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Abbas.

Are There Any Unacceptable Actions....

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Well at least MILLIONS of people inside Iran are united:

(bismillah)

Akhi, thanks for the video links.

There are many who are jealous of their popularity and some feel insecure by the strength and authority of Marjeyah.

And this is one big reason they oppose and disrespect them.

WS

Edited by Orion

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(bismillah)

Akhi, thanks for the video links.

There are many who are jealous of their popularity and some feel insecure by the strength and authority of Marjeyah.

And this is one big reason they oppose and disrespect them.

WS

Yeah bro, that was on my mind.

There is NO DOUBT, some people are JEALOUS. And yes some scholars as well.

There is NO SCHOLAR IN MODERN HISTORY WHO HAS DONE WHAT IMAM KHOMEINI(RAH) HAS DONE. And his legacy lives on...

7 million people welcomed him when he returned from exile in 1979... and after 10 years of "MASS MURDERS" and "OPPRESSION" when he passed away in 1989... 12 MILLION people attended his funeral!

How did he get so much supporters by killing people, and being an oppressor.

Imam Khomeini(rah) changed my life.

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Yeah bro, that was on my mind.

There is NO DOUBT, some people are JEALOUS. And yes some scholars as well.

There is NO SCHOLAR IN MODERN HISTORY WHO HAS DONE WHAT IMAM KHOMEINI(RAH) HAS DONE. And his legacy lives on...

7 million people welcomed him when he returned from exile in 1979... and after 10 years of "MASS MURDERS" and "OPPRESSION" when he passed away in 1989... 12 MILLION people attended his funeral!

How did he get so much supporters by killing people, and being an oppressor.

Imam Khomeini(rah) changed my life.

(salam)

I can respect that :)

But I disagree that people "attack" him out of jealousy (well... I mean those that are examining academically what went down with the commission). I have my respects for him for rallying the masses in such an inspirational manner, but at the same time I want to know exactly what went on surrounding the issues he is continuously criticized for. Does that make me jealous? :wacko: Not one bit bro...

Hope I got my point across.

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(salam)

I can respect that :)

But I disagree that people "attack" him out of jealousy (well... I mean those that are examining academically what went down with the commission). I have my respects for him for rallying the masses in such an inspirational manner, but at the same time I want to know exactly what went on surrounding the issues he is continuously criticized for. Does that make me jealous? :wacko: Not one bit bro...

Hope I got my point across.

(bismillah)

(salam)

you have a good point my bro

and for all their misunderstanding and criss crossing of the true islamic logic wiring

mdm, marbles et all are my bros

our logic is very much influenced by western influence

but if you think long and hard bro

how can a 10th class student if that examine a PHD thesis academically

we can say to better our understanding

and anything else is giving ourselves more importance than we deserve

this is the sowing of the wrong seed in us

finally there are enough faqihs to condemn the actions if they were really wrong

this is the first step in approaching the understanding of the issues involved

so the actions are not wrong, it is our understanding which lacks

(wasalam)

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yeah...you guys realise abu bakr stole the caiphate at saqifa cos pretty much all the ummah supported him dont you? is that a sign of him being right? or his followers being on the right path?

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(salam)

"how can a 10th class student if that examine a PHD thesis academically"

I is very unfortunate that the supports of WF seem to engage in a continual effort to in one way or another insult those who disagree wit them. Such a position demeans them and their substantive arguments when presented.

What makes this statement even sadder is that we are referring to historical events in this thread, and not some form of penetrable theory of quantum mechanics.

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(salam)

"how can a 10th class student if that examine a PHD thesis academically"

I is very unfortunate that the supports of WF seem to engage in a continual effort to in one way or another insult those who disagree wit them. Such a position demeans them and their substantive arguments when presented.

What makes this statement even sadder is that we are referring to historical events in this thread, and not some form of penetrable theory of quantum mechanics.

Who knows the Islamic sharia more, you and MDM, or the several dozen ulema that spent their entire lives in the hawza?

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(salam)

"how can a 10th class student if that examine a PHD thesis academically"

I is very unfortunate that the supports of WF seem to engage in a continual effort to in one way or another insult those who disagree wit them. Such a position demeans them and their substantive arguments when presented.

What makes this statement even sadder is that we are referring to historical events in this thread, and not some form of penetrable theory of quantum mechanics.

