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In the Name of God بسم الله

Debate With A Conservative Radio Talk Show Host

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I think the OP did a good job but it would have been better if he highlighted the real reasons for terrorism which is political not religious. You should have put light on the political aspect of the problem and given examples of US intervention in different countries around the world. Its a reaction to all that. Justifiable or not that's another matter altogether but what I highlighted is the real reason for this whole terrorism business.

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Its nice that you called in bro, I have done the same various times in Canada, I think what you ought to recognize at the outset is that these hosts could care less about religious texts or what islam actually preaches. There isnt much to be gained by quoting hadiths etc.

Easiest way to shut them up is to make them aware of US backed atrocities which have caused deep grievances around the world, you can quote some of the biggest journals, human rights organizations and even US internal declassified state documents. The numbers are staggering.

I think almost every American has heard the "islam doesnt accept terrorism" justification, they are past that now, they simply go on to tell you that most terrorists do say they do it in the name of islam. You can obviously refute that fact by explaining who has directly backed some of the most horrific crimes against humanity since the world war. It has created an environment in which certain groups can use a religion which so many hold dear to their hearts to meet their political ends.

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Well I 'm kind of playing devils advocate but the point is this is at it's core a western/ european nation and traditions that can't integrate into that are not going to be accepted. like these cab drivers in wherever it is who won't carry passengers who have alcohol with them. it's like sorry dude.

and your list kind of proves my point. Don't you think the Indians should have done everything they could to stop White people from taking over?

What did the Indians not do? Have a little bit of historical perspective, the so called "liberators" slaughtered nearly an entire indigenous population of 10 million people with highly complex and developed societies. Too bad the Indians were not equipped with gun powder and small pox or they probably would have had a better chance of survival. I mean that was genocide of the highest proportions, utterly devastating.

What does integration mean to you? Most recent immigrants are law abiding citizens and they integrate just fine, I am sorry if they dont share your blinded love for Columbus or the are sketchy about some of the founding fathers. If you want to go ahead and kick them out, I am afraid your already struggling economy will lose its last remaining leg.

Get with the times, with your attitude, its you who will have a problem integrating 10 years from now. Rest of the Americans will hopefully stay true to whats left of the enlightenment values and prosper.

I think the guys point is we don't have similar problems with ,say, Asians or Indians that we do with muslims.

Its easier to single out one or two groups and outright demonize them to scare the general population into supporting mindless wars. It hasnt always been muslims, it was the Japanese, communists and then immigrants from the south. When the American elite was busy gathering mass public support by outright demonizing soviet Russia, they could give a damn about the islamic threat at that point.

If you want to go further back, go read about the early Italian immigration, Jewish immigration, Chinese and Japanese immigration. All these groups were initially 'un American' and needed to be weeded out. Muslims today, bound to be someone else tommorow, massive public movements are underway to democratize American society, so we still have hope. Unfortunately the mass media still presses your viewpoint, but the population stopped paying attention long time ago.

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Its nice that you called in bro, I have done the same various times in Canada, I think what you ought to recognize at the outset is that these hosts could care less about religious texts or what islam actually preaches. There isnt much to be gained by quoting hadiths etc.

Easiest way to shut them up is to make them aware of US backed atrocities which have caused deep grievances around the world, you can quote some of the biggest journals, human rights organizations and even US internal declassified state documents. The numbers are staggering.

I think almost every American has heard the "islam doesnt accept terrorism" justification, they are past that now, they simply go on to tell you that most terrorists do say they do it in the name of islam. You can obviously refute that fact by explaining who has directly backed some of the most horrific crimes against humanity since the world war. It has created an environment in which certain groups can use a religion which so many hold dear to their hearts to meet their political ends.

I appreciate it brother. Keep calling into those shows and voice your opinion, We need the ordinary laymen to hear the Muslim voices. This in itself will increase public awareness and InshAllah change people's opinions one by one.

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Salam,

I applaud your efforts, however, its a tough row to hoe. If you haven't noticed, we don't have a single Muslim talk show on the free, PUBLIC, airwaves that I've ever heard (and I've listed to ALOT of news and talk radio all over the U.S.). I'm not blaming others for this, it's our fault and it should be more of priority then it is currently. As a result, the only way Muslims can get their message out is either by "preaching to the choir" (i.e., speeches and lectures at mosques) or going on non-Muslim talk shows and starting from square one with each host. Another way is speaking on college campuses, although this has become more difficult after 9-11.

I have written many "letters to the editor" and even been interviewed on NPR, however, it's usually a very unsatisfying experience because you have to do so much self censorship (because of the limited time and the lack of knowledge of the interviewer/host about the basics of Islam) and you never really get to the "meat" of the issue at hand. You also (unless it's live) have no control of what actually "makes it in" out of what you said (usually a 30 minute interview edited down to 5 minutes or less, for example). I must say,however, that a few of my letters have been well received and I am sometimes surprised by the openness and willingness of the respondents to go "outside of their comfort zone" to pursue their story. I will continue to "express" myself as a Muslim in whatever way I can and as honestly as I can, however, my expectations of the receipeint will remain low for the foreseeable future. I hope I will be proven wrong to have this attitude in the near future.

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correctly. From my experience, there is a huge correlation between people who believe 9/11 was an inside job and peole who are terrorist supporting holocaust denying weirdos.

Your a clown, nice you throw out alleged "holocaust denial" whatever you mean by that; oh yean and there also seems to be a huge correlation with white people like you and denial of much larger and real genocides like the extermination of 100 million Native Americans (American Holocaust) and the killing of between 30 million and 60 million Africans in the "Maafa" African Holocaust of the Atlantic slave trade run by white Christians like yourself (see Sir John Hawkins of England and his "Jesus of Lubeck" aka the Goodship Jesus!)

0195085574.jpg

http://www.the4thworld.net/node/15

http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/NewsArchive/artikel.php?ID=180999

But I assume you'll throw out the usual garbage about "red savages" and you civilizing white people, of course you weren't out to pillage and exterminate!

Refuting more idiot white colonialist apologists:

http://martialartsworldwide.yuku.com/topic/872/t/Indigenous-Martial-Arts.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=2pO7IJIGuw4C&pg=PA127&dq=ward+churchill+peter+hassler&hl=en&ei=w6G2TPOcCIL98AaYyenSCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=peter%20hassler&f=false

http://www.myspace.com/aaicc2000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_years_war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10577082

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1003869,00.html

http://www.indigenouscultures.org/mythsandrealities.pdf

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~johnb/micro/m130/readings/stannard.html

Then Dobyns demonstrated that it was 100 million to 110 million. There's still debate, but now the low end of the debate is around 70 million.

http://www.countercurrents.org/hamer081209.htm

Thomas Jefferson (President:1801-1809), (The principle author of the Declaration of Independence) instructed his War Department that any Indians who resisted American expansion into their lands, must be met with ‘the Hatchet’”. “We will never lay it down until that tribe is exterminated”. Jefferson said that the American government had no other choice than “To pursue (the Indians) to extermination”.

...

L. Frank Baum, the author of The Wizard of Oz, wrote an editorial in the Aberdeen Saturday Pioneer in 1890: “The Whites, by law of conquest, by justice of civilization, are masters of the American continent, and the best safety of the frontier settlements will be secured by the total annihilation of the few remaining Indians. Why not annihilation? … We cannot honestly regret their extermination”.

...

Lincoln’s General John Pope said: “It is my purpose to utterly exterminate the Sioux. They are to be treated as maniacs or wild beasts”.

”In 1867 General William Tecumseh Sherman said: ‘We must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux, even to their extermination’”. (145) “Sherman’s philosophy was that since the inferior Indians refused to step aside so superior American culture could create success & progress, they had to be driven out of the way”. (146) “Sherman expressed his deep disappointment over the fact that were it not for ‘civilian interference’ his army would have ‘gotten rid of them all’ & killed every last Indian in the U.S.”. (147) Sherman described a ‘Final Solution’ to the Indian problem: “Sherman ordered his subordinates to kill the Indians without restraint to achieve what he called: ‘The Final Solution’”. (148) DiLorenzo quotes Sherman regarding the war of extermination of the American Indians: “I am charmed at the handsome conduct of our troops in the field”.

“In 1851 California Governor Peter Burnett promised a “War of extermination will continue to be waged between the two races until the Indian race becomes extinct”.

Governor Alexander Ramsey declared in 1862: “The Sioux Indians must be exterminated or driven forever beyond the borders of the state” “His plan was further implemented when bounties were placed on the scalps of Dakota people which reached $200”.

