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Abbas.

Are There Any Unacceptable Actions....

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(bismillah)

(salam)

MDM and Orion are discussing 1988 time of turmoil, prior to the death of Imam Khomeini RA. My reply was to Amir-Husayn who was talking about torture now, during the present day time period:

Sorry to confuse you. Islam does not allow torture and beatings. I don't believe that the IRI has a policy to do non-Islamic acts. If anyone commits such an act today, he will be put on trial and punished. There was a prison that was closed during the last year due to a few people who mistreated prisoners.

(salam)

I did not quore MDM, or Marbles but Brother MacIsaac,, who was speaking about the statement of one his teachers in QUm, who was a judge, that there is some form of disagreement regarding whether it is currently permissible to beat/torture suspects/prisoners. I was not confused in the least by your post. I was pointing out that your post, although correct in how things should be, does not necessarily reflect how things actually are in fact.

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ÓóáóÇãðÇ Peace.

(wasalam)

why dont you answer? its not a difficult or controvertial question. i have entertained each and every single question you have thrown at me, why cant you answer this?

do you believe that ayatollah montazeri was tricked by communists? its rather central to your case im afraid.

(bismillah)

A fresh new member "SayedAliReza", writing his first post ever, lands in this thread. Says things in such a way that provide opportunity to people like Marbles to attack scholars. All this happening at a time, when MDM is unable to provide credible witnesses to his accusations.

Looks suspicious to me!

:unsure:

you mean like the witnesses you have presented to prove that ayatollah montazeri was tricked by communists? yep. "i heard there are booklets in iran" is a MUCH more credible witness than anything i presented.

because you have hinged your entire defense on the unreliability of ayatollah montazeri, you think i will let you squirm away?

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(salam)

I did not quore MDM, or Marbles but Brother MacIsaac,, who was speaking about the statement of one his teachers in QUm, who was a judge, that there is some form of disagreement regarding whether it is currently permissible to beat/torture suspects/prisoners. I was not confused in the least by your post. I was pointing out that your post, although correct in how things should be, does not necessarily reflect how things actually are in fact.

(bismillah)

(salam)

I have no idea what year Bro Macisaac was in IRI. As I said, I was not speaking about the past, especially the time of 1988 which is the subject of MDM and Orion's discussion. I am speaking toward Amir-Husayn's message that IRI has systematic torture and beating and he was referring to the present time, NOW. I disagreed that it was policy to commit un-Islamic acts like torture, and Zareen's message from Imam Ali AS reiterated that he AS said not to torture Ibn Muljam. So there is no policy to torture prisoners in the Islamic Republic of Iran. There was some mistreatment of prisoners in an isolated incident last year and the few involved were put on trial and punished, and as a sign of contempt for that incident the prison was closed down. No doubt several people lost their job at that very time. IRI does not condone torture and I would not believe otherwise. If you want, we can agree that we do not see things the same and leave it at that. ws

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(bismillah)

(salam)

I have no idea what year Bro Macisaac was in IRI. As I said, I was not speaking about the past, especially the time of 1988 which is the subject of MDM and Orion's discussion. I am speaking toward Amir-Husayn's message that IRI has systematic torture and beating and he was referring to the present time, NOW. I disagreed that it was policy to commit un-Islamic acts like torture, and Zareen's message from Imam Ali AS reiterated that he AS said not to torture Ibn Muljam. So there is no policy to torture prisoners in the Islamic Republic of Iran. There was some mistreatment of prisoners in an isolated incident last year and the few involved were put on trial and punished, and as a sign of contempt for that incident the prison was closed down. No doubt several people lost their job at that very time. IRI does not condone torture and I would not believe otherwise. If you want, we can agree that we do not see things the same and leave it at that. ws

(wasalam)

1997-98. Hameedeh, all of your posts seem to be based on one fundamental assumption, that is, that if Islam says one thing, it's impossible for Iran to be doing otherwise. This is extremely idealistic, and sorry to say, naive. Iran is a country just like any other out there, composed of good people, bad people, and in between people. It is not being run by a ma`sum so you should not expect and idealize it to that stature. The image you seem to have is one of a Utopia, and frankly it's a fantasy that doesn't correspond to the reality there. Have you ever lived in Iran for an extended period of time (I don't mean gone on some tour, I mean actually lived there for over a year say, learning the language and interacting with the people)?

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(wasalam)

1997-98. Hameedeh, all of your posts seem to be based on one fundamental assumption, that is, that if Islam says one thing, it's impossible for Iran to be doing otherwise. This is extremely idealistic, and sorry to say, naive. Iran is a country just like any other out there, composed of good people, bad people, and in between people. It is not being run by a ma`sum so you should not expect and idealize it to that stature. The image you seem to have is one of a Utopia, and frankly it's a fantasy that doesn't correspond to the reality there. Have you ever lived in Iran for an extended period of time (I don't mean gone on some tour, I mean actually lived there for over a year say, learning the language and interacting with the people)?

(bismillah)

(salam)

Calling me naïve is not helpful. Why do you imply that you have lived in IRI longer than I have, so you are more knowledgeable? Half of my family members live in the IRI and they are educated and speak English so there is no language barrier between me and the IRI. My husband reads all farsi newspapers online and keeps me up-to-date as needed. If your sources are feeding you negative things about IRI, you could try to ask others who are not biased against the government. ws

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Calling me naïve is not helpful. Why do you imply that you have lived in IRI longer than I have, so you are more knowledgeable? Half of my family members live in the IRI and they are educated and speak English so there is no language barrier between me and the IRI. My husband reads all farsi newspapers online and keeps me up-to-date as needed. If your sources are feeding you negative things about IRI, you could try to ask others who are not biased against the government. ws

(wasalam)

So reading that, I take it the answer is no, you've never lived in Iran, do not understand Farsi, and your link to the country is that you are married to an Iranian husband (whose family, your in-laws, live in Iran). Sorry but that doesn't really cut it. I don't like to single you out, but I've seen this with all too many of the ardent Iran followers, that they have this ultra-Utopian vision of what the country, its people, and its government are like. It doesn't really matter how much evidence you can provide to the contrary, so long as it clashes with their idealism they will reject it outright. In this thread you've done just that. When presented with evidence that torture and abuse goes on in Iran, you dismiss because such behavior would be unIslamic, thus in your view, impossible for Iran to be doing. Doesn't that at all strike you as rather simplistic? It's kind of like the communist supporters in the US around when the USSR was still young, idealizing it to an absurd ideal while remaining oblivious to the realities of life there. It doesn't matter what the reality is to an ideologue, it's the image of the Utopia that matters.