(bismillah)

(salam)

my apologies if you understood it wrongly

remember my line on understanding

so this is not to stifle discussion to better our understanding

it is just so that we try to understand with the decorum(adab) of learning

(wasalam)

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Who knows the Islamic sharia more, you and MDM, or the several dozen ulema that spent their entire lives in the hawza?

(salam)

What is the point of this post? It introduces no new information nor does it analyze information already present. It is at best a vapid ad hominem attack. Such a statement is beneath you, and has nothing to do with the point I made regarding this being a discussion of historical events.

I make no claim to know or have access to the same information that scholars who have spent their lives studying Islam and its branches of knowledge. I do lay claim to the right to ask questions, exercise my intellect which lead me to Islam and the ahl-ul-bayt (as), and to hold opinions the based on exercise of my intellect and knowledge I have.

Throughout this thread, and in others, I change my position based on the use of my intellect as applied to the information and analyze others provide. If you actual wish to make a contribution, then present some information, provide some analyze. Leave your personal attacks behind.

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Who knows the Islamic sharia more, you and MDM, or the several dozen ulema that spent their entire lives in the hawza?

Once more:

Argumentum ad verecundiam. Come back when you have an argument which is above the level of a schoolboy.

Really...

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(salam)

What is the point of this post? It introduces no new information nor does it analyze information already present. It is at best a vapid ad hominem attack. Such a statement is beneath you, and has nothing to do with the point I made regarding this being a discussion of historical events.

I make no claim to know or have access to the same information that scholars who have spent their lives studying Islam and its branches of knowledge. I do lay claim to the right to ask questions, exercise my intellect which lead me to Islam and the ahl-ul-bayt (as), and to hold opinions the based on exercise of my intellect and knowledge I have.

Throughout this thread, and in others, I change my position based on the use of my intellect as applied to the information and analyze others provide. If you actual wish to make a contribution, then present some information, provide some analyze. Leave your personal attacks behind.

I dont get what part of my statement you found to be a ''personal attack'', as the intention was surely not such. The whole point of this thread is, about the so called ''unacceptable actions'' of Imam Khomein and Imam Khamenei. Most of this is based on whether innocent people were executed by their orders. Keep in mind, the assembly of experts, is an impartially elected body consisting of the top ulemas, that oversee the activities of the wali e faqih. Hence, if such mass murder of innocent people was taking place, there would be mass dissent among them. Rather, you will just find the odd naive scholar who was dismissed by Imam Khomeini beforehand, complaining about it. The point is, either all these top ulemas, who have been impartially elected, and are there to safeguard the IRI, turned corrupt and shown a blind eye to these events, or you guys have fallen for the propaganda of the enemies of Islam.

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I dont get what part of my statement you found to be a ''personal attack'', as the intention was surely not such. The whole point of this thread is, about the so called ''unacceptable actions'' of Imam Khomein and Imam Khamenei. Most of this is based on whether innocent people were executed by their orders. Keep in mind, the assembly of experts, is an impartially elected body consisting of the top ulemas, that oversee the activities of the wali e faqih. Hence, if such mass murder of innocent people was taking place, there would be mass dissent among them. Rather, you will just find the odd naive scholar who was dismissed by Imam Khomeini beforehand, complaining about it. The point is, either all these top ulemas, who have been impartially elected, and are there to safeguard the IRI, turned corrupt and shown a blind eye to these events, or you guys have fallen for the propaganda of the enemies of Islam.

(bismillah)

Plus there are many top ranking Marjas sitting outside Iran. If they are aware of these "mass murders" and have enough Islamic evidence as proof, why dont they speak out against this oppression. Mind you over 20 years have passed and they have not spoken a word against this alleged "oppression". From time to time they issue statements on other issues, why are they silent on this one?

And if all these "Naib e Imams" stay silent about this, are MDM and Co. more informed or concerned about these issues than the Marjas themselves?

:unsure:

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(bismillah)

And if all these "Naib e Imams" stay silent about this, are MDM and Co. more informed or concerned about these issues than the Marjas themselves?

:unsure:

Salam,

Their tohmat against Marhum Imam Khomeini (R A) on the mass murder is just a cover up...it is more than that. If possible they want to disqualify Imam Khomeini / Imam Khamenei leaderships on any possible issue...and the best would be that Imam Khomeini / Imam Khamenei went against Imams or remembrance of Imams (in particular Imam Hussain).