But I assume you will throw out the tried and try Eurocentric apologist garbage that the alleged lowly "savages" of non-white masses of this planet should be "grateful" that you white Europeans "liberated" them of all their natural resources, people as slaves, and indigenous wealth and civilizations with your nice colonialism; excluding of course those you killed in genocides!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/jun/28/comment.britishidentity

A collective failure of the imagination now makes it difficult for us to think about the globe before European and American domination. Greed and violence are hardly exclusive to one culture. But colonialism destroyed or strangled possibilities and potential for progress, such as Mughal Emperor Akbar's "sul-e-kul" or "universal good" which underpinned his governance. The scale of European imperialism inaugurated a new chapter in the history of greed which still shapes all our lives. Natural resources - cotton, sugar, teak, rubber, minerals - were plundered in gigantic quantities. The Indian textile industry was the most advanced in the world when the British arrived; within half a century it had been destroyed. The enslaved and indentured (at least 20 million Africans and 1.5 million Indians) were shipped across the globe to work on plantations, mines and railroads. The stupendous profits deriving from this enabled today's developed world to prosper.

The point isn't for Europeans to feel guilt, but a serious consideration of historical responsibility isn't the same thing as a blame game.

no one cares what you think though that's the point. it's our country it's OUR paradigm not yours that is how things are judged.

what you consider indecent we consider normal. what you consider modest we consider sexist and backward.

our definition of liberty is the definition of liberty in our country. in the middle east yours is. No surpise that people are leaving there and coming here.

and this is not to say just America, Hong Kong, Brazil, Australia, Iceland. South Korea.

Your a complete Eurocentric racist without doubt. "Liberty" for white men like you I'm sure but none for the Blacks and Latinos that you have systematically enslaved and killed for centuries in your European colonialist plunder schemes or that you today lock up in your prison industrial complex after purposefully flooding their communities with cocaine to fund your imperial projects.

58322100705890L.gif

Oh yeah and for your pathetic little colonialist cheer leading line of "No surpise that people are leaving there and coming here", if you were educated at all and not a pure white Eurocentric colonialist apologist you would realize this is what is called "brain drain" and is neo-colonialism, imperialism and a legacy of white colonialism and its crimes of plundering nations wealth and peoples (Atlantic slave trade, etc.)

http://www.chowk.com/articles/4407

The Riches of the World Must Flow West...At All Costs

The transfer of wealth still continues from the neo-colonies to the West in the form of raw materials, agricultural products, cash reciepts from the sales of weapons and over-priced manufactured goods, looted wealth by puppet regimes and corrupt elites, and from the brain drain of what little professionals these under-developed countries could produce from their limited capital resources.

http://revcom.us/a/189/BA_quotes-en.html

Now I can just hear these reactionary fools saying “well Bob, answer this. If this country is so terrible, why do people come here from all over the world? Why are so many people trying to get in, not to get out?”... Why? I’ll tell you why. Because you have f***** up the rest of the world even worse than what you have done in this country. You have made it impossible for many people to live in their own countries as part of gaining your riches and power.

http://archive.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=84138&d=21&m=6&y=2006

The Black Book of Capitalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Book_of_Capitalism

You are a shameless Eurocentric racist.

Edited by Basra
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Your a clown, nice you throw out alleged "holocaust denial" whatever you mean by that; oh yean and there also seems to be a huge correlation with white people like you and denial of much larger and real genocides like the extermination of 100 million Native Americans (American Holocaust) and the killing of between 30 million and 60 million Africans in the "Maafa" African Holocaust of the Atlantic slave trade run by white Christians like yourself (see Sir John Hawkins of England and his "Jesus of Lubeck" aka the Goodship Jesus!)

Don't forget about the Trail of Tears where Native American Indians were forced by the United States Government to relocate from their own land and many died along their way. Sounds kind of like the migration from Kerbala to Shaam the original Trail of Tears. May Allah (SWT) curse (remove mercy) from the Oppressors! Aameen!

In 1838 and 1839, as part of Andrew Jackson's Indian removal policy, the Cherokee nation was forced to give up its lands east of the Mississippi River and to migrate to an area in present-day Oklahoma. The Cherokee people called this journey the "Trail of Tears," because of its devastating effects. The migrants faced hunger, disease, and exhaustion on the forced march. Over 4,000 out of 15,000 of the Cherokees died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears

http://ngeorgia.com/history/nghisttt.html

http://www.42explore2.com/trailoftears.htm

This will give you more ammo in your arguements.

Edited by zzaveri
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Your a clown, nice you throw out alleged "holocaust denial" whatever you mean by that; oh yean and there also seems to be a huge correlation with white people like you and denial of much larger and real genocides like the extermination of 100 million Native Americans (American Holocaust) and the killing of between 30 million and 60 million Africans in the "Maafa" African Holocaust of the Atlantic slave trade run by white Christians like yourself (see Sir John Hawkins of England and his "Jesus of Lubeck" aka the Goodship Jesus!)

?? a correlation? There's a correlation between muslims and terrorism. muslims "like yourself" did the mumbai bombings so you do them? okay

But I assume you'll throw out the usual garbage about "red savages" and you civilizing white people, of course you weren't out to pillage and exterminate!

I didn't pillage anyone. I wasn't alive in the 1500's.

Anyway, The Americans settlers fought the Indians for the land and won. I don't begrudge the Indians for trying to hold onto it but yes we conquered the land.

and so did zzaveri and every american muslim just as much as me. Give your house and all your earhtly belonging to an american Indian if it bothers you so much.

flooding their communities with cocaine to fund your imperial projects.

I don't have any imperial projects or cocaine. As many people here know I'm a libertarian and totally disagree with our foreign policy. muslim did alot of conquest to. So you are just as guilty. and that certainly goes double for slavery as I'm sure you well know.

Because you have f***** up the rest of the world even worse than what you have done in this country. You have made it impossible for many people to live in their own countries as part of gaining your riches and power.

?? so how has the standard of living for people in India China and Brazil gone up so much in the past two decades?

How have we made life miserable for people in , say, hong Kong?

Islamic countries are in bad shape because of Islam not because of the US.

Don't forget about the Trail of Tears where Native American Indians were forced by the United States Government to relocate from their own land and many died along their way

?? we all learned about this in grade school.

you guys don't care about the native americans struggle, you are like most muslims completely and totally incapable of any kind of self reflection or introspection. I once started a thread here asking if people could describe problems within Islam without mention the United States or Israel and they couldn't. It takes ZERO courage to talk about 9/11 conspiracies, it takes alot of courage to discuss why for example Lebanon has intermittent electricity as bad as Iraq despite the fact that there is no occuptation going on, just corruption. Or why no one else in the world makes their wives walk ten feet behind them like cavemen except muslims.

It's your leftist mindset. Everything is someone else fault. Not very dignified fellas. and again, no one here cares about your whining. This isn't Europe we aren't politically correct.

Edited by Lester
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(salam)

This was a difficult conversation. You did really well. I actually like the way you brought up the example of Abu Gharib. And you did very well when you said 15 hijackers /terrorists were from Saudi Arabia and nothing happened to them. Continue driving this point home in all the debate. You should also speak about the Iraq war casualty – approx half a million dead Iraqi.

The three things Texan is Gun, Religion and Football and not necessarily in this order.

As far as hostility is concerned I believe Shiachat has prepped me for hostility. :!!!: lol ... Haven't you seen the latest taqleed and walayat-ul-faqih threads bro. You want to get prepared for wild and crazy, views and hostility go into those threads. :) It's definitely one of the best training grounds I have been on!

lol....

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The three things Texan is Gun, Religion and Football and not necessarily in this order.

That actually pretty good. Texan = Guns, Football and Cowboys (The team or the title of person can be used interchangeably)!

I didn't pillage anyone. I wasn't alive in the 1500's.

Anyway, The Americans settlers fought the Indians for the land and won. I don't begrudge the Indians for trying to hold onto it but yes we conquered the land.

and so did zzaveri and every american muslim just as much as me. Give your house and all your earhtly belonging to an american Indian if it bothers you so much.

You may want to claim that you conquered but I am not laying down that claim. Nor am I proud of the past atrocities and injustices commited by my country.

The point as you very well know is to illustrate the way the United States so peacefully came into fruition.

As you can see mass blooshed and genocide doesn't count as a peaceful means.

But as long as the ends justify the means approach continues we will continue to have the United States Government spread their colonialistic/imperialistic message around the world.

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?? a correlation? There's a correlation between muslims and terrorism. muslims "like yourself" did the mumbai bombings so you do them? okay

I didn't pillage anyone. I wasn't alive in the 1500's.

Anyway, The Americans settlers fought the Indians for the land and won. I don't begrudge the Indians for trying to hold onto it but yes we conquered the land.

and so did zzaveri and every american muslim just as much as me. Give your house and all your earhtly belonging to an american Indian if it bothers you so much.

