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TrueImam

Dua Faraj = Shirk?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Yesterday I found studied du'a faraj and I notice these senteces at the end of the du'a.

O Muhammad, O Ali, O Ali, O Muhammad, Give me enough, because both of you provide sufficiently. Help me, because both of you help and protect.

O our master, O the living Imam, HELP! HELP! HELP!Reach me! Reach me! Reach me!

At once, in this hour. Be quick, be quick, be quick, O the most merciful, for the sake of Muhammad and his pure children.

Isn't this shirk? You are praying to Muhammad and Ali to help you and you say that they both help and protect and then praying to the living Imam to help you and reach you.

(wasalam)

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(salam)

Shirk, in one of its terms, is associating partners with Allah.

Tawassul is when you ask someone who is close to Allah to pray for your behalf to him. Thus, if you pray to any awliya, e.g. the Prophet thinking that only he has the power to help you then that is shrik. However, if you do tawassul, ie you seek intercession from awliya to present your case to Allah, that is not prohibited and is infact Sunnah. The Imams have said that they are many ways of reaching to Allah, and they, Ahlul Bayt, are the best form.

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The validity of tawassul is undoubted, my problem is the wording people use. To people who don't know about this "you can say what you want,how you want ,to who you want/pray to anyone" but as long as you have the right "intention" everything is fine. It doesn't sit right with me, I'm sure at least 25% of shi'a if not more believe they are praying to an imam, and the imams are all powerful, a quick look through shiachat shows that there are so many extremists out there who have completely twisted the roles that the imams (as) had and turned them into demi-gods.

What's worse with the type of wording 85% of people use is that if you ask them, yes or no,based on the sentence you just uttered,where you praying to an imam and asking him for help. The answer is yes,because Allah is rarely mentioned, then we get upset when people accuse us of shirk.

most of these accusations that get thrown at us, are not lies (even the worst things wahabis throw at us are not lies) rather they are generalizations, said either by a minority or in some cases more.

Because we are a minoriry and have been oppressed for many years, our scholars have this attitude where you can do anything you want,even hindu practices that you modify slightly (that's just one example), in shi'a islam anything goes as long as your intention is right, and you still think pf yourself as a shia. Even our so called extremist leaders are like this (I'm sure they themselves stick to the sunnah) , its the so called moderate ones who try and reign in these practices and we can see what they get for their troubles.

Imam Hussain (as) died for the sunnah of his grandfather (saww) we should respect that and loose what we have pointlessly added

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The validity of tawassul is undoubted, my problem is the wording people use. To people who don't know about this "you can say what you want,how you want ,to who you want/pray to anyone" but as long as you have the right "intention" everything is fine. It doesn't sit right with me, I'm sure at least 25% of shi'a if not more believe they are praying to an imam, and the imams are all powerful, a quick look through shiachat shows that there are so many extremists out there who have completely twisted the roles that the imams (as) had and turned them into demi-gods.

What's worse with the type of wording 85% of people use is that if you ask them, yes or no,based on the sentence you just uttered,where you praying to an imam and asking him for help. The answer is yes,because Allah is rarely mentioned, then we get upset when people accuse us of shirk.

most of these accusations that get thrown at us, are not lies (even the worst things wahabis throw at us are not lies) rather they are generalizations, said either by a minority or in some cases more.

Because we are a minoriry and have been oppressed for many years, our scholars have this attitude where you can do anything you want,even hindu practices that you modify slightly (that's just one example), in shi'a islam anything goes as long as your intention is right, and you still think pf yourself as a shia. Even our so called extremist leaders are like this (I'm sure they themselves stick to the sunnah) , its the so called moderate ones who try and reign in these practices and we can see what they get for their troubles.

Imam Hussain (as) died for the sunnah of his grandfather (saww) we should respect that and loose what we have pointlessly added

you have a point , no doubt (y) ... We love the Ahlul Bayt (as) ... But some people do take them as demi gods without realizing ...

That's why Rasulullah and the Imams (as) stressed upon KNOWLEDGE. It's a salvation from ignorance and the fire.

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most of these accusations that get thrown at us, are not lies (even the worst things wahabis throw at us are not lies) rather they are generalizations, said either by a minority or in some cases more.

