Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Abbas.

Are There Any Unacceptable Actions....

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

(bismillah)

they are from his official memoirs. they are letters which he posesses which he himself included into his own official memoirs. i have provided scans where available. i trust he was neither a liar nor an idiot, so i think his testimony has slightly more merit than your "mysterious shaykh" or your "booklets in iran" or your "im just saying what people believe".

Allah says in quran:

O ye who believe! If a wicked person comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth, lest ye harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what ye have done. (Quran 49.6)

How do you know that these so called "memoirs" are not fake. Ayatullah Montazari had a website which is still available. It has several of his books and views including his political views about the Islamic state. Can you show me the link to these "memoirs" at his official web-site?

Ayatullah Montazari web-site

Once you provide credible evidence we will go into detail of each peace of evidence.

where does amnesty international come into this?

I believe you are convinced by propaganda books, anti-iran websites and reports by organizations like Amnesty, Human rights org, etc. You have read stuff coming from these sources and have believed in them.

if you actually learn to read instead of quoting from your mysterious shaykh, you will see that i said he was witness to the tyranny and injustice by the regime, not the mass murders.

You were asked to give witnesses to the 1988 illegal executions. You were asked about something but you replied about another.

the letter speaks for itself. ayatollah khomeinis instructions to find the quickest means neccessary to wipe them out is all i need.

Not true. As per your own quotes Imam Khomeini (AR) was asked if the cases should be handled by the local authorities or should they be handled by people sitting in the provincial centers. He said whichever is quicker. But you are driving a false meaning from these instructions. You are saying that somehow it meant to kill people unjustly. There is a big difference b/w finding ways to implement the law quickly and killing someone unjustly.

the book is full of eyewitness testimonies...what, you think he sat in his room and made it all up?

You presented Mr. Ervand Abrahamian as an eye witness to the 1988 executions. But you failed to give even a single word about what he saw in the prison. How many were executed illegally in front of his eyes. The truth is that he is just a writer and historian. Is it not true that you put forward his name without realizing that he is not a witness himself. Just like you put the name of 2 Ayatullahs as witnesses without realizing that they were not eye witnesses.

The witnesses you listed so far are either coming from questionable sources or are not eye witnesses at all. Since you have failed to provide 2 adil witnesses, I want to give you another chance. In lieu of 2 adil witnesses you can provide a CONFESSION of Imam Khomeini to these alleged illegal mass executions of 1988. Do you have a confession?

And mind it, be careful this time. Dont repeat the same carelessness you showed with the witnesses.

-The confession should be clear and not subject to your interpretation.

-It should be officially authenticated or coming from official web-sites.

(I will not accept your cut and paste from anti-IRI books and web-sites).

-Both original (farsi) with seal and translation.

-It should be about 1988 illegal mass executions and not about some mistake or event that happened some other time. (I have already told you that according to reports Mr. Khalkhali may have killed some people wrongly and that their families were compensated according to Sharia law)

-Be ready for questioning.

so, orion, do you believe that ayatollah montazeri was duped by communists?

I have already replied to this question. Go back to to the previous page.

Edited by Orion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Orions wanted the official IRI version of the events in order to be just. Accusations, tohmat or fitnah are not tolerated. MDM has only provided the MKO and Ayatollah Montazeri versions of explanation

With the financial backing from the west and arabs... MKO started to destroy the Islamic Iran from inside...from the beginning of the revolution.

That was the reason, Imam Khomeini (r a) ordered MKO to be wipe out totally. What totally sad was the the second important man, Ayatollah Montazeri did not realized this... I wish that MDM would put the dismissal letter from Imam Khomeini to Ayatollah Montezari. Until today MDM has not done it yet.

MKOs are dangerous people... And for those who have interfaced with them would understand. If you caught one of this criminal and put them in jail...do you think they behave like a religious people and sit down nicely. Violent people behave violently where ever they are.

We have seen how Iraqi prisoners of Wars were treated...they were enemies of Iran and waged a war under the command of Saddam (la)...but they were treated humanely.

MKO is a terrorist organization and anti Islam, anti Ahlulbayt...and they should not be trusted at all. And those who supported them and symphatized with them are not to be trusted either.

Layman

(salam)

No one is doubting that the MKO is an evil cult. All the murderers and the killers (from MKO) deserve to die. I can understand why they are hated so much. I don't have any sympathy for them -whatsoever.

