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In the Name of God بسم الله

Did Aga Khomeni (rh) Fall From His Coffin?

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brother orion n sis zareen can i ask you both a question? well, two.

firstly, are you even aware of the mass murder/ genocide which ayatollah khomeini directly ordered, and secondly what are your opinions on it?

how does this fit in with both your views that he was not evil? from where i stand he quite obviously was.

(salam)

I think Bro Onion is the best person to answer this question.

My opinion is that if there were wrong doings committed by the Iranian authority/government either intentionally (maliciously) or unintentionally (accident) then they have to come out clean and admit it.

If no one in Iran feels that they have committed any wrongdoing or if they choose to stay silent about the wrong doings, then you cannot do anything about this (nothing much you can do about this).

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(bismillah)

Did Prophet (S) allow people to break Quranic laws in the name of personal freedom. Will Imam Mahdi (ATF) allow his Shia to drink alcohol, listen to haram music, eat pork, dance with prostitutes and gamble all night long..... because its their free will???????

I honestly doubt muawiya (la) lived a single day of his life sober.

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If you have any video or document with Imam Khomeni's signature ordering mass murders please show it to us.

I don't recall reading anywhere that Yazid signed off a document for the murder of Imam Hussein and his family. You do not need a weapon in your hand to be responsible for a crime. Please before you shoot me, I am not comparing Khomeini with Yazid, but I think you get my point now.

One question- Do you not hold Saddam at all responsible for the actions of 'Chemical Ali' in Halabja? A yes or no will do.

Now could you please justify the actions of Sadeq Khalkhali-the hanging judge? Why did Khomeini not do anything?

Edited by koko313
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Now could you please justify the actions of Sadeq Khalkhali-the hanging judge? Why did Khomeini not do anything?

Maybe you could draw up a list of innocent people that Ayatollah Sadeq Khalkhali ordered to be excecuted, with proof of their innocence, than we can proceed with the discussion.

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Maybe you could draw up a list of innocent people that Ayatollah Sadeq Khalkhali ordered to be excecuted, with proof of their innocence, than we can proceed with the discussion.

Forgive me, I do not have a list of their names. But ask anyone who lived through the revolution, and they will tell you that every day it would be announced on the radio that there has been mistakes in the executions. They literally admit it and would apologize, but then announce the dead as Shaheed. This was the IRI radio-not BBC.

But I have to admit that there are a lot of rumors about him. Such as, he was always mentally ill and crazy. And a common one, especially between Iranians, is that he even executed a cat. I know for a fact that these are not true. Anyone who personally knew him would only give you good qualities about him-before he became Sharia Judge. But after Khomeini appointed him...power changed him.

Edited by koko313
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^ Sister, if it was being announced everyday on the radio, Im sure there must be many recordings of it, or news broadcasts where they admit to these supposed blunders.

You're right. My mum's hearing must have been terrible. Now I come to think of it, she doesn't hear me too well these days either.

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Dont you know from hadith that forces from Khorasan will come to support Imam Mahdi (ATF). Have you not heard that when Islam will disappear from other places it will be in Qom. How can you than say that the IRI supporters will call Imam (ATF) to be un-Islamic (astaghfarAllah)?

No doubt about such ahadith. But it is not necessary that they refer to Ayatollah Khomeini. We have ahadith about the destruction of Baghdad, and it has been destructed many times. Therefore there can be another man from Khorasan, and the disappearence of Islam from other places apart from Qum could be at a later date.

I am not saying Ayatollah Khomeini will be against the Imam (as), astaghfirullah.

I am saying that certain individuals who claim to be supporters of IRI might be in for a shock as to how Imam (as) deals with Sunnis, for example, and even Shias.

Maybe you could draw up a list of innocent people that Ayatollah Sadeq Khalkhali ordered to be excecuted, with proof of their innocence, than we can proceed with the discussion.

Why do you guys always work in the wrong order? You have to prove beyond doubt that a person is guilty before they are killed not the other way around. Imam Ali (as) was most stringent in using the legal process before killing anyone, and yet those who believe in Imam Ali (as) go round killing people based on accusations and hearsay? There's no doubt that a number of people that were executed by him were guilty, however, even if one person was innocent, I don't need to remind anyone of the verse of the Qur'an about that.

I don't see what the problem is - say that mistakes were made, since no one except the Imam (as) is infallible. Why are you trying to defend something you don't need to? It just reinforces the idea that you think the IRI is incapable of making mistakes and this opens you up to even more ridicule. This is what I mean about trying to put the government on the same level as the government of Imam (as).