Because we are a minoriry and have been oppressed for many years, our scholars have this attitude where you can do anything you want,even hindu practices that you modify slightly (that's just one example), in shi'a islam anything goes as long as your intention is right, and you still think pf yourself as a shia. Even our so called extremist leaders are like this (I'm sure they themselves stick to the sunnah) , its the so called moderate ones who try and reign in these practices and we can see what they get for their troubles.

Imam Hussain (as) died for the sunnah of his grandfather (saww) we should respect that and loose what we have pointlessly added

I disagree. No one thinks they pray to awliya, everyone prays to God. When you ask your devout friend to pray for you, you are asking them because you feel they have a special connection with Allah, you don't ask him because he is Nauozibillah God. Scholars preach no hindu practices and it is an insult that our community doesn't take their rulings seriously, their ruling are strict and strict they should be.

The best tawassul among the Ahlul Bayt is the tawassul of Imam Hussain (as) , lets glorify his sacrifice and learn from him through his example and make him our intercessor by following his teachings.

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Guest Muhamad

God decides who intercedes .. we can not make it happen, nor the prophets nor imams .. only God can give permission to start with .. also, God is guaranteed to know everything that is in our minds and the reality of everything.

Taking into consideration that God decides who gets intercession, doesn't it makes sense to ask God directly?? also considering that God hears you 100% and knows everything about you perfectly ??

so in theory it makes more sense to me that if I want intercession by some specific person, i will ask God for this to happen. like: "please God, let so-and-so intercede .. because You are the One who has authority over all affairs" .. as an example.

this is my humble opinion and may God forgive us all. I respect all opinions concerning this topic .. and soon we will know the truth for sure inshallah .. soon meaning judgment day .. (wasalam)

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It depends on the person.. u noe... i never do that ever.... but u knw there r some high high extremest shia's who can ... i'm a follower n ther r my masters soo asking n seeking masters help is not that big of a deal... n plus god sended them soo no point of shirk..... man your title just sacre the [Edited Out] outa me.. i swear i was abt to cry cuz i love this dua soo much cry.gif i even memorized it....

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Guest Muhamad

u r right completely and i know many many shia have this opinion: that dead and/or martyred prophets and imams can help us and protect us and provide for us .. and that they see everything and stuff .. in the beginning when i heard of this (am not shia nor suni) i was SHOCKEDDD!!! then i decided to take a more tolerant stance .. and felt that even if it is unintentional shirk God can fogive it .. the way i hope He will forgive my sins as well .. and i even have some intentional ones .. which im not proud of ... and the reason why i was so shocked was because the quran in FILLED with ayas warning against this .. but then again ..that's just for me. everybody seems to have their own interpretation of quran and life .. let's live and let live :) :lol:

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Scholars preach no hindu practices

i didn't say they preach, i said they don't condemn certain practices that clearly have no roots in islam, let me give you one example, in pakistan and india, there is a practice called 'khatam' pronouced ('kh' more like a strong 'h' but not quite like khalifa) anyways, the khatam is as follows, on the aniversary of someones death, you gather people at you home to read the Qur'an which of course is fine, now comes the hindu part, you cook that dead person's favourite food, you place it on the table, burn some incense and start praying over the food as an offering to the dead person-this is a clear hindu practice that they perform at funerals.

sunnis in the sub continent also do this practice, but from what i understand their scholars are saying this is not islamic and should be avoided. i have never heard of this practice in iran,iraq,lebanon,somalia,north africa, it is not a shi'a practice. i e-mailed najaf.org (sayed sistani) asking if this was a genuine islamic practice, the answer that came back was, "there is no problem with this", now i'm not saying its haram, but imitating kafirs is haram, so by my logic, it should at least be avoided, the person who replied to my e-mail should have just said, this is not an islamic pracitce,which what my question was.