But you need to realize something. Do you know how many MKO terrorists Iran executed prior to the Summer of 1988? Tens of thousands between the years 1982-1987. These executions (prior to 1988) was done right under the nose of Ayatullah Montezari.

So, what was so special about the executions in the summer of 1988? This eventually got the heir-apparent of the Last Supreme Leader of Iran fired from his job. We are speaking about a specific event here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(wasalam)

Who says everything that goes on in Iran is supportable by hadiths?

(bismillah)

(salam)

As I said, if an inmate was mistreated, the person(s) who did it were put on trial and punished. The prison was closed.

Surely someone remembers this. I don't remember the name of the prison that was closed recently. It was an isolated incident.

Amir-Husayn said "the IRI has and continues to use systematic beatings and torture of prisoners as well as forced confessions."

I was asking for the hadith where the Holy Prophet SA said it is prohibited to slap the face of an animal.

Does anyone have any copy and paste about bruising someone's face? Is there a punishment fine for making a bloody nose?

These all point to the fact that beating and torturing is wrong in Islam, and IRI does not have a systematic policy to do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

I was asking for the hadith where the Holy Prophet SA said it is prohibited to slap the face of an animal.

Does anyone have any copy and paste about bruising someone's face? Is there a punishment fine for making a bloody nose?

These all point to the fact that beating and torturing is wrong in Islam, and IRI does not have a systematic policy to do so.

To the best of my knowledge, what you are describing is not acceptable.

We have the incident of how Imam Ali(as) treated his killer Ibn Muljam (LA).

- He asked rope on Ibn Muljam to be loosen, water given to him for drinking and not to torture him when inflicting punishment as prescribe by Sharia.

Imam Ali's (as) last will to his sons Imam Hasan (as) and Imam Hussain (as) after the attempt on his life by a stab from Ibn Muljam:

"My advice to you is to be conscious of Allah and steadfast in your religion. Do not yearn for the world, and do not be seduced by it. Do not resent anything you have missed in it. Proclaim the truth; work for the next world. Oppose the oppressor and support the oppressed. I advise you, and all my children, my relatives, and whosoever receives this message, to be conscious of Allah, to remove your differences, and to strengthen your ties. I heard your grandfather (s) say: "Reconciliation of your differences is more worthy than all prayers and all fasting." Fear Allah in matters concerning orphans. Attend to their nutrition and do not forget their interests in the middle of yours. Fear Allah in your relations with your neighbors. Your Prophet often recommended them to you, so much so that we thought he would give them a share in inheritance. Remain attached to the Quran. Nobody should surpass you in being intent on it, or more sincere in implementing it. Fear Allah in relation to your prayers. It is the pillar of your religion. Fear Allah in relation to His House; do not abandon it as long as you live. It you should do that you would abandon your dignity. Persist in jihad in the cause of Allah, with your money, your souls, and your tongue. Maintain communication and exchange of opinion among yourselves. Beware of disunity and enmity. Do not desist from promoting good deeds and cautioning against bad ones. Should you do that,the worst among you would be your leaders, and you will call upon Allah without response. O Children of Abdul Mattaleb! Do not shed the blood of Muslims under the banner: The Imam has been assassinated! Only the assassin should be condemned to death. If I die of this stab of his, kill him with one similar stroke. Do not mutilate him! I have heard the Prophet, peace be upon him, say: "Mutilate not even a rabid dog."
Edited by Zareen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

No one is doubting that the MKO is an evil cult. All the murderers and the killers (from MKO) deserve to die. I can understand why they are hated so much. I don't have any sympathy for them -whatsoever.

But you need to realize something. Do you know how many MKO terrorists Iran executed prior to the Summer of 1988? Tens of thousands between the years 1982-1987. These executions (prior to 1988) was done right under the nose of Ayatullah Montezari.

So, what was so special about the executions in the summer of 1988? This eventually got the heir-apparent of the Last Supreme Leader of Iran fired from his job. We are speaking about a specific event here.

Salam,

The internal war with MKO peaked in 1988. MKO is not longer normal criminals but enemies within the country with clear terror objectives and mode of operations. Declaration was made...You are with us or there will be no more mercy!