Layman

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Salam,

Their tohmat against Marhum Imam Khomeini (R A) on the mass murder is just a cover up...it is more than that. If possible they want to disqualify Imam Khomeini / Imam Khamenei leaderships on any possible issue...and the best would be that Imam Khomeini / Imam Khamenei went against Imams or remembrance of Imams (in particular Imam Hussain).

Layman

(bismillah)

As they say, IRI is just a trailer, the best is yet to come!

I am pretty sure some people will question the authority of Imam al-Asr (ATF) himself, when he comes.

May Allah hasten his (ATF) return.

Ameen.

WS

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(bismillah)

Plus there are many top ranking Marjas sitting outside Iran. If they are aware of these "mass murders" and have enough Islamic evidence as proof, why dont they speak out against this oppression. Mind you over 20 years have passed and they have not spoken a word against this alleged "oppression". From time to time they issue statements on other issues, why are they silent on this one?

And if all these "Naib e Imams" stay silent about this, are MDM and Co. more informed or concerned about these issues than the Marjas themselves?

:unsure:

Exactly bro. And on the contrary, here is what Ayatollah Sistani (h) has said about the Islamic Republic.

Baghdad, April 8, IRNA –

Grand Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Sistani said here Wednesday, “Islamic Republic of Iran is a political system belonging not only to Iranians, but also to entire Shi’as, and it is hope center for entire world Muslims.”

IRNA Monitoring Service quotes the Iranian ‘Fash News’ as reporting that the present personalities at a meeting between the grand ayatollah and visiting Ayatollah Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani said that he emphasized over the need for unanimously moing under the wise leadership of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Seyyed Ali Khameneie.

Ayatollah Sistani while appreciating the blessing of the existence of the Islamic Republic, expressed concern over the emergence of moves that might mean disunity and discord.

According to the report, Ayatollah Rafsanjani then presented explanations regarding the issues that have caused concerns for the grand ayatollah, but the two personalities continued their meeting privately and there is no report on it.

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/index.php?/topic/234962914-ayatullah-sistani-follow-imam-khamenei-ha/

Concerning the western countries trouble making for Iran in its peaceful nuclear energy program, Ayatollah Sistani's envoy said, " the arrogant powers do not want a powerful and free Iran to emerge as a pattern for the whole Islamic world.

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strange, maula ali (as) never attempted to over throw the first three.

this is obvious proof that he supported them and they were a really great bunch of guys.

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Wow, just wow. Who is comparing an infallible to a fallible now? You guys usually moan about it, when any parallel is drawn between the actions of our Imams (A) and of our scholars. But when it suits your argument, you are ready to flip-flop on it.

With the case of Imam Ali (as), Islam was at its early stages, and the Prophet (Saws) specifically asked him to be patient. As far as I know, none of the our scholars are under any such obligations.

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i was actually likening ayatollah khomeini to abu bakr. as if i would compare him to maula ali (as).

abu bakr was popular

ayatollah khomeini was popular

abu bakr ran the government

ayatollah khomeini ran the government

abu bakr was responsible for injustice

ayatollah khomeini was responsible for injustice

abu bakr repressed any voices raised against him

ayatollah khomeini repressed any voices raised against him.

so, does imam alis silence against abu bakr mean he supported him?

(bismillah)

لَّعْنَةُ اللّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ "....God's curse upon those who are telling a lie". (Quran 3:61)

.

Edited by Orion

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^^ If Ayatollah Khomeini ® is 'Abu Bakr', who plays the role of Imam Ali (A)?

jesus freaking christ, listen to me carefully.

(1) stop making claims that i said something i didnt which you "prove" to be wrong. me saying the judgement of a masum is not equal to ayatollah khomeinis death fatwa is not the same as me saying you can never compare anything a masum ever did to anything a non masum did as you are implying.

(2) people who remain silent to avoid further suffering of shias, considering what happened to the likes of ayatollah muhammad baqir shirazi, cannot be used as proof of tgeir support

(3) imam ali cannot be compared. however theres a direct line between abu bakrs actions and ayatollah khomeinis. no one can ever be good enough to be called a likeness to an imam, but those mentioned in the previous point seem to be in a similar situation.

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theres a direct line between abu bakrs actions and ayatollah khomeinis.

(bismillah)

لَّعْنَةُ اللّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ

"....God's curse upon those who are telling a lie". (Quran 3:61)

.

Edited by Orion

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jesus freaking christ, listen to me carefully.

Pay more attention on what you type.