I don't have any imperial projects or cocaine. As many people here know I'm a libertarian and totally disagree with our foreign policy. muslim did alot of conquest to. So you are just as guilty. and that certainly goes double for slavery as I'm sure you well know.

?? so how has the standard of living for people in India China and Brazil gone up so much in the past two decades?

How have we made life miserable for people in , say, hong Kong?

Islamic countries are in bad shape because of Islam not because of the US.

?? we all learned about this in grade school.

you guys don't care about the native americans struggle, you are like most muslims completely and totally incapable of any kind of self reflection or introspection. I once started a thread here asking if people could describe problems within Islam without mention the United States or Israel and they couldn't. It takes ZERO courage to talk about 9/11 conspiracies, it takes alot of courage to discuss why for example Lebanon has intermittent electricity as bad as Iraq despite the fact that there is no occuptation going on, just corruption. Or why no one else in the world makes their wives walk ten feet behind them like cavemen except muslims.

It's your leftist mindset. Everything is someone else fault. Not very dignified fellas. and again, no one here cares about your whining. This isn't Europe we aren't politically correct.

Your a wicked truly shameless Eurocentric genocide and slavery apologist! People like you are either evil white supremacists that openly call non-whites "mud people" who allegedly "deserve" to be oppressed by the "pure white man" or are a little more slippery dodgy and try to defend the sick crimes of your white European brethren with evil apologist claims: which is the category you clearly fall into and you likely are simply hiding your white supremacism on this forum. Your truly not even worth my, or any other actually intellectuals time, but your apologist garbage for evil European crimes needs to be shown to be the garbage it is.

You pathetically try to get around white European's crimes by just saying "I didn't pillage anyone. I wasn't alive in the 1500's." This is typical of white European apologists who believe this simple statement will absolve them of the responsibility for the crimes of their ancestors; but guess what not only does you colonialist white Europeans continue to commit your colonialist/imperialist crimes but you also inherited and benefited from the crimes of your white European ancestors! You cannot both take the benefit of your ancestor's crimes and than try to claim you shouldn't be called to account for them. White European apologist clowns like you often make your same silly argument to try to avoid the true moral obligation white Europeans owe in reparations to for example African-Americans that the white Europeans enslaved. You'll say "but I didn't own any slaves!!!" but guess what you tool you inherited the wealth created by your white supremacist European ancestors and the entire base of the economy of the United States of Amerikkka is based on the exploitation of those African slaves (wherein 30 to up 60 million African slaves were also killed).

http://revcom.us/a/106/horowitz-en.html

Quote- The vast wealth generated by slaves in the United States benefited not just the slave owners in the South but also the capitalists of the North, with whom they had a contentious but integrated relationship that was at the foundation of the United States. The massive wealth, literally beaten out of the backs of slaves, played a crucial role not just in the agricultural economy of the South but in the textile and other industries of the North (see Complicity: How the North Promoted, Prolonged, and Profited from Slavery, by Anne Farrow, Joel Lang, and Jenifer Frank).

Further, white supremacy, and the economic, political, and cultural expressions of that, permeate and are foundational to everything the United States has been, and is about. Not all whites owned slaves. Not all Blacks were enslaved during the period of slavery. But the fact is that slavery determined the character of the entire society during that period, especially but not only in the South. So even whites who weren’t slave owners found their place within and benefited from that society, including as part of the enforcement of that system. A whole social order arose on this foundation. Morality, values, and a psychology of white supremacy were preached in the churches, taught in the schools, and embedded and enforced in a myriad of ways.

...

There have been many studies attempting to quantify the theft of income and wealth created by Black labor over the past fifteen generations. According to David H. Swinton, President of Benedict College in Columbia, South Carolina, one researcher has calculated that the 1983 value of the slave labor expropriated by whites from 1620 to 1865 ranges from nearly $1 trillion to as much as $97 trillion, depending on the rate of interest chosen for the long intervening period. (See Swinton’s essay cited by Joe Feagin in “Documenting the Costs of Slavery, Segregation, and Contemporary Racism: Why Reparations Are in Order for African Americans,” Harvard Blackletter Law Journal, vol. 20, 2004).

end quote.

So concluding destroying your pathetic "I didn't do it" plea, nobody is saying you directly "Lester" committed the American Holocaust against the Native Americans who suffered European genocide or that you personally were a part of the Atlantic slave trade; but you as a white European inherited the wealth of your ancestors and thus you either have to give it up (reparations) or at the very minimum admit that your ancestors crimes and the white supremacist system you continue to inhabit.

As to your claims that Native Americans allegedly just "lost a war", your putting aside the fact that evil white European invaders stole their land and colonized them; I guess might makes right according to you! How can you both be in favor of evil vulgar social darwinism and "might makes right" and then criticize Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Germans?! Oh yeah its simply that your a punk that gets away with it because history is written by the victors; and since the Nazis lost everyone including the genocidal colonialist Amerikkkans, the wicked British Empire that murdered 29 million Indians (in India, British Raj), stands back and goes Hitler was bad! Look in the mirror you tool. Will you at least admit your simply cheerleading in victor history (history written by the victor)?!

Also using your evil social darwinist "logic" and might makes right evildoer excuses; you would than also have to defend Adolf Hitler as the Jews of Europe did mount armed resistance (just like Native Americans mounted armed resistance to the white European evildoers that invaded them, killed them, and stole their land). Regarding Jewish partisans in WWII: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_partisans "In all, the Jewish partisans numbered between 20,000 and 30,000."; one can also see events like the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising were armed Jews resist Nazi oppression.

There was a Hollywood movie recently called "Defiance" (movie poster below) about a group of armed Jewish partisans called the "Bielski partisans" that fought against the Nazi Germans: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielski_partisans

Defianceposter08.jpg

The academic David E. Stannard (author of "American Holocaust") shreds you (and other white European genocide apologists) on all issues that you clowns attempt to use to justify the extermination of 100 million Native Americans in the Western hemisphere (Mesoamerica) in an essay called "Uniqueness as Denial" refuting Zionist ethnocentric racist evil clowns.

...

On your other claim yes you should give all your ill-gotten gains back to the Native Americans your wicked white European ancestors stole them from; I think the Native Americans will be cool with Muslims and African-Americans they really don't like you white European criminals that tried to exterminate them though!

http://www.countercurrents.org/hamer081209.htm

*”Thomas Jefferson (President:1801-1809), (The principle author of the Declaration of Independence) instructed his War Department that any Indians who resisted American expansion into their lands, must be met with ‘the Hatchet’”. “We will never lay it down until that tribe is exterminated”. Jefferson said that the American government had no other choice than “To pursue (the Indians) to extermination”. (134)

end quote.

As to your little attempt to excuse yourself of slavery nobody who is has done any actual academic research would ever compare the brutal white European Christian Atlantic slave trade that murdered up to 60 million Africans to "slavery" (often times just indentured servitude) that existed elsewhere around the world: including in the Arab and Muslim world. Slavery and servitude have been near universal things but the Atlantic slave trade was unique in how evil it was as it viewed black Africans as non-human animals that white European Christians were thus allowed to brutalize and treat in any condition they chose.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/slavery_1.shtml#section_4

"The nature of the Atlantic trade and therefore the survival of racism in the West has been one of segregation. There wasn't this separation in Islam. Muslims didn't push blacks off the pavement. They didn't forbid restaurants to serve them. I don't think that there's any disputing that slavery was a more benevolent institution in Islam than it was in the West."

Ronald Segal, interviewed in Chicago Sun-Times, 17/02/2002

...

Slavery in the Atlantic trade was highly racist, something prohibited in Islam where there was much less institutionalised racism. Both masters and slaves had a wide range of colours and backgrounds; the result is that former slaves became absorbed into the Islamic world, while former slaves remained a discriminated-against underclass in the USA until comparatively recently

end quote.

Photos from the uniquely brutal and evil Atlantic slave trade; a diagram of sheer inhumanity of the slave ships white European Christians forced Africans into during the Atlantic slave trade wherein white Christians murdered 30 to 60 million poor oppressed black Africans.

Slave_ship_diagram.png

As to cocaine the imperialist American CIA did purposefully flood African-American ghettos (created themselves as a legacy of white European colonialism, slavery, lynchings, and racism) with crack cocaine in order to both serve the prison industrial complex in the US and fund the Contra right wing rebels the CIA puppets in Nicaragua.