That what I understood actually happened. The rest are just justifications to the events. People are free to chose the versions they like and they are responsible to what they believed in.

Layman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

From an old post:

repenter, on Apr 5 2006, 06:01 AM, said:

Imam Sadiq (as) says:

Very soon Kufa will be empty of the believers. [Religious] knowledge will disappear from that region the way a snake disappears from its abode into a hole in the earth, [without leaving any trace]. Then it will reappear in the city known as Qom. That city will become the treasure of religious knowledge and excellence. From there it will spread throughout the world, thoroughly eliminating ignorance in matters of religion among the destitute, including women [who will participate in this process of learning anew about Islam].

This will happen close to the appearance of our Qa'im. In this way, God will make Qom and its inhabitants a substitute for His proof. If it does not happen so, the earth will sink, engulfing its inhabitants, and there will remain no proof. Religious knowledge will spread across nations from Qom and God's proof will have been provided to all people in such a way that there will not be a single person on earth who will not have heard about the religion and its wisdom. It will be following this event that our Qa'im will appear. God's punishment and tribulation will be ready for execution, because God exacts His revenge only when the people have rejected His proof.

[safinat al-bihar, hadith related under 'Qom]

In another place the Imam (as) says:

God made the city of Kufa and its inhabitants to serve as a proof over all other places. He will make Qom also a proof to serve over other places, and through its inhabitants He will make an argument against all those, including humans and jinns, who reject the proof of His existence. God will not disgrace and humiliate Qom and its peoples; on the contrary they will always enjoy God's grace and support.

He then went on to say:

The religion and the religious in Qom, being deficient, will not draw the attention of the people. Had it not been that they were going to serve as God's proof both the city and its inhabitants would have perished, and there would have remained no divine proof for the rest of the world. In addition, the heavens would not have remained secure and no warning would have been given to the people. Qom and its inhabitants will remain immune from all the calamities. There will come a time when Qom and its residents will become a proof for God's existence for the entire world. This will happen during the occultation of our Qa'im until he appears. If this does not happen, then the earth will engulf its inhabitants. God's angels will remove all afflictions and calamities from the people of Qom. Any oppressor who commits aggression against Qom will be destroyed by those who fight against these oppressors. Furthermore, they will be met with distressful calamity or will encounter a powerful enemy who will keep them occupied. Just as these oppressors would have forgotten remembrance of God, God will make them forget Qom and its inhabitants.

[safinat al-bihar, hadith related under 'Qom]

Imam Ali (as) predicted the following about Qom:

There will be a man from Qom who will call people towards truth. Some will respond to his call and will rally around him like pieces of iron [that are drawn towards a magnet]. Strong winds will not be able to move them from their place. They will not be tired of warfare and will be fearless. They trust in none but God. At the end the victory is for those who are godfearing.

[bihar al-anwar, Vol. 60, p. 216]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

We have the incident of how Imam Ali(as) treated his killer Ibn Muljam (LA).

- He asked rope on Ibn Muljam to be loosen, water given to him for drinking and not to torture him when inflicting punishment as prescribe by Sharia.

Imam Ali's (as) last will to his sons Imam Hasan (as) and Imam Hussain (as) after the attempt on his life by a stab from Ibn Muljam:

(bismillah)

(salam)

Thank you for the message confirming that torture is not allowed in Islam.

Also thank you for the will of Imam Ali AS:

"My advice to you is to be conscious of Allah and steadfast in your religion. Do not yearn for the world, and do not be seduced by it. Do not resent anything you have missed in it. Proclaim the truth; work for the next world. Oppose the oppressor and support the oppressed. I advise you, and all my children, my relatives, and whosoever receives this message, to be conscious of Allah, to remove your differences, and to strengthen your ties. I heard your grandfather (s) say: "Reconciliation of your differences is more worthy than all prayers and all fasting." Fear Allah in matters concerning orphans. Attend to their nutrition and do not forget their interests in the middle of yours. Fear Allah in your relations with your neighbors. Your Prophet often recommended them to you, so much so that we thought he would give them a share in inheritance. Remain attached to the Quran. Nobody should surpass you in being intent on it, or more sincere in implementing it. Fear Allah in relation to your prayers. It is the pillar of your religion. Fear Allah in relation to His House; do not abandon it as long as you live. It you should do that you would abandon your dignity. Persist in jihad in the cause of Allah, with your money, your souls, and your tongue. Maintain communication and exchange of opinion among yourselves. Beware of disunity and enmity. Do not desist from promoting good deeds and cautioning against bad ones. Should you do that,the worst among you would be your leaders, and you will call upon Allah without response. O Children of Abdul Mattaleb! Do not shed the blood of Muslims under the banner: The Imam has been assassinated! Only the assassin should be condemned to death. If I die of this stab of his, kill him with one similar stroke. Do not mutilate him! I have heard the Prophet, peace be upon him, say: "Mutilate not even a rabid dog."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

