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Mwar

Accurate Salaat For Shi'a ?

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Having learned Shi'a Salaat primarily from this book, I am hoping if someone can please clarify a few problems I've been encountering.

Method%20od%20Salat.jpg

Firstly, my sister (Sunni) saw me ending my Salaat without moving my head towards the right and left while saying my Salaam. She was surprised by this, and informed me that her Iraqi Shi'a friend, and all Arab Shi'as always end their prayer by moving their head towards the right and left. I believe this act of ending the prayer is called Taslim, and I read specifically through a few posts of brothers macisaac and Nader Zaveri that it is a required act for us Shi'as to end our prayer (Please correct me if I'm wrong...I am aware there are differences between Sunni and Shi'a Taslim, although further elaboration would be GREATLY appreciated). Secondly my sister informed me that a Khoja Shi'a colleague of hers said that moving one's head right and left is not part of Shi'a Salaat, and that this is not done at her Masjid. The book itself did not mention anything in regards to moving one's head right and left...and it is Persian :wacko: As such I am quite confused, and have only recently learned how to pray Salaat through Shi'a methodology, and am eager to pray as the Prophet (pbuh) and Ahl al-Bayt (as) have done.

Can someone please clarify? The book does mention however that, "it is better to recite the Takbir three times, and each time, we should raise our hands so that they are parallel to our ears", and I am sure that this must be Mustahabb and not Wajib.

Regardless, if anyone can please provide me with an accurate description of Shi'a Salaat, and correct any errors in this book if it is available to them, then it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

(wasalam)

Edited by Mwar

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(salam)

(bismillah)

May Allaah (SWT) reward you for attempting and trying your hardest to pray exactly as the Imaams have taught us. Aameen.

MacIsaac and I have discussed this many times about the three takbeers, how it doesn't in any way "end" your salaah, it isn't waajib nor is it mustahab. Whoever think that this three takbeers somehow "ends" your salaah, you are introducing a bid`ah and you must refrain from it, immediately. I have actually written out a lengthy blog post regarding this issue, inshaa'Allaah if you read it, it'll clear up any misconceptions about this three takbeer thing and also what actions you can perform to "end" your salaah. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask them here or send me a PM.

Here is the blog post:

http://revivingalislaam.blogspot.com/2010/07/three-takbeers-to-end-your-salaah-bidah.html

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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(bismillah)

You end your salaah by saying "asalaamu`alayna wa `ala `ibaadillahis-Saaliheen" and/or "As-salamu`alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh"

Then your salaat is done.

It is mustahab that after you are done with your salaah, you raise your hand thrice with three takbiraat. This is immediately done after your salaat ends which makes people think it is what ends your salaah but it doesn't. The tasleem does. This is part of the after salaah `amaal.

(wasalam)

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(salam)

(bismillah)

It is mustahab that after you are done with your salaah, you raise your hand thrice with three takbiraat. This is immediately done after your salaat ends which makes people think it is what ends your salaah but it doesn't. The tasleem does. This is part of the after salaah `amaal.

Even that hadeeth is really da`eef (weak). I know it is mustahab, but the number of weak narrators in the chain is really bad. Also, the hadeeth doesn't say raise it 3 times. The hadeeth says "raise your hands" then say takbeer three times. And you raise your hands ABOVE your heads. People have unfortunately misinterpreted this hadeeth big time.

(salam)

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(bismillah)

You end your salaah by saying "asalaamu`alayna wa `ala `ibaadillahis-Saaliheen" and/or "As-salamu`alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh"

Then your salaat is done.

It is mustahab that after you are done with your salaah, you raise your hand thrice with three takbiraat. This is immediately done after your salaat ends which makes people think it is what ends your salaah but it doesn't. The tasleem does. This is part of the after salaah `amaal.

(wasalam)

(bismillah)

(salam)

Brother Nader's post on his blog is very informative on this subject. May Allaah (SWT) give him tawfeeq to make more posts like this inshaaAllaah in the future. Aameen.