As to your your white supremacist apologist "what did we do to people?" pathetic cry.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/jun/28/comment.britishidentity

A collective failure of the imagination now makes it difficult for us to think about the globe before European and American domination. Greed and violence are hardly exclusive to one culture. But colonialism destroyed or strangled possibilities and potential for progress, such as Mughal Emperor Akbar's "sul-e-kul" or "universal good" which underpinned his governance. The scale of European imperialism inaugurated a new chapter in the history of greed which still shapes all our lives. Natural resources - cotton, sugar, teak, rubber, minerals - were plundered in gigantic quantities. The Indian textile industry was the most advanced in the world when the British arrived; within half a century it had been destroyed. The enslaved and indentured (at least 20 million Africans and 1.5 million Indians) were shipped across the globe to work on plantations, mines and railroads. The stupendous profits deriving from this enabled today's developed world to prosper.

The point isn't for Europeans to feel guilt, but a serious consideration of historical responsibility isn't the same thing as a blame game.

end quote.

I would go into neo-colonialism, imperialism, brain drain, but obviously your a filthy Eurocentric racist you simply doesn't care and you should just go join the KKK.

I'm sure your also one of those so-called "Angry White Men"; who not only denies your evil white European races crimes but also says you as whites are allegedly oppressed by all those minorities who your wicked ancestors exploited for centuries.

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Superrich.html

Quote- In typical social-science fashion, they prefigured their findings by limiting the scope of their data. Both studies failed to note that achieving a high income is itself in large part due to inherited advantages. Those coming from upper-strata households have a far better opportunity to maintain their health and develop their performance, attend superior schools, and achieve the advanced professional training, contacts, and influence needed to land the higher paying positions.

...

When pressed on this point, they explain that there is a shortage of data on the very rich. Being such a tiny percentage, “they’re an extremely difficult part of the population to survey,” pleads Rand economist James P. Smith, offering the same excuse given by the Census Bureau officials. That Smith finds the super rich difficult to survey should not cause us to overlook the fact that their existence refutes his findings about self-earned wealth. He seems to admit as much when he says, "This [study] shouldn't be taken as a statement that the Rockefellers didn’t give to their kids and the Kennedys didn't give to their kids." (New York Times, July 7, 1995) Indeed, most of the really big money is inherited — and by a portion of the population that is so minuscule as to be judged statistically inaccessible.

More of your crimes today evil white European imperialists:

end quote.

But your a "libertarian" fool who likely tries to claim you "earned all your wealth" when in reality you and your fellow white European evildoers have inherited wealth stolen by your white European ancestors.

sweatshops.jpg

White Europeans truly are racists, and fools like you have the gall to say "oh the Nazis are bad" look in the mirror at your slavery and Native American extermination you wicked racist apologist.

Edited by Basra
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Or why no one else in the world makes their wives walk ten feet behind them like cavemen except muslims.

This is one of the most asinine claims you make, along with your clear white supremacist genocidal support of slavery, the holocaust of Native Americans, and other filthy social darwinist views were you cheerleader for history written by the victor since you as racist white European had evil ancestors that were so brutal they came out on "top" for a time.

There is nothing in Islam about making ones wife allegedly "walk ten feet behind them" and this simply does not happen on any sizable basis. Of course someone could find one example of something and then try to generalize it; for example I could show some of the modern crimes of white European Christians like say Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, and John Wayne Gacy and declare that all white Christian men are murdering rapist cannibals! But of course this is not a fair claim, just as your absurd racist claim also isn't. Oh yeah and if your so concerned with what you claim to not like about Muslim gender relations I suggest you take a look in the mirror at all the filth in Western society and Amerikkka with your insanely high amount of rapes, child molestation, domestic violence, STD infection rates, and on!

latimes rape in the US military

Also what about filthy pornography that fills Western society I'm sure you'll argue this allegedly "honors women"! Heck even Amerikkkan politicians aren't immune from this like the current teabagger candidate Carl Paladino who not only sent out racist emails but also sent out his favorite pornographic bestiality videos of a woman having sexual relations with a horse! You in the West are messed up completely, and you sure have high divorce rates creating messed up children!

On another topic since you like to both defend the genocide of Native Americans and the Atlantic slave trade against Africans done by white European Christians; and yet than also try to bellyache on about the Nazi Germans and their crimes I think the following response of academic David E. Stannard refuting another white supremacist idiot (Christopher Hitchens) suits well to refute you garbage even more!

http://christopherhitchenswatch.blogspot.com/2008_11_01_archive.html

Quote- One possible exception Hitchens allowed to his vulgar social Darwinism, with its quasi-Hitlerian view of the proper role of power in history, was the Euro-American enslavement of tens of millions of Africans. But even then, Hitchens contended, those centuries of massive brutality only "probably left Africa worse off than they found it". Clearly, however...if it could be shown to Hitchens' personal satisfaction that Africa was in fact "better off" following the enslavement and simultaneous mass killing of 40 million to 60 million of its people, he would celebrate the abominations of the slave trade with the same vim and gusto that he did the genocide against the native peoples of the Americas.

These are, of course, precisely the same sort of retrospective justifications for genocide that would have been offered by the descendants of Nazi storm troopers and SS doctors had the Third Reich ultimately had its way; that is, however distasteful the means, the extermination of the Jews was thoroughly warranted given the beneficial ends that were accomplished. In this light it is worth considering again what the reaction would be in Europe and elsewhere if the equivalent of the actual views of Krauthammer and Schlesinger and Hitchens were expressed today by the respectable press in Germany - but with Jews, not Native Americans, as the people whose historical near-extermination was being celebrated. And there is no doubt whatsoever that if that were to happen, alarm bells announcing a frightening and unparalleled postwar resurgence of German neo-Nazism would, quite justifiably, be going off immediately throughout the world.

end quote.

Also since white supremacist clowns like you try to defend the genocides white Europeans carried out against Africans and Indigenous people by claiming "oh we invented things" as if this excuses anything I guess that means someone can kill you, steal all your possessions but as long as they go on to "do something" or "invent something" this excuses all their crimes against you: something tells me you wouldn't be alright with this if it was you who was being hurt!

Noting first all the inventions of the Indigenous people of Mesoamerica (see math, science, Mayan calendar, Mayan and Aztec pyramids, etc.) which even amazed the evil Spanish Conquistadors when they used their brutality, tricks, and germs to conquer the people of Mexico: one can see great inventions which happened in Nazi Germany and were done by proud Nazi supporters. Does this excuse their crimes according to tools like you?!

http://www.schoolhistory.co.uk/studentforum/index.php?showtopic=3973

Quote- Statements on the Internet on what the Nazis invented/ contributed to the modern world

Volkswagen

KdF

computer, invented by Konrad Zuse 1941.

Jet plane in 1939 by Heinkel Flugzeugwerke.

The first manned rocket flight in 1945 (unfortunately it lasted only some seconds and pilot Lothar Sieber died)

Nazi doctors, in line with their campaign for public health were the first to write a major scientific paper linking smoking with lung cancer, I believe smoking was even banned, for a brief time in the Luftwaffee.

Nazis invented Nerve gasses Sarin and Tabun.

Invented first effective automatic rifle, single person anti-tank weapons (precursors to RPGs).

You can see some magnificant architecture by Speer that was planned in nearly any documentary on the man.

Autobahns

Stealth technolgy was invented by the Horten brothers during the Reich.

Audio technology using magnetic tape was a Third Reich invention. Copying German tape recorders was how the famous American corporation Ampex got its start. Magnetic tape was also essential later for the video tape recorder. Allies hadn't a clue how the Axis was transmitting speeches and programs hours apart to different locations and having them sound "live." It was top of the list of technologies to capture as the war concluded.

Management systems for keeping massive and complex development programs on track was another "invention" transferred to the US, along with its scientists and project managers. These systems allowed the Germans to have developments underway in numerous categories and perform them remarkably well.

The Wankel engine, which is now referred to as the "rotary engine" was invented during the Third Reich. Mazda uses this engine extensively.

Someone mentioned the Autobahnen as really an idea thought up during the Weimar Republic. Yes, but that brings to light another achievement, and that is simply the will and energy to put unemployed workers to work doing things that needed to be done, something the Weimar government was totally inept at doing. "Parliamentary chaos" combined with acquiescence to WWI reparations were the problems.

Missile technology: Ground-to-ground, air-to-air, air-to-ground, ground-to-air, ship-to-ship, etc., using wire guidance, TV guidance, IR guidance (everything but laser quidance). Most of these missiles were not at the highest form of development, but their work launched and made a bundle of money later on for corporations like Boeing, Raytheon, Hughes Aircraft, North American Aviation (Rocketdyne Div.), etc. All of these companies had their German "Chief Scientist" heading up research and development operations.

The promising IR technologies were mostly all developed during the Third Reich. They had "night vision" devices while the Allies were still wondering if such things were possible.

Modern sewer treatment facilities are all derived from Third Reich technology. You've probably seen them with their settling ponds and huge skimmers.

