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Isa Abdullah

Imam's Opinions In The Two Musannafs

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(salam)

Interesting thoughts, although i believe you have already expressed them in regards to these narrations before. I think some conclusions are a bit hasty, but of course that comes with being subjective (which we all are to some extent). Keep them coming though, as it will give us a better picture of the Imams according to non-Imami sources. If that leads someone to Imami Shi'ism, then so be it. However if it does not, it gives the Sunnis and other non-Imamis a better chance at following the Imams, and a glimpse into their ideas and opinions.

wa salam

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Brother avjar, i think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that this necessairly proves that the Imams were different from everyone else. Afterall, the overwhelming majority of their hadiths in the musannafs are "normal"; they don't really contridict the majority sect.

And even some of the stuff that is seen as "odd" isn't really that odd. For example, there's a disagreement about wiping over the khuffayn in Sunni Islam. And the Shafi'iees allow for the Qunut in certain prayers as well, and ibn 'Umar used to sometimes say "Hayya 'ala khayril 'amal as well.

Even hadiths like "don't forsake the Basmallah" aren't really that strange/unique to be frank.

And some of the narrations go against some commonly held Shia ideas. For example:

حدثنا حاتم بن إسماعيل عن جعفر عن أبيه قال : جاء علي إلى عمر وهو مسجى فقال : ما على وجه الارض أحد أحب إلي أن ألقى الله بصحيفته من هذا المسجى

Hatim bin Isma'il narrated to us from Ja'far from his fater, who said: Ali came to 'Umar while he was lying down and said, "There is no one on the face of this earth that I would rather meet Allah(swt) with his sheet of deeds than this person who is lying down ('Umar).

Or Ayatullah Sistani says that your prayer is batil based on precaution if you do a sajdah whils reciting (HERE #992), yet here's a hadith in the Musannaf of ibn Abi Shaybah from al-Baqir saying that the Prophet(pbuh) did this very action:

حدثنا أبو بكر قال نا شريك عن جابر عن أبي جعفر قال قرأ النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم في صلاة مكتوبة سجدة ثم سجد

Abu Bakr narrated to us. He said: Shareek informed us from Jabir from Abi Ja'far, who said:

"The Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم recited [a surah/ayat with a] sajdah during a wajib prayer, then did sujud.

And there's many hadiths where al-Baqir asks Jabir ibn Abdullah (ra) about hadiths from the Prophet(pbuh). If he was a dinvely-appointed figure, why is he always asking Jabir bin Abdullah (ra)?

Heck, al-Baqir even narrates from Abu Hurayrah here:

حدثنا خلف بن خليفة عن أبي مالك الاشجعي عن أبي جعفر عن أبي هريرة قال تضاعف صلاة الجماعة على صلاة الوحدة خمسا وعشرين درجة

And from what i remember of the Musannaf of ibn Abi Shaybah in particular, there's many narrations of the Prophet(pbuh) folding his hands while prayer and even hadiths of Ali(as) doing this. Yet in the section of the people who pray with their arms by their sides, i don't recall seeing any hadiths of the Prophet(pbuh) doing this, nor the Imam. There was only hadiths from a couple tabi'is who didn't pray with their arms folded. But nothing from the Prophet(pbuh)

Just some of my ideas on this, if you wish to comment.

was salam

Edited by lotfilms

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Brother avjar, i think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that this necessairly proves that the Imams were different from everyone else. Afterall, the overwhelming majority of their hadiths in the musannafs are "normal"; they don't really contridict the majority sect.

And even some of the stuff that is seen as "odd" isn't really that odd. For example, there's a disagreement about wiping over the khuffayn in Sunni Islam. And the Shafi'iees allow for the Qunut in certain prayers as well, and ibn 'Umar used to sometimes say "Hayya 'ala khayril 'amal as well.

Even hadiths like "don't forsake the Basmallah" aren't really that strange/unique to be frank.

And some of the narrations go against some commonly held Shia ideas. For example:

ÍÏËäÇ ÍÇÊã Èä ÅÓãÇÚíá Úä ÌÚÝÑ Úä ÃÈíå ÞÇá : ÌÇÁ Úáí Åáì ÚãÑ æåæ ãÓÌì ÝÞÇá : ãÇ Úáì æÌå ÇáÇÑÖ ÃÍÏ ÃÍÈ Åáí Ãä ÃáÞì Çááå ÈÕÍíÝÊå ãä åÐÇ ÇáãÓÌì

Hatim bin Isma'il narrated to us from Ja'far from his fater, who said: Ali came to 'Umar while he was lying down and said, "There is no one on the face of this earth that I would rather meet Allah(swt) with his sheet of deeds than this person who is lying down ('Umar).

