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In the Name of God بسم الله

Hud --- Surah 11

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--- I believe that our perception today is sufficient for us to understand the message of this Surah.

Let's discuss it, --- and see if we agree that this is a message for all mankind.

In the Khalifa translation: 11:1-24.

1. A.L.R. This is a scripture whose verses have been perfected, then elucidated. It comes from a Most Wise, Most Cognizant.

2. Proclaiming: "You shall not worship except GOD. I come to you from Him as a warner, as well as a bearer of good news.

3. "You shall seek your Lord's forgiveness, then repent to Him. He will then bless you generously for a predetermined period, and bestow His grace upon those who deserve it. If you turn away, then I fear for you the retribution of an awesome day."

4. To GOD is your ultimate return, and He is Omnipotent.

5. Indeed, they hide their innermost thoughts, as if to keep Him from knowing them. In fact, as they cover themselves with their clothes, He knows all their secrets and declarations. He knows the innermost thoughts.

6. There is not a creature on earth whose provision is not guaranteed by GOD. And He knows its course and its final destiny. All are recorded in a profound record.

7. He is the One who created the heavens and the earth in six days - and His (earthly) domain was completely covered with water - in order to test you, to distinguish those among you who work righteousness. Yet, when you say, "You will be resurrected after death," those who disbelieve would say, "This is clearly witchcraft."

8. And if we delay the retribution they have incurred - for we reserve it for a specific community - they say, "What is keeping Him?" In fact, once it comes to them, nothing can stop it, and their mocking will come back to haunt them.

9. Whenever we bless the human being with mercy from us, then remove it, he turns despondent, unappreciative.

10. Whenever we bless him, after adversity had afflicted him, he says, "All adversity has gone away from me;" he becomes excited, proud.

11. As for those who steadfastly persevere, and lead a righteous life, they deserve forgiveness and a generous recompense.

12. You may wish to disregard some of that which is revealed to you, and you may be annoyed by it. Also, they may say, "How come no treasure comes down to him, or an angel?" You are only a warner; GOD controls all things.

13. If they say, "He fabricated (the Quran)," tell them, "Then produce ten suras like these, fabricated, and invite whomever you can, other than GOD, if you are truthful."

14. If they fail to meet your challenge, then know that this is revealed with GOD's knowledge, and that there is no god except He. Will you then submit?

15. Those who pursue this worldly life and its material vanities, we will pay them for their works in this life, without the least reduction.

16. It is they who gave up their share in the Hereafter, and, consequently, Hell is their lot. All their works are in vain; everything they have done is nullified.

17. As for those who are given solid proof from their Lord, reported by a witness from Him, and before it, the book of Moses has set a precedent and a mercy, they will surely believe. As for those who disbelieve among the various groups, Hell is awaiting them. Do not harbor any doubt; this is the truth from your Lord, but most people disbelieve.

18. Who are more evil than those who fabricate lies about GOD? They will be presented before their Lord, and the witnesses will say, "These are the ones who lied about their Lord. GOD's condemnation has befallen the transgressors."

19. They repel from the way of GOD and seek to make it crooked, and they are disbelievers in the Hereafter.

20. These will never escape, nor will they find any lords or masters to help them against GOD. Retribution will be doubled for them. They have failed to hear, and they have failed to see.

21. These are the ones who lose their souls, and the idols they had fabricated will disown them.

22. There is no doubt that, in the Hereafter, they will be the worst losers.

23. As for those who believe and lead a righteous life, and devote themselves to their Lord, they are the dwellers of Paradise; they abide therein forever.

24. The example of these two groups is like the blind and deaf, compared to the seer and hearer. Are they equal? Would you not take heed?

Placid

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To begin our discussion, let's start with the first two verses:

--- I like the simple writing of the Khalifa translation and the emphasis that he gives in capitalizing GOD, --- as the worship of GOD is the focal point of this portion of Surah 11.

1. A.L.R. This is a scripture whose verses have been perfected, then elucidated. It comes from a Most Wise, Most Cognizant.

2. Proclaiming: "You shall not worship except GOD. I come to you from Him as a warner, as well as a bearer of good news.

Yusuf Ali says in verse 1:

(This is) a Book, with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning), further explained in detail,

And he says in verse 2:

(It teacheth) that ye should worship none but God. (Say): "Verily I am (sent) unto you from Him to warn and to bring glad tidings.

This is a late Meccan Surah --- so it was revealed in Mecca while still among the idolaters.

It repeats a verse in an earlier Surah, 34:28, which says:

And We have not sent thee (O Muhammad) save as a bringer of good tidings and a warner unto all mankind; but most of mankind know not.

--- Therefore, this is the message of 'good news,' or 'good tidings' that Muhammad was to deliver from God, as the message to all mankind.

Muhammad was among both believers and idolaters, and there may have been some Jews and Christians in Mecca at that time as well.

Therefore, as it spoke to them in that day, it can speak to us today.

However, if Muhammad was bringing the 'good news,' to those who would believe, --- he was also a 'warner,' giving the warning of consequences for those who heard, but did not believe.

--- Your comments.

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To continue with verses 3-4:

2. Proclaiming: "You shall not worship except GOD. I come to you from Him as a warner, as well as a bearer of good news.

3. "You shall seek your Lord's forgiveness, then repent to Him. He will then bless you generously for a predetermined period, and bestow His grace upon those who deserve it. If you turn away, then I fear for you the retribution of an awesome day."

4. To GOD is your ultimate return, and He is Omnipotent.

(Verse 3 is the good news from verse 2.)

Notice that this is the 'good news for all mankind.' Verse 3 says:

First, --- 'You shall seek your Lord's forgiveness' --- for sins, faults, failings, predjudices, etc.

Second, --- 'You shall repent to Him (God).

--- To repent means to regret past sins, and to change one's actions because of regretted past sins.

You can ask forgiveness for an error or sin, and feel forgiven as a result of asking forgiveness.

--- But when it comes to 'repenting' for sin, it is a heartfelt sorrow which brings one to humility before God.

Until we come to repentance before God, we sit on the throne of our life. We make the decisions. We decide what is right according to us.

--- When we come to God in repentance we don't come through a Priest or Imam, but as the Bible and Quran both say, 'everyone is responsible for his own sin.'

--- So, picture this, --- there you sit on the throne of your life in front of God on His Throne, Almighty GOD, looking down on you.

--- After you have repented with bitter tears, then you say, "Oh God, take control of the throne of my life and make me what you want me to be."

--- In the OT they often tore their clothes off and repented in sackcloth and ashes (to show that they were no better than dirt), in the NT it was a case of coming to John the Baptist, or to Jesus, and saying "God be merciful to me a sinner."

--- After they (or we) go through the process of repenting (or cleansing their lives before God), then they are ready for the next step.

As a result of the change they feel, --- they put their faith in God to guide their lives, --- then there is the joy of salvation, and the assurance that God has forgiven them, and 'He will begin to bless them generously,' --- as it says in verse 3.

--- After one has faith in God and the assurance of salvation, --- 'He bestows His grace on those who deserve it.'

Yusuf Ali: 'and bestows His abounding grace on all who abound in merit!

--- This means, for those who 'grow' in grace and follow the Lord's will, He gives more grace and blessings,

But for those who get careless, or put themselves back on the throne of their lives, then --- 'there is the retribution of an awesome day.' --- The Quran agrees with the Gospel, does it not, that those who do not repent before God and surrender unto Him, --- will not be qualified for heaven?

4. To GOD is your ultimate return, and He is Omnipotent. --- (God will not be fooled, He knows our inner heart attitude).

(I'm sure some of you are thinking I have expressed this as a Christian conversion, but what I want to point out is that the Quran says it the same way in these verses, does it not? --- The difference is that in a Christian conversion we might say, 'believe in Jesus as your Savior and Lord, and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.)

Remember --- Verse 1 says, --- " This is a scripture whose verses have been perfected, then elucidated, (of established meaning), further explained in detail.