While the Englishman, Farnsworth, gets credit for the invention of a very rudimentary television, it was the Third Reich that perfected television and conducted the first broadcasting.

Application of geophones for seismic wave detection was used for locating artillary.

The "wishbone cannon" was invented and installed at Calais, France. It was destroyed before it was operable.

The "rail gun" was another significant invention, which the US and SU copied. This weapon employes a series of ring magnets to propell a rail mounted projectile. The significant feature of this "gun" is that it can accelerate the projectile at a speed nearing infinity -- at least in theory. Conventional explosives are limited by their individual, finite rates of expansion and hence constrained in how fast they can make a projectile move.

The intial "invention" of the Third Reich that made everything possible was the breaking away from the international banking system, which made its money on debt finance; i.e., usury. This act was probably the most important event which caused WWII to later occur. In the Thirties the German economy was booming and all sorts of new humane benefits were granted to workers. Elsewhere, deep economic depression was underway, and Roosevelt, for instance, really couldn't get things to moving until we went into a war economy mode.

In all, 300,000 patents and copyrights were expropriated from Germany by the Allies after 1945.

The Fischer-Tropsch process to produce synthetic fuels from coal, which fueled Germany's armed forces throughout the war.

The dicovery of the ingesting of faecal bacteria to cure gut problems

http://www.rense.com/general4/bac.htm

Dr Morell used his Mutaflor to treat Hitler's foul smelling stools. And used today as Symbioflor http://www.biosym.dk..._symbioflor.htm

The chemical enhancing of soldiers' ability to fight

http://www.rense.com...l34/enhance.htm

During the Nazi era, German scientists and engineers either developed or greatly improved television, jet-propelled aircraft (including the ejection seat), guided missiles, electronic computers, the electron microscope, atomic fission, data-processing technologies, pesticides, and, of course, the world's first industrial murder complexes. The first magnetic tape recording was of a speech by Hitler, and the nerve gases Sarin and Tabun were Nazi inventions.

Third Reich scientists also performed extensive work in the area of occupational carcinogenesis. Physicians documented the health hazards of asbestos, and in 1943 Germany became the first nation to recognize lung cancer and mesothelioma caused by asbestos inhalation as compensable occupational illnesses.

Nazi Germany also pioneered what we now call experimental epidemiology: two striking papers -- a 1939 article by Franz H. Müller of Cologne, and a 1943 paper by Eberhard Schairer and Erich Schöniger of Jena -- presented the most convincing demonstrations up to that time that cigarettes were a major cause of lung cancer.

Inflatable sex doll - Dr. Rudolf Chargeheimer, a psychiatrist appointed by Himmler to help develop the prototype, wrote that "the purpose and goal of the dolls is to relieve our soldiers. They have to fight and not to mingle with 'foreign women.'"

The opiate drugs methadone (the heroin substitute) and pethidine (a powerful pain killer) were Nazi inventions.

Our society, in fact Western society in general, absorbed as much of the Nazi technology and social control mechanisms as we could lay our grubby hands on. Turbine engines (the kind on airplanes and in powerplants), modern aircraft designs, rockets, superhighways, propaganda techniques, political manipulation, modern insecticides, nerve gas and audiotape are all Nazi inventions. We didn't invent them, and we weren't working on them at the same time. We took them from the Nazis wholesale (and we were entirely right to do so). Oddly, I'm not hearing anyone getting bent out of shape about the existence of freeways. http://billrushing.org/id169.html

Much of what we know about hypothermia (re-warming techniques and cold-water suits) comes, chillingly, from Nazi medical experiments.

http://www.jlaw.com/.../NaziMedEx.html

Custom-designed, IBM-produced punch cards, sorted by IBM machines leased to the Nazis, helped organize and manage the initial identification and social expulsion of Jews and others, the confiscation of their property, their ghettoization, their deportation, and, ultimately, even their extermination.

IBM's German subsidiary was Deutsche Hollerith Maschinen Gesellschaft, known by the acronym Dehomag.

For example, one series of punch cards was designed to record religion, national origin, and mother tongue, but by creating special columns and rows for Jew, Polish language, Polish nationality, the fur trade as an occupation, and then Berlin, Nazis could quickly cross-tabulate, at the rate of 25,000 cards per hour, exactly how many Berlin furriers were Jews of Polish extraction. Railroad cars, which could take two weeks to locate and route, could be swiftly dispatched in just 48 hours by means of a vast network of punch-card machines. Indeed, IBM services coursed through the entire German infrastructure in Europe.

Microwave cooking (necessary for troops in Russia)

end quote.

And even the Zionist racists at the ADL declare; "The problem with the 'science vs. fascism' thesis is that it fails to take into account the eagerness with which many scientists and physicians embraced the Reich, and the many scientific disciplines which actually flourished under the Nazis. Anyone who has ever examined a V-2 engine will have few doubts about this, and there are numerous other examples."

So do you respect the inventions of Nazi Germany?! Or do you only excuse genocide when it suits you and makes you feel good because your side won and history is written by the victor?! And then you in turn bellyache on about the Nazis and their crimes while again purposefully ignoring the crimes of your white European ancestors against Africans you enslaved and hundreds of millions of Indigenous people you exterminated and conquered! You are again a shameless white supremacist and Eurocentric apologist.

Edited by Basra
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see this is proving the guys point. You have a third world sort of mentality . You'd be better off in some islamo socialist hellhole dreaming up conspiracy theories and mistreating your wife. This isn't how we expend energy in the western, easter, northern, southern, everywhere except islam world modern world. Sorry if this sounds harsh.

"t you claim to not like about Muslim gender relations I suggest you take a look in the mirror at all the filth in Western society and Amerikkka with your insanely high amount of rapes, child molestation, domestic violence, STD infection rates, and on!"

yeah like th way kim jong il tells his people that people in south korea are miserable. It's just silly. No one belives any of this stuff. I guess the millions of muslims who come and are trying to come to America do so because they are atteacted by the high amount of rapes, child molestation and STD rates?

The stuff you are going on about has no currency outside places that have intermittent electricity and constant misery.

and why would I want to stop the use of children working in sweatshops? if they weren't working in sweatshops they would be child soldiers or even worse. WOuld you prefer they starve to death? Kids on farms work. ever see Little HOuse on the Prairie?

Edited by Lester
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see this is proving the guys point. You have a third world sort of mentality . You'd be better off in some islamo socialist hellhole dreaming up conspiracy theories and mistreating your wife. This isn't how we expend energy in the western, easter, northern, southern, everywhere except islam world modern world. Sorry if this sounds harsh.

"t you claim to not like about Muslim gender relations I suggest you take a look in the mirror at all the filth in Western society and Amerikkka with your insanely high amount of rapes, child molestation, domestic violence, STD infection rates, and on!"

yeah like th way kim jong il tells his people that people in south korea are miserable. It's just silly. No one belives any of this stuff. I guess the millions of muslims who come and are trying to come to America do so because they are atteacted by the high amount of rapes, child molestation and STD rates?

The stuff you are going on about has no currency outside places that have intermittent electricity and constant misery.

and why would I want to stop the use of children working in sweatshops? if they weren't working in sweatshops they would be child soldiers or even worse. WOuld you prefer they starve to death? Kids on farms work. ever see Little HOuse on the Prairie?

EDITED

Third world mentality? Yes you EDITED we have a third world mentality, we have a Revolutionary Mentality of Resistance, the "free world" mentality is Mcdonalds and Shopping Malls.

And seriously [EDITED]

What the EDITED Islam dooms us to misery?

LOOK AT THE EDITED MIDDLE AGES, MUSLIMS WERE THE MOST POWERFUL ON EARTH IN THE MIDDLE AGES!

It has nothing to do with Religion, but EDITED American FASCIST Imperialism.

EDITED you Support sweat shops? You capitalist son of a [Edited Out]. Go die. Just kill yourself.

America is EDITED up huge extent, killed WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more then North Korea did.

America has 2 million people in prison,

America has hunreds of thousands of political prisoners,

America is 1/7 in poverty,

America has catastrophic STD rates.

America has a [Edited Out]ty economy that strives off of the extraction and colonialization of other Economys.

America has a [Edited Out]ty education rate.

Most Americans do not know where Ukraine is located,

Or better yet, can't even name a country that starts with the letter Y.

[EDITED]

Mod's note: Please refrain from using obscenity in you post. This is an Islamic forum. You have been warned.

Edited by Zareen
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you have to leave 3rd worldliness behind when you come here. I was at Childrens hosptial a while ago and saw a muslim guy whose wife was walking ten feet beind him and...sorry, that's just not how we do it here. there's no law against it but we don't want it here. at all.

I would be fine with this, if you could refrain from enforcing your vision of the world in other countries.

However, you cannot.