But sister, this can be a subtle form of idolatry, idolizing a nation-state. Doesn't mean you have to believe every negative thing that is said, but for goodness sake be realistic here. Understand where I'm coming from here, I used to be pretty much just like you. I completely idealized that country, kept its flag on my wall, did taqlid to its "Rahbar". And then I lived there, the bubble was shattered, and I left that country in a very bad state faith-wise. I don't want to see that happen to others, such as yourself.

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(wasalam)

So reading that, I take it the answer is no, you've never lived in Iran, do not understand Farsi, and your link to the country is that you are married to an Iranian husband (whose family, your in-laws, live in Iran). Sorry but that doesn't really cut it. I don't like to single you out, but I've seen this with all too many of the ardent Iran followers, that they have this ultra-Utopian vision of what the country, its people, and its government are like. It doesn't really matter how much evidence you can provide to the contrary, so long as it clashes with their idealism they will reject it outright. In this thread you've done just that. When presented with evidence that torture and abuse goes on in Iran, you dismiss because such behavior would be unIslamic, thus in your view, impossible for Iran to be doing. Doesn't that at all strike you as rather simplistic? It's kind of like the communist supporters in the US around when the USSR was still young, idealizing it to an absurd ideal while remaining oblivious to the realities of life there. It doesn't matter what the reality is to an ideologue, it's the image of the Utopia that matters.

But sister, this can be a subtle form of idolatry, idolizing a nation-state. Doesn't mean you have to believe every negative thing that is said, but for goodness sake be realistic here. Understand where I'm coming from here, I used to be pretty much just like you. I completely idealized that country, kept its flag on my wall, did taqlid to its "Rahbar". And then I lived there, the bubble was shattered, and I left that country in a very bad state faith-wise. I don't want to see that happen to others, such as yourself.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Such a thing would not happen to me, inshaAllah. Rest assured that I do not idolize IRI but admire it with all my being and pray for its success. Allah SWT is my Lord, Muhammad SA is my Prophet, Ahlul Bayt AS are my guides, Imam Khomeini RA is my marja, and Ayatollah Khamenei HA is my Rahbar, may Allah extend his life until the return of Imam Zaman AJ. Thank you for explaining your position. I pray that your words are not misunderstood by anyone, especially young people on this website. I wish you peace, brother. ws

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personally i think that iran doesnt torture anyone because the people who run it. some people might torture in person but if the main person knows about it, it will

not happen, i'm with Hameedeh on this. Iran is run by shia and without iran there will be no muslim speaking out in the world not just shia.

Salam

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(bismillah)

(bismillah)

Three points:

1-During the time of Rasool Allah (pbuh) and the government of Imam Ali (as) were there no crimes. Was that a Utopian state. If yes, why were there courts, cases and punishments. To expect that under the Masooms (A) rule people stop commuting sins and all become pious is unrealistic.

2-We don't consider Iran to be an ultra-Utopian country. We consider it as an state in which government are doing what is humanly possible to establish an Islamic society. They are just doing their job to fulfill the commands of Allah. But that does not make it perfect or error free.

3-Despite of all its imperfection and shortfalls. It is the only Shia Islamic state in the world. And unlike other Muslim countries, we have no doubt about the sincerity and good intentions of its leaders.

People who do not agree with IRI, if they have the guts, why dont they establish their own ideal state somewhere else and leave IRI alone.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Such a thing would not happen to me, inshaAllah. Rest assured that I do not idolize IRI but admire it with all my being and pray for its success. Allah SWT is my Lord, Muhammad SA is my Prophet, Ahlul Bayt AS are my guides, Imam Khomeini RA is my marja, and Ayatollah Khamenei HA is my Rahbar, may Allah extend his life until the return of Imam Zaman AJ. Thank you for explaining your position. I pray that your words are not misunderstood by anyone, especially young people on this website. I wish you peace, brother. ws

if what u r saying is right then we should have the names of the wali e faqihs of the future.

Allah appoint 12 aimma a.s and knew them by name n Shias had their names n number.

If u r truthful then ask ur rahbar that your marja, I.e., khumayni was told about this. If they are not divinely appointed then all Sunnis post ghayba stand right in position n there is no difference bcos in being a Sunni or Shia as they all believe(atleast most of them) in imam Mahdi ajf.

Is itehad ulbayn al muslemeen fatwa, praying behind them fatwa n Khomeini saying la Shia la Sunni is a proof that no one is wrong n is free soul in ghayba.

Anybody can reply as we are talking abt divine appointment, which is done by a prophet as always has been. Did our imam ajf may I sacrifice my life for him appoint them if so how many n y didn't he do this for a thousand years preceding khomeni.

Ya Ali madad

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(salam)

The incident at Kahrizak prison was not a single incident. There have been other cases. Remember Zahra Kazemi at Evin prison?

(bismillah)

(salam)

Yes, I remember the Canadian case very well. She was a spy who entered Iran as a journalist, destroyed evidence of her spying by exposing her film. After her accidental death, a man claiming to be a doctor asked for political asylum in Canada and he claimed that he had examined her and she was tortured. However the Iranian hospital denied that he was a doctor there. Obviously the doctor hoped his application for asylum would be approved, so anything that he could say against the government of IRI would be helpful to himself. A lot of fiction going on with that case. The Kahrizak prison was the incident I was referring to and thank you for reminding about it. I did not say that Kahrizak prison was one incident, I said it was an isolated incident that occurred last year. The Kazemi incident was not recent, more than five years ago.

