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shiasoldier786

Two Iranian Grand Ayatollahs Fatwa On Quran Burnin

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Two Iranian grand ayatollahs issued fatwas calling for the killing of those who insult the Koran, including anyone who burns the Islamic holy book, the state-run Fars news agency reported.

No one was specified in the decrees, which were issued by Nasser Makarem-Shirazi and Hossein Nouri-Hamedani in response to questions asked by student groups from universities in Tehran, Fars said. Such an action against any individual could only be carried out with the authorization of an Islamic religious judge, they said.

“Undoubtedly, the blood of a person who burns the Koran should be shed,” Makarem-Shirazi was cited by Fars as saying. Everybody should “strongly condemn” such an act.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-13/iran-ayatollahs-issue-fatwa-calling-for-killing-those-who-burn-the-koran.html

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Will someone rid us of these meddlesome priests?

There is no priesthood in Islam.

There is the ulema. As you probably know, ulema is the plural of alim, which means 'learned.' We have a group of people who are learned about Islamic ideology and doctrine. And we respect them for this. But other than their knowledge, they have no special status and we do not consider them to be on a higher spiritual plane (unless they achieve this through their knowledge). Anyone who is willing to spend some time studying at a hawzah can become an alim. If you went to hawza in Qom right now and said you want to study there, they would slap a ammameh on your head and admit you, free of charge. We don't have an elaborate, arbitrary, exploitative clergy like the Catholics do. Nor do we have the nonsensical "priesthood of all believers" of the Protestants. We have knowledgeable people, and we have easy access to the educational establishments through which we can become knowledgeable ourselves.

Once again, you are projecting your Christian inadequacies on us.

And we should not rid ourselves of so-called 'meddling priests.' We should rid ourselves of meddling 'civilizers' who have nothing but contempt for us and our religion.

Moving on... since these Western news sources constantly have news items related to Islam, they need to learn the correct definition of the word fatwa. What these clerics have issued are not fatawa. They are hukm (sentence). Idiots need to at least get their terminology right if they want to proceed with their elaborate propaganda scheme.

Ya Ali

Edited by baradar_jackson

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There is no priesthood in Islam.

There is the ulema. As you probably know, ulema is the plural of alim, which means 'learned.' We have a group of people who are learned about Islamic ideology and doctrine. And we respect them for this. But other than their knowledge, they have no special status and we do not consider them to be on a higher spiritual plane (unless they achieve this through their knowledge). Anyone who is willing to spend some time studying at a hawzah can become an alim. If you went to hawza in Qom right now and said you want to study there, they would slap a ammameh on your head and admit you, free of charge. We don't have an elaborate, arbitrary, exploitative clergy like the Catholics do. Nor do we have the nonsensical "priesthood of all believers" of the Protestants. We have knowledgeable people, and we have easy access to the educational establishments through which we can become knowledgeable ourselves.

Once again, you are projecting your Christian inadequacies on us.

And we should not rid ourselves of so-called 'meddling priests.' We should rid ourselves of meddling 'civilizers' who have nothing but contempt for us and our religion.

Moving on... since these Western news sources constantly have news items related to Islam, they need to learn the correct definition of the word fatwa. What these clerics have issued are not fatawa. They are hukm (sentence). Idiots need to at least get their terminology right if they want to proceed with their elaborate propaganda scheme.

Ya Ali

Well said.

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salam.gif

I have read the Urdu translation of the two fatawa, and there is certainly more to the rulings than just "Undoubtedly, the blood of a person who burns the Koran should be shed."

Anyway I would like someone to translate them, so we could be sure as to what the Ayatollahs have actually said.

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It's a lie.

آیت الله مکارم شیرازی :

بسمه تعالی

بدون شک آتش زدن قرآن مجید سبب می‌شود که شخص مرتکب آن مهدورالدم باشد ولی در اینگونه موارد بدون اجازه حاکم شرع نباید هیچگونه اقدامی صورت گیرد.

البته همه باید آن را شدیدا محکوم نمایند.

Ayatullah Makarem Shirazi:

In the Name of the Most High,

Without a doubt, the burning of the Noble Qur`an is a cause for the person who carried it out to become "mahdoor-eldam" (i.e. shedding their blood is permissible) - however, in these cases without the permission from the hakim shar` no kind of action should take place.

Albeit, everyone should severely condemn them.

Coupled with Khamenei's [and Sistani's] statements, nothing more to say..

*Sigh* you'd think they've learnt their lesson after the Salman Rushdi incident

*sigh* you'd think they've learnt their lesson after all the BS comes out of these agencies to not so eagerly embrace them?

Edited by The Persian Shah

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^ http://www.farsnews.net/newstext.php?nn=8906221153

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Nouri Hamedani's fatwa is much harsher. Also the article mentions "Such an action against any individual could only be carried out with the authorization of an Islamic religious judge, they said". So I don't really see any lie in the report. The only thing you could fault is the wording of its title.

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There is no priesthood in Islam.