Orion: Why havent any of our top marjas spoken against these so called ''mass murders''?

Mallang: Imam Ali never attempted to over throw the first 3

Conclusion: The silence of Imam Ali is likened to the 'apparent' silence of the marjas.

But oh no!! but its the same guy who gets pmsy whenever you draw a parallel between any infallible Imam and a fallible scholar.

I dont know how the ''death fatwa'' or anything else came into this. As I said above, pay more attention when you type.

Edited by shiasoldier786

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^If I may note, Imam Ali (as) stood silent on direct orders from the Prophet (pbuh)

Hadith states that he should not rebel unless he has 40 followers.

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i was actually likening ayatollah khomeini to abu bakr. as if i would compare him to maula ali (as).

abu bakr was popular

ayatollah khomeini was popular

abu bakr ran the government

ayatollah khomeini ran the government

abu bakr was responsible for injustice

ayatollah khomeini was responsible for injustice

abu bakr repressed any voices raised against him

ayatollah khomeini repressed any voices raised against him.

so, does imam alis silence against abu bakr mean he supported him?

Marhum Ayatullah Khomeini wrote in his wills and that is his belief:

"In The Name of God The Compassionate, the Merciful

The Messenger of God has said, "Verily I am leaving with you the two most valuable and weighty objects: the Book of God and my household (the Thaqalain). Indeed these two shall not part with each other until they join up with me by the pond" (of Kowthar in Paradise on the Day of Judgement).

(The Prophetic Tradition of Thaqalain)

To Allah belongs all praise. Glorified is Thy Name, O God, bless Muhammed and his household who are manifestations of Your Beauty and Magnanimity and the secret treasures of Your Book, the Book that crystallises Your Oneness in all Your Names and Divine Attributes, including the one that none but Yourself knows. And let there be curse on those who oppressed the Prophet (SAW) and his household, those that belonged to the wretched pedigree.

At the outset to this prologue, it appears proper to briefly comment on the two most exalted and momentous objects of trust (The Thaqalain) , not on their transcendental, spiritual, or mystical aspects, an area into which pens such as mine are unable to venture as it is a domain of molk, the cognition of which covers all circles of beings, from earth to heaven (Malakoot-e-Aala) ... (4) and beyond to His Divine presence (Lahoot) ...(5) including circles that lie beyond the comprehension of our intellects. Nor do I mean to comment on that which has befallen humanity due to its negligence of the true nature and status of the greater trust (theql-e-akbar ...(6) = The Holy Quran) and that of the great trust (theql-e-kabir = The Household of the Prophet (SAW)), which is greater than anything except the great trust which is great in the absolute (akbar-e-mutlaq). Also I do not intend to recount here all that has befallen these two most valuable divine trusts (The Thaqalain) by the enemies of God and the treacherous followers of the tyrants = (Taghootian) as these are too many for me to enumerate, given my limited knowledge and time. ..."

There is no similarity in comparison between both of them... you just made it up and to satisfy your own self!

Sorry we don't buy your argument.

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There is no similarity in comparison between both of them... you just made it up and to satisfy your own self!

Sorry we don't buy your argument.

there are plenty of similarities, but i wont persue that particular point any further.

peace.

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MDM

With the permission of Bro Inshallah it is good time now to move on to issue #2.

1. The killings of political dissenters in '88. Discussed and done with.

2. ____?

Edited by Marbles

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MDM

With the permission of Bro Inshallah it is good time now to move on to issue #2.

1. The killings of political dissenters in '88. Discussed and done with.

2. ____?

apologies for not being online today....the white part of my eye was scrached by my dajjal of a cat last night so been having that seen to. im a bit suprised that bro inshaAllah has not posted yet; i requested he judge both sides arguments and put some form of fair closure one way or another on this particular point. if he hasnt replied by, say, wednesday? ill move on to point 2.

point 2 is going to be another great one inshallah

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brother faris you would not BELIEVE how little i care about the green movement or the bowel movement or anything like that. i am not a green or even an iranian. however i AM a shia who is getting WF rammed down his throat at every opportunity, so investigated whether they are worth such astonishing praise and adoration.

i was asked to explain why i do not respect ayatollahs khomeini and khamenei, so this is what i am doing. we are discussing the validity of my stance and to be honest im doing a pretty good job so far. theres no agenda and i am not a western zionist agent out to destroy the glorious revolution.

Bismillah,

After reading through the whole thread...the above is most interesting post for me in tyring understanding MDM..