Brother Macisaac mentioned, Iran is a country composed of good people, bad people, and in between people. Therefore, isolated incidents, unfortunately, can occur. What shall we make of these two incidents, the Kazemi incident and the Kahrizak incident? If family members in Iran claim torture in two incidents during the last seven years it is not evidence of a systematic policy of torture. The systematic use of torture is at Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Guantanamo, etc. The Islamic Republic of Iran sends prisoners to Hajj and on furlough to visit relatives, facilitates their education and learning how to read the Holy Qur'an. They hold ceremonies so that inmates can get married and help them find jobs when they leave prison. The IRI cannot be compared to any non-Islamic country. If you all keep arguing with what I have said in this topic, then I will have to come back here and repeat myself. So it is your choice, leave me alone or just keep after me. But know that I am not backing down from my stance. IRI, though not perfect, is a bastion of all things goodness, and you just keep thinking that the country where you live is better. Allah SWT knows best.

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Yes, I remember the Canadian case very well. She was a spy who entered Iran as a journalist, destroyed evidence of her spying by exposing her film. After her accidental death, a man claiming to be a doctor asked for political asylum in Canada and he claimed that he had examined her and she was tortured. However the Iranian hospital denied that he was a doctor there. Obviously the doctor hoped his application for asylum would be approved, so anything that he could say against the government of IRI would be helpful to himself. A lot of fiction going on with that case. The Kahrizak prison was the incident I was referring to and thank you for reminding about it. I did not say that Kahrizak prison was one incident, I said it was an isolated incident that occurred last year. The Kazemi incident was not recent, more than five years ago.

Brother Macisaac mentioned, Iran is a country composed of good people, bad people, and in between people. Therefore, isolated incidents, unfortunately, can occur. What shall we make of these two incidents, the Kazemi incident and the Kahrizak incident? If family members in Iran claim torture in two incidents during the last seven years it is not evidence of a systematic policy of torture. The systematic use of torture is at Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Guantanamo, etc. The Islamic Republic of Iran sends prisoners to Hajj and on furlough to visit relatives, facilitates their education and learning how to read the Holy Qur'an. They hold ceremonies so that inmates can get married and help them find jobs when they leave prison. The IRI cannot be compared to any non-Islamic country. If you all keep arguing with what I have said in this topic, then I will have to come back here and repeat myself. So it is your choice, leave me alone or just keep after me. But know that I am not backing down from my stance. IRI, though not perfect, is a bastion of all things goodness, and you just keep thinking that the country where you live is better. Allah SWT knows best.

Jazak Allah Khaira Sister Hameedeh,

Keep up the good work.

:)

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(salam)

(bismillah)

(salam)

Yes, I remember the Canadian case very well. She was a spy who entered Iran as a journalist, destroyed evidence of her spying by exposing her film. After her accidental death, a man claiming to be a doctor asked for political asylum in Canada and he claimed that he had examined her and she was tortured. However the Iranian hospital denied that he was a doctor there. Obviously the doctor hoped his application for asylum would be approved, so anything that he could say against the government of IRI would be helpful to himself. A lot of fiction going on with that case. The Kahrizak prison was the incident I was referring to and thank you for reminding about it. I did not say that Kahrizak prison was one incident, I said it was an isolated incident that occurred last year. The Kazemi incident was not recent, more than five years ago.

Brother Macisaac mentioned, Iran is a country composed of good people, bad people, and in between people. Therefore, isolated incidents, unfortunately, can occur. What shall we make of these two incidents, the Kazemi incident and the Kahrizak incident? If family members in Iran claim torture in two incidents during the last seven years it is not evidence of a systematic policy of torture. The systematic use of torture is at Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Guantanamo, etc. The Islamic Republic of Iran sends prisoners to Hajj and on furlough to visit relatives, facilitates their education and learning how to read the Holy Qur'an. They hold ceremonies so that inmates can get married and help them find jobs when they leave prison. The IRI cannot be compared to any non-Islamic country. If you all keep arguing with what I have said in this topic, then I will have to come back here and repeat myself. So it is your choice, leave me alone or just keep after me. But know that I am not backing down from my stance. IRI, though not perfect, is a bastion of all things goodness, and you just keep thinking that the country where you live is better. Allah SWT knows best.

If she was a spy, then she should be punished. She died in the prison because of the torture. Do you think people drop off from the face of the earth because of a fever or cough?

I finds it hard to believe the Iranian version of the story for the simple fact that they did not return Zahra Kazemi body to his family in Canada. His son asked for her mom's body. Can you tell me where in the Islamic Sharia you can deny a family the body of their dead mother?

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(salam)

If she was a spy, then she should be punished. She died in the prison because of the torture. Do you think people drop off from the face of the earth because of a fever or cough?

I finds it hard to believe the Iranian version of the story for the simple fact that they did not return Zahra Kazemi body to his family in Canada. His son asked for her mom's body. Can you tell me where in the Islamic Sharia you can deny a family the body of their dead mother?

(bismillah)

(salam)

Whatever people outside the country claim in order to besmirch the name of the Islamic Republic of Iran, no matter how many people claim that she died from torture, it was investigated as a suicide and the case was closed. It is sad that her only son wanted her body to be buried in Canada. All her family members in Iran wanted her body to be buried ithere with Shia Islamic rituals. Their wish was granted. The son probably finds it difficult to go to visit his mom's grave, but all her family members in IRI were satisfied with keeping her near themselves. ws

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So reading that, I take it the answer is no, you've never lived in Iran, do not understand Farsi, and your link to the country is that you are married to an Iranian husband (whose family, your in-laws, live in Iran). Sorry but that doesn't really cut it. I don't like to single you out, but I've seen this with all too many of the ardent Iran followers, that they have this ultra-Utopian vision of what the country, its people, and its government are like. It doesn't really matter how much evidence you can provide to the contrary, so long as it clashes with their idealism they will reject it outright. In this thread you've done just that. When presented with evidence that torture and abuse goes on in Iran, you dismiss because such behavior would be unIslamic, thus in your view, impossible for Iran to be doing. Doesn't that at all strike you as rather simplistic? It's kind of like the communist supporters in the US around when the USSR was still young, idealizing it to an absurd ideal while remaining oblivious to the realities of life there. It doesn't matter what the reality is to an ideologue, it's the image of the Utopia that matters.