(Mahdi, I will respond to your post later).

Placid

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Hi Mehdi,

The earliest mention of Muslim was perhaps with Abraham.

Rodwell: 2:130. And who but he that hath debased his soul to folly will mislike the faith of Abraham, when we have chosen him in this world, and in the world to come he shall be of the Just?

131. When his Lord said to him, "Resign thyself to me," he said, "I resign myself to the Lord of the Worlds."

132. And this to his children did Abraham bequeath, and Jacob also, saying, "O my children! truly God hath chosen a religion for you; so die not unless ye be also Muslims."

133. Were ye present when Jacob was at the point of death? when he said to his sons, "Whom will ye worship when I am gone?" They said, "We will worship thy God and the God of thy fathers Abraham and Ismael and Isaac, one God, and to Him are we surrendered (Muslims)."

Here very plainly the Muslims were 'surrendered ones' were they not?

--- And is this not the meaning of Islam in 5:3, --- Surrender, or Submission?

Yusuf Ali: This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. --- (The same religion as chosen for Abraham, was it not?)

Khalifa: Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you.

Also, this was from a NT setting where Jesus said:

Yusuf Ali: 3:50. "(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.

51. "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

53. "Our Lord! (God) we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Apostle (Jesus); then write us down among those who bear witness." (Or are surrendered) (or are Muslims).

55. Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Rodwell: 3:50 And I have come to attest the law which was before me; and to allow you part of that which had been forbidden you; and I come to you with a sign from your Lord: Fear God, then, and obey me;

51. of a truth God is my Lord, and your Lord: Therefore worship Him. This is a right way."

52. And when Jesus perceived unbelief on their part, He said, "Who will be my helpers with God?" The apostles said, "We will be God's helpers! We believe in God, and bear thou witness that we are Muslims.

53. O our Lord! (God) we believe in what thou hast sent down, and we follow the apostle (Jesus); write us up, then, with those who bear witness to him (Jesus)."

55. Remember when God said, "O Jesus! verily I will cause thee to die, and will take thee up to myself and deliver thee from those who believe not; and I will place those who follow thee above those who believe not, until the day of resurrection. Then, to me is your return, and wherein ye differ will I decide between you.

So when you ask, "Are you a Muslim?"

I can say "Yes, I am a Muslim the same as the Apostles were Muslims."

I can testify with Abraham that I have resigned, or surrendered my will to the will of God.

--- And my desire is the same as Abraham's, that my children and grandchildren will surrender themselves to God's will, and be used in His service.

The disciples went through the process of conversion as it says in 11:3, and became Muslims, (surrendered ones), so since Islam is mentioned since the time of Noah and Abraham, it is not a new religion, as is generally presented, --- but the One religion of God, is it not?

Consider this verse,

Khalifa: 42:13. He decreed for you the same religion decreed for Noah, and what we inspired to you, and what we decreed for Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: "You shall uphold this one religion, and do not divide it." The idol worshipers will greatly resent what you invite them to do. GOD redeems to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself only those who totally submit.

Placid

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Placid,

believe me i know all the verses you presented and i've read them times.i also understand what it means to be a muslim.

i first asked you if you believe in the quran as the word of God revealed to the prophet (pbuh) by the angel gabriel (as).the answer was a one word "yes".

i then asked you if you are a muslim,the answer is a newspaper article.in order to proceed,i would like you to answer me with a "yes" or a "no".are you a muslim?

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Placid,

believe me i know all the verses you presented and i've read them times.i also understand what it means to be a muslim.

i first asked you if you believe in the quran as the word of God revealed to the prophet pbuh.gif by the angel gabriel as.gif.the answer was a one word "yes".

i then asked you if you are a muslim,the answer is a newspaper article.in order to proceed,i would like you to answer me with a "yes" or a "no".are you a muslim?

Should you not also ask what branch of Muslim so you know better how to reject him?

A no answer would involke an instant rejection to any study, a simple yes, and you'd call him a liar.

Besides, your question is off topic.

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Should you not also ask what branch of Muslim so you know better how to reject him?

.

Besides, your question is off topic.

why are you replying to what was not addressed to you?

you are again fueling what i've said sometime ago."placid" and "son of placid" maybe the same person playing tricks.

as for what "branch",i'd rather have him in one of the branches of the tree of islam than have him in the tree of disbelief.i am shia and i love the majority of sunnis.there are bad and good people everywhere.my dispute is in theories and beliefs.that has nothing to do with hate.

A no answer would involke an instant rejection to any study, a simple yes, and you'd call him a liar

so its better to say a simple "yes" and stay in the topic to fool people than say a truthful "no" and lose the preaching game to play with peoples' minds.good missionary deceit.that says it all.

Edited by mehdi soldier
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Hi Son,

That's a good point.

If I said we were Messianic Muslims like the Apostles, that would never be satisfactory would it?

Mehdi,

If you know all the verses, I think you understand what I said by way of explanation of 11:3. Also you should understand the verses I listed that show that a Muslim is 'a surrendered one,' --- which I identify with.

However, I can go over it again.

First, I want to say, --- I believe that the revelations that Gabriel gave to Muhammad, to be taught to his people, and 'for all mankind' are the Word of GOD. That is why I said , "Yes" to your first question. --- However, not every conversation in the Quran is between Gabriel and Muhammad. --- However, whatever is contained in the Quran is what GOD 'preserved' as HIS message.

Anything you add to what is written, regardless of how profound it may seem, --- if it is not in the Quran in some form or another, it is not part of what God left for people to follow.

11:1 says, --- "This Scripture is true, true, true."

2. Worship none but GOD. Muhammad came as a messenger from GOD as a warner (of bad news), and as a bringer of good news.

3. (Let's have the good news first). --- Your responsibility is to, --- ask GOD's forgiveness, --- then repent before HIM in humility (that means submitting or surrendering your will to HIS, which is what 'Islam' means. [it's like getting down off the throne of your life and asking GOD to take control], --- which may take a little time as GOD is not in a hurry and wants you to show your sincerety.)

After you become a 'surrendered one' you could be called a Muslim, because that is what it means in the Quran.

--- Being yielded and submissive to GOD, --- your faith in GOD increases and you trust HIM to guide you, and you should feel the joy that HE gives, --- with the assurance that you have been forgiven and accepted. Then HE gives you grace and blessing according to your devotion to HIM. (This is all in verse 3.)

Because of our human nature, we often want to get back on the throne of our lives, even for a little bit, we may want to delve into a few things that we repented of in surrendering our will to GOD. There is a period of 'struggle' (the spiritual Jihad, which may last for some time, as old habits die hard).

(Now the bad news). --- If you selfishly turn back, or if you are tempted or inticed by the devil to again follow your own will, you knowingly reject what GOD offers, and you are an unbeliever.

I suppose, in a sense, if you cease to be a 'surrendered one' --- then you are no longer a Muslim.

--- You see the unbelievers and idolaters of Surah 9 were not Muslims, were they?

They were asked to become Muslims by surrendereing to the will of GOD, --- or to depart from the land.

This is kind of like the entrance to heaven, If you accept it, and submit to GOD and continue in faith and good works as a believer (and have the assurance of GOD that you are forgiven and accepted), then you will have your place in heaven.

4. Everybody comes to account before GOD. --- (GOD doesn't fool around. It's HIS way or no way).

--- But remember this last line of a former post, which said:

"GOD guides to HIMSELF only those who totally submit."

I have given my answer before, now I will ask you:

--- Mehdi, are you a Muslim?

Placid

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"Placid"

aside from throwing a controversial statement and asking me the same question i asked you,you have refused to answer me.answer my question with a yes or a no.are you a muslim?

First, I want to say, --- I believe that the revelations that Gabriel gave to Muhammad, to be taught to his people, and 'for all mankind' are the Word of GOD. That is why I said , "Yes" to your first question. --- However, not every conversation in the Quran is between Gabriel and Muhammad. --- However, whatever is contained in the Quran is what GOD 'preserved' as HIS message.

