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In the Name of God بسم الله
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Jay

Existence Before Existence?

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A simple question;

Do you believe, that at some period in time, there was absolutely nothing in this world? Explain.

To my knowledge, everything has a source. If the above question is answered no, you need to come up with a logical explanation as to how something can happen without being formed, made, created, etc.

If the question is answered yes, how exactly do I exist if there was nothing to begin with?

Try to exclude God in your answer.

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Causality doesn't necessarily exist as a relation in the world.

Like you stated "To my knowledge, everything has a source."

Using knowledge as a quantifier we are limited in our understanding of the world.

Hume said it best when he claimed that we only ever see one event preceding another event;

we explain this relation in terms of causality, but it is a human construct derived from human conceptions, and limited to human experience.

As far as 'nothing' in concerned; I'm content in saying that it too is a human construct;

This might be an overreaching claim but I want to say something along the lines that there is no real empirical thing as "nothing".

The concept of "nothing" as understood to be devoid of everything, devoid of anything physical, in opposition to something seems to be incoherent.

To understand nothing in this sense seems contradictory, it even presupposes a 'something' in order to refer to it as nothing, but then what is that 'something' to which I'm referring to?...

Do you believe, that at some period in time, there was absolutely nothing in this world?

No, the concept of 'nothing' seems incoherent or leads to a contradiction.

I'm satisfied in saying that within space there is always something, this something that preceded the creation of this world was most likely random quantum fluctuations.

Edited by N-E-R-D

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A simple question;

Do you believe, that at some period in time, there was absolutely nothing in this world? Explain.

To my knowledge, everything has a source. If the above question is answered no, you need to come up with a logical explanation as to how something can happen without being formed, made, created, etc.

If the question is answered yes, how exactly do I exist if there was nothing to begin with?

Because nothing comes out of nothing, there has never been nothing, something has always existed.

Because energy exists, energy has always existed. It has merely changed in form.

(This is the proof of First Thermodynamics.)

The Big Bang is a process that happened to existing energy / matter.

Wslm.

*

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A simple question;

Do you believe, that at some period in time, there was absolutely nothing in this world? Explain.

To my knowledge, everything has a source. If the above question is answered no, you need to come up with a logical explanation as to how something can happen without being formed, made, created, etc.

If the question is answered yes, how exactly do I exist if there was nothing to begin with?

Try to exclude God in your answer.

As one with of the Ideal-Forms of Plato. As part of the supra-existence

As one with the Pneuma of the Stoics

Edited by JimJam

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Causality doesn't necessarily exist as a relation in the world.

Like you stated "To my knowledge, everything has a source."

Using knowledge as a quantifier we are limited in our understanding of the world.

Hume said it best when he claimed that we only ever see one event preceding another event;

we explain this relation in terms of causality, but it is a human construct derived from human conceptions, and limited to human experience.

As far as 'nothing' in concerned; I'm content in saying that it too is a human construct;

This might be an overreaching claim but I want to say something along the lines that there is no real empirical thing as "nothing".

The concept of "nothing" as understood to be devoid of everything, devoid of anything physical, in opposition to something seems to be incoherent.

To understand nothing in this sense seems contradictory, it even presupposes a 'something' in order to refer to it as nothing, but then what is that 'something' to which I'm referring to?...

No, the concept of 'nothing' seems incoherent or leads to a contradiction.

I'm satisfied in saying that within space there is always something, this something that preceded the creation of this world was most likely random quantum fluctuations.

Next this atheist will go from something to oscillating universe and remove the bigbang. quantum fluctuation is just another name for oscillating universe.

beware, they hate causality and the bigbang.

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As far as 'nothing' in concerned; I'm content in saying that it too is a human construct;

This might be an overreaching claim but I want to say something along the lines that there is no real empirical thing as "nothing".

The concept of "nothing" as understood to be devoid of everything, devoid of anything physical, in opposition to something seems to be incoherent.

To understand nothing in this sense seems contradictory, it even presupposes a 'something' in order to refer to it as nothing, but then what is that 'something' to which I'm referring to?...

I dont think it is

Nothing is the word given when there does not exist any particles or things that we know of or can even conceive of

That is nothing

I'm satisfied in saying that within space there is always something, this something that preceded the creation of this world was most likely random quantum fluctuations.

I am satisfied too, but we are trying to think beyond this space.

This answer raises more questions than the notion of God

The Big Bang is a process that happened to existing energy / matter.

More of a scientific matter, but how can the universe then be thought of being infinite?

But anyway, I think you are very limiting your thought with the First law. There is still a possibility of existence beyond energy and matter.

Edited by Incognito

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Using knowledge as a quantifier we are limited in our understanding of the world. . .

...we only ever see one event preceding another event;

we explain this relation in terms of causality, but it is a human construct derived from human conceptions, and limited to human experience.

This - more than less - was the beginning of my becoming a Christian. You acknowledge this truth and are satisfied (your word) with fluctuations only vaguely confirmed in a questionable theory of lower-level particle mechanics? You must see that the answer from quantum mechanics is just an inductively weaker answer of exactingly the same kind as the concept of causality combined with the principle that ex nihilo nihil fit. Quantum fluctuations is an answer based upon our limited knowledge and conceptions at this time. Do you believe that in two hundred years men shall be satisfied (it is your word) as you are now that quantum fluctuations is our answer? I believe quantum mechanics shall be to them as the Newtonian universe is to us - if there is ever again any as original as Einstein willing to propose something different and outside of the boundaries set by our present assumptions and preferred lines of thought.