orion the more you avoid answering a simple question, the more people are seeing that you are wrong in so many ways.

i ask again. all it takes is a simple "yes" or a "no".

do you believe that ayatollah montazeri was tricked by communists?

the reason i ask should be obvious by now. since the start you have been lecturing me about "tohmat". you were then kind enough to explain to me that its only "tohmat" if you believe the thing you were stating is true, otherwise you are just stating peoples opinions.

my point is, that you have repeatedly made wild accusations - without any proof - and used these accusations to "refute" my points.

an example of this is that you said - remember without stating that these are "peoples views" - that ayatollah montazeri was tricked by communists in disguise who made up all kinds of lies, he then reported them to ayatollah khomeini who then fired him.

photi and myself have both asked you to either bring proof or explain how you came about with this belief. have you done this? no.

i find it deeply hypocritical that you are demanding all sorts of proofs from me, and alhamdulillah at least i HAVE provided proofs, yet fail to see any need to abide by your own rules when you are attacking another scholar. because that is exactly what you are doing, insulting a scholar without any proof...other than you claiming that there are booklets in iran, which you havent read, which explain the whole situation.

and i know what you are going to say now, before you even say it. "oh these arent my views they are "peoples views" im just presenting them".

do un named peoples opinions count as proof to you? yet yo demand signed confessions from me?

so i ask again.

do you believe that ayatollah montazeri was tricked by communists?

if yes, then why? prove it. if you cant prove it, then why dont you give him the benefit of the doubt and believe that he wasnt tricked?

if no, then accept that he is a reliable source, and his words, and the words of the people in his memoirs, carry weight.

either way, i win.

so, do you believe that ayatollah montazeri was tricked by communists? yes or no.

That was the reason, Imam Khomeini (r a) ordered MKO to be wipe out totally. What totally sad was the the second important man, Ayatollah Montazeri did not realized this... I wish that MDM would put the dismissal letter from Imam Khomeini to Ayatollah Montezari. Until today MDM has not done it yet.

why would i? scroll back through this thread brother its already been posted. what exactly are you hoping to show anyway?

Salam,

The internal war with MKO peaked in 1988. MKO is not longer normal criminals but enemies within the country with clear terror objectives and mode of operations. Declaration was made...You are with us or there will be no more mercy!

That what I understood actually happened. The rest are just justifications to the events. People are free to chose the versions they like and they are responsible to what they believed in.

Layman

brother layman, we are not defending the MKO killers etc. our point the whole way along is that not all were equally guilty, and not all deserved to die, and none of them were given a fair chance anyway, and if that wasnt enough there were non MKO prisoners mixed up who were killed unfairly. since ayatollah khomeini ordered it, and set up the death comissions, i believe he is responsible for the innocent deaths, and that this is an unacceptable action #1 in my list of them.

this is not a thread defending the MKO. please stop twisting what i am saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

an example of this is that you said - remember without stating that these are "peoples views" - that ayatollah montazeri was tricked by communists in disguise who made up all kinds of lies, he then reported them to ayatollah khomeini who then fired him.

Perhaps you need to eat some carrots to improve your vision, and almonds to increase your memory.

My link

My link

either way, i win.

Maybe this thread is just a game for you in which one has to win or loose.

:unsure:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

(salam)

As I said, if an inmate was mistreated, the person(s) who did it were put on trial and punished.

(salam)

This is precisely what the borther is saying did not happened, with some people in positions of authority considering "roughing people up"

to be acceptable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

Perhaps you need to eat some carrots to improve your vision, and almonds to increase your memory.

My link

My link

Maybe this thread is just a game for you in which one has to win or loose.