I disagree. No one thinks they pray to awliya, everyone prays to God.

just because you roll in more educated circles,doesn't mean everyone is like that. one name that comes to mind on this site is a now banned member called "YaHu" but there are others. a few years ago, channel 4 (uk) done a few programs on islam,in the shi'a section, they went to mashad and got people to say on camera, "we are praying to Imam Reza", so tell me, do you know for sure what that person's intentions where, at least admit there is a 1% chance that he was actually praying to Imam Redha (as)

lets glorify his sacrifice

the "self" of the holy prophet (saww) giving up his life in the greatest sacrifice ever, the glory of this speaks for itself,amongst non muslims as well (gandhi,charles dickens and many more), my problem is with people who debase this sacrifice by exagerating the story and making up new events just to make people cry more, is the truth not enough?

learn from him through his example and make him our intercessor by following his teachings.

insha'Allah brother, insha'Allah

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Salaam

What we have to actually ask ourselves is the following questions:

1. Would any of the Imams (as) have said anything like this?

2. What are the words that people are saying. It is fair enough to discuss the niyyah of the individuals, but when something is being recited in public, the words themselves have to be analysed. Most of this thread has focussed on the fact taht some people's niyyah might be sincere. That is understandable but if I say: "Imam Ali is my God" and what I mean is that is he is my way to God, that might be considered okay in private....but in public, we have to focus on the words that are being said:

In this case, the words are:

íÇ ãÍãÌ íÇ Úáí íÇ Úáí íÇ ãÍãÏ

ÇßÝíÇäí ÝÃäßãÇ ßÇÝíÇä

i.e. Oh Muhammad, Oh Ali; Oh Ali, Oh Muhammad. You two are enough for me. Indeed (emphasis) you two are enough.

Now, let's consider the options:

1. A knowledgeable Shii who has a good niyyah - perhaps, he might understand that this means they are enough (given the fact that there is Allah, and because they together give you Islam and Shiism, which are enough to get you where you want)

2. A general Shii who is less educated - he is very well intentioned but hears a dua and takes it at face value - and focusses himself on these two individuals....from the words, he has no reason to understand anything other than what is being said...

3. A Sunni coming - woudl consider this Shirkh immediately

4. A non-Muslim coming - would consider this associating with God (or putting the Imam and Prophet ) to that level

It is clear that for those not well versed/thinking on these topics, such a phrase readily repeated in public, is likely to lead people astray in the fundamental belief of Allah being the Divine who is not only transcendent but yet He is so close...etc. - this language does not seem to fit wtih this way of thinking

Those are just my thoughts...

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(salam)

The honorable prophet (p) said:

"I was graced with five things. One of which being graced with intercession, so I limited this for my nation."

From the Quranic point of view, the absolute and the unconditional intercession is only effective if the interceder is permitted by God to intercede in the first place. The only group who have this privilege are those having spiritual proximity to God, and thus permitted to intercede others. The Holy Quran states in this regard:

"They shall not control intercession save he who has made a covenant with the beneficent God."

Yet in another verse, it says:

"On that day shall no intercession avail, except for him whom the Beneficent God allows and whose word He is pleased with."

The person that is worthy of receiving the intercession ought to have the merit to receive the divine grace through the interceder. i.e., his faith toward God and his spiritual bond toward the interceders creating a connection thereby. Therefore, the non-believers who don't have faith in Allah and among the sinners such as those who don't pray and commit other atrocities, like the murderers who lack the spiritual bond to their interceder, will definitely not be worthy of any intercession.

The Interpreters of Quran have difference in opinion regarding the result of intercession, be it forgiveness of sins or elevation of degree, however, when we regard the tradition of the Holy Prophet (p) the first point is more than obvious:

"My intercession on the day of judgment is even for those who commit great sins in my 'Ummah' (nation)"

Masnad ahmad, vol.1 p.301, sahih Bukhari, vol.1 p.91 print in Egypt.

According to the clear statement of the Holy Quran, the angles prostrated to Adam:

"So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, then fall down making obeisance to him. And the angles did obeisance, all of them."

Moreover, the sons of prophet Jacob (p), and even he himself, prostrated toward Joseph (p):

"And he raised his parents upon the throne and they fell down in prostration before him ..."

If such a submission was regarded as a form of worship to Prophet Jacob (p), the infallible, he wouldn't perform such an action and would not be pleased with his son's act of prostration, thus, this is only done because of considering prostration as being the highest sign of submission.

Therefore, we should separate the concept of submission or requesting from others, from the actual meaning of worship. The reality of worship is that the human considers any being as God and thereby performing worship in submission toward him; or considers a being as God's creature assigning Godly works to him in the manner that the management of the universe and the forgiveness of sins is allocated to him.