Nader does a good job analyzing that it is not three times putting it above your head. It is actually putting your hands above your head and, then, saying takbeer three times, but this hadeeth is da'eef.

The one that is SaHeeH (according to Majlisee and his father) is the one that says raising the hands above your head after Salaah. Now that doesn't discuss anything about takbeeraat.

(salam)

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Even that hadeeth is really da`eef (weak). I know it is mustahab, but the number of weak narrators in the chain is really bad. Also, the hadeeth doesn't say raise it 3 times. The hadeeth says "raise your hands" then say takbeer three times. And you raise your hands ABOVE your heads. People have unfortunately misinterpreted this hadeeth big time.

(salam)

(salam)

Hey Nader, are you referring to this narration:

[chain] ... by the way of Mufadhdhal bin Omar, who said: "I asked Abi Abdullah [Jaafar al-Sadiq](s): For what reason does the one who prays say takbir, rasing his hands three times, after the salam? He said: Because the Prophet (s) when he opened Mecca [conquest of Mecca], he prayed with his companions the noon prayer at the Black Stone [Hajarul Aswad]. When he said the Salam he raised his hands and did takbir three times; and said: La ilaha illa Allah wahdahu wahdah, anjaza wa'dah, wa nasara 'abdah, wa a'azza jundah, wa ghalaba al-ahzaba wahdah. Fa lahul mulk wa lahul hamd, yuhyi wa yumeet wa huwa 'ala kulli shay-in qadeer. Then he went towards his companions and said: Don't abandon this takbir and this saying after each written prayer, because whoever does this after the Salam and says this saying has delivered what is required of him from the thanks to Almighty Allah for strengthening Islam and its army."

-Al-Hurr al-'Amili, "Wasael al-Shi'a", v6, p452, #8420

- Sheikh al-Sadouq, "Ilal al-Sharae'", p360, Sec78.

Wa'Salam!

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(salam)

(bismillah)

May Allaah (SWT) reward you for attempting and trying your hardest to pray exactly as the Imaams have taught us. Aameen.

MacIsaac and I have discussed this many times about the three takbeers, how it doesn't in any way "end" your salaah, it isn't waajib nor is it mustahab. Whoever think that this three takbeers somehow "ends" your salaah, you are introducing a bid`ah and you must refrain from it, immediately. I have actually written out a lengthy blog post regarding this issue, inshaa'Allaah if you read it, it'll clear up any misconceptions about this three takbeer thing and also what actions you can perform to "end" your salaah. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask them here or send me a PM.

Here is the blog post:

http://revivingalislaam.blogspot.com/2010/07/three-takbeers-to-end-your-salaah-bidah.html

(salam)

(bismillah)

(salam)

Thank you for your kind Du'a. May Allah (SWT) increase your knowledge, strengthen you in spreading it to the unaware, and reward you for your efforts. Aameen.

I think it is abundantly clear then that the three takbeers do not end your Salaat. I read your article and it proved very informative. Especially this portion in particular.

From this hadeeth, you can see that you do two tasleems if you are in a row and one if you are an Imaam or reading alone. Now, when you do your tasleem, DO NOT move your head SO MUCH to the right and to the left as if you are looking over your shoulder, but you slightly move it to the right and to the left. (NOTE: You are always doing tasleem to the right unless you are the leader of the prayer then you do tasleem forward)

It seems that my sister was indeed correct in observing her friend doing tasleem towards both her right and left shoulder in Jama'ah, although while praying individually at home I should do so only once and towards my right. Although the book I pointed out made no mention of moving one's head, and her Khoja Shi'a colleague was incorrect.....

Although a clarification if it is no trouble brother Zaveri. In the Hadeeth you quoted in your article....

Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn by his isnad from Safwan b. Mihran the camel driver. He said: I saw Aboo `Abdillaah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã when he prayed and ended his salaah (that he would) raise his hands above his head.

.....what is it that we are supposed to recite if anything when we raise our hands? I saw this Hadeeth graded as SaHeeh although the later Hadeeth mentioning the three takbeer was Da`eef Jiddan in its grading. If you could clarify please. May Allah (SWT) reward you for your research and efforts.