Layman

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Quote

Systematic Use of Torture

Doc. No. 142

Letter to Imam Khomeini, dated October 8, 1986

Do you know that crimes are being committed in the prisons of the Islamic Republic in the name of Islam the like of which was never seen in the Shah’s evil regime? Do you know that a large number of prisoners have been killed under torture by their interrogators? Do you know that in Mashad prison, some 25 girls had to have their ovaries or uterus removed as a result of what had been done to them, and because there were no physicians and medical care?

Do you know that in Shiraz prison, a girl who was fasting in the month of Ramadan was executed on petty charges immediately after breaking her fast?

Do you know that in some prisons of the Islamic Republic young 33 girls are being raped by force?

Do you know that interrogators foulmouth the girls and us disgusting words to insult them while interrogating them? Do you know that as a result of unruly torture, many prisoners have become deaf or paralyzed or afflicted with chronic diseases? And there is no one to listen to their complaints?

Do you know that in some prisons, prisoners have even been banned from performing their Muslim rites? Do you know that in some prisons prisoners are not allowed to see daylight, not for one or two days, but for months on end? Do you know that even once a prisoner is tried and receives a sentence, he is beaten and abused? No doubt Your Eminence would be told that these are lies and Montazeri is naive.

But let me also report to Your Eminence, if you permit me, what is happening outside prisons: Do you know that people, while traveling in buses and taxis and waiting in queues for chickens, eggs, vegetable oil and beef or waiting in queues at petrol stations, are openly cursing the officials of the Islamic Republic, including, I regret to say, yourself? Do you know that the (Shiite) clergy and clergymen are reviled by the people?

Do you know that even those who come to Friday prayers are mostly disenchanted and curse the authorities? Do you know that bribery is rampant everywhere in government offices, ministries, and unfortunately in some prosecutors’ offices and courts?

Do you know that huge embezzlements of government funds are hushed up with some bribes, a telephone call, or a recommendation, while petty thieves are prosecuted? Do you know that there have been so many robberies and thefts and plundering by persons in the uniforms of Revolutionary Guards and Komiteh agents that people feel no security for their lives and properties?

Do you know that more than two million Iranians are living in exile and many women have resorted to prostitution and discredited Iran and Iranians in the eyes of foreigners? Do you know that poverty and high costs of living are putting intolerable pressures on the people? While the average income and salaries are the same as they were before, prices have jumped ten to twenty times higher. How can the poor live in such conditions? Do you know that contrary to what we studied in Islamic jurisprudence, in the Islamic Republic a Muslim’s right to life is not respected, nor is his property...

Do you know that most good judges have become disillusioned and have resigned, leaving behind corrupt or weak individuals as judges?

Do you know that... everyday about a million Iranians go to doctors and pharmacies and hospitals and clinics, but the vast majority of them return unsatisfied and disenchanted? This is not because of the war, but because of mismanagement and lack of planning...

Do you know that drug addiction is rampant in this country, and that executions, prisons, island concentration camps, etc., are no longer effective?...

In conclusion, it is my view that the country is on a downward spiral and the majority of the people are disenchanted...

For eight years, we have been ruling the country through violence, numerous executions, and inappropriate confiscation, and we have not got anywhere.

I just wanted to make comments on the statement on "BOLD".

I happened to travel in buses and taxis and waiting in queues for chickens, eggs, vegetable oil and beef or waiting in queues at petrol stations in IRan...and I have heard there were people who were openly cursing the officials of the Islamic Republic... AND the most important thing I asked them why they cursed?

I still remembered while waiting with coupon to buy eggs, there were people who were cursing (usually women)...and I asked the reasons...this was one of the answers "During the shah time we did have to go through this mess.." (meaning: waiting in line to buy eggs with coupons).

I travelled a few times from Istanbul to Tehran by bus (3 days and 2 nites) in the 80s (during Iran Iraq war)...you would not be believed the behaviour of these iranian passengers...as soon as they crossed the border to turkey...drinking and singing started. As soon as the bus entered the Iranian border, they changed their behaviour. They told so much bad things about the Government and Imam Khomeini and the Komiteh. They told me that I would be badly treated at the border if I entered Iran...

My experience when entering Iran using the bus from Istanbul... I was threated very well and with respect from the Pasdaran and Komiteh...I did not know them, nor do I get paid by the Iranian government. I went there to see for my own eyes.

Layman

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