Anything you add to what is written, regardless of how profound it may seem, --- if it is not in the Quran in some form or another, it is not part of what God left for people to follow.

please can you point out the verses that are not between Gabriel (as) and Muhammad (pbuh)?

YOU JUST SAID YOU BELIEVE THE QURAN IS THE WORD OF GOD AS REVEALED TO THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh).NOW YOU'RE HAVING A CONDITION TO THAT.

--- Mehdi, are you a Muslim?

Placid

yes Placid,Mehdi is a muslim.i am a muslim.

as for you,i want to repeat my question to you:

ARE YOU A MUSLIM?

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Hi Mehdi,

First, in referrence to conversations in the Quran and statements made by the idolaters and unbelievers, --- I don't consider them to be inspired by God, do you?

--- But the revelations that Gabriel gave to Muhammad, I believe are the word of God, --- and we can believe them, --- like this true Scripture of Surah 11:1-24.

I will answer your ongoing question at the end, --- but I notice your reluctance to comment on humility, repentance, and confession of sin.

--- I believe that the Quran is a continuation and confirmation of the former Scriptures because the fundamental requirements are the same for any individual to enter into a relationship with God.

From 2 Chronicles 7 comes this verse to Solomon and the Jews:

14. "If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land."

--- Notice the steps that God requires of those who would be His followers:

If My people (at that time the Jews) who are called by My name (today we have Jews, Christians and Muslims that are called by His name),

--- will humble themselves --- (that applies to all mankind)

--- and pray --- (asking forgiveness, confession of sin, and repentance, are all done in prayer)

--- and seek My face --- (in submission and surrender to Him)

--- and turn from their wicked ways --- (this is repentance, to turn from the selfish or wicked way and follow God's way)

Then I (God) will hear from heaven --- (unworthy prayers never come up before God, or get His attention)

I will forgive their sin --- (there has to be confession and humility, before there can be forgiveness)

and heal their land --- (God's response is blessing, and inner healing, --- and His continued grace until we become established in faith, or turn away and lose the blessing and the hope of heaven).

--- It says this of John the Baptist, in Matthew 3:

1. In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea,

2. and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

3. For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:

“ The voice of one crying in the wilderness:

‘ Prepare the way of the LORD;

Make His paths straight.’”

4. Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.

5. Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him

6. and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

--- And this is when Jesus started His ministry, in Mark 1:

14. Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the Gospel of the kingdom of God,

15. and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the Gospel.”

--- (The word 'Gospel' means 'good news,' --- the same message that Muhammad was delivering in Surah 11:3

Jesus said in other places, "Except you repent, you will all likewise perish."

--- You see, the same message of good news was delivered to the Jews, the Christians, and the Muslims.

As I said previously I have gone through these steps that lead to faith and surrender to God, that give the assurance of salvation, and as I outlined before, I identify with Abraham and the Apostles who were called Muslims in the Quran,

--- So, I can say, "Yes, I am a Quranic Muslim."

But this may not satisfy you, so I will ask you.

What would you say I need to do to become a Muslim?

Placid

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Hi Haider,

Welcome!

I guess you are referring to the Khalifa translation.

I have not studied any of the translator's backgrounds except Mr Pickthall.

I compare the translations and usually use Mr Pickthall's translation, or Yusuf Ali,

However, this time I used the Khalifa translation, partly because he emphasized GOD in capital letters, and because our focus was centered on GOD, and the worship of HIM alone,

--- The other reason is that sometimes his explanations are shorter.

Anyway, could you advise me on what you consider to be the better translations, as well as what your thoughts are on Khalifa's translation.

Muhammad was the messenger of God and what was revealed to him was written in Arabic.

All of the translaters, including Mr Pickthall (which is the translation I have), are just scholars that have translated.

The fact that the translations are very similar from both the Muslim and non Muslim translaters, which speaks well of the accuracy, does it not?

I will be interested in your suggestions.

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Hi Mehdi,

First, in referrence to conversations in the Quran and statements made by the idolaters and unbelievers, --- I don't consider them to be inspired by God, do you?

yes i do believe the Quran from A-Z to be not only inspired but the actual word of God.i ask you once again,please put forth the verses which you are talking about.point out that this verse is not inspired and explain to us why.

you claim you believe the quran is the word of God revealed by Gabriel (as) to the Prophet (pbuh),but now you stand contradicting yourself and claiming knowledge of identifying which of the quran is of God and which is not.you want to put the quran on equal pedestal with your bible,which contains little portions that can be identified as God's word and that can easily be proven as i've done in the other thread where i engaged you to put a stop to your false propaganda that the quran "confirms" the bible.

--- But the revelations that Gabriel gave to Muhammad, I believe are the word of God, --- and we can believe them, --- like this true Scripture of Surah 11:1-24.

sorry "Placid",but you're contradicting yourself here.its either Muhammad (pbuh) was a prophet or he was not.its either you believe he was or was not.therefore its either you believe all the quran is God's word or is not.or maybe you can prove to us how you reached your conclusions of what is and what isn't.

i would like to ask you a question:you say you believe that the quran is God's word revealed to the Prophet (pbuh) by Gabriel and you claim to be a muslim,even though you refused to answer that in simple term.the quran says Jesus (as) was not crucified.do you accept that?or do you believe the verse of the quran that says Jesus was not crucify is also "not inspired"?what is your point on it.please tell us!

I will answer your ongoing question at the end, --- but I notice your reluctance to comment on humility, repentance, and confession of sin.

humility: you dont know me personally so you cant judge online.and if you mean "compromising the truth",i'd rather be seen as arrogant.

repentance:that is not between me and you.dont bother.

confession of sin: again that is not between me and you,just another sinful human being that is no better than i am.my sins are only confessed to God,the all-seer,merciful and almighty.

--- I believe that the Quran is a continuation and confirmation of the former Scriptures because the fundamental requirements are the same for any individual to enter into a relationship with God.

i hope you are not going back in time to tell us the quran "confirms" the bible because not all the bible is God's word.we've explained that in another thread.if you insist,i'd just get you the link of that thread for you to go back in time.

From 2 Chronicles 7 comes this verse to Solomon and the Jews:

14. "If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land."

--- Notice the steps that God requires of those who would be His followers:

If My people (at that time the Jews) who are called by My name (today we have Jews, Christians and Muslims that are called by His name),

--- will humble themselves --- (that applies to all mankind)

--- and pray --- (asking forgiveness, confession of sin, and repentance, are all done in prayer)

--- and seek My face --- (in submission and surrender to Him)

--- and turn from their wicked ways --- (this is repentance, to turn from the selfish or wicked way and follow God's way)

Then I (God) will hear from heaven --- (unworthy prayers never come up before God, or get His attention)

I will forgive their sin --- (there has to be confession and humility, before there can be forgiveness)

and heal their land --- (God's response is blessing, and inner healing, --- and His continued grace until we become established in faith, or turn away and lose the blessing and the hope of heaven).

that is good to hear from you.so i dont need to accept Jesus as "my lord and saviour who redeemed me and all of humanity with his magic blood from sin"?and am happy nowhere in the old testament is that mentioned.and in the new testament if anything is hinted in that vain,that can be disputed.

--- It says this of John the Baptist, in Matthew 3:

1. In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea,

2. and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!”

3. For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying:

“ The voice of one crying in the wilderness:

‘ Prepare the way of the LORD;

Make His paths straight.’”

4. Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.

5. Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him

6. and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

--- And this is when Jesus started His ministry, in Mark 1:

14. Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the Gospel of the kingdom of God,

15. and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the Gospel.”

--- (The word 'Gospel' means 'good news,' --- the same message that Muhammad was delivering in Surah 11:3

Jesus said in other places, "Except you repent, you will all likewise perish."

--- You see, the same message of good news was delivered to the Jews, the Christians, and the Muslims.