But sister, this can be a subtle form of idolatry, idolizing a nation-state. Doesn't mean you have to believe every negative thing that is said, but for goodness sake be realistic here. Understand where I'm coming from here, I used to be pretty much just like you. I completely idealized that country, kept its flag on my wall, did taqlid to its "Rahbar". And then I lived there, the bubble was shattered, and I left that country in a very bad state faith-wise. I don't want to see that happen to others, such as yourself.

Wow, day by day you reveal more of your incomptence as an administrator. What kind of debate is this? Personal? And then you like to consider yourself a "researcher" too, who has read all the primary Arabic jurisprudential and secondary Farsi populist works?? This sniping at personal information is completely unacceptable, let alone in the guise of an administrator. Reported. (even though that doesn't really mean anything with your own cronies in the hot seat).

And this is about as far as your argument extends regarding WF. Simply assuming the opposition to be all categorically over-zealous naive supporters. No wonder you are so petrified to debate me.

With Prayers For the Hastening Of Your Leave From Administration In Any Form, Shape Or Size,

The Persian Shah

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Whatever people outside the country claim in order to besmirch the name of the Islamic Republic of Iran, no matter how many people claim that she died from torture, it was investigated as a suicide and the case was closed. It is sad that her only son wanted her body to be buried in Canada. All her family members in Iran wanted her body to be buried ithere with Shia Islamic rituals. Their wish was granted. The son probably finds it difficult to go to visit his mom's grave, but all her family members in IRI were satisfied with keeping her near themselves. ws

.......and the cow jumped over the moon........

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.. . . I used to be pretty much just like you. I completely idealized that country, kept its flag on my wall, did taqlid to its "Rahbar". And then I lived there, the bubble was shattered, and I left that country in a very bad state faith-wise. I don't want to see that happen to others, such as yourself.

I can relate to it very well. That's pretty much been the case with me too, except that I have not lived in Iran per se but visited the country more times than an average Iranian born in XYZ Western country in a whole life time.

(bismillah)

(bismillah)

Three points:

1-During the time of Rasool Allah (pbuh) and the government of Imam Ali (as) were there no crimes. Was that a Utopian state. If yes, why were there courts, cases and punishments. To expect that under the Masooms (A) rule people stop commuting sins and all become pious is unrealistic.

2-We don't consider Iran to be an ultra-Utopian country. We consider it as an state in which government are doing what is humanly possible to establish an Islamic society. They are just doing their job to fulfill the commands of Allah. But that does not make it perfect or error free.

3-Despite of all its imperfection and shortfalls. It is the only Shia Islamic state in the world. And unlike other Muslim countries, we have no doubt about the sincerity and good intentions of its leaders.

People who do not agree with IRI, if they have the guts, why dont they establish their own ideal state somewhere else and leave IRI alone.

It was a Shia dominated state before the revolution and it is a Shia dominated state after the revolution.

Who said our goal is to create an ideal "Shia Islamic state" elsewhere? Yes, states do not have religions. People have.

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I can relate to it very well. That's pretty much been the case with me too, except that I have not lived in Iran per se but visited the country more times than an average Iranian born in XYZ Western country in a whole life time.

I've never held the illusions you guys have and I've never been disappointed, partly because of my perspective. I don't expect the IRI to be perfect or even to come close. I don't think that the current political system is perfect, but I think it is worthy of being sustained and developed.

I think that there are various countries which are actually more Islamic than the IRI in some ways. The social/economic justice systems in the Nordic countries I think are very Islamic, but those countries are at a different stage of economic development. Similarly I think that the levels of racial equality prevalent in countries such as the UK are greater and more Islamic than is the case in the IRI. But again I am happy to give the IRI the time to evolve.

While I do not expect perfection from the IRI, I do expect it to be better on various parameters (especially Islamic ones) than other countries at a similar level of development. And I continue to believe that it is.

Certainly the current systemin the IRI is the least of the problem the world faces. Yet some people seem to focus a lot of their energies on its perceived weaknesses and for this reason I am suspicious of their motives.

Edited by Haji 2003

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Salam Aleykom,

I have not bothered reading most of the bickering on this section but the comment by the brother Invicta was the most sensible, I think you should all follow his advice. The advice I gave in my original post was sort of along the same lines or at least meant to be in the same spirit: do not waste the precious gift of life arguing over fickle matters. If you truly want to know Truth, ask Allah SWT and seek for yourself, He is Al Hadi, The Guider and has left us the Qoran and the Ahlol Bayt AS to make the way of Islam crystal clear to mankind.

For those brothers and sisters who feel that I have weakened their case somehow, please accept my appologies, that was not my intention. Let me state to those of you who harbour negative feelings towards Iran for whatever reason, that my views are still unfortunately only held by a very small minority of Iran supporters. The majority of Iran supporters actually only support Iran because of the positive influence that the revolution has had not only on the Iranian people, but on all peace-loving people, ie their support does not stem from religous conviction in particular, but rather, from evidence of an increasingly more efficient system that serves the people. They realize also that what they see in the media is just another front on the war that was initiated against Iran by her enemies since the beginning of the revolution. From the Iran-Iraq war to the MKO to the influx of dirt cheap drugs pushed into Iran from Afghanistan, to the buying out of the weak hearted in the establishment, among many others. Only very few of us share the same conviction in the leadership that I have, so please, do not hold my views against the majority or their arguments for whatever reason.