Or Ayatullah Sistani says that your prayer is batil based on precaution if you do a sajdah whils reciting (HERE #992), yet here's a hadith in the Musannaf of ibn Abi Shaybah from al-Baqir saying that the Prophet(pbuh) did this very action:

ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ÈßÑ ÞÇá äÇ ÔÑíß Úä ÌÇÈÑ Úä ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ ÞÇá ÞÑà ÇáäÈí Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã Ýí ÕáÇÉ ãßÊæÈÉ ÓÌÏÉ Ëã ÓÌÏ

Abu Bakr narrated to us. He said: Shareek informed us from Jabir from Abi Ja'far, who said:

"The Prophet Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã recited [a surah/ayat with a] sajdah during a wajib prayer, then did sujud.

And there's many hadiths where al-Baqir asks Jabir ibn Abdullah (ra) about hadiths from the Prophet(pbuh). If he was a dinvely-appointed figure, why is he always asking Jabir bin Abdullah (ra)?

Heck, al-Baqir even narrates from Abu Hurayrah here:

ÍÏËäÇ ÎáÝ Èä ÎáíÝÉ Úä ÃÈí ãÇáß ÇáÇÔÌÚí Úä ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ Úä ÃÈí åÑíÑÉ ÞÇá ÊÖÇÚÝ ÕáÇÉ ÇáÌãÇÚÉ Úáì ÕáÇÉ ÇáæÍÏÉ ÎãÓÇ æÚÔÑíä ÏÑÌÉ

And from what i remember of the Musannaf of ibn Abi Shaybah in particular, there's many narrations of the Prophet(pbuh) folding his hands while prayer and even hadiths of Ali(as) doing this. Yet in the section of the people who pray with their arms by their sides, i don't recall seeing any hadiths of the Prophet(pbuh) doing this, nor the Imam. There was only hadiths from a couple tabi'is who didn't pray with their arms folded. But nothing from the Prophet(pbuh)

Just some of my ideas on this, if you wish to comment.

was salam

salam.gif

How do you interpret these narrations in light of shia fiqh/aqeeda?

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(bismillah)

salam.gif

How do you interpret these narrations in light of shia fiqh/aqeeda?

و عليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

It could mean a few things:

1) That the Imams indeed had their own school of fiqh that the Shia dutifully preserved

2) That the Imams indeed had their own school of fiqh and were indeed wise, rightly guided men, but that the Rafidha took the good sayings of the Imams and invented exaggerated lies against them, just like other sects did.

3) That the Imams were great scholars and taught many people, but that they weren't really much different from the other scholars from the time, or even really that different from their brothers/cousins that 12ers tend to ignore

i'm wavering between #1 and #2, with a slight lean towards #2

As i said, most of the hadiths from the Imams in these book are completely normal; no one would have any issues with them. Some narrations are more Shia-leaning and there are narrations that Shias would find hard to accept. This is one of those:

حدثنا وكيع ثنا سفيان عن إبراهيم بن أبي حفصة قال قلت لعلي بن حسين إن أبا حمزة الثمالي وكان فيه غلو يقول لا نصلي خلف الائمة ولا نناكح إلا من يرى مثل ما رأينا فقال علي بن حسين بل نصلي خلفهم ونناكحهم بالسنة

Wakee' narrated to us. Sufyan [informed] us from Ibrahim bin Abi Hafsa, who said, "I said to Ali bin Husayn that Aba Hamza al-Thumali--and he has/had ghulu in him--says 'We don't pray behind the leaders (ie the rulers of the time) and we don't marry except the one who sees what we see (ie. have the same views as us).'" So Ali bin Husayn said, "Nay, we pray behind them and we marry them by the Sunnah."

Or for example, brother avjar emphasized that the Imams said "The Book came before the wiping." Well, while this statement is true, they weren't the only ones who said it. Look at the chapter of "من كان لا يرى المسح" in the Musannaf of ibn Abi Shaybah for a host of narrations from other people where they said the same thing:

217- من كان لا يرى المسح

1 - حدثنا هشيم قال أنا يحيى بن سعيد عن القاسم بن محمد عن عائشة قالت لان أخرجهما بالسكاكين أحب إلي من أن أمسح عليهما .

2 - حدثنا هشيم عن إسماعيل بن سالم قال خرج مجاهد وأصحاب له فيهم عبدة بن أبي لبابة قال خرجوا حجاجا فكان عبدة يؤمهم في الصلاة قال فبرز ذات يوم لحاجته بأبطأ عليهم فلما جاء قال له مجاهد ما حبسك قال ربما قضيت حاجتي ثم توضأت ومسحت على خفي فقال له مجاهد تقدم فصل بنا فما أدري ما حسب صلاتك .