At the very least the argument from causality has antiquity and a widespread epistemological and historical presence. In almost any civilization that had men devoted to thought it has found place. Many hold it today as many held it one thousand years ago - or four hundred Ante Christvm Natvm and further back.

Edited by peccator

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This - more than less - was the beginning of my becoming a Christian.

I have had some scruple about having written this. I shall clarify. It was not Hume's thoughts on causality that was the beginning. It was the recognition of the limits of our knowledge and especially the empirical and experienced; and the tendency to repair to making generalisations laws because of our immense and obvious limitations in observing of the universe. There is more to what unsettled me but this was the first step - to see science as it is and not as it is popularly presented ("Science is all empirical and observable and inescapable fact. In time science shall provide all answers on everything. It makes me an atheist or agnostic" and ectera). I save the rest (the more I wrote of) - and particular examples and illustrations - to a later intended post in an appropriate topic I have in mind.

Edited by peccator

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I have had some scruple about having written this. I shall clarify. It was not Hume's thoughts on causality that was the beginning. It was the recognition of the limits of our knowledge and especially the empirical and experienced; and the tendency to repair to making generalisations laws because of our immense and obvious limitations in observing of the universe. There is more to what unsettled me but this was the first step - to see science as it is and not as it is popularly presented ("Science is all empirical and observable and inescapable fact. In time science shall provide all answers on everything. It makes me an atheist or agnostic" and ectera). I save the rest (the more I wrote of) - and particular examples and illustrations - to a later intended post in an appropriate topic I have in mind.

Know then thyself, presume not God to scan

The proper study of mankind is man.

Placed on this isthmus of a middle state,

A being darkly wise, and rudely great:

With too much knowledge for the sceptic side,

With too much weakness for the stoic’s pride,

He hangs between; in doubt to act, or rest;

In doubt to deem himself a God, or beast;

In doubt his mind and body to prefer;

Born but to die, and reas’ning but to err;

Alike in ignorance, his reason such,

Whether he thinks to little, or too much;

Chaos of thought and passion, all confus’d;

Still by himself, abus’d or disabus’d;

Created half to rise and half to fall;

Great lord of all things, yet a prey to all,

Sole judge of truth, in endless error hurl’d;

The glory, jest and riddle of the world.

(Alexander Pope)

And does Christianity solve your problem?

*

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öDear friend

according to ghoran,Hadis and scholars discussions( I can refer you to online resources )

I can provide you with some statement which are not mine of course..........

first of all we need to define the word existence :

according to resources above there are different dimensions or as ghoran says 7 sky (i can tell you about them if you ask )

like nasoot (äÇÓæÊi) , jabaroot(ÌÈÑæÊ), malakoon(ãá˜æÊ) etc ..........

the last of them is the material world(which we live in)

and all others are called as the world of singles(ãÌÑÏÇÊ).

the world of singles which include angels has been created before our material world.

So........

By the word existence if you mean material world then:

the answer is yes before material world there has been the world of singles.

and if you say how did God create the first electron which is the basic of material the answer is very simple

being God means to create things out of nothing.

And if you ask how did it start i refer you to äåÌ ÇáÈáÇÛå¡ ÎØÈåþی 1.

and . ÇäÈیÇÁ/30.

http://zolala.blogfa.com/post-353.aspx

and so many other resources talking about the beginning of our world creation.

.

.

.

and if.......

you mean the world of singles by the word existence then:

I need to tell you that first of all there was Allah(God)

and then he created the first world(also referd to as sky or dimension )

which is called nasoot(äÇÓæÊ) which is God specific.

then the next and next......until he created our world(the material world)

if you ask : ok then what was before God at the beginning?

I tell you:

In the world of singles there is no time or place or a thing as we have in ours

our body is related to material world and our spirit related to world of singles.

so you can never ask "when God was there first? ,every thing has a beginning"

because you use the word "when" if there is a time!!!

there is no time in nasoot .so we can say he has always been there....

I can tell you much more about all the thing above because i have researched a little about it some time ago

let me know if you are intrested:blush:

take care

may Allah bless you

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Quisant - at last you reply to me, in this thread, with part of a Pope poem?

And does Christianity solve your problem?

*

You have asked it poorly but to what you intended I answer, if it is true - yes. Obviously so. If you are sincere you must admit it to be.

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Quisant - at last you reply to me, in this thread, with part of a Pope poem?

You have asked it poorly but to what you intended I answer, if it is true - yes. Obviously so. If you are sincere you must admit it to be.

My "other life" is very busy at the moment, I am unable to have a meaningful presence in the Forum.

All I can do is "curtain twitch" on conversations.

Welcome to Shia Chat, I hope you have a good time.

Wslm.

*

Edited by Quisant

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(salam)

... this something that preceded the creation of this world was most likely random quantum fluctuations.

In terms of probability, random quantum fluctuations are not enough to bring an entire universe into being, even over the course of billions of years...

I dont think it is

Nothing is the word given when there does not exist any particles or things that we know of or can even conceive of

That is nothing

Nothing would not only be the absence of particles, but also time and space.. which makes no sense to us (as "N-E-R-D" was trying to say), but is befitting of God who is not limited by what He created~

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