:unsure:

[sarcasm]oh wow, you reposting the same things again changes EVERYTHING. i retract all previous statements. [/sarcasm]

so do you believe that ayatollah montazeri was tricked by communists in disguise? im sure you can grace me with a yes or a no.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

This is precisely what the borther is saying did not happened, with some people in positions of authority considering "roughing people up"

to be acceptable.

(bismillah)

(salam)

MDM and Orion are discussing 1988 time of turmoil, prior to the death of Imam Khomeini RA. My reply was to Amir-Husayn who was talking about torture now, during the present day time period:

continues to use systematic beatings and torture of prisoners as well as forced confessions

Sorry to confuse you. Islam does not allow torture and beatings. I don't believe that the IRI has a policy to do non-Islamic acts. If anyone commits such an act today, he will be put on trial and punished. There was a prison that was closed during the last year due to a few people who mistreated prisoners.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[sarcasm]oh wow, you reposting the same things again changes EVERYTHING. i retract all previous statements. [/sarcasm]

so do you believe that ayatollah montazeri was tricked by communists in disguise? im sure you can grace me with a yes or a no.

ÓóáóÇãðÇ Peace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam Aleykom

Bismillah ar Rahman ar Raheem

I don't understand people who claim to submit to the will of Allah SWT but fail to pledge allagiance to Imam Khamenei. The link between Imam Khamenei and Allah SWT is the most direct link that any normal human on earth has. Imam Khomeini RA was ordered by Imam e Zaman AJF to begin the government from which The Imam AJF would rule and he ordered Imam Khomeini RA to establish himself as velayat e faqi. Before he passed on, he was ordered by Imam e Zaman AJF to express his preference for Imam Khamenei because it is Allah's will.

This is a fact. If you do not agree with this, then ask yourself who you are and why you even bother trying to follow the path of the Ahlol Bayt AS. If you still feel lost, beg Allah SWT to have none other then the Imam e Zaman AJF guide you himself. If this prayer comes genuinely from the botttom of your heart with complete sincerity, you will eventually understand that what I stated above as fact is indeed fact. If the sincerity is not there however, you are still really seeking other than Allah SWT and will keep running around in circles until you start to seek only Allah SWT or until you die, whichever comes first. I pray that Inshallah, you all genuinely seek truth before you die because if you do not know truth before you die, you will remain in that state for eternity. It i sas simple as that, the truth is not on a message board, you do not need to look further than your own heart to find it.

Allah o Akbar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam Aleykom

Bismillah ar Rahman ar Raheem

I don't understand people who claim to submit to the will of Allah SWT but fail to pledge allagiance to Imam Khamenei.  The link between Imam Khamenei and Allah SWT is the most direct link that any normal human on earth has. Imam Khomeini RA was ordered by Imam e Zaman AJF to begin the government from which The Imam AJF would rule and he ordered Imam Khomeini RA to establish himself as velayat e faqi. Before he passed on, he was ordered by Imam e Zaman AJF to express his preference for Imam Khamenei because it is Allah's will.

This is a fact. If you do not agree with this, then ask yourself who you are and why you even bother trying to follow the path of the Ahlol Bayt AS. If you still feel lost, beg Allah SWT to have none other then the Imam e Zaman AJF guide you himself. If this prayer comes genuinely from the botttom of your heart with complete sincerity, you will eventually understand that what I stated above as fact is indeed fact. If the sincerity is not there however, you are still really seeking other than Allah SWT and will keep running around in circles until you start to seek only Allah SWT or until you die, whichever comes first. I pray that Inshallah, you all genuinely seek truth before you die because if you do not know truth before you die, you will remain in that state for eternity. It i sas simple as that, the truth is not on a message board, you do not need to look further than your own heart to find it.

Allah o Akbar

Alaykom salam brother, please forgive me for saying so but you are naive.  Your view is rigid, and though I don't doubt your sincerity, attitudes such as this are counter-productive to your cause.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't understand people who claim to submit to the will of Allah SWT but fail to pledge allagiance to Imam Khamenei. The link between Imam Khamenei and Allah SWT is the most direct link that any normal human on earth has. Imam Khomeini RA was ordered by Imam e Zaman AJF to begin the government from which The Imam AJF would rule and he ordered Imam Khomeini RA to establish himself as velayat e faqi. Before he passed on, he was ordered by Imam e Zaman AJF to express his preference for Imam Khamenei because it is Allah's will.