3 - حدثنا حاتم بن إسماعيل عن جعفر عن أبيه قال قال علي سبق الكتاب الخفين .

4 - حدثنا علي بن مسهر عن عثمان بن حكيم عن عكرمة عن ابن عباس قال سبق الكتاب الخفين .

5 - حدثنا ابن علية عن روح بن القاسم عن ابن طاوس عن أبيه قال قال ابن عباس لو قالوا ذلك في السفر والبرد الشديد .

6 - حدثنا ابن فضيل عن ضرار بن مرة عن سعيد بن جبير قال قال ابن عباس ما أبالي مسحت على الخفين أو مسحت على ظهر بختي هذا .

7 - حدثنا هشيم عن القاسم بن أيوب قال رآني سعيد بن جبير وأنا أمسح على خفين لي أبيضين قال فقال لي ما يفسد خفيك .

8 - حدثنا ابن إدريس عن فطر قال قلت لعطاء إن عكرمة يقول قال ابن عباس سبق الكتاب الخفين فقال عطاء كذب عكرمة أنا رأيت ابن عباس يمسح عليهما .

9 - حدثنا يونس بن محمد قال نا عبد الواحد بن زياد قال حدثنا إسماعيل بن سميع قال حدثني أبو زرين قال قال أبو هريرة ما أبالي على ظهر خفي مسحت أو على ظهر خمار .

10 - حدثنا يحيى بن أبي بكير قال حدثنا شعبة عن أبي بكر بن حفص قال سمعت عروة بن الزبير عن عائشة قالت لان أخرجهما أو أخرج أصابعي بالسكين أحب إلي من أن أمسح عليهما .

11 - حدثنا جرير عن حصين عن الشعبي قال المسح على الخفين مرة .

12 - حدثنا أبو أسامة عن أشعث عن الحسن قال يمسح على الخفين مسحة واحدة .

13 - حدثنا عبد الرحيم بن سليمان عن سليمان قال رأيت إبراهيم توضأ ومسح على خفيه مرة واحدة .

14 - حدثنا الثقفي عن أبي عامر الخزاز قال حدثنا الحسن عن المغيرة بن شعبة قال رأيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم بال ثم جاء حتى توضأ ومسح على خفيه ووضع يده اليمنى على خفه الايمن ويده اليسرى على خفه الايسر ثم مسح أعلاهما مسحة واحدة حتى كأني أنظر إلى أصابع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم على الخفين

And for Hayya 'la khayril 'amal, as i said, ibn 'Umar used to saw it too sometimes. Here is an example here he said it:

حدثنا أبو أسامة قال نا عبيدالله عن نافع قال كان ابن عمر زاد في أذانه - حي على خير العمل

and here is an example where he didn't:

حدثنا أبو بكر قال نا ابن علية عن أيوب عن نافع عن ابن عمر قال كان أذان ابن عمر - الله أكبر - الله أكبر - الله أكبر - شهدت أن لا إله إلا الله - شهدت أن لا إله إلا الله شهدت أن لا إله إلا الله - ثلاثا شهدت أن محمدا رسول الله شهدت أن محمدا رسول الله - شهدت أن محمدا رسول الله - ثلاثا - حي على الصلاة - ثلاثا - حي على الفلاح - ثلاثا - الله أكبر - أحسبه قال - لا إله إلا الل

From what i have seen, the views of the Imams aren't really out of line with the main body of Muslims. At least not in fiqh, and at least not in the Sunni books or even the Musannaf of ibn Abi Shaybah (i haven't examined the other one yet).

And that didn't really surprise me tbh. i've been attending fiqh lessons from both Sunni and Shia Sheikhs/Scholars for years and i never really saw much difference. i've even heard Sunni scholars give the same explanations for rulings that the Imams gave.

was salam

Edited by lotfilms

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Wa alaykum assalam wa rahmetu Allah wa barekato.

Very interesting stuff there avjar7. JazakAllah khayr for sharing it with us :)

(bismillah)

(salam)

Brother avjar, i think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that this necessairly proves that the Imams were different from everyone else. Afterall, the overwhelming majority of their hadiths in the musannafs are "normal"; they don't really contridict the majority sect.

And even some of the stuff that is seen as "odd" isn't really that odd. For example, there's a disagreement about wiping over the khuffayn in Sunni Islam. And the Shafi'iees allow for the Qunut in certain prayers as well, and ibn 'Umar used to sometimes say "Hayya 'ala khayril 'amal as well.