Again, I would still like to advise you all to refrain from such useless debates unless you genuinely want to learn something and to seek on your own otherwise you are just feeding the negative tendencies within you and are accomplishing nothing.

There are those that believe, those that claim to believe and those do not believe. To each his own. You to yours and us to ours. Peace.

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Certainly the current systemin the IRI is the least of the problem the world faces. Yet some people seem to focus a lot of their energies on its perceived weaknesses and for this reason I am suspicious of their motives.

(bismillah)

(salam)

yes i can relate to this

and

to some brothers who might be hurt for right or wrong reasons

kindly do not attack your other brothers

it is sad

(wasalam)

Edited by haideriam

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Salam Alaikum,

I am still on the fence with this argument.  What keeps me from siding with MDM is that I think context is a highly important issue here.  There was a real or imagined threat internally in the IRI that the MKO and the like were actively plotting against the government during a time of war.  From MDM's own evidence, it appears Ayat. Khomeini gave all prisoners the option of pledging their allegiance to the Islamic Republic.  Those who did not were executed for treason.   If they won't pledge allegiance, how much more evidence does one need to convict the prisoners of treason?  Anti-government plots can be conceived and instigated in prison so often death to traitors is the only option if the civic social order is to be restored.  

During one of Syed Abbas' lectures in Seattle, he said one of the hardest knowledges to master in Islamic jurisprudence is 'knowing the greater good.'  He gave an arabic term for this, but i haven't a clue anymore.  Maybe someone knows here?  

An easy scenario:  A person is dying of starvation on an island full of pigs.  What is the halal thing to do?  Eat the pigs of course because saving one's life is a greater good than is the avoidance of pork.  Two goods contradict each other, so one is chosen over the other.

A slightly more difficult scenario:  Two people are dying of starvation and two people have already died.  Can the two living people eat the two dead people to survive?  Again two goods contradicting each other.

An even more difficult scenario:  a psychopath has captured me and another guy.  In order for me to live i have to kill my friend.  What do I do?  What is the greater good, saving my life or saving my friend's life?

Does anyone know what this type of knowledge is called in Islam?

I think it is from this angle that Orion's side needs to approach the debate.  The problem though is that officially no wrong doings occurred so there is nothing to talk talk about.  So maybe a more general discussion of this particular 'greater good' science and how it relates to statecraft.   It was wartime after all, and that justifies a lot more than what happens during peacetime.   

I am not aware of it being against international law to execute people for treason.  Any legal experts here?

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(salam)

(bismillah)

(salam)

Yes, I remember the Canadian case very well. She was a spy who entered Iran as a journalist, destroyed evidence of her spying by exposing her film. After her accidental death, a man claiming to be a doctor asked for political asylum in Canada and he claimed that he had examined her and she was tortured. However the Iranian hospital denied that he was a doctor there. Obviously the doctor hoped his application for asylum would be approved, so anything that he could say against the government of IRI would be helpful to himself. A lot of fiction going on with that case. The Kahrizak prison was the incident I was referring to and thank you for reminding about it. I did not say that Kahrizak prison was one incident, I said it was an isolated incident that occurred last year. The Kazemi incident was not recent, more than five years ago.

Brother Macisaac mentioned, Iran is a country composed of good people, bad people, and in between people. Therefore, isolated incidents, unfortunately, can occur. What shall we make of these two incidents, the Kazemi incident and the Kahrizak incident? If family members in Iran claim torture in two incidents during the last seven years it is not evidence of a systematic policy of torture. The systematic use of torture is at Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Guantanamo, etc. The Islamic Republic of Iran sends prisoners to Hajj and on furlough to visit relatives, facilitates their education and learning how to read the Holy Qur'an. They hold ceremonies so that inmates can get married and help them find jobs when they leave prison. The IRI cannot be compared to any non-Islamic country. If you all keep arguing with what I have said in this topic, then I will have to come back here and repeat myself. So it is your choice, leave me alone or just keep after me. But know that I am not backing down from my stance. IRI, though not perfect, is a bastion of all things goodness, and you just keep thinking that the country where you live is better. Allah SWT knows best.

How/Where did you get that the cause of death was suicide? The Iranian official version of the story (initially) was that the cause of her death was either due to a stroke or falling down but I am unaware of suicide being one of the causes of her death.

The other version of the story is that Zahra Kazemi died due to torture (inflicted on her while she was detained in the prison for 19 days). You can look up the chronology or the time line of the event (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahra_Kazemi). This was a big news when it happened. According to a number of people (official from the Iranian government and medical staff who examine her), the cause of her death was due to violent injury to her head.

But you are free to believe either version of the story. You are also free to believe that the cause of the death was suicide. In the end, what is going to matter and be on everyoneís mind is

the fact that

i) She died in the custody

ii) In the prison

iii) After being detained for 19 days and

iv) Her body was not returned to her family as requested.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Whatever people outside the country claim in order to besmirch the name of the Islamic Republic of Iran, no matter how many people claim that she died from torture, it was investigated as a suicide and the case was closed. It is sad that her only son wanted her body to be buried in Canada. All her family members in Iran wanted her body to be buried ithere with Shia Islamic rituals. Their wish was granted. The son probably finds it difficult to go to visit his mom's grave, but all her family members in IRI were satisfied with keeping her near themselves. ws

Her body was contested by her son who wanted to bury her mother according to her wishes in Canada. As per Sharia, who do you think have more rights to decide where Zahra Kazemi should be buried; her relatives (her mother and others), the Iranian Government or her own son? I am interested to hear your take on this.

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It was a Shia dominated state before the revolution and it is a Shia dominated state after the revolution.

There are several other places dominated by Shia like Southern Iraq, South Lebanon, Bahrain, Baltistan, etc.

Who said our goal is to create an ideal "Shia Islamic state" elsewhere? Yes, states do not have religions. People have.