(bismillah)

Welcome to shiachat.

It is our general belief that Imam al-Asr (ATF) guides his followers whenever needed including the pious scholars. So it is possible that Imam Khomeini (AR) was also guided by the Imam (ATF). Similarly, Allah also guides whomever He Wishes.

But Akhi, such loose statements like yours (underlined by me) give ammunition to the enemies of Islam to misinterpret and use it against IRI. What you have said may be your conviction but unless it is substantiated with proof it has no value. In fact it is harmful. I recommend either you explain your views or bring proof of such "direct links" and "direct orders" if you have any.

WS

Edited by Orion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(salam)

I don't understand people who claim to submit to the will of Allah SWT but fail to pledge allagiance to Imam Khamenei. The link between Imam Khamenei and Allah SWT is the most direct link that any normal human on earth has. Imam Khomeini RA was ordered by Imam e Zaman AJF to begin the government from which The Imam AJF would rule and he ordered Imam Khomeini RA to establish himself as velayat e faqi. Before he passed on, he was ordered by Imam e Zaman AJF to express his preference for Imam Khamenei because it is Allah's will.

Can you please provide some evidence of this “direct-link” between Imam al Hujjah (may God hasten his appearance), Allah swt and Ayatullah Khomeini?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you please provide some evidence of this "direct-link" between Imam al Hujjah (may God hasten his appearance), Allah swt and Ayatullah Khomeini?

(bismillah)

There are several reports of many of our pious scholars being guided by the Imam al Hujjah (ATF) like Allama Bahrul Uloom (AR) , Muqaddas Ardebeli (AR), Sheikh Murtaza Ansari (AR), Allamah Hilli (AR) and others.

See:

Special Favors of Imam-e-Zamana (ATF)

Possibility of Meeting with Imam Mahdi (ATF) in Major Occultation

-----

Similarly reports have surfaced about Imam Khomeini (AR) being guided by Imam al-Asr (ATF). For example here is a report:

One day I was at the house of Agha Fadhl Lankarani, one of the teachers of the Islamic Seminary in Qom. He narrated from one of his friends that:

"We were with Imam Khomeini in the holy city of Najaf and the conversation turned to Iran. I said: "What is your command about removing the Shah from Iran? One cannot remove a tenant from his house, and you want to want to remove the Shah of the nation?"

Imam Khomeini sat silent. I thought maybe he hadn't heard me. I repeated my words. Imam Khomeini got upset and said: "So-and-so! What are you saying? Would Hazrat Baqiyatullah Imam Mahdi (aj) tell me anything wrong? The Shah must go."

Hujjatul Islam Kausari

(ref: Paa be Paaye Aaftaab, Vol 4, Pg. 125, Rays of the Sun, section 9)

Edited by Orion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The link between Imam Khamenei and Allah SWT is the most direct link that any normal human on earth has. Imam Khomeini RA was ordered by Imam e Zaman AJF to begin the government from which The Imam AJF would rule and he ordered Imam Khomeini RA to establish himself as velayat e faqi. Before he passed on, he was ordered by Imam e Zaman AJF to express his preference for Imam Khamenei because it is Allah's will.

This is a fact. If you do not agree with this, then ask yourself who you are and why you even bother trying to follow the path of the Ahlol Bayt AS. If you still feel lost, beg Allah SWT to have none other then the Imam e Zaman AJF guide you himself.

Welcome to the Catholicization of Shia Islam. It means the current Shia papal system in Iran has done well to have followers like you.

I don't understand people who claim to submit to the will of Allah SWT but fail to pledge allagiance to Imam Khamenei.

I'm sure you don't understand, brother. I'm sure you don't. Don't blame you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Welcome to the Catholicization of Shia Islam. It means the current Shia papal system in Iran has done well to have followers like you.

I'm sure you don't understand, brother. I'm sure you don't. Don't blame you.

See brother SayedAliReza how these people use your post to attack Iran and disrespect scholars calling it a "papal system" comparing them with Catholic Christians and their Pope. (astaghfarAllah). This is what I was talking about.