As I said previously I have gone through these steps that lead to faith and surrender to God, that give the assurance of salvation, and as I outlined before, I identify with Abraham and the Apostles who were called Muslims in the Quran,

Good for you.but you cannot be a muslim when you disbelieve in the quran and takes portion of it to compliment your beliefs.and then invite the muslim to "repent".and become what?

--- So, I can say, "Yes, I am a Quranic Muslim."

But this may not satisfy you, so I will ask you.

What would you say I need to do to become a Muslim?

Placid

you must accept the quran as a whole.the quran is not like a bible,a patchy work by many men in different places and times,stitched together to make it a one book.the quran was brought by one man.when you renounce the pagan belief that a man was sacrificed for the crime of others and when you recite the shahada and uphold prayer,fast,hajj,alms,and all the islamic practices as Muhammad (pbuh) taught the muslims,then you become one of us.its not done with mouth.

if you claim to be a muslim,its either you were born one or you "converted".if you "converted" where and who witnessed your conversion?

in the quran Allah have said this muslim nation has being made the best for humanity and no one is better than he who calls himself a muslim.are you part of the muslim ummah (nation)?

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Hi Haider,

Welcome!

I guess you are referring to the Khalifa translation.

I have not studied any of the translator's backgrounds except Mr Pickthall.

I compare the translations and usually use Mr Pickthall's translation, or Yusuf Ali,

However, this time I used the Khalifa translation, partly because he emphasized GOD in capital letters, and because our focus was centered on GOD, and the worship of HIM alone,

--- The other reason is that sometimes his explanations are shorter.

Anyway, could you advise me on what you consider to be the better translations, as well as what your thoughts are on Khalifa's translation.

Muhammad was the messenger of God and what was revealed to him was written in Arabic.

All of the translaters, including Mr Pickthall (which is the translation I have), are just scholars that have translated.

The fact that the translations are very similar from both the Muslim and non Muslim translaters, which speaks well of the accuracy, does it not?

I will be interested in your suggestions.

Salaam,

What made me ask you about Rashid Khalifa was not only the translation you were using, but also the fact that you said you were a Quranic Muslim. As far as I know, among the Quranic muslims, or Quran-only Muslims, there is a group that considers Rashid Khalifa to be the 'messenger of the covenant', who brought the proof that the Quran is authentic by his discovery of the miracle of 19 in the Quran.

I don't know any specific cases of him mistranslating things, but it's known that he has reversed the traditional definitions of prophet and messenger, in order to make it possible for him to be a messenger. It is probable that he may have made a translation to fit his needs. I know that his version of the 'death' of Jesus (as) is also very unorthodox. Basically, he believes that before Jesus died, his soul was taken up to heaven, and his body was crucified. Since he rejects the hadiths, he also doesn't believe in the return of Jesus (as).

In general, I don't have any problems with the other type of Quran-only Muslims. I would rather someone accept the Quran to be the word of God and reject the hadiths, than for someone to reject the whole religion. Hopefully in time an understanding of the importance of at least some of the hadith will come.

With regard to specific translations, I would advise just to read as many as possible. Sometimes they will all agree, and other times it will be more difficult to give a good translation of the exact Arabic meaning. In those situations it can be useful to read many translations to get an idea of some of the nuances.

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if you claim to be a muslim, its either you were born one or you "converted".if you "converted" where and who witnessed your conversion?

Placid is a devout Christian.

yes i do believe the Quran from A-Z to be not only inspired but the actual word of God.

The Quran is not inspired like Christians claim their scriptures to be. It is an actual revelation of the Word of God.

There is a big difference between an actual revelation and an inspired text.

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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name of The One GOD, The Very Merciful, The All Merciful. As salaamu 'alaikum, The peace be upon you, everyone. The one difference that I have found in Khalifa's translation is that he has eliminated two verses (128-129) in sura 9:

http://www.quranbrowser.com/

009:128

Pickthall There hath come unto you a messenger, (one) of yourselves, unto whom aught that ye are overburdened is grievous, full of concern for you, for the believers full of pity, merciful.

Yusuf Ali Now hath come unto you an Apostle from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful.

Hilali-Khan Verily, there has come unto you a Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from amongst yourselves (i.e. whom you know well). It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty. He (Muhammad SAW) is anxious over you (to be rightly guided, to repent to Allah, and beg Him to pardon and forgive your sins, in order that you may enter Paradise and be saved from the punishment of the Hell-fire), for the believers (he SAW is) full of pity, kind, and merciful.

Shakir Certainly an Apostle has come to you from among yourselves; grievous to him is your falling into distress, excessively solicitous respecting you; to the believers (he is) compassionate, merciful.

Khalifa [Note: Khalifa considered this verse to be Satanic and not in the Qur'an.]

009:129

Pickthall Now, if they turn away (O Muhammad) say: Allah sufficeth me. There is no God save Him. In Him have I put my trust, and He is Lord of the Tremendous Throne.

Yusuf Ali But if they turn away, Say: "God sufficeth me: there is no god but He: On Him is my trust, - He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme!"

Hilali-Khan . But if they turn away, say (O Muhammad SAW): "Allah is sufficient for me. La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the Mighty Throne."

Shakir But if they turn back, say: Allah is sufficient for me, there is no god but He; on Him do I rely, and He is the Lord of mighty power.

Khalifa [Note: Khalifa considered this verse to be Satanic and not in the Qur'an.]

Wassalaam. Faithfully999

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Mehdi,

I’m sorry if I upset you with something I said, --- to make you say that I was contradictory.

--- In Post 4 you asked if I believed that what Gabriel revealed to Muhammad was the word of God

Here are your words:

Hello "Placid",

do you believe in the quran as the "word of God" revealed by the angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad ?

To which I said, “Yes.” I have also said that ALL that is in the Quran was what God ‘preserved,’ --- the same as He ‘preserved,’ the former Scriptures.

Then I asked you, “How could I become a Muslim?”

And after rambling on about other things, you said, “You are born a Muslim, or you can do these things.”

Quote from Post 17:

you must accept the quran as a whole. the quran is not like a bible,a patchy work by many men in different places and times, stitched together to make it a one book. the quran was brought by one man. when you renounce the pagan belief that a man was sacrificed for the crime of others and when you recite the shahada and uphold prayer,fast,hajj,alms,and all the islamic practices as Muhammad taught the muslims,then you become one of us. its not done with mouth.

if you claim to be a muslim, its either you were born one or you "converted".if you "converted" where and who witnessed your conversion?

Quote from Post 10 of the Prophecy of Daniel:

(In response to SOP, you said):

my brotherly advice to you is to take heart. become a muslim. it doesnt take much. its just 2 sentences you'd recite and that's it!

Quote from Post 11 in response to SOP’s question:

What are these two sentences?

(And you said):

LA ILAHA IL-LAL-LAH

MUHAMMAD RASUL-LUL-LAH.

if you recite those two sentences with the intention of becoming a muslim, you're in the fold of islam.

and we'd be brothers in faith. you can also suggest that to your online/shiachat father "Placid".

--- So, here you say, “Just say these two sentences” --- “and we’d be brothers in faith.”

Quote from Post 17 of ‘Hud’, I asked:

What would you say I need to do to become a Muslim?

(And you said):

you must accept the quran as a whole. --- (I left out the criticism of the Bible.) --- and when you recite the shahada and uphold prayer, fast, hajj, alms, and all the islamic practices as Muhammad taught the muslims,then you become one of us. its not done with mouth.

if you claim to be a muslim,its either you were born one or you "converted".if you "converted" where and who witnessed your conversion?

.

--- I understand that the ‘shahada’ is the new creed:

‘There is no god but Allah; Muhammad is the Apostle of God.’ Or,

‘"(I profess that) there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of God."

The main message I get from you then, is, --- “Repeat the shahada, and you’re in.”

--- And you say that, “we’d be brothers in faith.”

However, there’s no faith involved in saying this creed, is there?

It is a statement. --- You can say it without even changing your expression, let alone changing your life by ‘conversion,’ isn’t that right?