There is the ulema. As you probably know, ulema is the plural of alim, which means 'learned.' We have a group of people who are learned about Islamic ideology and doctrine. And we respect them for this. But other than their knowledge, they have no special status and we do not consider them to be on a higher spiritual plane (unless they achieve this through their knowledge). Anyone who is willing to spend some time studying at a hawzah can become an alim. If you went to hawza in Qom right now and said you want to study there, they would slap a ammameh on your head and admit you, free of charge. We don't have an elaborate, arbitrary, exploitative clergy like the Catholics do. Nor do we have the nonsensical "priesthood of all believers" of the Protestants. We have knowledgeable people, and we have easy access to the educational establishments through which we can become knowledgeable ourselves.

Once again, you are projecting your Christian inadequacies on us.

And we should not rid ourselves of so-called 'meddling priests.' We should rid ourselves of meddling 'civilizers' who have nothing but contempt for us and our religion.

Wow. Congratulations on missing the point by 150 miles.

Good one.

It's a lie.

آیت الله مکارم شیرازی :

بسمه تعالی

بدون شک آتش زدن قرآن مجید سبب می‌شود که شخص مرتکب آن مهدورالدم باشد ولی در اینگونه موارد بدون اجازه حاکم شرع نباید هیچگونه اقدامی صورت گیرد.

البته همه باید آن را شدیدا محکوم نمایند.

Ayatullah Makarem Shirazi:

In the Name of the Most High,

Without a doubt, the burning of the Noble Qur`an is a cause for the person who carried it out to become "mahdoor-eldam" (i.e. shedding their blood is permissible) - however, in these cases without the permission from the hakim shar` no kind of action should take place.

Albeit, everyone should severely condemn them.

Coupled with Khamenei's [and Sistani's] statements, nothing more to say..

*sigh* you'd think they've learnt their lesson after all the BS comes out of these agencies to not so eagerly embrace them?

I see. So it's not actually a "hukm" of death. Just a casual statement that those who do so deserve a "hukm" of death.

Well that's much better.

Edited by kadhim

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I see. So it's not actually a "hukm" of death. Just a casual statement that those who do so deserve a "hukm" of death.

Well that's much better.

Nouri Hamedani is saying killing those people is wajib, but needs authorization from Hakim Shar.

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Nouri Hamedani's fatwa is much harsher.

No, it's actually exactly the same..

I see. So it's not actually a "hukm" of death. Just a casual statement that those who do so deserve a "hukm" of death.

Well that's much better.

Go bring some useful to the table rather than cries due to it not conforming to your taste..

Edited by The Persian Shah

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People say that Ayatollah Montazeri was naive, but every day he looks more and more perceptive especially compared to those who thought him naive. He may have said that people were starting to get the idea that our business in Iran is just murdering people, but if you replace Iran with Islam and starting with are having cemented you have today's situation. And then tomorrow we will be trying to tell people that Islam is peaceful and will wonder why no one believes us. It is frustrating to me when people make these types of pronouncements when it is those of us who live in the West have to deal with the negative consequences of.

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Wow. Congratulations on missing the point by 150 miles.

Good one.

What was your point then?

Enlighten me. Or, rather, civilize me. Since I know you're into that sort of thing.

People say that Ayatollah Montazeri was naive, but every day he looks more and more perceptive especially compared to those who thought him naive. He may have said that people were starting to get the idea that our business in Iran is just murdering people, but if you replace Iran with Islam and starting with are having cemented you have today's situation. And then tomorrow we will be trying to tell people that Islam is peaceful and will wonder why no one believes us. It is frustrating to me when people make these types of pronouncements when it is those of us who live in the West have to deal with the negative consequences of.

I have a solution: stop being such a lapdog. Stop trying so hard to be accepted.

Anyway, this isn't coming out of the IRI Foreign Ministry. It's coming out of the mouths of some scholars. In the IRI, there is something called FREEDOM OF SPEECH (remember that thing? :lol: ). Whereas in Europe there is the freedom to insult the Prophet of Islam (pbuh), in Iran there is the freedom to insult those who talk of burning the Quran.

But even if it was Ramin Mehmamparast who was saying these things, so what? It is not the IRI's job to help you be accepted by your white friends any more than it is the Western media's job to present an accurate picture of the IRI. Everybody has their roles.

Ya Ali

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What was your point then?

Enlighten me. Or, rather, civilize me. Since I know you're into that sort of thing.

These two """scholars""" are detriments to Islam. That is the point.

Edited by kadhim

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But even if it was Ramin Mehmamparast who was saying these things, so what? It is not the IRI's job to help you be accepted by your white friends any more than it is the Western media's job to present an accurate picture of the IRI. Everybody has their roles.

What does race have to do with this?

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Some random village in Florida has got publicity (which is all they wanted) because of the stupidity of Muslims. If people had remained silent and not made such a big deal out of it, then nothing would have happened.

And besides, Uthman burnt the Qur'an 1400 years ago, and no Muslims are condemning him for that.