However, if our submission towards a certain person, would be such that we neither tend to consider him as God nor thinking that Godly works were assigned to him, such a submission is none other than merely respecting him; just as the angle's respect before Adam (p) and Jacob's sons respect towards Joseph (p).

When we regard the question carefully, it should also be noted that when thinking about the intercession entrusted only to the true interceders, who help intercede through the forgiveness of sins, such a belief can result in polytheism; because this is infact requisiting the work of God to other than Him. However, if the thought takes a turn, such that a group of God's pure slaves, without them being the actual possessors of the position of intercession, and in a specified framework, are merely granted the permission to cause intercession for the sinners, their belief in the unity of God remains intact.

We should not be heedless of the fact that the most important condition of all is God's permission and pleasure lying in the intercession. Thus it becomes clear that request for the intercession from a pious servant of God is not accompanied with regarding him to be God, nor necessitating the assignment of divine affairs to him, rather, the requesting of a favor from someone whose work is assigned by God to offer his intercession.

During the lifetime of the Prophet (p), we see that sinners would often come requesting for repentance to which the prophet never accused them of polytheism.

It is narrated in 'Sunnan Ibn-Majah' that the honorable Prophet said:

"Are you aware of the choice that the Lord has bestowed me tonight with?"

We said:

"Allah and His messenger possess the greatest knowledge."

He said:

"He gave me to choose between the half of my nation to enter paradise or 'intercession' and I chose the latter."

We said:

"O messenger of Allah, pray to the lord to make us of those people (the people who are worth receiving the intercession)."

He said:

"Intercession is for every Muslim."

In the above-mentioned tradition, the companions of the Prophet undoubtedly requested intercession from him; by saying:

'Pray to Allah."

The Holy Quran also mentions:

"And had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked for forgiveness from Allah and His apostle who in turn had asked forgiveness to Allah for them, they would have found Allah to be oft-returning, Merciful."

In yet another instance, Quran speaks of the sons of Jacob (p) saying:

"They said: O our father, We ask for forgiveness for the faults we have committed, surely we were the sinners."

To which Jacob (p) promised them forgiveness and never accused them of polytheism. He said:

"I shall ask the forgiveness for you from my Lord; surely He is the All-Forgiving, the All-Merciful."

If a monotheist and God-knowing farmer receives help from elements such as earth, water, air and sunlight for the growth of his plants, he is in reality seeking help from none other than God, because it is solely He, who gives the elements the means, power and ability to grow.

It thus becomes clear that the seeking of help is in complete agreement with the spirit of unification and monotheism. Furthermore, the Holy Quran commands us to seek help from phenomenon (such as perseverance and prayers), where it clearly says:

"And seek assistance through patience and prayer, and most surely it is a hard task except for the humble ones."

It is therefore obvious that patience and persistence are works and we are demanded to seek help from them; Meanwhile, such help-seeking is not in disagreement with restricting aid to God in the verse,

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Just because someone has been granted intercession, it doesn't mean you can pray to them. All this intention stuff doesn't really wash with me. It might be fine for the people that really understand what is going on, but the less educated don't know the difference. I was watching ahlul bayt tv a while ago and some guy phoned in and made it explicit that he was praying to the imams (as), and he continued to do so after being told it was shirk by someone he met. The guest and the presenter didn't even flinch, and they didn't tell him to at least make sure he had the right intention. What we need to be doing is to make sure that when we are seeking intercession, we make it explicit, not implicit. All this does is lead to confusion.

Islam is a religion where we are always kept at arm's length from sin. That is why we have hijab, the concept of non-mahram, no alcohol, no music, no backbiting, etc. All of this is to make sure we stay for from serious sins. But then when it comes to the greatest sin, shirk, somehow it is acceptable to be walking a fine line that only depends on intention. Well, that doesn't really make sense to me.

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(salam)

(bismillah)

This is what I have seen from the "primary" sources. The earliest source I have found this du`aa is from Al-Balad Al-Ameen, by Al-Kaf`amee, who died in the year 905 AH. Al-Majlisi quotes this in his BiHaar, he only quotes this from Al-Kaf`amee's book.