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see this is proving the guys point. You have a third world sort of mentality . You'd be better off in some islamo socialist hellhole dreaming up conspiracy theories and mistreating your wife. This isn't how we expend energy in the western, easter, northern, southern, everywhere except islam world modern world. Sorry if this sounds harsh.

"t you claim to not like about Muslim gender relations I suggest you take a look in the mirror at all the filth in Western society and Amerikkka with your insanely high amount of rapes, child molestation, domestic violence, STD infection rates, and on!"

yeah like th way kim jong il tells his people that people in south korea are miserable. It's just silly. No one belives any of this stuff. I guess the millions of muslims who come and are trying to come to America do so because they are atteacted by the high amount of rapes, child molestation and STD rates?

The stuff you are going on about has no currency outside places that have intermittent electricity and constant misery.

and why would I want to stop the use of children working in sweatshops? if they weren't working in sweatshops they would be child soldiers or even worse. WOuld you prefer they starve to death? Kids on farms work. ever see Little HOuse on the Prairie?

Your a complete Eurocentric clown and racist who presents absolutely zero academic points in any of your pathetic claims to absolve your imperialist supporting self or your wicked European genocidal ancestors. As to your completely pathetic asinine claim: "No one belives any of this stuff. I guess the millions of muslims who come and are trying to come to America do so because they are atteacted by the high amount of rapes, child molestation and STD rates?" You do realize actual post-colonialist academics have long written about neo-colonialism and the brain-drain phenomenon that is used by the imperialist West to both rob the few intellectuals that recently post-colonial states can develop on their meager resources (that the Western colonialists got rich enslaving, stealing, and exploiting) and that purposefully keep the 'third world" enslaved in neo-colonialism.

http://www.chowk.com/articles/4407

Quote- The Riches of the World Must Flow West...At All Costs

The transfer of wealth still continues from the neo-colonies to the West in the form of raw materials, agricultural products, cash reciepts from the sales of weapons and over-priced manufactured goods, looted wealth by puppet regimes and corrupt elites, and from the brain drain of what little professionals these under-developed countries could produce from their limited capital resources. The prices of the commodities and raw materials produced by these countries are determined by the West. While the manufactured and capital goods, which are produced by the West, and which are needed desperately by the neo-colonial, so called third-world countries to develop, are sold at the premium prices, also determined by the West. The disparaties between these neo-colonists and neo-colonial countries, also sometimes referred to as Haves and Have Nots, are widening with every passing year.

http://revcom.us/a/189/BA_quotes-en.html

Quote- Now I can just hear these reactionary fools saying “well Bob, answer this. If this country is so terrible, why do people come here from all over the world? Why are so many people trying to get in, not to get out?”... Why? I’ll tell you why. Because you have f***** up the rest of the world even worse than what you have done in this country. You have made it impossible for many people to live in their own countries as part of gaining your riches and power.

Not surprising also that you are an evil sweatshop apologist; I'm sure you also believe that slavery was "beneficial" to those Africans you enslaved and locked today in your white racist created ghettos; slavery, lynchings, Jim Crow, a system of white institutional racism I'm sure a wicked white supremacist scumbag like you is just dandy with that! But unfortunately you know that society has at least advanced enough were white racists like you can't openly praise slavery of black people. Your pathetic false defenses for sweatshops (and other brutal neo-colonialism) are thrashed to pieces by Naomi Klein's academic work "No Logo": http://www.naomiklein.org/no-logo

Again white supremacist Amerikkkan genocide and slavery apologists like you always bellyache on about Adolf Hitler and the Nazis; the funny thing is that Adolf Hitler learned from Amerikkkan whites like yourself!!!

http://www.nemasys.com/ghostwolf/Native/genocide.shtml

Quote- "Hitler's concept of concentration camps as well as the practicality of genocide owed much, so he claimed, to his studies of English and United States history. He admired the camps for Boer prisoners in South Africa and for the Indians in the wild west; and often praised to his inner circle the efficiency of America's extermination - by starvation and uneven combat - of the red savages who could not be tamed by captivity." P. 202, "Adolph Hitler" by John Toland

http://www.bluecorncomics.com/hitler2.htm Adolf Hitler a True American

Bosque Redondo in America (used against Navajos) was a model Adolf Hitler used for Auschwitz concentration camp; and also the evil Amerikkkan doctrine of "Manifest Destiny" (the "from sea to shining sea" genocidal garbage) was directly copied by the Nazi Germans and given the name in German, "Lebensraum" (translated as "living space"): http://www.revleft.com/vb/manifest-destiny-successful-t114171/index.html?amp;

The Nazis again took the United States government's doctrine of Manifest Destiny, and made their own Nazi doctrine of "Lebensraum" (again translated into English as "living space") to take and conquer the land of Europe as "living space" and resources to be used by the allegedly "pure" German people (against Nazi enemies like Slavs, etc.) just as racist white European Amerikkkans stole land from Native Americans and Mexicans in evil colonialist, wealth stealing, murderous "Manifest Destiny".

American_progress.JPG

Also since an evil white supremacist apologist like yourself will also likely try to argue that Native Americans are allegedly "okay now" to try to excuse your ancestors and your genocide, colonization and theft from them it must be stated that evidences shows that Native Americans have the highest level of poverty of any group in Amerikkka. This is of course under the institutionally racist white supremacist society of the United States of Amerikkka. Also clowns like you also like to try to bring up the "casino" myth when the reality is this is just more whites stealing and using Natives!

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1003869,00.html

Quote- So if the overwhelming majority of Native Americans like Hollow Horn aren't benefiting from the Indian casino boom, who is? In many cases, the big winners are non-Indian investors, some of whom pocket more than 40% of an Indian casino's profits.

end quote.

Native American "casinos" only make up about 5% of the entire Amerikkkan gambling industry. Most Native tribes do not have "casinos", and again have the highest rate of poverty in the United States of Amerikkka thanks to the legacy and factors enforced on them from you white supremacists racists and your evil ancestors with their crimes, colonialism, theft, and racism. The few Native tribes that do have "casinos" were not given them as "reparations" by the wicked white supremacist Amerikkkan government; the Natives built them themselves by going into "business" (or league) with wealthy non-Native businessmen and investors (almost all of whom are white Europeans). These rich white imperialist businessmen do not "help" or go into business with these Native tribes out of the goodness of their hearts; they do it because they in turn (ithat is again rich white businessmen) take home the lion's share of a tribal casinos profits.

Add on to this all the illegal dumping of toxic waste by white owned businesses on reservation lands (i.e. government created ghettos and outdoor prisons for conquered Natives) of already poor, destitute Native Americans. Also colonialism by white Europeans continues against Natives till this day; the Amerikkkan government regularly seizes any wealth found on reservations land such as minerals, etc. and then sells them saying they will "hold" the profits made therein in "trust" for the Native tribe: i.e. the white supremacist government just steals the resources and keeps the profits for themselves!

Free Leonard Peltier and long live the American Indian Movement (AMI)

Reparations are due and you evil white supremacist demons will pay whether you like it or not.

RACE TRAITOR - treason to whiteness is loyalty to humanity

http://racetraitor.org/ A great place for white Europeans with actual souls unlike white supremacist racist Eurocentric evildoers like yourself

Edited by Basra
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Salams,

I applaud you br for confronting this guy, but I don't think it does much good. I am a revert, as many of you know, and I have members of my family who are, ideologically, in synch with this guy. They live in their own little bubble and selectively choose which facts they will consider, and which they won't. Like the others said, which was true, you will be cut off after a few minutes, and they will talk over you and continue with their diatribe. Their ignorance stems from two basic areas. The ignorance is by choice, since we have many resources and access to information in this country that people don't have in most places. First, they are completely ignorant about The Holy Quran and what it does and does not say, and also what the mainstream interpretations of ayats of the Quran are. It is very telling that he stated that he never read the Quran and doesn't need to. So he is saying that the origin of the violent actions is in a book which he has never read. In this way, he is much more ignorant that the average bible-thumper, who will at least bring a few ayats of the Quran regarding warfare, take them out of context, mistranslate them, and they make their claim based on these ayats. He wouldn't even do that.

Second, they are completely ignorant of conditions in the Muslim world. When the OP brought up the point about stereotyping white Army service members based on the actions at Abu Gharib, Ramadi, Guantanamo Bay, etc, the OP was cut off rather quickly and this is usually what happens. He is afraid if the OP starts listing terrorist attacks and incidents committed by White Americans or the U.S. Army or Armed forces, it would be a very, very long list and would take up the entirety of the show (maybe for weeks). They refuse to look at or consider the conditions in the Muslim countries where these terrorist incidents are taking place. They refuse to acknowledge or consider that many muslim countries are occupied by the U.S and other foreign entities, namely the Zionist Regime. This is the genesis of the terrorism. A good proof of this is that before WWII and the creation of the Zionist entity, how many terrorist incidents were there in the U.S or directed against the U.S by muslims. The Quran was the same Quran and Islam was the same Islam at that time as it is now. There are many other proofs, but like I said, I don't think it's worth it, in the vast majority of the cases.