Even hadiths like "don't forsake the Basmallah" aren't really that strange/unique to be frank.

Edited by Perseverance

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(salam)

And there's many hadiths where al-Baqir asks Jabir ibn Abdullah (ra) about hadiths from the Prophet(pbuh). If he was a dinvely-appointed figure, why is he

always asking Jabir bin Abdullah (ra)?

Heck, al-Baqir even narrates from Abu Hurayrah here:

ÍÏËäÇ ÎáÝ Èä ÎáíÝÉ Úä ÃÈí ãÇáß ÇáÇÔÌÚí Úä ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ Úä ÃÈí åÑíÑÉ ÞÇá ÊÖÇÚÝ ÕáÇÉ ÇáÌãÇÚÉ Úáì ÕáÇÉ ÇáæÍÏÉ ÎãÓÇ æÚÔÑíä ÏÑÌÉ

So al-Baqir, aleyhis salam, narrated from Sahaba. There isn't a problem with this. Perhaps it was sometimes necessary since, according to avjar7, he was the last person who could get away with narrating mursal ahadeeth; so he might have had to narrate ahadeeth from Sahaba sometimes. He _did_ narrate many from his father the Imam too. As for the Abu Hurayra hadeeth, well the man didn't lie all the time; perhaps al-Baqir, aleyhis salam, knew this hadeeth to be true.

The A`immah (as) never actually need to quote another person's hadiths (other than other members of Ahl al-Bayt) as protectors of the Sunnah. Though, I too have seen examples where Amir al-Mu`mineen (as) quotes a companion like Jabir, and this has been explained to me as an effort to get the opposing side to take the meanings of these hadiths. In other words, an Imam can quote a "neutral" figure, for the purpose of getting a point across to the `amma. And considering Muhammed al-Baqir (as) and Ja`far as-Sadiq (as) both dealt with large groups of students, many from the `amma, I don't think this is too strange.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

I don't have much to add. Good thoughts. Just keep studying and gaining knowledge and come to your own conclusions.

i love your insights brother, so please feel free to add anything on your mind :)

'Ali ibn al-Hussein taught that it is the "first adhaan." Ibn Umar's inclusion, at least in some narrations

Alas this is an incredible statement by him(as) indeed

3. The narration about praying behind certain people is also narrated through Haatim ibn Ismaa'eel:

حَدَّثَنَا حَاتِمُ بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ ، عَنْ جَعْفَرٍ ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ ، قَالَ : كَانَ الْحَسَنُ بْنُ عَلِيٍّ وَالْحُسَيْنُ يُصَلِّيَانِ خَلْفَ مَرْوَانَ ، قَالَ : فَقِيلَ لَهُ : أَمَا كَانَ أَبُوكَ يُصَلِّي إِذَا رَجَعَ إِلَى الْبَيْتِ ؟ قَالَ : فَيَقُولُ : " لَا وَاللَّهِ ، مَا كَانُوا يَزِيدُونَ عَلَى صَلَاةِ الْأَئِمَّةِ

Ja'far, from his father who said: Al-Hassan and Al-Hussein prayed behind Marwan. It was said to him: Did they pray when they returned to their house? He said: No, by Allah, they did not add to the prayer of the imaams.

Some points to note: The use of the word a'immah. Taqiyyah. Shias praying behind non-Shias if they recite to themselves, etc.

Actually, i quoted that hadith because it was strange to see Abu Hamza al-Thumali contradicting the Imam like that.

As for your conclusion of taqiyyah, i thought the same thing as well, but then i began to wonder. i can understand using taqiyyah to save your own life. But how can you use taqiyyah for religious teachings and purposely give people wrong information in the hopes that those people will get the right information later on?

Did the Prophet (pbuh) ever purposefully give people the wrong information? Rather, when we examine the Prophet (pbuh)'s life, we see that he tried to keep things secret when he could, but he appears to have always been upfront with Islamic knowledge when needed.

When the Prophet (pbuh) do taqiyyah to save his life? When 'Ammar (ra) did taqiyyah, it didn't put a dent in a religion. However, if you have a person who is God's representative on earth doing taqiyyah, it creates confusion. And before someone says "Look at the hard times the Imams were living under", i advise them to read the Prophet's (pbuh) sirah. i know Shias generally don't pay much attention to the Prophet(pbuh), but i'll just say that Karbala was 10 days. The Prophet's(pbuh) torture was 10 years.

Which is more probable? That al-Sadiq(as) taught people falsehood in public and taught the real Islamic knowledge to his select Shia? Or that a small group of people made stuff up and said that the Imam was doing taqiyyah in public and that the Companions apostated and that the Book of Allah is corrupted in order to push their agenda?