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No doubt about such ahadith. But it is not necessary that they refer to Ayatollah Khomeini. We have ahadith about the destruction of Baghdad, and it has been destructed many times. Therefore there can be another man from Khorasan, and the disappearence of Islam from other places apart from Qum could be at a later date.

I am not saying Ayatollah Khomeini will be against the Imam (as), astaghfirullah.

I am saying that certain individuals who claim to be supporters of IRI might be in for a shock as to how Imam (as) deals with Sunnis, for example, and even Shias.

Khamanei maybe?

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(bismillah)

I don't recall reading anywhere that Yazid signed off a document for the murder of Imam Hussein and his family. You do not need a weapon in your hand to be responsible for a crime. Please before you shoot me, I am not comparing Khomeini with Yazid, but I think you get my point now.

Actually there was a letter written to the governor of Madinah. al-Tabari has recorded it in his book. Also its documented that Yazid played with the Holy head of Imam Hussain (as) with his stick, when presented to him.

One question- Do you not hold Saddam at all responsible for the actions of 'Chemical Ali' in Halabja? A yes or no will do.

Yes, I do. I have seen the photos and video of the killings at Halabja. This is well documented. Weather 'Chemical Ali' was directly involved is up to the court to decide.

Now could you please justify the actions of Sadeq Khalkhali-the hanging judge? Why did Khomeini not do anything?

Shiacolder786 has already answered your question (see above).

WS

LOL... thanks for giving me a good laugh :lol:

Yes, we will get only useless comments and emotion cartoons from you. But no straight answer.

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Why do you guys always work in the wrong order? You have to prove beyond doubt that a person is guilty before they are killed not the other way around. Imam Ali (as) was most stringent in using the legal process before killing anyone, and yet those who believe in Imam Ali (as) go round killing people based on accusations and hearsay? There's no doubt that a number of people that were executed by him were guilty, however, even if one person was innocent, I don't need to remind anyone of the verse of the Qur'an about that.

I don't see what the problem is - say that mistakes were made, since no one except the Imam (as) is infallible. Why are you trying to defend something you don't need to? It just reinforces the idea that you think the IRI is incapable of making mistakes and this opens you up to even more ridicule. This is what I mean about trying to put the government on the same level as the government of Imam (as).

Socrates, its not about whether the ISlamic Republic is fallible or not. Nobody says its perfect, but its beyond that. Being perfect is one thing, and implying that the IRI has massacred 1000s of innocent prisoners without thought, is another.

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(bismillah)

No doubt about such ahadith. But it is not necessary that they refer to Ayatollah Khomeini. We have ahadith about the destruction of Baghdad, and it has been destructed many times. Therefore there can be another man from Khorasan, and the disappearence of Islam from other places apart from Qum could be at a later date.

I am not saying Ayatollah Khomeini will be against the Imam (as), astaghfirullah.

I am saying that certain individuals who claim to be supporters of IRI might be in for a shock as to how Imam (as) deals with Sunnis, for example, and even Shias.

Why do you guys always work in the wrong order? You have to prove beyond doubt that a person is guilty before they are killed not the other way around. Imam Ali (as) was most stringent in using the legal process before killing anyone, and yet those who believe in Imam Ali (as) go round killing people based on accusations and hearsay? There's no doubt that a number of people that were executed by him were guilty, however, even if one person was innocent, I don't need to remind anyone of the verse of the Qur'an about that.

I don't see what the problem is - say that mistakes were made, since no one except the Imam (as) is infallible. Why are you trying to defend something you don't need to? It just reinforces the idea that you think the IRI is incapable of making mistakes and this opens you up to even more ridicule. This is what I mean about trying to put the government on the same level as the government of Imam (as).

Brother, all your comments above ^^^ are general. Use of words like "might be" and "could be" can go ether way. So I ask you again, if you have sold proof of any wrongdoings against IRI or any individual Ayatullah please bring it forward. Otherwise hold your peace.

WS

Socrates, its not about whether the ISlamic Republic is fallible or not. Nobody says its perfect, but its beyond that. Being perfect is one thing, and implying that the IRI has massacred 1000s of innocent prisoners without thought, is another.

Yes, exactly. Where is the evidence?

Show us proof.

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Shiacolder786 has already answered your question (see above).

Not really.

Yes, we will get only useless comments and emotion cartoons from you. But no straight answer.

What straight answers have we gotten from you? Why is it so hard for people to accept that innocent lives have been taken by the hands of the IRI? Why is it so hard to accept that innocnet people have been imprisoned just because of their protests? Half of which don't even have a trial-and are released after a few years. Sounds a bit like Gauntanamo.