áøóÚúäóÉõ Çááøåö Úóáóì ÇáúßóÇÐöÈöíäó (Quran 3:61)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salam Aleykom

Bismillah ar Rahman ar Raheem

I don't understand people who claim to submit to the will of Allah SWT but fail to pledge allagiance to Imam Khamenei. The link between Imam Khamenei and Allah SWT is the most direct link that any normal human on earth has. Imam Khomeini RA was ordered by Imam e Zaman AJF to begin the government from which The Imam AJF would rule and he ordered Imam Khomeini RA to establish himself as velayat e faqi. Before he passed on, he was ordered by Imam e Zaman AJF to express his preference for Imam Khamenei because it is Allah's will.

This is a fact. If you do not agree with this, then ask yourself who you are and why you even bother trying to follow the path of the Ahlol Bayt AS. If you still feel lost, beg Allah SWT to have none other then the Imam e Zaman AJF guide you himself. If this prayer comes genuinely from the botttom of your heart with complete sincerity, you will eventually understand that what I stated above as fact is indeed fact. If the sincerity is not there however, you are still really seeking other than Allah SWT and will keep running around in circles until you start to seek only Allah SWT or until you die, whichever comes first. I pray that Inshallah, you all genuinely seek truth before you die because if you do not know truth before you die, you will remain in that state for eternity. It i sas simple as that, the truth is not on a message board, you do not need to look further than your own heart to find it.

Allah o Akbar

Wow, I'm speechless. I think shiachat has hit a new low.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

Wow, I'm speechless. I think shiachat has hit a new low.

A fresh new member "SayedAliReza", writing his first post ever, lands in this thread. Says things in such a way that provide opportunity to people like Marbles to attack scholars. All this happening at a time, when MDM is unable to provide credible witnesses to his accusations.

Looks suspicious to me!

:unsure:

Edited by Orion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See brother SayedAliReza how these people use your post to attack Iran and disrespect scholars calling it a "papal system" comparing them with Catholic Christians and their Pope. (astaghfarAllah). This is what I was talking about.

لَّعْنَةُ اللّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ (Quran 3:61)

If the statement of Brother Marbles was stated in different way (in most good mannered way) but the same idea remain, will you see it as disrespecting scholars?

Edited by Zufa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the statement of Brother Marbles was stated in different way (in most good mannered way) but the same idea remain, will you see it as disrespecting scholars?

There is no good mannered way for such an idea. What would he do next, compare Shia Marja and scholars with the Hindu priests?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salamun alaikum

why should any form of analysis or criticism be always taken as some kind of an insult or disrespect to anyone, if something is very obviously seen as critical then there will be some comments on it.

Think in the other way that such criticism or comments can change the thing in question for good.

Walaikum assalam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salamun alaikum

why should any form of analysis or criticism be always taken as some kind of an insult or disrespect to anyone, if something is very obviously seen as critical then there will be some comments on it.

Think in the other way that such criticism or comments can change the thing in question for good.

To express their hate, they always add an element of insult to their criticism. Remove this insult element and I have no problem with criticism.

Edited by Orion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See brother SayedAliReza how these people use your post to attack Iran and disrespect scholars calling it a "papal system" comparing them with Catholic Christians and their Pope. (astaghfarAllah). This is what I was talking about.

لَّعْنَةُ اللّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ (Quran 3:61)

Bro, it means making comparisons between two things with similar features to make a point. This is a basic rule of balaghat.. If everything is to be taken as an "insult" I am sure you can't logically utter a single word of criticism to the system in place.

The Shia clerical hierarchy in Iranian politics, in some ways, does resemble Catholic system, with Wali al-Faqih, the Imam, the Leader, occupying the same position of importance as Catholic Pope. This is further strengthened by the attitude of the followers toward this system. Go against the subset of WF, the Imam, and you go against the whole set of Quran and Sunnah.

Edited by Marbles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salamun alaikum

To express their hate, they always add an element of insult to their criticism.

Why should we think that there is always hate when someone says something. I think this is due to the fact that there should just be no criticism or analysis, but this results in seeing each and every comment filled with hate even though it may have something valid in it

There is always room for improvement in anything we do and complacency should be avoided

At times we have to accept few things even if admitting it may lower us in our stand or positions, while the related valid point should be the winner.

There are several reports of many of our pious scholars being guided by the Imam al Hujjah (ATF) like Allama Bahrul Uloom (AR) , Muqaddas Ardebeli (AR), Sheikh Murtaza Ansari (AR), Allamah Hilli (AR) and others.

