigger than you or i or anyone else.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Tawheed313

[Al-Hassan 2,665]

^But no poster on this thread said anything in advocating Tatbir or staunchly argued in defence of it in the same manner you wrote your post in opposing it. The most that was said is that two conflicting views are held on this issue, where both conflicting opinions are held by respected jurists. Hence, it's best to leave it at that on this thread and allow the OP himself to independently research on the issue using other external sources that address it in details and the pros and cons for it, ect - where by then he can make a decision on it. However, this thread specifically is for addressing general issues that the OP is concerned with and the answers given to them(especially if there are differences of opinion on them between our respected jurists) should most appropriately and efficiently be general, broad and on the surface level - where their details would later be examined by the OP elsewhere or with new threads each addressing a specific topic. Hence, it shouldn't divert into the details on the controversy over Tatbir like with the many of the failed threads on this forum, so please brother Tawheed, let's not make it into that.

[:Sami II 1,914]

salam 

welcome to SC, here's my thoughts from an old man about your concerns;

1. shia-islam is a deen and not just a faith, it's not just a religion or a spiritual path or quest. It is the whole package and a complete way of life based on truth justice and peace. It is lead by a man who is 1200 years old and is hidden, he is know as :Al-Hujjat atf, and he is the highest ranking spiritual guide, Imam and master. We shias pledge allegiance to him and prepare for his return which will be soon inshallah. No other religion, faith or path has this, and the alternative is the current default system based on corporatism, falsehood, riba and injustice, the current system allows you to practise a religion as long as you keep within their rules. When you become a shia and plugged into to our system, you must also bring in those you love and care for as the quran states to save yourself and your family. Otherwise the two opposing systems practised in the one home tears apart everyone in it.

 

2. Are you a native American, which is great and you should be proud of your great heritage. But if you are referring to the USA, it is a private company, and you are it's employee. there's nothing wrong with being proud of your company, but if it's involved in haram activities that are destroying humanity then you should desist.

 

3. that is my second favourite book, it changed me totally. Like i said before shia-islam is a complete package movement and we have knowledgeable people from amongst us who are plugged into the :Imam atf more then others to advise us on matters of living. There is good support for matters of general concern and everyday normal living, but if you want to go beyond what most are doing and reach higher levels closer to the 313 of the beloved :Imam atf., there is hidden knowledge that you have to seek.

 

4. other brothers have answered this well.

 

My duas are with you on the right choice.

 

ws

[shiamehdi14 163]

Please do not be thrown off by the opposing views on controversial issues. At the end of the day we all unite under the banner of the Ahlul bayt.

May Allah guide you in your upcoming findings. Brother.

Edited August 4, 2015 by shiamehdi14

[Ibn Al-Ja'abi 1,504]

Salamunalaykum,

 

...........

As a note I won't be responding anymore because this thread was dedicated to the questions asked by OP and Br. Abu Tufayl answered those questions, neither you or I has contributed to what the thread was asking. In addition to that Br. Najashi (AKA Al-Hassan) has answered you.

 

I want you to note that while I have my belief of being pro-Tatbir I haven't even hinted at that until now because I understand that this isn't an appropriate thread to do that. And whether you post an anti-Tatbir thread each week or not is not the issue, you have been noted by a lot of members of having the issue of constantly posting about this issue whatever opportunity you get (and time to time creating your own opportunity).

 

You, my friend, need to understand the importance of discussing an issue at the appropriate place and the appropriate time, unfortunately however much you seemed to have learned on your time on this site, you haven't learned this important lesson.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Ibn Al-Ja'abi

[Imān and 'Adl 5]

Thank you to all of you for your responses. I am a bit saddened that some turned my questions into an opportunity to argue. In my initial post I expressed my discomfort with the practice of tatbir, to which I received responses that comforted me that I need not agree with such practices to be shia and that, indeed, I would not me alone in my disapproval. It does not particularly make sense to me that anyone would find it necessary to start refuting such comfort by getting defensive. Are you trying to push people away? Also, I must respectfully disagree with the gentleman who suggested that being an interfaith faimily will tear its members apart. I have Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, and Buddhist family members and religion is not a problem in my family. We love and support one another and respect each other's traditions, without forcing our beliefs and practices on one another. Trying to convert your relatives is what tears families apart. "There is no compulsion in religion." (Qur'an 2:256) As for da'wa, is not the best da'wa the example of a pious and upright life amongst your fellow man? "Do you know what is better than charity, fasting, and prayer? It is keeping peace and good relations between peaople, as quarrels and bad feelings destroy mankind." (Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad, saw)

[Qa'im 10,986]

It does not particularly make sense to me that anyone would find it necessary to start refuting such comfort by getting defensive. Are you trying to push people away?

 

Thank you.

[tendersoul 301]

Salam,

Let me put it this way . Islam is a religion of mind and intellect not ignorance and bias.

Anything which is not wise is not Islamic .

-------------

Al- Kafi :

Abu ‘Abdallah al-‘Asimiy has narrated from Ali ibn al-Hassan from Ali ibn Asbat from al-Hassan ibn al- Juham from abu al-Hassan al-Rida (a.s) who has said the following.

"Our people mentioned intelligence and spoke about it in the presence of the Imam al-Rida (a.s), and he said, ‘Of the religious , those who have no intelligence deserves no credit.’

I then asked, "May Allah take my soul in your service, of such people we know a group of shias who are considered alright in our opinion but they do not have such intelligence."

The Imam then said, ‘They are not of the people whom Allah has addressed , because when He created intelligence and said to it, ‘Come forward’. It came forward. He then said, "Go back." It went back.

Then Allah said, "I swear by My honor and glory that I have not created anything better and more beloved to Me than you ( intellect).

I will accept and grant blessings (rewards) thru you ( intellect )only. "

------------------

I would like to share with you the intellect of Islam.

I am sure you will enjoy these brief audio files about the wisdom of Islam .

https://www.dropbox.com/s/l8ly08gw0dmsve9/wisdom%20behind%20azan-salat.mp3?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2d6z8oi19avspue/etiquette%20of%20praying.mp3?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4h56anismengetm/wisdom-of-wudhu.mp3?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7n3kpbyjznibsns/zikr.mp3?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f18n7nhu40nyppo/forqan%28understanding%20quran%29.mp3?dl=0

The below file , maybe not directly related to your tatbir question, but if you listen properly you will get your answer, Insha Allah.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jn5h91xk0vrn11q/mind%20level%20differences%20in%20prophets.mp3?dl=0

Enjoy !

Wasalam

Edited August 18, 2015 by tendersoul