Mehdi, --- I don’t know if you know when the first Pillar of Islam was changed from ‘Faith’ to the present ‘creed,’ --- But I have it in a Book that explains the five Pillars,

--- And the first four are really the Pillars of Faith that have their origin in the OT.

They are: Faith, Prayer, Fasting, and Alms.

And the first Pillar of Faith says this:

Quote: ‘The religion of Islam demands of its believers first, Iman, Faith; which their theologians define as “confession with the tongue and belief with the heart.”

The fuller form of this confession is: “I believe in God, His angels, His books, His prophets; in the Last Day, in the predestination of the Most High God of good and evil, and in the resurrection after death.”

--- That was perhaps taken from this ‘profession of Faith’:

2:285. The Apostle believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in God, His angels, His books, and His apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

--- This is also harmonious with this instruction to Muhammad:

42:13. He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein

And this verse, which is the Muslim testimony:

3:84. Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

You see, Mehdi, --- this is what the Quran teaches, --- (which you say you believe).

One last point about the new ‘creed,’ as opposed to the old ‘profession of Faith.’

Mr Pickthall said in his introduction to Surah 2:

‘All through the Surah runs the note of warning, which sounds indeed throughout the whole Quran, that it is not the mere profession of a creed, but righteous conduct, which is true religion. There is the repeated announcement that the religion of Abraham, to which Judaism and Christianity trace their origin, is the only true religion, and that that religion consists in the surrender of man’s will and purpose to the Will and Purpose of the Lord of Creation as manifested in His creation and revealed by way of guidance through successive Prophets. --- Of sincerity, in that religion the one test is conduct, and the standard of that religion is for all alike.’

Btw, there was a whole Church full of people that witnessed my conversion.

Placid

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Salam All and Br placid

I think there has been a grave misunderstanding between placid and mehdi soldier. Here is what placid said about the Quran:

First, in referrence to conversations in the Quran and statements made by the idolaters and unbelievers, --- I don't consider them to be inspired by God, do you?

--- But the revelations that Gabriel gave to Muhammad, I believe are the word of God, --- and we can believe them, --- like this true Scripture of Surah 11:1-24.

I think what placid is trying to say is that the evil and destructive words that the idolaters spoke are not something that God inspired to them. Every muslim obviously agrees on this for God does not cause people to commit bad deeds.

However, what is in the Quran is what God wanted preserved. Under instruction by God, the Book was conveyed to Muhammad (saws) through Gabriel. In this sense we say that the Quran is a complete inspiration by God but that doesn't mean that what the people said in the Book was inspired by God.

I hope this clears things up.

Oby

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why are you replying to what was not addressed to you?

You do it all the time. Your only aim is to discredit. Too bad you can't get into the topic and possibly add something worthwhile.

you are again fueling what i've said sometime ago."placid" and "son of placid" maybe the same person playing tricks.

Check with the Admin. They can track our IP addresses. They will find them some 3600 kilometres apart.

as for what "branch",i'd rather have him in one of the branches of the tree of islam than have him in the tree of disbelief.i am shia and i love the majority of sunnis.there are bad and good people everywhere.my dispute is in theories and beliefs.that has nothing to do with hate.

I think you prefer to have him hanging from a tree. A high branch if possible. It has to do with your form of justice, not hate.

so its better to say a simple "yes" and stay in the topic to fool people than say a truthful "no" and lose the preaching game to play with peoples' minds.good missionary deceit.that says it all.

Did you get a simple yes?

I think it was well broken down for you. You may now believe what you like. If you take a look at the title of the thread it says nothing about conforming to Mehdis religion, or requiring his approval before continuing. I believe you have your Muslim brother's best interest in mind, but these "missionary tactics" don't seem to be leading Muslims to Christianity do they now?

Could you please list the number of threads we have created that are designed to turn Muslims into Christians?

In site of the Quran burning idiot preacher of last week, it sparked a conversation at work. One said burn the Quran, another said may as well burn the Bible at the same time, they turned it onto burning the Torah as well. Quite frankly I was surprised they even knew there was a Torah. My response was they should stick them all together and figure out the truth. I seemed to be an acceptable answer and nobody talked about burning anything after that.

We are not separated by truth but by doctrine and tradition.

Do you think tradition might be different if Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad carried a Blackberry and a bottle of anti bacterial gel?

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Hi Haider,

Quote from Post 18:

What made me ask you about Rashid Khalifa was not only the translation you were using, but also the fact that you said you were a Quranic Muslim.

--- I had heard that there are some Quran only Muslims, which it would be nice to discuss with, --- but I said I was a Quranic Muslim because Muslim means, 'surendered one' --- and I identify with the faith of Abraham and the Apostles, who were called Muslims, or 'surrendered ones' in the Quran.

However, I have been trying to show the continuity of Faith from the OT through the NT and to the Quran.

I have been a Christian for many years and enjoy the Lord's blessing as well as having assurance of salvation through faith in God and having accepted the Gospel, 'the Good News of salvation through Jesus Christ.'

However, there is a connection to Abraham in the NT in Galatians 3:

6. Just as Abraham 'believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness,'

7. Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

8. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations by faith, preached the Gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."

9. So then, those who are of faith are blest with believing Abraham.

26. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

27. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

--- I say this to show that we have a connection to Abraham by Faith, and this is for Muslims as well.

This is why I identify with Abraham in the Quran because the 'life of Faith' calls for complete surrender to God's will.

Surah 11:2-3 outlines the conversion experience for one to become a Muslim, 'surrendered one,' does it not?

The same conversion experience is required for Christians to become 'surrendered ones.'

--- Anyway, thank you for alerting me to the Khalifa translation, --- and the fact that there may be some questions about him.

Faithfully also mentioned a discrepency, --- so, for these reasons, I will read it along with the other translations, but I will no longer quote from it.

Thanks again, and please continue with our discussion.

Placid.

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Hi Faithfully,

Quote from Post 20:

The one difference that I have found in Khalifa's translation is that he has eliminated two verses (128-129) in sura 9:

--- It is interesting that these verses were omitted, but he said in his writing, they were not 'canonical.'

I read about him and his numerical findings, but it didn't say that these two verses were satanic in any article, --- but it says that in Quranbrowser. --- Anyway, with what you and Haider have said, I will read his translation, but I won't quote it again as I want to avoid any problems with translations.

However, the verses are very good, and sound like a benediction after the former conversation.

--- Some of the Surahs seem to make a profound statement in the last two or three verses, and this is one of them.

Maybe he had a copy that did not include tham, --- as has been the case in some Scriptures.

Here are the verses before, --- that show the disbelief and indifference of some:

9:124. And whenever a Surah is revealed there are some of them who say: Which one of you hath thus increased in faith? As for those who believe, it hath increased them in faith and they rejoice (therefor).

125. But as for those in whose hearts is disease, it only addeth wickedness to their wickedness, and they die while they are disbelievers.

126. See they not that they are tested once or twice in every year? Still they turn not in repentance, neither pay they heed.

127. And whenever a Surah is revealed, they look one at another (as who should say): Doth anybody see you? Then they turn away. Allah turneth away their hearts because they are a folk who understands not.

(Then this as a kind of conclusion, and confirmation to Muhammad):

128. There hath come unto you a messenger, (one) of yourselves, unto whom aught that ye are overburdened is grevious, full of concern for you, for the believers, full of pity, merciful.

Yusuf Ali: Now hath come unto you an Apostle from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful.

129. Now if they turn away (O Muhammad) say: Allah sufficeth me. There is no God save Him. In Him have I put my trust, and He is Lord of the Tremendous Throne.

Thanks, I appreciate your input.

Placid

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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name of The One GOD, The Very Merciful, The All Merciful. As salaamu 'alaikum, The peace be upon you.