Did our Imams imprison people without giving them a trial? Are you going to deny that prisoners have being tortured in Iran? Physical and mentally.. Do you not know what the rights of prisoner in Islam are, guilty or not?

We are not asking you to hate Khomeini and all the rest. Just take your head out of the hole its buried in and realize that there is some blood on his hands. 'Some' being the keyword here.

Edited by koko313
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(bismillah)

Brother, all your comments above ^^^ are general.

Yes because I am not arrogant like some of the people posting in this thread. The hadiths are general, where is your proof that they refer to Ayatollah Khomeini? As I said, they could refer to some other alim who might not even be born yet.

Yes, exactly. Where is the evidence?

Show us proof.

What do you consider evidence? Everything that comes from a source which is not IRI you will deny. So please let me know what are the sources you think are reliable then we can proceed.

Edited by Socrates
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What straight answers have we gotten from you? Why is it so hard for people to accept that innocent lives have been taken by the hands of the IRI? Why is it so hard to accept that innocnet people have been imprisoned just because of their protests? Half of which don't even have a trial-and are released after a few years. Sounds a bit like Gauntanamo.

Again, all we hear is rhetoric, rhetoric and more rhetoric... ''Why cant you believe this, why cant you believe that'' blah blah blah...

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Again, all we hear is rhetoric, rhetoric and more rhetoric... ''Why cant you believe this, why cant you believe that'' blah blah blah...

My mum's husband was in prison under Khomeini's regime for a good few years. Will you believe me? Will anyone believe he was innocent? No, of course you wouldn't. God forbid Iran imprisons an innocent person.

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orion, for the fiftieth time, every single thing ive claimed in this thread, i provided evidence for in the other one. i have told you where to look. go and look.

im not going to repost here, firstly because its difficult to do on my phone, and secondly it is obvious that you are no different to sunnis with cognitive dissonance refusing to even LOOK at evidence which negates your pretty little fantasies. they have their sahaba you have your imam.

by the way, how many times have you read namaz behind ayatollah khomeini for him to be your "imam"?

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(bismillah)

Once again guys. If anyone has any sold proof of wrongdoings by the IRI, proof that would stand in an Islamic sharia court, documents, videos, etc please show it to us. Otherwise stop your accusations and fitna mongering against IRI.

WS

Do correct me if I'm wrong..but you make it sound as if the IRI has not committed a single wrongdoing?

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(bismillah)

Yes because I am not arrogant like some of the people posting in this thread. The hadiths are general, where is your proof that they refer to Ayatollah Khomeini? As I said, they could refer to some other alim who might not even be born yet.

Yes they could refer to some other alims but they could also refer to these alims and this era.

What do you consider evidence? Everything that comes from a source which is not IRI you will deny. So please let me know what are the sources you think are reliable then we can proceed.

During the absence of our Imam al-Asr (ATF) we consider our qualified Fuqha to be our leaders and guides. As per the instructions of our Master Imam al-Asr (ATF) we should approach them regarding issues. If you think you have solid evidence against IRI, present it to the well recognized and accepted Maraja of our time. Get their opinion on the matter and we can proceed from there.

Do we have an agreement?

My mum's husband was in prison under Khomeini's regime for a good few years. Will you believe me? Will anyone believe he was innocent? No, of course you wouldn't. God forbid Iran imprisons an innocent person.

(bismillah)

I am sorry to hear that your Mom's husband was in prison. I understand this must be a sensitive issue for your Mom and yourself. But why was he kept in prison? What was he accused of. Was he tried in a court and punished. Or was he released.

Give us complete details.

WS

Do correct me if I'm wrong..but you make it sound as if the IRI has not committed a single wrongdoing?

Everyone should be considered innocent until proven otherwise. We can change our minds, but we need to see solid proof first.

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Something worth mentioning...

Seyed Muhammad Shirazi is quoted as saying:

And in Iran, I became imprisoned in my home, and happened to me what happened. If I wanted to write about what I suffered, it would not be a book with less than five hundred pages.

And they were not content with what they had done to me, so they arrested my two sons Sayyed Mortadhaa and Sayyed Mahdi, and arrested a number of my relatives and friends, and forced a number of them into exile. They also prohibited a large number of scholars and students from attending my lecture, and coerced the staff in our institutions to stay away, after they had taken over many of them. They also pursued my two other sons, making it necessary for one of them to migrate to Kuwait and the other to migrate to Syria.