Very smart!!!!

So you want to bring down the only Shia Islamic state we have, but dont want to/or have the guts to create another one.

Keep it up.

:unsure:

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Who said our goal is to create an ideal "Shia Islamic state" elsewhere? Yes, states do not have religions. People have.

(bismillah)

(salam)

akhi what does IRI or IRP mean

and if by states you mean land then be aware that the sama'a and the ardh are in a constant state of prostration to their lord

(wasalam)

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(salam)

How/Where did you get that the cause of death was suicide? The Iranian official version of the story (initially) was that the cause of her death was either due to a stroke or falling down but I am unaware of suicide being one of the causes of her death.

The other version of the story is that Zahra Kazemi died due to torture (inflicted on her while she was detained in the prison for 19 days). You can look up the chronology or the time line of the event (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahra_Kazemi). This was a big news when it happened. According to a number of people (official from the Iranian government and medical staff who examine her), the cause of her death was due to violent injury to her head.

But you are free to believe either version of the story. You are also free to believe that the cause of the death was suicide.

Her body was contested by her son who wanted to bury her mother according to her wishes in Canada. As per Sharia, who do you think have more rights to decide where Zahra Kazemi should be buried; her relatives (her mother and others), the Iranian Government or her own son? I am interested to hear your take on this.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Yes it was big news and I remember it well, although I looked up dates from a Canadian news outlet, not Wikipedia. Zahra Kazemi entered Iran as a journalist, but when she was detained for photographing in a restricted area and asked to turn over her camera, she exposed her film, destroying evidence that she was a spy. She was arrested on June 23, 2003, and questioned daily until she was found on the floor on June 27, 2003, and taken to hospital. I never said she died from suicide. I said the case was investigated as a suicide. Her skull fracture could have been caused by a number of reasons, including jumping out of bed and landing on her head [suicide], falling out of bed from a seizure, an accidental fall from medication that made her dizzy, low blood pressure making her dizzy and causing her to fall, etc. She was visited three times while in the hospital by officials from Canada's Foreign Affairs Department and they did not file a claim that she had been tortured. It was not until after her death on July 11, 2003, that Canada claimed that she was tortured and asked the government of Iran to investigate. It was not until after she was buried that her son asked that her body be sent to Canada. The man accused of beating her to death was acquitted and the case was closed. A doctor under the guise of seeking medical treatment in Europe left Iran in August 2004, but it was more than seven months later on March 31, 2005 that the doctor told Canadian authorities that he was on duty when she was admitted to the hospital and he could substantiate that she had been tortured. However the Iranian hospital denied that he worked for them. He was saying what Canada wanted to hear in exchange for his and his family's asylum.

About her son, I'm sure that he is bitter that she was buried in Iran since he does not live there, but her mother and her other family members wanted to bury her near themselves, in a Muslim country with Shia Islamic rituals. I'm sure her family thought they made the right decision, since all of them outnumbered the wishes of one person, her son. ws

IN DEPTH ZAHRA KAZEMI. http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kazemi/

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(bismillah)

Can somEone from WF camp answer post 1028

First of all I would like to know if you believe in TAQLID?

Because it would be difficult for you to understand the issue of Walayat e Faqihi (WF) without understanding TAQLID first.

if what u r saying is right then we should have the names of the wali e faqihs of the future.

Allah appoint 12 aimma a.s and knew them by name n Shias had their names n number.

If u r truthful then ask ur rahbar that your marja, I.e., khumayni was told about this..

You are confusing the issue of Imamat and Wilayat of a Masoome (A) with the Wilayat of a Faqih. Unlike Masoom Imams (A), Wali e Faqihs (WF) are not appointed by Allah. They are the deputies of the Masoom Imam (ATF) and attain their position by developing qualities in themselves like knowledge, taqwa, etc and support of the people.

If they are not divinely appointed then all Sunnis post ghayba stand right in position n there is no difference bcos in being a Sunni or Shia as they all believe(atleast most of them) in imam Mahdi ajf.

According to Sunnis anyone could become an Imam/Leader/Khalifa. Even if he attains it by force. This is why they accepted the Khalafat of several dynasties like Bani Ummayah, Bani Abbas etc. This concept is very different from the Shia concept of Imamat.

Is itehad ulbayn al muslemeen fatwa, praying behind them fatwa n Khomeini saying la Shia la Sunni is a proof that no one is wrong n is free soul in ghayba.

If I remember correctly, you can pray behind the Sunnis but you will be praying individually and not like we pray in congregation behind an Imam.

Anybody can reply as we are talking abt divine appointment, which is done by a prophet as always has been. Did our imam ajf may I sacrifice my life for him appoint them if so how many n y didn't he do this for a thousand years preceding khomeni.

See above.

WS

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(salam)

About her son, I'm sure that he is bitter that she was buried in Iran

Sure. He is just a bitter young man.

but her mother and her other family members wanted to bury her near themselves, in a Muslim country with Shia Islamic rituals. I'm sure her family thought they made the right decision, since all of them outnumbered the wishes of one person, her son. ws

Can you back this up with a ruling as per Islamic Sharia. Can you please provide a fatwa from your marja (Sayyed Khamenei) or any Shia mujtahid that people can democratically elect to bury a dead body wherever they wish and disregarding the wishes of her son (you keep on forgetting that her family did contest the burial). Please feel free to refer to the Holy Quran, the Sunnah of the Prophet and the teaching of the ahlul bayt.