Salaam, Placid. Regarding Rashad Khalifa's translation, actually he claimed that the verses 128-129 of sura 9, did not correspond with his number nineteen theory, so it must have been a later addition, or something to that effect. They (those two verses) might have been in an earlier edition of his, if I recall correctly. Other than that flaw, I would think that his translation is fairly close to many other translations of Al-Qur'an. He took much flack about his number nineteen theory, and also, the fact that he had rejected Ahadiith.

The verses that you have quoted (124-127), belie the rejecter's of the signs of Allah, The Glorious, The Praiseworthy. They who refuse to believe.... "those in whose hearts is disease, it only addeth wickedness to their wickedness..." They are those who find this world to be sport, and play, while Allah, Lord of All The Worlds, created jinns and man, to worship HIM, Alone. Of course the believers rejoice in their increased faith when these verses are recited to them.

Verses 128-129, reveal the Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) grief over those whom will, not to believe, that they should perish. And,... "to the Believers is he most kind and merciful."

129. Now if they turn away (O Muhammad) say: Allah sufficeth me. There is no God save Him. In Him have I put my trust, and He is Lord of the Tremendous Throne.

Wassalaam. Faithfully999

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Thanks Faithfully,

I would like to continue with verses 5 and 6 from Yusuf Ali's translation.

11:4. ('To God is your return, and He hath power over all things.')

5. Behold! they fold up their hearts, that they may lie hid from Him! Ah even when they cover themselves with their garments, He knoweth what they conceal, and what they reveal: for He knoweth well the (inmost secrets) of the hearts.

--- The unbelieving fold their arms over their heart, or breast, as though to close themselves in.

Man, in his self governing puts a barrier between himself and God, as though God can't see through it.

In the natural, we don't know know what someone else is thinking, and we won't know unless they let us in on their thoughts.

The natural man thinks that he can hide himself and his thoughts from God. --- He can insulate himself even further from God by believeing something else, which might be like putting on an outer garment.

--- But, as 'God has power over all things,' --- He knows what they conceal. He knows the innermost secrets of their hearts.

An interesting explanation of God's 'all-knowing' is found in Surah 50:

16. It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.

17. Behold, two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and noted them), one sitting on the right and one on the left.

18. Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him, ready (to note it).

19. And the stupor of death will bring Truth (before his eyes): "This was the thing which thou wast trying to escape!"

20. And the Trumpet shall be blown: that will be the Day whereof Warning (had been given).

--- (This says that we are all monitored from the cradle to the grave).

--- (Some believe that we have an 'accompanying angel' or a 'Guardian angel, --- and a recording angel. --- that the guardian angel guides us away from danger and guides us to good [as our conscience], however, the guardian angel can not force us to follow good, but the choice is up to the inner working of the mind. --- If a person continues to reject the inner voice of conscience, that person becomes dulled, or hardened, towards the voice of good, and will follow his own decisions.

--- And the thought is that the second angel simply 'records' everything as it is.)

6. There is no moving creature on earth but its sustenance dependeth on God: He knoweth the time and place of its definite abode and its temporary deposit: All is in a clear Record.

--- By comparison to the human, every other moving creature knows its dependance on God and His provision.

This is why for the human to be in right relationship with God, he must first believe, and then surrender his will to God, so that the inner voice for good will be a strong voice to help him live a life in service to God.

Please add more insights (or questions).

Placid

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Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. As salaamu 'alaikum, The peace be upon you, everyone.

Hi Faithfully and Son,

Quote from 12,

Some Christian devils are obviously preparing to launch a second phase of the 'Crusades'. Here is their warm-up to burning of The Holy Qur'an:

Just for clarification, --- if they are devils, they can't be Christian.

--- By the same token I have said, --- if they are terrorists, they can't be Muslim.

Reply: Of course you are correct. However, if (Christian) preacher's prefer to preach falsehood and desire to behave as barbarians, and teach destructive tendencies then the devil is in them.

The act by Rev Terry Jones was not a terrorist act. --- It was a foolish act, but he seemed to be saying, "I am going to take a stand against what is infiltrating our country." But the media got hold of it and flung it to the world.

Reply: But what exactly is it, that is "infiltrating our country?" I refuse to give truth to a lie that holds Islam/Muslims responsible for destroying the Twin Towers, in New York City, and taking the lives of thousands of Innocent's, Muslims included. May Allah, The Glorious, save me from being an ignorant fool!

As soon as I saw it, I remembered the time when a Quran was reported as destroyed at Guantonamo Bay --- and the riots it caused in some Arab countries. --- I remember that 17 people were killed before it was over.

--- It seems to me that Muslims regard the Quran so highly as a symbol, --- but so many Muslims don't really believe the message in it.

Reply: These Muslims may be those for whom the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) grieved so heavily for (surah 9:128). Perhaps they have come up to a higher level/degree. If they sincerely want to believe in the message of Al-Qur'an, I pray that Allah, The Hearer, The All-Knowing, will open their hearts to the Light of its message.

Terry Jones said he had not read the Quran so he acted unwisely, (or we could say, 'in ignorance'), --- but the reaction brought many things to light.

Reply: Whom Allah, The High Exalted, The Manifest, The Hidden, leaves to stray, none save HE, Alone, can lead aright.

(food for thought).

The main reason for his action was the objection to the proposed Muslim center so close to Ground Zero in New York.

Reply: That is odd. There is no Ground Zero in New York. It's a gimmick!

I asked the Lord what He would have me do, and I felt led to write three emails to Rev Jones.

I started out by saying, "Your plan may be well intended and you may have some support from others, but it would hinder the opportunity of those of us who are in dialogue with Muslims to resolve our differences."

--- Each email contained different content, and I encouraged him to read certain passages. I said that the Quran refers to Jesus as the Messiah 8 times. --- I gave him some of the same verses that I have often used, like 3:3-4 where it says the Quran is a confirmation of the former Scriptures.

I know the emails were received, but I do not know if they were read, as they would be bombarded with letters. I asked for a reply, which I have not yet received, and I may send one more to acknowledge the end result. --- However, he brought attention to the concern and went to New York to meet with some officials.

This was just a little 'flash in the pan,' but it shows the unity of religious leaders and polititians to put out the little fires that could ignite something not easy to control.

You see how foolish it is to react and kill one another before a problem is resolved?

Reply: I understand your concern, and applaud your gracious efforts.

Also any reference to the Grusades is a bad joke.

Wickipedia says this about the Crusades:

The Crusades were a series of religiously sanctioned military campaigns waged by much of Western Christian Europe, particularly the Franks of France and the Holy Roman Empire. The specific crusades to restore Christian control of the Holy Land were fought over a period of nearly 200 years, between 1095 and 1291.

--- The Crusades originally had the goal of recapturing Jerusalem and the Holy Land from Muslim rule and were launched in response to a call from the Christian Byzantine Empire for help against the expansion of the Muslim Seljuk Turks into Anatolia.

Reply: My mention of the 'Crusades,' was in the sense of not giving serious thought to the undertaking of a senseless and barbaric act, such as destroying someone's holy book.

But the Crusades of 1095 to 1291, is another story altogether, and should be looked at in the light of the message of clarifying truth given to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) the natural successor of Prophet, Christ 'Isa [Jesus, PBUH] which is found in The Noble Qur'an, as a confirmation of previous Scripture.

--- My question has always been, "What were the so called Muslims doing in the Holy Land to start with?

--- And it seems that they were advancing towards Europe. --- As soon as Umar began to attack outside of Arabia, they moved out of God's will and became 'aggressors,' did they not?

That's a long way from the instruction in the Quran that they were to 'defend' --- not to 'attack.' --- The true Muslims were to be none violent.

Reply: Was Jerusalem, not the first Qibla of the Muslims? Does not Allah, The Dominant, The Enricher, The Self-Subsisting, in Whom All Subsist, decide for all? Are we not but instruments in HIS Hands? All Glory Be To HIM, Alone. I don't know much about the shoe bomber, so I'll sign off here.