I think you understand that there is a big difference in getting guidance from the Imam(ATF) and by saying that there is a direct link between Allah(SWT) and Ayat Khamenei

Walaikum assalam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

(bismillah)

Bro, it means making comparisons between two things with similar features to make a point. This is a basic rule of balaghat.. If everything is to be taken as an "insult" I am sure you can't logically utter a single word of criticism to the system in place.

Your comments are insulting and totally unnecessary. There is no "Shia papal system in Iran". Balaghat does not mean one has to be disrespectful or insulting.

The Shia clerical hierarchy in Iranian politics, in some ways, does resemble Catholic system, with Wali al-Faqih, the Imam, the Leader, occupying the same position of importance as Catholic Pope. This is further strengthened by the attitude of the followers toward this system. Go against the subset of WF, the Imam, and you go against the whole set of Quran and Sunnah.

There is no Shia papal system. There is no hierarchy ranking with one faqih higher than another or endowing one with more authority than another. The position and authority of WF is limited to the government, the administration of the country and general affairs of the Ummah. He has no control over individual fiqhi issues. Also when we talk about authority we are not speaking of status, but rather of the function. Thus we cannot say that WF has more status than any of the other Marja inside Iran or outside. All of them are considered the general representatives of our Imam (ATF). InshaAllah, they are all doing something for the good of Shia community. Some like Ayatullah Khamenei are running the Islamic government in Iran, some like Ayatullah Sistani directing Shias in Iraq, some acting as Judges in courts and some like Ayatullah Makarim Shirazi and Ayatullah Waheed Khorasani teaching, writing books doing research in Fiqhi issues. You can call it distribution of work.

Edited by Orion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no good mannered way for such an idea. What would he do next, compare Shia Marja and scholars with the Hindu priests?

Actually there is. It is exactly to remove the insult element without removing the critics or analysis.

Edited by Zufa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you understand that there is a big difference in getting guidance from the Imam(ATF) and by saying that there is a direct link between Allah(SWT) and Ayat Khamenei

See my post on previous page. I did question his wordings. But I did it without disrespecting or insulting him or anyone else.

Read my post: Click here

But Marbles added the element of insult. That is what is wrong.

WS

Actually there is. It is exactly to remove the insult element without removing the critics or analysis.

Can you teach Marbles and MDM to just do that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can you teach Marbles and MDM to just do that?

Now you have insulted Me, Marbles and MDM :lol: No i can't do that. Also i don't see any problem with Marbles statement.

Edited by Zufa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salamun a laikum

See my post on previous page. I did question his wordings. But I did it without disrespecting or insulting him or anyone else.

Read my post: Click here

But Marbles added the element of insult. That is what is wrong.

WS

Actually I was referring to your last post in previous page in reply to Sister Zareen's question about direct link, for which you narrated an incident to prove some link

And maybe since you regard the IRI govt to be divine so you are thinking that any comparison to it with a worldly entity is incorrect.

Also I would like you to see the IRI govt and the scholars in different frames and not mix them up to say that its an insult to scholars

walaikum assalam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salamun a laikum

Actually I was referring to your last post in previous page in reply to Sister Zareen's question about direct link, for which you narrated an incident to prove some link

And maybe since you regard the IRI govt to be divine so you are thinking that any comparison to it with a worldly entity is incorrect.

Also I would like you to see the IRI govt and the scholars in different frames and not mix them up to say that its an insult to scholars

walaikum assalam

What do you mean by "divine"?

If you mean the IRI government was established following divine commandments written in Quran and Sunnah or that they are implementing divine laws (sharia), or that they may be part of Allah's "divine plan" (like everything else is) yes, you can call them "divine" in that respect, but not otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Salamun alaikum

What do you mean by "divine"?

If you mean the IRI government was established following divine commandments written in Quran and Sunnah or that they are implementing divine laws (sharia), or that they may be part of Allah's "divine plan" (like everything else is) yes, you can call them "divine" in that respect, but not otherwise.

Divine means chosen directly by Allah(SWT).

Again, by saying that the IRI govt was established based on Quran & Sunnah is one thing but actually implementing or following them diligently is another

It may not look otherwise as you said above but projecting it in such a way does.

Walaikum assalam

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...