و في رواية أخرى ثم ضع خدك الأيمن على الأرض و قل مائة مرة يا محمد يا علي يا علي يا محمد اكفياني فإنكما كافيان و انصراني فإنكما ناصران ثم ضع خدك الأيسر و قل مائة مرة أدركني أدركني ثم تقول الغوث الغوث حتى ينقطع النفس

Before the du`aa it says:

"Then place your right cheek on the earth and say 100 times "يا محمد يا علي يا علي يا محمد اكفياني فإنكما كافيان و انصراني فإنكما ناصران" then place your left cheek (on the earth) and say 100 times "أدركني أدركني ثم تقول الغوث الغوث" Until you break yourself (?)"

  • Source:
  • Al-Kaf`amee, Al-Balad Al-Ameen, pg. 152
  • Al-Majlisi, BiHaar Al-Anwaar, vol. 87, ch. 6, pg. 38, hadeeth # 6

Here is the chain or lack there of chain. It is a mursal chain.

و منها ما رواه عبد الملك بن عمير عن الصادق ع قال

Not really much of a chain, and the primary narrator (`Abd Al-Malik bin `Umayr) is Majhool (Unknown) according to Al-Khoei.

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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Guest Muhamad

Islam is a religion where we are always kept at arm's length from sin.

very well said .. even though we are to submit 100% to Allah and His commandments, we need to always ask ourselves critically what we are doing and what we see as the truth and best practice. Islam is about renewal, rejuvination, and rebirth. That's why we have to symblically enter into our religion five times a day by reading the fatha (opening) in our prayers again and again. We are to learn and remain humble till the moment we die. The same way that few muslims will disagree when i say that Islam is in harmony with modernity, science and progress; we need to always pull out the weeds in our religion, and wash our souls and practices. As long as we stay cool and friendly and tolerant, nothing can go wrong. May Allah bless us all and forgive us and guide us through this critical time. (wasalam) :)

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It might be fine for the people that really understand what is going on, but the less educated don't know the difference. I was watching ahlul bayt tv a while ago and some guy phoned in and made it explicit that he was praying to the imams (as), and he continued to do so after being told it was shirk by someone he met. The guest and the presenter didn't even flinch, and they didn't tell him to at least make sure he had the right intention. What we need to be doing is to make sure that when we are seeking intercession, we make it explicit, not implicit. All this does is lead to confusion.

(salam)

If some has as much as read even a Surah, they can decipher that worship belongs only to Allah. Perhaps the issue could do with some clearing in lectures, but in my opinion Muslims know that awliya are not nauzobillah like Hindu Gods that you pray to. The Imams has said that people who do not believe in intercession are not Muslims.

But then when it comes to the greatest sin, shirk, somehow it is acceptable to be walking a fine line that only depends on intention. Well, that doesn't really make sense to me.

I encourage more lectures on shirk, knowledge to what exactly it is. However, I would strongly disagree that tawassul in Shia Islam opens doors to shirk. Tawassul is an edict of Islam, appointed by Allah swt himself. Most people cannot grasp in their minds that they are some people who have won over the desire of Allah, so much so, that whatever pleases them, pleases Allah and whatever hurts them, hurts Allah.

(salam)

Not really much of a chain, and the primary narrator (`Abd Al-Malik bin `Umayr) is Majhool (Unknown) according to Al-Khoei.

(salam)

(wasalam)

Most duas we recite don't have authentic chains.

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Most duas we recite don't have authentic chains.

I know that, but that being said, if you notice people don't read this du`aa in this way, they just read it like a normal du`aa without putting your right and left cheek on the earth.

After researching some more on this du`aa it seems to have different variation through different sources. Which should raise some "red flags" about this du`aa. The version that is normally read that can be found here: http://www.duas.org/azbala Has no chain actually and it is found in Al-Kaf`amee's Al-Balad Al-Ameen, pg. 176

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Try finding the authencity of duas and ziyarats and Mafatih ul Jinan, the book every Shia has, it may shock you.

True, but we still have du`aas with SaHeeH sanad. This du`aa goes against the true essence of tawHeed. As no where in this du`aa does it say "I am asking Muhammad and `Alee as a waseelah to Allaah".