Wassalaam. Faithfully999

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Mr.Placid,

first let me say this:this discussion is centered around the quran.you always as usual try to divert the topic into other issues and try to make discussions out of only one.

the first thing i raised was:did you believe in the quran as the word of God revealed by Gabriel to Muhammad? you said yes.

i then asked if you are muslim?instead of answering me,you first tried to give me definitions of what muslim means and tried to demonstrate that by giving me examples of previous prophets of God who were described by the quran to be muslims.obviously you want me to buy your argument that you are muslim by drawing parallels from personalities of the past who existed before the coming of Muhammad (pbuh).my simple message to you is very simple:your definition of muslim in 2010 has to be the definitions given by Muhammad (pbuh) and not only the defintions of prophets before him,since Muhammad completed the religion and through him Allah declared the completion of faith.i also want you to note that you can declare LA ILAHA ILAL-LAH,MUHAMMAD RASULUL-LAH as much as you like.that as i stated will put you in the fold of islam.i will advice you not to play tricks here and be negligence with islam.it is not a game.you can declare the testimony of faith,but there are also beliefs and actions that dont go well with that testimony and can make your declaration void of any importance.

your belief that there are verses of the quran that are not the word of God and if you still insist that Jesus (as) was crucified and "died for our sins" puts you outside of the fold of islam.you would be mocking yourself and no one else.we know you as a christian.you cannot falsely claim to be a muslim while you belie the quran and the message of Muhammad(pbuh).you cannot believe in crucifixion and redemption and someother beliefs.these are un-islamic.you have to decide where you belong.you cannot sit on the fence and think cherry-picking and dishonesty would shield you.

you have claimed that there are verses of the quran which are not the word of God or you said are "not inspired".i asked you to put them forth so as to check.what brother "Oby" is explaining,i dont believe that was what you intended.i do agree as brother Oby explained that God did not inspire the unbelievers to say or do what they did.but God did reveal some of the same words to Muhammad(pbuh).so those words are part of the quran and revelation from God and the word of God as they are part of the quran.do you agree with that?

your insistence of twisting up issues is to get noticed and get into a discussion.your "son" have said you "yes" (that you're a muslim) was to enable you discuss in this topic.a "no" would give you no right to discuss the quran.

Mehdi,

I’m sorry if I upset you with something I said, --- to make you say that I was contradictory.

--- In Post 4 you asked if I believed that what Gabriel revealed to Muhammad was the word of God

Here are your words:

Hello "Placid",

do you believe in the quran as the "word of God" revealed by the angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad ?

you did not upset me.your dishonesty and playing with words and mind games is too cheap and common.nothing suprising.

you contradicted yourself for you to tell me that there are verses in the quran which are not God's word.yet you want me to believe that you believe in the quran and you're a "muslim".

if you want to say something is not the word of God,we can get many from the bible but not the qurane.g. the verse describing God as shaving,riding a cherubim,wrestling,the adultery of prophets,the incest of prophets,the unjust attitude of prophets,the false prophecies,the drunkenness of prophets,the myths and many more nonsensical things which i can present to you verse for verse.and i ask you to do the same for the quran if you're truthful.present the verses.

all those men of God insulted in the bible are meant to be exemplary and in the "holy book of God".yet those men are not condemned in those books of the bible but described in the best terms possible like "righteous" and "God-fearing".that being the case it would not be a bad idea if you can also add some verses about me in the bible.i have my bad parts (not as bad as the ones of the prophets in the bible) but i also have some good actions.so what makes those men any special to have being raised to a status of mentioning them in the "holy book of God"?what is so "holy" and "righteous" about adultery,incest,fornication,rape,etc?

To which I said, “Yes.” I have also said that ALL that is in the Quran was what God ‘preserved,’ --- the same as He ‘preserved,’ the former Scriptures.

excuse me.the former scriptures and your bible to be precise are not "preserved".they are only preserved in your imagination.not in reality.not in this world.so please save us from your faulty understanding of "preservation".how can God preserve something that is still faulty and messy?i have discussed this with you in the other thread where you claimed that the quran "confirms" the bible.and i refuted that.it is in the same vain you are claiming now that the former scriptures are "preserved".

Then I asked you, “How could I become a Muslim?”

And after rambling on about other things, you said, “You are born a Muslim, or you can do these things.”

Quote from Post 17:

you must accept the quran as a whole. the quran is not like a bible,a patchy work by many men in different places and times, stitched together to make it a one book. the quran was brought by one man. when you renounce the pagan belief that a man was sacrificed for the crime of others and when you recite the shahada and uphold prayer,fast,hajj,alms,and all the islamic practices as Muhammad taught the muslims,then you become one of us. its not done with mouth.

if you claim to be a muslim, its either you were born one or you "converted".if you "converted" where and who witnessed your conversion?

i did not say in the above "i was born a muslim".

i said that you are a muslim by birth or through conversion.since we know you are/were christian,i asked who witnessed your conversion.when a non-muslim converts to islam,muslims must witness the conversion.who wtnessed your conversion to islam?

Quote from Post 10 of the Prophecy of Daniel:

(In response to SOP, you said):

my brotherly advice to you is to take heart. become a muslim. it doesnt take much. its just 2 sentences you'd recite and that's it!

Quote from Post 11 in response to SOP’s question:

What are these two sentences?

(And you said):

LA ILAHA IL-LAL-LAH

MUHAMMAD RASUL-LUL-LAH.

if you recite those two sentences with the intention of becoming a muslim, you're in the fold of islam.

and we'd be brothers in faith. you can also suggest that to your online/shiachat father "Placid".

--- So, here you say, “Just say these two sen

tences” --- “and we’d be brothers in faith.”

Quote from Post 17 of ‘Hud’, I asked:

What would you say I need to do to become a Muslim?

(And you said):

you must accept the quran as a whole. --- (I left out the criticism of the Bible.) --- and when you recite the shahada and uphold prayer, fast, hajj, alms, and all the islamic practices as Muhammad taught the muslims,then you become one of us. its not done with mouth.

if you claim to be a muslim,its either you were born one or you "converted".if you "converted" where and who witnessed your conversion?

--- I understand that the ‘shahada’ is the new creed:

‘There is no god but Allah; Muhammad is the Apostle of God.’ Or,

‘"(I profess that) there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of God."

The main message I get from you then, is, --- “Repeat the shahada, and you’re in.”

--- And you say that, “we’d be brothers in faith.”

However, there’s no faith involved in saying this creed, is there?

It is a statement. --- You can say it without even changing your expression, let alone changing your life by ‘conversion,’ isn’t that right?

i still stand by that Mr.Placid.

first,if you read well you will see that i said if you recite those two sentences "WITH THE INTENTION OF BECOMING A MUSLIM,YOU'RE IN THE FOLD OF ISLAM".there is no evidence you have converted.

also,reciting those two sentences undoubtedly puts you into the fold.as i know you stand to prove me wrong if you can justify to me that there are certain un-islamic beliefs which you hold and you have now disassociated yourself from.i will ask you about that in the end of my post.

Mehdi, --- I don’t know if you know when the first Pillar of Islam was changed from ‘Faith’ to the present ‘creed,’ --- But I have it in a Book that explains the five Pillars,

--- And the first four are really the Pillars of Faith that have their origin in the OT.

They are: Faith, Prayer, Fasting, and Alms.

And the first Pillar of Faith says this:

Quote: ‘The religion of Islam demands of its believers first, Iman, Faith; which their theologians define as “confession with the tongue and belief with the heart.”

The fuller form of this confession is: “I believe in God, His angels, His books, His prophets; in the Last Day, in the predestination of the Most High God of good and evil, and in the resurrection after death.”

--- That was perhaps taken from this ‘profession of Faith’:

2:285. The Apostle believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in God, His angels, His books, and His apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

--- This is also harmonious with this instruction to Muhammad:

42:13. He hath ordained for you that religion which He commended unto Noah, and that which We inspire in thee (Muhammad), and that which We commended unto Abraham and Moses and Jesus, saying: Establish the religion, and be not divided therein

And this verse, which is the Muslim testimony:

3:84. Say (O Muhammad): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

You see, Mehdi, --- this is what the Quran teaches, --- (which you say you believe).