Yes it was big news and I remember it well, although I looked up dates from a Canadian news outlet, not Wikipedia. Zahra Kazemi entered Iran as a journalist, but when she was detained for photographing in a restricted area and asked to turn over her camera, she exposed her film, destroying evidence that she was a spy. She was arrested on June 23, 2003, and questioned daily until she was found on the floor on June 27, 2003, and taken to hospital. I never said she died from suicide. I said the case was investigated as a suicide. Her skull fracture could have been caused by a number of reasons, including jumping out of bed and landing on her head [suicide], falling out of bed from a seizure, an accidental fall from medication that made her dizzy, low blood pressure making her dizzy and causing her to fall, etc. She was visited three times while in the hospital by officials from Canada's Foreign Affairs Department and they did not file a claim that she had been tortured. It was not until after her death on July 11, 2003, that Canada claimed that she was tortured and asked the government of Iran to investigate. It was not until after she was buried that her son asked that her body be sent to Canada. The man accused of beating her to death was acquitted and the case was closed. A doctor under the guise of seeking medical treatment in Europe left Iran in August 2004, but it was more than seven months later on March 31, 2005 that the doctor told Canadian authorities that he was on duty when she was admitted to the hospital and he could substantiate that she had been tortured. However the Iranian hospital denied that he worked for them. He was saying what Canada wanted to hear in exchange for his and his family's asylum.

IN DEPTH ZAHRA KAZEMI. http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kazemi/

I've checked your link. It doesn't state anything about suicide. Can you pin point me the exact paragraph.

This was the first news report about the incident

July 13, 2003:

Iran's official news agency reports that Kazemi "suffered a stroke when she was subject to interrogation and died in hospital." The same day, under pressure from Canada, Iran's president, Mohammad Khatami, orders an investigation into her death.

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MDM bro :) come on we have been through this before haven't we? Claim and counter-claim in a previous thread?

[post #75 onwards]

Khayr, I have already stated everything there what I wanted to and others have too but I wanted to add something here since the recent events will highlight that all the information or issues regarding this stuff would not come out or be known that easily. Take the letter of Imam Khomeini to Montazeri rebuking him and stripping him off the position of successorship was not released until quiet a bit after his death. We would never know the truth of these issues until we see proof of it and at the moment you have one side claiming things yes it is claims. I can go tomorrow and write a book claiming a 1000 things and if I am an influential figure in society and have a high position in certain circles people will believe it and turn against those people who I have made the claim against. A book cannot provide evidence remember that it is just words. If you wish to reach the truth at the end of it all then you need to look at all sides, cross reference, things adding up or not etc etc. You cannot just take one source or a couple of sources and say its all good.

You may recall a few years back there was such a big hype about a particular story in relation with Ayatollah Bahjat [r] and a woman being born deemed to be the killer of Imam Mahdi [aj]? Well funnily enough people believed that story to be gospel and narrated it again and again without realising that it was not true at all and the Marhum had distanced himself from such claims. The example is to draw a parallel here, you do not know anything or everything about an author of the book or about the officials. You are assuming everything that is written is done so in good intention but what if it is not? What if people have written deliberately to mask the truth, to create an image? Like Cyan and others said in that thread I have linked that facts are blurred and reality is unknown. You can only go to a certain point and if you are being objective you will have to draw a line and say ok there is this but where is the other side. If you are talking about the character of people then you cannot assume their characters from books or articles, meet them, sit with them and see for yourself and then come to a conclusion.

Like I asked you in the previous thread how do you ascertain the truth? Is it by seeing everything which is written against the Government and these Ulemas? If not then how do you cross reference to know the truth? Do you have an autobiography or memoirs of these Ulemas to know what is written in their name to be right? Like Khomeini mentions specifically in his last will that everything that he has personally decreeded is signed by him or said by him anything otherwise is not from him or for example Ayatollah Montazeri [r] memoirs were not released until after his death did you have a look there regarding most of the words written under his name or attributed to him? We can sit here and claim and counter claim till the cows come home but tell me who benefits from this? me? you? the readers of this thread? No one all we do is create divisions between ourselves and drift apart further. If the issue is WF, then realise this that this issue was not made to create enemity between the believers.

I am not saying do not investigate sure if that is what you wish to do then by all means but realise that you have to be fair and objective. You have to look at both sides, now if by default there is little from one side and massive piles from the other then you have to be objective and swift through the information to distinguish falsehood from truth in these sides and take what is relevant. People have grudges against others, how do you know what someone has written is pure and specific to the events rather than exaggerated and spiced up to create a certain image?

Lastly, regarding Ayatollah Montazeri [r] he was not stripped off his position and told to shy away from politics because of raising this issue. There are a number of things which caused Imam Khomeini [r] to take that position. Even the issue of MKO, a number of you should read about their role in detail to know why there was such a hard response against them. Many of them did end up getting executed for their crimes and rightly so. There are a number of sympathisers of MKO etc and what if that piece of information was deliberately built up to support them while at the same time dumbing down their crimes?

Edit: Also another thing to remember is this, there is a big difference between a state order or a direct order and an action by an over zealous person. I have heard many stories as well as seen things which is a result of an offical being over zealous and thinking he is the authority. Yes, this is a problem in Iran and by no means I agree with this approach and it should be clamped down. But you have to remember this difference.

Anyhow I hope your are successful in your venture bro!

Iltemase Dua

WS

I came to this point in this debate and had to stop and sign up because I felt the need to respond. Masha'Allah, I agree with the things you are saying here, such words are important for us all to remember, we have to keep in our hearts and minds at all times that we are shia, and as such we rise to a higher level of personage than anyone else in the world.

I had the opportunity to read some of the letters written by Imam Khomeini (HA) in response to the letters written by A. Montezari. Not all of His (HA) responses have been published for the general public to read, in my opinion, the reasoning it is to let the dividing between those of us that are shia and those for whom this religion is not in their heart begin. We are being sifted, and none of us realize it.

A shia will ask for two sides of any story, ask for proper witnesses to be brought forward in accordance with Islamic law, anyone who is not willing or neglects to do this and begins to make accusations without all the facts is not a shia in their heart. Backbiting, falsely accusing your brother, this is all eating from your dead brothers flesh.

Are those who are not following the shia faith full yet?