During the past century, our family has, indeed, paid a heavy price for being related to the Great Shirazi Reviver[6], and to Ayatollaah al-Odhmaa Mohammad-Taqi Shirazi, leader of the 1920 revolution in Iraq, my father’s maternal uncle, and for the books that we publish, and the institutions that we establish.

What for? For a disagreement of opinion. I don't mean to turn this into a Shirazi/Khomeini argument, but Iran is absurd. Search Amnesty International, they have thousands of human rights violations against Iran.

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Something worth mentioning...

Seyed Muhammad Shirazi is quoted as saying:

What for? For a disagreement of opinion. I don't mean to turn this into a Shirazi/Khomeini argument, but Iran is absurd. Search Amnesty International, they have thousands of human rights violations against Iran.

First of all Amnesty International is not a reliable source, is it?

Second, if I remember correctly the issue with Aytullah Shirazi was beyond a disagreement of opinion. It had something to do with the Iran-Iraq war. Something very serious. But again I will have to check this one out. So please don't quote me on this.

WS

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(bismillah)

(salam)

اللهم صل علی محمد و آل محمد و عجل فرجهم

Allahumma sale ala Mohammad wa Ali Mohammad, wa Ajil Farajahum

Allah, The Most High revealed to Daniel saying, 'The most hated among my creatures are the ignorant ones who DISRESPECT the scholars and do not follow them...." (al-Kafi, H 61, Ch. 4, h 5)

may Allah(swt) behaqe muhammad (pbuh) wa ali muhammad (as) bless you bro orion

ps. positive criticism is fine but hateful criticism without proof and from the whims is an aid to the taghoot

(wasalam)

Edited by haideriam
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The sunnies spread a lot of lies about true islam. Even if imam khomanies body fell, how would that show any effect about the type of man he was? Allah created gravity and all objects are under it. I have never met a sunnie that was half the man that imam khomanie was. Ramadan mubarak Khoda hafiz

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what exactly is the problem between the iranian establishment and the shirazi family then?

And in Iran, I became imprisoned in my home, and happened to me what happened. If I wanted to write about what I suffered, it would not be a book with less than five hundred pages.And they were not content with what they had done to me, so they arrested my two sons Sayyed Mortadhaa and Sayyed Mahdi, and arrested a number of my relatives and friends, and forced a number of them into exile. They also prohibited a large number of scholars and students from attending my lecture, and coerced the staff in our institutions to stay away, after they had taken over many of them. They also pursued my two other sons, making it necessary for one of them to migrate to Kuwait and the other to migrate to Syria.

During the past century, our family has, indeed, paid a heavy price for being related to the Great Shirazi Reviver[6], and to Ayatollaah al-Odhmaa Mohammad-Taqi Shirazi, leader of the 1920 revolution in Iraq, my father’s maternal uncle, and for the books that we publish, and the institutions that we establish.

what is the problem with being related to the leader of the 1920 revolution in iraq?

if the answers could be kept short and to the point that might be best

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what exactly is the problem between the iranian establishment and the shirazi family then?

if the answers could be kept short and to the point that might be best

It has to do with the Iran-Iraq war.

I checked some old discussions on the issue. Ayatullah Shirazi wanted Iran to accept an offer by Saddam, while Iranian teratory was still under Iraqi occupation. i.e. Iraqi army was inside Iran.

WS

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It does not suprise me that a Aga Kohmeni post would go on for so long... I dont know what the Iran and Iraq war has got to do with him falling from his coffin, but anyway what I do find strange is why alot of his books on Irfan have not been translated. Why did he favour alot of the dervishes? is it true that his son was a dervish himself?

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First of all Amnesty International is not a reliable source, is it?

I'm not going to claim that Amnesty International are completely reliable, but on what basis are they so unreliable as to be completely dismissed? No source us going to be perfect. Since almost everyone seems to dislike Amnesty International, including America, Israel, and the Catholic Church, that tells me they must be doing something right. And if Amnesty Interational isn't acceptable, then what source would be? It's pretty unlikely that we are going to see Press TV doing any investigating into this any time soon.

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It has to do with the Iran-Iraq war.

I checked some old discussions on the issue. Ayatullah Shirazi wanted Iran to accept an offer by Saddam, while Iranian teratory was still under Iraqi occupation. i.e. Iraqi army was inside Iran.

WS

Really,it seems quite trivial,for all this bikering I thought it would be about jurisprudencial or maybe theological issues.

its not quite the same,but I heard that many high profile people at the time didn't think it was a good idea to conter attack and send troops into iraq,as it was felt they had too much backing from the west and the arabs. Apparent sayed khamenei and mir musavi both agreed on that point, I think rafsanjani was also leaning in that direction

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