So let me state again, the root of terrorism and violence is injustice, not any book either the Bible or the Quran or any other book.

Like br Malcolm X stated quite clearly, the chickens will come home to roost. They always do. It is just a question of when, and who the parties involved will be.

Edited by Abu Hadi
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Oh brother. so no one thinks islam has any problems, image wise or otherwise? Theres nothing going on in modern islam that should be alarming to Americans?

gimmee a break. With the exception of maybe Indonesia most muslim countries are living about 500 years in the past in terms of economy and civil rights.

How come Americans don't dislike Hindus or asian buddhists?

It's not just foreign policy. Yemen isn't not a glamorous favorite destination of world travelers because the US supports israel.

HOw about accepting some of the blame for your own failures for once? that would be a good step to bridging the gap we are discussing here. instead of giving this tired "angry arab" routine.

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Oh brother. so no one thinks islam has any problems, image wise or otherwise? Theres nothing going on in modern islam that should be alarming to Americans?

Islam to me (and 99% of other muslims) means the guidance given to us by Allah(s.w.a) via the Holy Quran and the actions of the Holy Prophet and his sucessors, the Imams of Ahl Al Bayt (the last part is not agreed on by 99%, but the first part is). The actions of muslims are judged against this standard, as to whether they are 'Islamic' or not. Islam has not changed, since the time of the Prophet(p.b.u.h), so I don't know what you mean by 'modern Islam'? Maybe the actions of some muslims in recent history? Anyway, this is seperate from Islam.

gimmee a break. With the exception of maybe Indonesia most muslim countries are living about 500 years in the past in terms of economy and civil rights.

They are living 500 years in the past in these areas , mostly, because their wealth and rights are usurped from them by, mostly U.S. puppet rulers like Mubark in Egypt,

Abdullah in Saudi Arabia, and Adbullah Salih in Yemen.

How come Americans don't dislike Hindus or asian buddhists?

I think you are making a big generalization there, and his has nothing to do with the topic we are discussing.

It's not just foreign policy. Yemen isn't not a glamorous favorite destination of world travelers because the US supports israel.

No, it is not a glamorous destination due to American support for the dictator Salih who attacks and kills his own people

on a regular basis with U.S. purchased planes, missles, and artillery. Oh, and then there are the U.S. drone strikes

on unarmed civilians. Many other issues also which I think some of our Yemeni members could inform you of.

HOw about accepting some of the blame for your own failures for once? that would be a good step to bridging the gap we are discussing here. instead of giving this tired "angry arab" routine.

I don't know what you mean by 'my own failure'. I have some, but they have nothing to do with this discussion. Oh, and the tired angry arab routine. Just FYI, I am not Arab, and I live in the U.S. You don't need to be Arab to have eyes and ears and be able to think.

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Oh brother. so no one thinks islam has any problems, image wise or otherwise? Theres nothing going on in modern islam that should be alarming to Americans?

gimmee a break. With the exception of maybe Indonesia most muslim countries are living about 500 years in the past in terms of economy and civil rights.

How come Americans don't dislike Hindus or asian buddhists?

It's not just foreign policy. Yemen isn't not a glamorous favorite destination of world travelers because the US supports israel.

HOw about accepting some of the blame for your own failures for once? that would be a good step to bridging the gap we are discussing here. instead of giving this tired "angry arab" routine.

Well you might want to note the countries that are trying to come up in the Muslim World either they are getting bombed back into the stone age or they are being sanctioned to hell and back.

Examples: Lebanon, Iraq and Afghanistan (Bombed to back into the stone ages, then they have a puppet president installed to pacify the general public)

Iran (cannot have a nuclear program because they are "creating a secret nuclear bomb" to wipe the Western World off the map)

I swear if Muslims are conspiracy theorists, it seems that the Western powers that be have a PhD in the field of conspiracy theories.

How come American's don't dislike Hindu's or Asian Buddhists? Are you Serious?

Bro, are you sure you live in America, I have on a number of occassion heard many jokes and jests made towards Hindu's in the United States (Hindu's are the red dotted ones which make for a great aim when target shooting, Buddhist's have the Big Fat dude named Budda they worship)

I'm not going to blame all Muslim issues on the West, I believe certainly in many areas Muslims are too blame but once you realize there is a Global Agenda against Islam because Islam is viewed as a threat to the "free world".

It's hard for us take take seriously the claims leveled against us Muslims and against the Muslim world.

Edited by zzaveri
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), so I don't know what you mean by 'modern Islam'

?? yeah I'm sure you have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm talking about what the talk show host is talking about YOU!

They are living 500 years in the past in these areas , mostly, because their wealth and rights are usurped from them by, mostly U.S. puppet rulers like Mubark in Egypt,

Abdullah in Saudi Arabia, and Adbullah Salih in Yemen

yeah it's everyone elses fault. muslims are perfect it's just the west does all this stuff to them.

I think you are making a big generalization there, and his has nothing to do with the topic we are discussing

no it isn't. no one cares if hindus or buddhist come here because we know they have normal views on economics and womens rights. Muslims don't. It's not a generalization it is apparent in how their countries are run.

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?? yeah I'm sure you have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm talking about what the talk show host is talking about YOU!

yeah it's everyone elses fault. muslims are perfect it's just the west does all this stuff to them.

no it isn't. no one cares if hindus or buddhist come here because we know they have normal views on economics and womens rights. Muslims don't. It's not a generalization it is apparent in how their countries are run.

Please do us a favor and crawl back to your hole of obscurity. Thanks.

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Oh brother. so no one thinks islam has any problems, image wise or otherwise? Theres nothing going on in modern islam that should be alarming to Americans?

gimmee a break. With the exception of maybe Indonesia most muslim countries are living about 500 years in the past in terms of economy and civil rights.

How come Americans don't dislike Hindus or asian buddhists?

It's not just foreign policy. Yemen isn't not a glamorous favorite destination of world travelers because the US supports israel.

HOw about accepting some of the blame for your own failures for once? that would be a good step to bridging the gap we are discussing here. instead of giving this tired "angry arab" routine.

Your a complete clown and Eurocentric racist who simply has no interest in any form of actual intellectual discussion or academic debate. As for your starting claim of Muslims allegedly being "500 years behind" not only is this not true, but the simple fact is the Muslim world was the global leader until the age of European colonialism: http://www.1001inventions.com/ and http://www.muslimheritage.com/. This was again until the colonial dominance of Europe, specifically starting in 1492 with the new Spanish crown of Ferdinand and Isabel (backed by their Spanish Inquisition torturers to weed out Spanish "Marrano" Jews and "Morisco" Muslims; who were Muslims and Jews who had been given the choice of convert to Catholicism, leave Spain, or be killed; the Marranos and Moriscos had decided to convert to Catholicism but the Spanish Inquisition believed they were still secretly practicing Judaism or Islam).

As to why European colonial powers emerged at that time in history, i.e. 1492 to modern times, the reasons for these are analyzed and wonderfully summed up by the work "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by academic Jared Diamond.

http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/

Ggas_human_soc.jpg

Also here is the first part, on youtube, of the documentary of "Guns, Germs, and Steel" (based on the book) starring the author/academic Jared Diamond.

and one of the most important, and relevant to our discussion, segments of this documentary on "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond

As to "civil rights" you sound even more absurd they you usually do! Muslim countries have never had the KKK, Jim Crow laws, lynchings of people based solely on racial hatred like whites did to oppressed blacks in America. Most fights in the "Third World" usually have either been proxy battles backed by Western colonialist powers or local struggles for power and resources that have often been ignited by the legacy of European colonialism that divided the countries of the so-called "Third World"; as this academic says http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/jun/28/comment.britishidentity

Quote- Tolerance? The British empire reinforced strict ethnic/religious identities and governed through these divisions. As with the partition of India when 10 million were displaced, arbitrarily drawn boundaries between "tribes" in Africa resulted in massive displacement and bloodshed.

end quote.

Divide and conquer tactics were huge for European colonialists around the world.

Also as to "civil rights" in Amerikkka you clearly are a white supremacist as I'm sure you don't see the system of institutionalized white supremacy and racism that has first enslaved Africans, then used Jim Crow and lynchings against them, and today locks the majority of them into ghettos in a continuous racist system of white European exploitation and discrimination (the prison industrial complex, CIA/Contras cocaine trafficking in the 1980s and early 1990s written on by researcher, journalist, and author Gary Webb, etc.)