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Does no one know what happened in the battle of Siffin? Did Imam Ali do anything? Imam Ali still urged people to fight on despite the pages of the Quran being on the lances. By Muslims retaliating or getting worked up over this issue it is to our disadvantage as our enemies are happy now.

Edited by Hawraa29

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These two """scholars""" are detriments to Islam. That is the point.

Then you, with your infinite knowledge, should correct them. In fact, you should do it right here on this website, for dawah purposes.

That is, of course, if you have an Islamic counterargument to them.

Frankly, I think you are a wannabe Islamic Martin Luther, and thus I am not gonna take you on your word when you say that something is to the detriment to Islam.

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Baradar,

Are you really that clueless? These types of statements are detrimental to open minded people accepting Islam. If you don't think that this type of thing has a negative effect on inviting people to Islam then you have never done dawa. Secondly, if you are trying to build a mosque or think tank or research institute in the West these things make it more difficult and makes reasonable people less supportive. People start asking, and rightfully so, why they should be tolerant of us when we are not tolerant of them. This stuff straight up harms the growth of western Muslim communities. And if our scholars are harming us instead of helping us I think we seriously need to reconsider our connections to them, particularly financial ones that help support them.

I also don't know what you are talking about Iran for. I clearly said the quote is applicable if you replace the word Iran with Islam. And trust me, I have spent a lot of time in Iran and know just how much freedom of speech there really is. Finally, for the record, I am white and one side of my family is 100% English so if you are trying to appeal to some sort of anti-white sentiment you can take it somewhere else.

Persian shah,

You are correct, peace is not silence, but neither is the only option other than silence saying that people deserve to be killed.

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Then you, with your infinite knowledge, should correct them. In fact, you should do it right here on this website, for dawah purposes.

That is, of course, if you have an Islamic counterargument to them.

Frankly, I think you are a wannabe Islamic Martin Luther, and thus I am not gonna take you on your word when you say that something is to the detriment to Islam.

I don't need infinite knowledge to realize it's INSANE to say that someone deserves to die for destroying a book, regardless of what book it is.

There's nothing more to say.

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I don't need infinite knowledge to realize it's INSANE to say that someone deserves to die for destroying a book, regardless of what book it is.

There's nothing more to say.

(salam)

brother i'm with you on the whole peaceful approach, but i still think it will be pointed out that what they are doing(/have done/want to do) is a big sin, and there is little doubt that they will get punished for it in the next life.

on a more basic level, its really rude to go about doing this, they are obviously trying to make a statement, but all that said it is true that if we showed retraint, we would shame them through our example.

Edited by ShahHussain

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(salam)

I would let Allah swt deal with people who disrespect HIS message.

Ayat Seestani urged restraint.

"We denounce the assault on the Holy Quran and stress the importance of not letting this occur," he said in a statement released on Thursday night.

The cleric also stressed that Muslims around the world should not react to the US pastor's insulting move in a violent manner.

"We urge Muslims, wherever they are, to exercise the utmost restraint," dpa quoted the cleric as saying.

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If they're think people should die for setting pieces of paper on fire, then, yes.

It's not a debate of what I think, you think, they think, it's a matter of what Islam thinks. That is the only criteria and merit on this issue, period. Like I said, if you have nothing useful (evidence), then no wants to hear your worthless žann..

You are correct, peace is not silence, but neither is the only option other than silence saying that people deserve to be killed.

I'm glad you agree on this. I'm confused why you say the latter is the "only option" though - that's an interesting position. If it is the only option, the first being dismissed due to be inadmissible, then you couldn't do anything else anyway? :huh:

I don't need infinite knowledge to realize it's INSANE to say that someone deserves to die for destroying a book, regardless of what book it is.

You do realise your extension in accusation now includes people like the Seal of the Prophets [sAWS], and Amir Al-Mumineen [AS]? The level of your inferiority complex [oghdeh] is truly a wonder..

I would let Allah swt deal with people who disrespect HIS message.

Another fairytale alternative..

Ayat Seestani urged restraint.

I agree, although his statement was issued before the actual incident. It would be interesting to see if issues another, and if so, what he says..

On the other hand, Imam Khamenei [HA] - hakim shar` for many - issued his statement post-incident whilst also urging restraint, so these two pretty much do close the debate..

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It's not a debate of what I think, you think, they think, it's a matter of what Islam thinks. That is the only criteria and merit on this issue, period. Like I said, if you have nothing useful (evidence), then no wants to hear your worthless žann..

Bull. Islam teaches no such thing. Curses be upon the liars.

You do realise your extension in accusation now includes people like the Seal of the Prophets [sAWS], and Amir Al-Mumineen [AS]? The level of your inferiority complex [oghdeh] is truly a wonder..

Utter nonsense.

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I'm glad you agree on this. I'm confused why you say the latter is the "only option" though - that's an interesting position. If it is the only option, the first being dismissed due to be inadmissible, then you couldn't do anything else anyway?

The key word in my sentence was neither. It was perhaps not the clearest sentence. In any case, it should be obvious that there are many other options than the one taken.

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