I have posted a du`aa on my blog that has a SaHeeH sanad. Click here: http://revivingalislaam.blogspot.com/2010/09/saheeh-supplications-duaa-al-iftitaah.html

The one on duas.org is a little different than what is found in the original source (Tahdheeb Al-aHkaam)

(salam)

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Seriously , guys .... First of all .. To the O.P .. Don't let those wahabbis brain wash you ...

Of course Allah (swt) can hear, see and knows you inside out ... Those who put the common arguement out "why go to someone else when can go to Allah who is nearest to us?" (zakir naik *cough*) ....

Well let me tell you something ... Allah has said in an authentic Hadith " if you want something from Me , then resort to these 5 personalities : Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain ... I have created them from my names and my glory ... I swear, anyone who has an atoms weight of grudge against them shall surely be cast into hell" ...

Also these are martyred holy personalities , and so they are still alive as The Quran says ... Ahlul Bayt are the gateway to Duas being accepted and Mercy from Allah swt. Intercession to Allah through them has been granted by Allah swt.

You can say "I am praying to Imam Ridha (as)" since He is from the ahlul bayt and is a true intercessor and you can speak to him and ask your duas to him asking that Allah accepts it!

Some people haven't understood Allah ... If he knows you inside out , does he not know your deepest thoughts and intentions?

W Salam ...

Don't be a loser . Seek help from Allah through the Ahlul Bayt , the true intecessors for us today and on the day of judgement .

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Seriously , guys .... First of all .. To the O.P .. Don't let those wahabbis brain wash you ...

Of course Allah (swt) can hear, see and knows you inside out ... Those who put the common arguement out "why go to someone else when can go to Allah who is nearest to us?" (zakir naik *cough*) ....

That isn't the argument here, it's between asking Allah through the Masumeen (as), and asking the Masumeen (as) with no mention of Allah (swt) but supposedly with the 'right intention'.

Well let me tell you something ... Allah has said in an authentic Hadith " if you want something from Me , then resort to these 5 personalities : Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain ... I have created them from my names and my glory ... I swear, anyone who has an atoms weight of grudge against them shall surely be cast into hell" ...

Do you have a reference?

Also these are martyred holy personalities , and so they are still alive as The Quran says ... Ahlul Bayt are the gateway to Duas being accepted and Mercy from Allah swt. Intercession to Allah through them has been granted by Allah swt.

Yes, they aren't dead, but how does that prove that they can hear us? Do we have any hadith that say martyrs can hear the living?

You can say "I am praying to Imam Ridha (as)" since He is from the ahlul bayt and is a true intercessor and you can speak to him and ask your duas to him asking that Allah accepts it!

Praying to Imam Ridha (as)? That doesn't sound right to me at all.

Some people haven't understood Allah ... If he knows you inside out , does he not know your deepest thoughts and intentions?

If I have the correct intention can I be alone with a non-mahram woman? Can I shake her hand, or exchange kisses on the cheek, if I have the right intention?

I find it strange that something that on its own is clearly haram becomes ok if you have the right intention.

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Assalamu Aleykum,

It there any book that check the authenticty of every shia duas ?

(salam)

(bismillah)

True, but we still have du`aas with SaHeeH sanad. This du`aa goes against the true essence of tawHeed. As no where in this du`aa does it say "I am asking Muhammad and `Alee as a waseelah to Allaah".

I have posted a du`aa on my blog that has a SaHeeH sanad. Click here: http://revivingalislaam.blogspot.com/2010/09/saheeh-supplications-duaa-al-iftitaah.html

The one on duas.org is a little different than what is found in the original source (Tahdheeb Al-aHkaam)

(salam)

Could you tell me what is the link between At-Toosi and Al-Kulayni ? because i don't understand how could this chain be sahih. Shukran akhi

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Assalamu Aleykum,

It there any book that check the authenticty of every shia duas ?

Could you tell me what is the link between At-Toosi and Al-Kulayni ? because i don't understand how could this chain be sahih. Shukran akhi

There is no book that I know of that is like "SaHeeH MiFaateeH Al-Jinaan", which includes only SaHeeH du`aas and ziyaraats.