One last point about the new ‘creed,’ as opposed to the old ‘profession of Faith.’

Mr Pickthall said in his introduction to Surah 2:

‘All through the Surah runs the note of warning, which sounds indeed throughout the whole Quran, that it is not the mere profession of a creed, but righteous conduct, which is true religion. There is the repeated announcement that the religion of Abraham, to which Judaism and Christianity trace their origin, is the only true religion, and that that religion consists in the surrender of man’s will and purpose to the Will and Purpose of the Lord of Creation as manifested in His creation and revealed by way of guidance through successive Prophets. --- Of sincerity, in that religion the one test is conduct, and the standard of that religion is for all alike.’

Btw, there was a whole Church full of people that witnessed my conversion.

Placid

i agree with all that is stated in the quran with no exception unlike you.

conduct goes hand in the hand with faith.you must state the tesimony of faith with the tongue and as a manifestation of the heart.if you want to become a muslim,you must state it with the intention of becoming one.also you must act as one which you have to convince us you do.DO YOU PLAN TO GO ON PILGRIMAGE TO MECCA AS AN ACT OF FAITH AND DEVOTION?

your claim that "there is the religion of Abraham (as) to which judaism and christianity trace their origin,is the only true religion" is not found in the quran.judaism and christianity as you rightly state "trace their origin" but are they really the religion of Abraham (as)?THEY HAVE UNDOUBTEDLY DIVERTED AND NO LONGER WITHIN THAT FRAME.

among christians,there are so many groups/sects that other than the umbrella of the name,and with all the sects claiming to be followers of christ,each can be classified as a separate religion.you cannot tell me that christians who believe in trinity follow the religion of Abraham (as).you cannot tell me those who believe God has a "begotten" son are followers of Abraham.you cannot tell me those who believe God was unjust and killed his son,thirsty for blood and revenge and placing the sins of mankind upon one man are the followers of Abraham.yes you rightly say "trace".the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) came to clarify things for you.you cannot tell me you're a muslim when you are telling me that Muhammad (pbuh) was lying on these issues and still claim you believe he was a true prophet.what bloody-liar are you?or are you trying to be smart to continue a book you are not associated with and with the intention to play with the minds of people?i dont find that smart but on the contrary.

besides,i am yet to hear one church of christianity who believe in Muhammad(pbuh).so i wonder how can your "whole church full with people" can witness your islamic faith.does your "whole church full with people" share your "belief" that Muhammad (pbuh) was a prophet of God?

finally,let me ask you what i earlier said i would.i asked you in my previous post but you ignored the question.here is the question:

the quran which you believe to be God's word revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) by Gabriel (as) says that Jesus (as) was not killed nor crucified.do you believe that?

Edited by mehdi soldier
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i then asked if you are muslim?

I have already told you that he is Christian. Please see my post # 19.

you want me to believe that you believe in the quran and you're a "muslim".

He is not a Muslim by any definition of the word.

the quran which you believe to be God's word revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) by Gabriel (as) says that Jesus (as) was not killed nor crucified.do you believe that?

He only believes of the Quran what does not conflict with his Christian beliefs.

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You do it all the time. Your only aim is to discredit. Too bad you can't get into the topic and possibly add something worthwhile.

Check with the Admin. They can track our IP addresses. They will find them some 3600 kilometres apart.

I think you prefer to have him hanging from a tree. A high branch if possible. It has to do with your form of justice, not hate.

Did you get a simple yes?

I think it was well broken down for you. You may now believe what you like. If you take a look at the title of the thread it says nothing about conforming to Mehdis religion, or requiring his approval before continuing. I believe you have your Muslim brother's best interest in mind, but these "missionary tactics" don't seem to be leading Muslims to Christianity do they now?

Could you please list the number of threads we have created that are designed to turn Muslims into Christians?

In site of the Quran burning idiot preacher of last week, it sparked a conversation at work. One said burn the Quran, another said may as well burn the Bible at the same time, they turned it onto burning the Torah as well. Quite frankly I was surprised they even knew there was a Torah. My response was they should stick them all together and figure out the truth. I seemed to be an acceptable answer and nobody talked about burning anything after that.

We are not separated by truth but by doctrine and tradition.

Do you think tradition might be different if Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad carried a Blackberry and a bottle of anti bacterial gel?

if there is anything relevant in your post,you'd find the reply in my reply to "Placid". (see previous post above).

I have already told you that he is Christian. Please see my post # 19.

He is not a Muslim by any definition of the word.

He only believes of the Quran what does not conflict with his Christian beliefs.

brother,your input is quite appreciated.in my country (lebanon) there is this saying: el7a2 el kazzab 3a bab daro!

let see where "Placid's" lies would take him.

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Salam All

I don't see why the question of whether placid is muslim or not is even relevant to the topic. All he wants to do in this thread is have an honest and beneficial discussion of Surat Hud. It doesn't matter if he's muslim, christian, jewish, athiest, ... let him be. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and beliefs.

Oby

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Hi Faithfully,

I read your above post but I think you intended it to be a response on another topic, did you not?

Hi Oby,

Sorry for the diversion from the topic.

Thank you for your understanding.

--- And this statement is right, " Everyone is entitled to their opinions and beliefs."

But in my case, because I have taken the bold step of studying Surah 11 for our mutual benefit, my opinions and beliefs are not enough, are they?

My simple desire is to understand these fundamentals of what the Quran says, and share it with readers here. Others who have opinions, and have comments on this revelation given to Muhammad, are invited to join us.

If what I write is not true, or is misleading, then I want to be told with the clarity that I try to use in explaining what the verses say.

As a Christian, I do have a purpose. you can call it an agenda if you like, but it is not a hidden agenda. I have stated often that the Quran relates the same message of truth for all mankind as the Gospel does.

Reading the Quran from the perspective of already knowing the former Scriptures, I have a positive attitude.--- I would like to see others share in this open examining of what the Quran teaches. --- (I encourage Christians to read the Quran, so they know what is in it, then they will be enlightened as to what it says, as opposed to what they hear that it says.)

--- I don't claim to understand all the difficult parts of Scripture, especially the OT, but I understand the Gospel message which is both 'good tidings, and a warning,' the same as Muhammad was giving.

--- This (11) was a late Meccan Surah so Muhammad was delivering the message to the unbelievers in Mecca as well as the believers who followed him.

Those who 'folded their breasts,' or 'closed up to God' were perhaps among those who plotted to kill Muhammad before he moved to Al-Madinah, --- but in all these things, God protected him.

--- One more thing, --- in my five years here I have never invited anyone to become a Christian.

I would like to see them become 'believing Muslims' according to what the Quran teaches.

I believe, with you, that the Quran is complete as it has been preserved and we can ask God to clarify it for us.

--- Those who have no personal faith in God may not receive understanding.

--- Those who thrive on division will continue to be critical.

But, Oby, if I give my understanding of these fundamentals, and you give your understanding, then we have the basis for discussion to arrive at the truth of what God's word teaches. And I hope others will comment.

If you read Surah 5;41-48, you will see where the Jews had their Torah to study and live by, and the Christians had their Gospel to live by, and the subject comes to a conclusion in v 48.

48. And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed. --- For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

--- These verses mention the three religions from Abraham, and say, --- FOR EACH, WE HAVE APPOINTED A DIVINE LAW AND A TRACED-OUT WAY.

They had to have the OT and NT on hand to say that, --- and the new Scriptures were to confirm the former Scriptures.

--- Therefore, It is not a case of converting to Christianity, or Islam, --- but it's a case of converting to GOD.

It is to HIM that we will all return.

--- I'm sure you understand that I identify with the meaning of Muslim by being 'surrendered unto God.'

--- Anyway, I will wait for your comments on Surah 11.

Placid

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