People don't go to Yemen because it is poor as hell, which is mostly to do with the legacy of colonialism, also Yemen has seen frequent conflict that was also aided by white European colonialist powers see British control of Aden, Yemen and on. Again all real academics right of the Western created neo-colonialist phenomenon of the brain drain from recently post-colonial countries in the so-called "Third World" to the once officially colonialist and now imperialist West.

Lastly as to the claims you make, no one is saying Arab and Muslim nations don't have their own problems, but any honest academic would acknowledge the huge and dominant role that racist, exploitative white European colonialism has had on the Middle East (as even the map of today's Middle East region is a fake creation of European colonial powers: namely Britain and France) and the rest of the "Third World".

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?? yeah I'm sure you have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm talking about what the talk show host is talking about YOU!

yeah it's everyone elses fault. muslims are perfect it's just the west does all this stuff to them.

no it isn't. no one cares if hindus or buddhist come here because we know they have normal views on economics and womens rights. Muslims don't. It's not a generalization it is apparent in how their countries are run.

Your a complete fool, according to your stupidity you a white supremacist racist tool allegedly "earned" your ill-gotten inheritances when in reality your evil white European colonialist ancestors (seems like you take a lot from them as well) exterminated Indigenous people, stole their land, and then had African slaves build your entire United States of Amerikkka society and then you inherited the rewards of this and the white supremacist colonial system created by your white European ancestors.

revcom David Horowitz on Slavery: “Where’s the Gratitude?”

Quote- There have been many studies attempting to quantify the theft of income and wealth created by Black labor over the past fifteen generations. According to David H. Swinton, President of Benedict College in Columbia, South Carolina, one researcher has calculated that the 1983 value of the slave labor expropriated by whites from 1620 to 1865 ranges from nearly $1 trillion to as much as $97 trillion, depending on the rate of interest chosen for the long intervening period. (See Swinton’s essay cited by Joe Feagin in “Documenting the Costs of Slavery, Segregation, and Contemporary Racism: Why Reparations Are in Order for African Americans,” Harvard Blackletter Law Journal, vol. 20, 2004).

end quote.

Also again the white European Christian run Atlantic slave trade killed at least 30 million or even up to 60 million poor, oppressed black Africans.

As to your last racist, ignorant statement towards Muslims in the West (putting aside the fact that colonialism and the brain drain has forced many of them into the West and you as white supremacist European evildoer should go back to Europe where you invaded from and stole Indigenous land) what problem do you allegedly have with Muslim "economic and women" views?! Muslims have a wide range of economic philosophies from people who support socialist economic viewpoints right up to people who believe in "capitalist" economic views (side note of course built on the back of African slaves enslaved in the Atlantic slave trade by your evil white European Christian ancestors)! There is no one Muslim "economic" view, unless your against the fact that Muslims don't allow exploitative usury, which is one thing even many non-Muslims admire about Islamic laws regarding economics. As for women; are you against Muslim women's human right to wear their hijab (head covering) or something?! You do know Catholic nuns still were their own head cover; but I guess your okay with this as they are mostly white Europeans (following a religion made up of and run mostly by white Europeans) and you support anyone who is white as you clearly are a racist Eurocentric apologist.

A Catholic nun in America

medium_nun.jpg

Your kidding only yourself if you try to claim that Amerikkka is allegedly a "beacon" of "women's rights"! Again simply take a look at the statistics in Amerikkka of rape crimes, sexual harassment, domestic violence, STD rates, divorce rates, anorexia and bulimia in young Amerikkkan women, and on. Again all real academics admit the reason people come to the imperialist West is largely because of the legacy of colonialism and today's neo-colonialist brain drain that comes as a result of the fact that white Europeans stole all the resources of the people in the so-called "Third World" you clown! This is why Amerikkka and the West most only take the best and brightest from the recently post-colonial nations in the so-called "Third World". As this reinforces the colonialist Western exploitative system as the West steals the few people that these poor recently post-colonial countries can develop and thus gets their works, inventions, etc. to become "property" of Western nations while also making sure the "Third World" remains subservient to the West and thus a self-reinforcing cycle is formed of the best and brightest leaving and not fixing up their homeland for the next generation.

Again: chowk WESTERN IMPERIALISM: It’s Causes, and It’s Impact on the World

Quote- The Riches of the World Must Flow West...At All Costs

The transfer of wealth still continues from the neo-colonies to the West in the form of raw materials, agricultural products, cash receipts from the sales of weapons and over-priced manufactured goods, looted wealth by puppet regimes and corrupt elites, and from the brain drain of what little professionals these under-developed countries could produce from their limited capital resources.

end quote.

Also the academic Sut Jhally did a good analysis of the stress and torture many young women in Amerikkka live under in a society (Amerikkka) that so heavily sexual objectives women.

[ mod note: i deleted the above link because it contains some inappropriate material for an Islamic web site. We get your point, though ]

(The above video gives a shocking statistic showing that at least 20% of women in the United States have been victims of sexual assault and this number has been on the rise as of late)

So do you have anything to offer other then your silly generalizations and false propaganda against Muslims?!

Edited by Abu Hadi
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?? yeah I'm sure you have no idea what I'm talking about. I'm talking about what the talk show host is talking about YOU!

Well, that really clears it up for me? :unsure: . I,m guessing English isn't your first language.

yeah it's everyone elses fault. muslims are perfect it's just the west does all this stuff to them.

I didn't say muslims are perfect, I said Islam is perfect. They are two different things. Islam has a divine origin, and thus reflects the Divine perfection. Muslims are people and people are imperfect, people of all religions. You missed my main point. If a muslim commits an act of violence, or another stupid or foolish act, this has nothing to do with Islam since Islam does not sanction foolishness or stupidity, and violence is carried out under very strict and clear guidelines which non-muslims (and many muslims also) don't know about since they don't bother to study the Quran and Sunnat of the Prophet and Imams that they love to criticize so much.

If a muslim beats his wife, does an 'honor killing' (which is not honorable and is haram and against Islam), steals money from someone, does fraud, does something stupid in traffic and gets into an accident, etc, then this is not the fault of Mubarak, the U.S. or global Zionism. It is his/her own fault. This should be obvious and not the subject we are discussing. If a man (or women) is law abiding, educated, and has the required skills and cannot find a job or support their family in their own country, has to pass thru many checkpoint, being humiliated along the way and then miss their job or study because of this, has their loved one or entire family wipe out by 'collateral damage' , cannot run their business due to not being able to get inventory or their customers not being able to get to them, cannot send their children to a safe school where they can learn, etc, etc

Then this is not their own fault, but the fault of their government and collaborating governments that work together to 'strangle' certain groups or nations that will not go along with their 'program'. This is a reality in the world today, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

no it isn't. no one cares if hindus or buddhist come here because we know they have normal views on economics and womens rights. Muslims don't. It's not a generalization it is apparent in how their countries are run.

OK, then you have a short memory .

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/P/r/Propaganda.htm

Japanese are asian buddists (for the most part). Check out some of these posters from not too long ago, which were plastered on every street corner in the U.S. during my grandfathers day.

Edited by Abu Hadi
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I am Texan... so what? It's all psychology my friend. With right wing nut jobs like this the only way he would have me on his show for so long is if he liked me. I didn't lie to him I am a Texan and I do love being a Texan and living in Texas.

Call me Muslim Redneck if you will! :)

The only way these rednecks will understand anything is if you speak to them in their own language.

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Plus I would rather live in America (A Non-Muslim Country) than live in Saudi Arabia (Muslim Country) because of their hatred and malice towards the Shia'. Living in America is much better than living in a lot of Muslim countries. No doubt about that!

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yeah it's everyone elses fault. muslims are perfect it's just the west does all this stuff to them.

In this current situation, yes of course Saudi King and Mubarak are held responsible for their crimes. But who backs them? Where does their power trace back? The United Fascist States of America!

And this isn't news to the world, America has puppets from Colombia to Vietnam.

and if everyone hates America so much what do you have to say to the topic starter who assures the host that he is as Texan as he is?

We has human beings are not bound to nationality. Whether we were born in Nazi Germany, Israel or Fascist USA, we will continue to ridicule it.

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(salam)

Bro Zzaveri,

You may want to check this topic out

We can all learn from him.

Good Stuff!

You see how powerful that was coming from a white man. He did a great job illustrating the "Wahhabi" influence on radicalism from within Islam.

If I were to do that and they find out that I am a Shia I can easily be discredited, because I am biased, but a white man saying something it would have a more profound influence.

If I were Sunni my word will carry more weight but being Shia' there's no way.

If you guys/girls have facebook share this on your facebook. Thanks for sharing Zareen!

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