No need for a link in between, when he is directly getting it from Al-Kulayni's book, Al-Kaafi. But this du`aa isn't mentioned in Al-Kaafi. If you will notice Al-Toosi gets a lot of of aHaadeeth that are in his Tadheeb and Al-IstibSaar directly from Al-Kulayni, that is because it comes from Al-Kaafi.

(salam)

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Could you tell me what is the link between At-Toosi and Al-Kulayni ? because i don't understand how could this chain be sahih. Shukran akhi

Often if not usually Tusi will not list his full isnad to the chain (such as how he'lll commonly state an isnad from al-Husayn b. Sa`id). Doing so would make for rather long chains to be written. You can find the full linkage though elsewhere, such as his mashyakha at the end of al-Istibsar. In regards to his paths to al-Kulayni, he writes:

(فما ذكرته) عن محمد بن يعقوب الكليني رحمه الله فقد اخبرنا به الشيخ

المفيد أبوعبدالله محمد بن محمد بن النعمان الحارثي البغدادي رحمة الله عليه(1

عن أبي القاسم جعفر بن محمد بن قولويه(1) عن محمد بن يعقوب، واخبرنا به ايضا الحسين بن عبيدالله عن(2) أبي غالب أحمد بن محمد

الزراري(1) وأبي محمد هارون بن موسى التلعكبرى(2) وأبي القاسم جعفر بن محمد بن قولويه وأبي عبدالله أحمد بن أبي رافع

الصيمري(1) وأبي المفضل الشيباني(2) وغيرهم كلهم عن محمد بن يعقوب وأخبرنا ايضا أحمد بن عبدون المعروف بابن الحاشررحمة الله

عليه(1) عن أحمد بن رافع وأبي الحسين عبدالكريم بن عبدالله بن نصر البزاز بتنيس(2) وبغداد عن أبي جعفر محمد بن يعقوب الكليني جميع مصنفاته وأحاديثه سماعا واجازة ببغداد بباب الكوفة درب السلسلة سنة سبع وعشرين وثلثمائة.

No need for a link in between, when he is directly getting it from Al-Kulayni's book, Al-Kaafi. But this du`aa isn't mentioned in Al-Kaafi. If you will notice Al-Toosi gets a lot of of aHaadeeth that are in his Tadheeb and Al-IstibSaar directly from Al-Kulayni, that is because it comes from Al-Kaafi.

al-Kulayni wrote books other than al-Kafi, but like so much of the literature of that time it hasn't come down to us today. Tusi however would have had access to such material that he lists in his Fihrist.

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. a few years ago, channel 4 (uk) done a few programs on islam,in the shi'a section, they went to mashad and got people to say on camera, "we are praying to Imam Reza", so tell me, do you know for sure what that person's intentions where, at least admit there is a 1% chance that he was actually praying to Imam Redha (as)

That was an extremely badly made documentary and the translator was very poor. The man in Persian had said that Imam Reza (as) gives us hope, which is why come to pray to Allah at his shrine, and the translator just messed it up.

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We don't need to go to channel 4 documentaries. There are people on this site, and even on this very thread, that say it's ok to pray to Imams (as) as long as you have the right 'intention'.

Depends what how you define "pray". If you ask an Imam (as) for help, in the way that you would ask an ordinary human being for help, then obviously there's no problem with that. If you ask an Imam (as) in the way that you pray to Allah (swt), that he is able to help you independently, then obviously that is shirk. But I don't see how anyone, even a person who has basic knowledge, could think that the Imam (as) could help a person independently in the way that Allah (swt) could help.

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Depends what how you define "pray". If you ask an Imam (as) for help, in the way that you would ask an ordinary human being for help, then obviously there's no problem with that. If you ask an Imam (as) in the way that you pray to Allah (swt), that he is able to help you independently, then obviously that is shirk. But I don't see how anyone, even a person who has basic knowledge, could think that the Imam (as) could help a person independently in the way that Allah (swt) could help.

I'm sorry, but even if you are aware that the Imam (as) gets his power from Allah (swt), I don't think it is right to make dua to him. You talk about asking a normal human being for things, but when I ask someone for something I don't speak to them in the same way as when I make dua to Allah (swt). What you guys argue is that nothing is shirk as long as you know that Allah (swt) is the prime source of power.