It is not enough to say with your tongue that you are shia, one must act like a shia, more ahadith than I can count on the actions and words of a shia in ahadith narrated by the Imam (as)'s

I digress, back to my original statement, I had the opportunity to read some of the letters in response to A. Montezari, again, not all were published for the Iranian public. Tears came from my eyes from reading of the responses given by Imam Khomeini (HA), and I felt shame to have ever felt an ounce of doubt in my heart in regards to what the truth might have been. I must say, if I found letters in response, so can anyone who has a real desire to know the facts. I am not unusual or have any more access than any other person off the street, yet I was able to find them and read them because I had the desire to know the truth from all sides and angles, and an unwillingness to make accusations without factual proof.

I recommend others start doing the same and quit being agents (knowingly or unknowingly), of the Shaytan.

Edited by IloveImam(atf)

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Salam Alaikum,

I am still on the fence with this argument. What keeps me from siding with MDM is that I think context is a highly important issue here. There was a real or imagined threat internally in the IRI that the MKO and the like were actively plotting against the government during a time of war. From MDM's own evidence, it appears Ayat. Khomeini gave all prisoners the option of pledging their allegiance to the Islamic Republic. Those who did not were executed for treason. If they won't pledge allegiance, how much more evidence does one need to convict the prisoners of treason? Anti-government plots can be conceived and instigated in prison so often death to traitors is the only option if the civic social order is to be restored.

(wasalam) bro.

i agree with you, and think that you have raised a key issue. the reason this whole argument has been so one sided all along is that my opposition have not been able to disprove that this massacre happened , instead they should have focused on what ayatollah khomeinis level of responsibility was for it. its a key difference. if they would have been mature enough to grasp this, then this whole debate would have been very much different. i think that bro inshallah tried to hint a few times that we should be talking about this, but it wasnt picked up by orion etc. khair.

forgive me, but i think this is going to be a controvertial post lol.

naturally, from what i have found out, i believe that ayatollah khomeini was more than a little responsible for the injustice. remember i am not talking about genuine MKO terrorists here. im talking about those caught up in the same net and executed who did not deserve death. Im no MKO supporter and never have claimed to be. i am however a supporter of justice, and believe a massive injustice was committed, and is being defended blindly due to the sahabification of ayatollah khomeini.

a lot of my friends are lawyers, and they say that if you want to prove something, then you look at prescedent, and see when something similar happened before.

for now lets not use names, lets say a man was in charge of a country, he identified a national threat, gave instructions to his circle which cascaded down to a street level in order to deal with the threat, and in his followers zeal and passion, many innocent people perished.

was the leader who initiatied the whole thing completely innocent, partly guilty or totally guilty?

has there been any prescedent of this in history?

please dont take this the wrong way, and its not an underhanded dig at a scholar, but theres a very similar situation i can think of within the 20th century.

has anyone ever studied the persecution of the jews by germany during the second world war?

the leader (hitler) identified the threat (jews ruining germany during WW1), and blamed them for terrorist attacks (the burning of the reischtag), and spread propaganda and set the path for their extermination by any means. eventually this spread to include all percieved enemies of the state of germany.

hitlker apologists say that he was not aware of the concentration camps, i.e. that he has enough plausible deniability to be seen as innocent since he was not aware of what exactly was going on in his name. but does this mean we should not blame him?

lets see this situation in this light.

the leader (ayatollah khomeini) identified the threat (MKO), and blamed them for terrorist attacks (assasinations, working for the enemy etc), and spread propaganda and set the path for their extermination by any means. eventually this spread to include all percieved enemies of the state of Iran.

however, in this situation, we have ample evidence that ayatollah khomeini was fully informed of exactly what was going on - in his name - via the letters of ayatollah montazeri and others.not only was he fully aware, but crucially, he did nothing to either stop or control his followers, instead instructed them to kill "by whatever is the quickest means"

so was he to blame? does a portion of the blame not lie with him, for dropping the match that started the forest fire?

also, your points about their continued support is another point orion and others should have focused on more.

there are two points here:

(1) those executed were already in prison. is their summary execution justified, considering the fatwa stated such conditions as working with the enemies of the country etc? also, we have eyewitness testimonies of the questions that they asked...they werent fair man. do we have any evidence at all that the accused had access to a defence? or a fair trial?

(2) support for any group does not equal death. even being anti the country you are living in is not a capital offence according to sharia.

the whole premise was flawed from the start

Edited by maula dha mallang

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if what u r saying is right then we should have the names of the wali e faqihs of the future.

Allah appoint 12 aimma a.s and knew them by name n Shias had their names n number.

If u r truthful then ask ur rahbar that your marja, I.e., khumayni was told about this. If they are not divinely appointed then all Sunnis post ghayba stand right in position n there is no difference bcos in being a Sunni or Shia as they all believe(atleast most of them) in imam Mahdi ajf.

Is itehad ulbayn al muslemeen fatwa, praying behind them fatwa n Khomeini saying la Shia la Sunni is a proof that no one is wrong n is free soul in ghayba.

Anybody can reply as we are talking abt divine appointment, which is done by a prophet as always has been. Did our imam ajf may I sacrifice my life for him appoint them if so how many n y didn't he do this for a thousand years preceding khomeni.

Ya Ali madad

You are against the WF stating that it is against Islamic law? then please bring your evidences of which Islamic laws were broken by creating an Islamic government in Iran. It is time to be quite specific in order for you to prove your point, please show me the actual Islamic laws that were broken when Iran set up an Islamic governance.

Edited by IloveImam(atf)

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I had the opportunity to read some of the letters written by Imam Khomeini (HA) in response to the letters written by A. Montezari. Not all of His (HA) responses have been published for the general public to read, in my opinion, the reasoning it is to let the dividing between those of us that are shia and those for whom this religion is not in their heart begin. We are being sifted, and none of us realize it.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Welcome to the forum.

I have read only one letter. If you feel its appropriate, could you post the other letters written by Imam Khomeini (HA) here for us to read.

Thanks,

WS

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