One final thing about using taqiyyah in religious teachings, doesn't the Quran say:

ولا تلبسوا الحق بالباطل وتكتموا الحق وانتم تعلمون

ان الذين يكتمون ما انزلنا من البينات والهدى من بعد ما بيناه للناس في الكتاب اولئك يلعنهم الله ويلعنهم اللاعنون

ان الذين يكتمون ما انزل الله من الكتاب ويشترون به ثمنا قليلا اولئك ما ياكلون في بطونهم الا النار ولا يكلمهم الله يوم القيامة ولا يزكيهم ولهم عذاب اليم

4. Not all "Abi Ja'far's" in the Musannaf are Abu Ja'far al-Baqir.

This is true. i would have to investigate that particular narration more closely. My apologies.

Did he have any students to whom he imparted his teachings? Or is what he taught, despite these brief glimmers of uniqueness, only preserved in the Musannafs?

That's the thing. Most of their students are what we today would call "Sunnis". Malik ibn Anas used to revere al-Sadiq and got a number of narrations directly from him. Did al-Sadiq teach him Imamate as well?

6. Muhammad al-Baqir was not an imaam when Jabir ibn 'AbdAllah was alive.

True, i suppose you can explain it this way

Personally, I have always been skeptical of much of what is reported in the Musannafs, and other Sunni books, on the authority of Imaam 'Ali. However, I do not view it as a problem because I believe his fiqh has been preserved and taught by his family.

There was much controversy surrounding Imaam 'Ali in early Islam. Theological and political controversies, people like Mu'awiyah who sought to oppose him by changing the sunnah he practiced, etc. Due to these contentions, I have always found it hard to trace Imaam Ali's views through a reliable isnaad, as many people tried to attribute views to him that perhaps he did not hold. Thus, I always saw relying on Imaam al-Baqir and Imaam al-Saadiq as sort of a back-door way by which to know Imaam 'Ali's views, which cuts down on what I believe to be falsification of many traditions attributed to him.

Yea, i took the same route. In my own research, ive been focusing mostly on Ali bin al-Husayn(as), Muhammad bin Ali(as), and Ja'far bin Muhammad(as)

‎حدثنا ابن علية عن ابن عون عن ابن سيرين أنه سئل عن الرجل يمسك يمينه بشماله قال : إنما فعل ذلك من أجل الدم

Muhammad ibn Seereen was asked about the man who holds his right (hand) with his left. He said: That is only done for the blood.

This is in the chapter about praying with one's hands at the sides (من كان يرسل يديه في الصلاة). Ibn Seereen says that putting one hand on the other can be done due to the blood--meaning, perhaps, if one prays with their arms at their sides and they become numb due to long recitation, that one can join their hands to increase blood flow until the numbness goes away.

This is very interesting coming Ibn Seereen, as he met sahaba such as Abu Hurayra, Ibn 'Abbas, and Ibn 'Umar. It is specifically mentioned in other narrations that he either prayed behind these people, or saw them pray. If it was the normal action of these sahaba to fold their hands as a standard routine in prayer, Ibn Seereen would not have said that folding the hands is a concession if they become numb. This narration from Ibn Seereen, if I'm understanding it correctly, proves that holding the hands at the sides during prayer was practiced by the sahaba.

See, that's the thing. As i said, in the section of folding hands, it has many narrations from the Prophet(pbuh). But in the section of sadl, it's just views of tabi'is; nothing quoting the Prophet(pbuh), or claiming to be from the Prophet(pbuh)

So whether this was his fatwa based on his situation of that time, or if it was a fatwa with actual roots in the Sunnah, we can't really be sure.

And wasn't the Sahbi Talha one of those who were known for keeping his arms down?

i'm fully open to the possibility that the Imams were the best source of the Sunnah. But this opens another question: What exactly is the best source for the Imams?

was salam

Edited by lotfilms

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(wasalam)

Also, Hafs ibn Ghayath mentions that he "heard" Imaam Ja`far say this. This fatwa was not narrated to him in a formal manner. "To hear," in hadith science indicates that it was literally something the narrator heard in the presence of someone--there was no formal mode of narration and transmission of learning taking place here, which would be indicated with "so-and-so narrated to us," or, "transmitted to us." It could be that Hafs ibn Ghayath overheard Imaam Ja`far speaking with his Shia, and hence explain both the fact that it is one of the only fatwas Imaam Ja`far narrates--as he seems to have not passed fatwas publicly--and the use of "we."

I was thinking about this earlier today; whether he heard it straight from as-Sadiq (as) or from one of his followers. Thanks for clarifying.

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