Could someone show me an example of an Imam 'praying' to a previous Imam, or the Prophet (pbuh), in this way? Can someone show me a hadith where an Imam says that after he passes from this life, he will be able to hear our prayers, know our thoughts, and have power over all things?

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I'm sorry, but even if you are aware that the Imam (as) gets his power from Allah (swt), I don't think it is right to make dua to him. You talk about asking a normal human being for things, but when I ask someone for something I don't speak to them in the same way as when I make dua to Allah (swt). What you guys argue is that nothing is shirk as long as you know that Allah (swt) is the prime source of power.

What you think, with all due respect, is irrelevant. Unless you can prove it to be incorrect from the sources, it isn't shirk.

Could someone show me an example of an Imam 'praying' to a previous Imam, or the Prophet (pbuh), in this way? Can someone show me a hadith where an Imam says that after he passes from this life, he will be able to hear our prayers, know our thoughts, and have power over all things?

To suggest that this is not possible is shirk in itself, because it means limiting the power of Allah. He has the capability to do everything.

No need for ahadith, when we have a verse of the Qur'an:

And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you; (Surah Baqarah, verse 143)

The medium nation are the Imams (as)

How will it be, then, when We bring from every people a witness and bring you as a witness against these? (Surah Nisa, verse 41)

The Holy Prophet is a witness over all nations, past and present.

There can be no witnessing unless they know what is happening.

Edited by Socrates

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To suggest that this is not possible is shirk in itself, because it means limiting the power of Allah. He has the capability to do everything.

that is a pointless line of argument, as obviously, Allah(swt) can do anything, the point is would He. i don't think anyone wants to limit Allah's power, but we should make sure we limit worship to Allah

Edited by ShahHussain

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What you think, with all due respect, is irrelevant. Unless you can prove it to be incorrect from the sources, it isn't shirk.

The problem is you wouldn't accept what the sources say. Instead of accepting the clear verses, you want to twist the less clear ones, like you did later in your post.

To suggest that this is not possible is shirk in itself, because it means limiting the power of Allah. He has the capability to do everything.

Did I say is wasn't possible? No, I didn't. Anything is possible by the will of Allah (swt), but just because something is possible doesn't mean it is actually happening. The burden of proof is on proving that it is happening, not on saying it is possible, or asking someone to prove it isn't happening. Quite frankly, the fact that this tired argument of it being possible get brought up every single time indicates how weak the case is.

No need for ahadith, when we have a verse of the Qur'an:

And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you; (Surah Baqarah, verse 143)

The medium nation are the Imams (as)

How will it be, then, when We bring from every people a witness and bring you as a witness against these? (Surah Nisa, verse 41)

The Holy Prophet is a witness over all nations, past and present.

There can be no witnessing unless they know what is happening.

I don't find your explanation very convincing. Do you at least have a tafsir to back this up?

Anyway, this has been debated many times on this site by others, and I'm sure will be debated many times in the future. I don't have any interest in starting a discussion on this now, since they end up going nowehere. Those that want to believe it, will believe it regardless.

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The problem is you wouldn't accept what the sources say. Instead of accepting the clear verses, you want to twist the less clear ones, like you did later in your post.

You haven't quoted any sources at all. Try me.

I don't find your explanation very convincing. Do you at least have a tafsir to back this up?

What's unconvincing about it? Would you like to present an alternative view? Go check out all of the tafasir from the school of Ahlul Bayt (as) and this is what they say. In fact, you might be interested to note that even Sunnis use these verses to prove to Wahhabis that the Prophet (pbuh) is alive and can hear us.

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You haven't quoted any sources at all. Try me.

I'm sure they have all been presented in previous threads on this topic, as have your proofs.

[]quote

What's unconvincing about it? Would you like to present an alternative view? Go check out all of the tafasir from the school of Ahlul Bayt (as) and this is what they say. In fact, you might be interested to note that even Sunnis use these verses to prove to Wahhabis that the Prophet (pbuh) is alive and can hear us.

Hearing and knowing your thoughts aren't the same thing. Neither does this say anything about having the power to answer prayers.

We are going to go in circles on this issue. I believe both of our positions are clear, and I don't think this is an issue either of us are going to change our views on.

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