(wasalam)

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(bismillah)

it is mustahab to "strike the throat" when one does a takbir.

Also, I think you two know my opinion on isnaad on things that are not the fardh and haraam.

Perhaps you may be correct in this matter, I shall inquire upon this further with others later =]

(wasalam)

Edited by Dar'ul_Islam

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(salam)

(bismillah)

.....what is it that we are supposed to recite if anything when we raise our hands? I saw this Hadeeth graded as SaHeeh although the later Hadeeth mentioning the three takbeer was Da`eef Jiddan in its grading. If you could clarify please. May Allah (SWT) reward you for your research and efforts.

Yeah, unfortunately I think people who are shee`ah try their hardest not to be like the Sunnees, so they try to insert things and delete things just because the Sunnees do them, when in turn they are taking away a sunnah.

Now when you finish your salaah, you can raise your hand above your head and recite a du`aa, as we have some du`aa passed down from the Ahl Al-Bayt to recite du`aa with your hands raised after the end of your salaah.

it is mustahab to "strike the throat" when one does a takbir.

Also, I think you two know my opinion on isnaad on things that are not the fardh and haraam.

Perhaps you may be correct in this matter, I shall inquire upon this further with others later =]

WHOA Brother! Careful with your Qiyaas! If you notice those hadeeth about raising your hand for every takbeer, within the hadeeth it deals with "while you are in salaah". Now, even you admitted that once you do tasleem, your salaah is done. Hence, this rule will not apply, and if people are doing this because of the "raising your hands with every takbeer" they are doing Qiyaas, and should desist.

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Yeah, unfortunately I think people who are shee`ah try their hardest not to be like the Sunnees, so they try to insert things and delete things just because the Sunnees do them, when in turn they are taking away a sunnah.

Now when you finish your salaah, you can raise your hand above your head and recite a du`aa, as we have some du`aa passed down from the Ahl Al-Bayt to recite du`aa with your hands raised after the end of your salaah.

(salam)

(bismillah)

(salam)

I agree, her colleague did seem quite anti-Sunni when my sister was mentioning her, lol. I will search for the appropriate Du'aas, thank you.

(wasalam)

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Can someone tell me whether or not it is wajib to say "Assalamu ‘alayka ayyuhan Nabiyyu wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh" in the taslim? I always just assumed it was, but then I saw Sayed Khomeini praying in the following video, and he seems to skip that sentence, and doesn't say "Assalamu ‘alayna wa ‘ala ‘ibadil lahis salihin" either.

I don't have any plans to stop saying myself of course, but I would like to know just for information.

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(salam)

wow.. I'm so confused by reading this thread..

1) We don't turn our heads left to right during the salaam part.

2) We normally say 3 salaams, but only the last one is necessary.

3) We normally say 3 takbir afterwards - it seems everything is a bid'ah to nader..

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WHOA Brother! Careful with your Qiyaas! If you notice those hadeeth about raising your hand for every takbeer, within the hadeeth it deals with "while you are in salaah". Now, even you admitted that once you do tasleem, your salaah is done. Hence, this rule will not apply, and if people are doing this because of the "raising your hands with every takbeer" they are doing Qiyaas, and should desist.

(salam)

(bismillah)

(wasalam)

bro chill out. You're acting like Dar'ul_Islam is some well known qiyas-er and bid'ah starter. He's not sunni anymore, remember? ;)

(salam)

wow.. I'm so confused by reading this thread..

1) We don't turn our heads left to right during the salaam part.

2) We normally say 3 salaams, but only the last one is necessary.

3) We normally say 3 takbir afterwards - it seems everything is a bid'ah to nader..

(bismillah)

As we can see so nicely translated and set out for us on tashayyu (mashaa Allaah):

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/salat/taslim

ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÓÚíÏ¡ Úä ÕÝæÇä¡ Úä ãäÕæÑ ÞÇá: ÞÇá ÃÈæ ÚÈÏ Çááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: ÇáÇãÇã íÓáã æÇÍÏÉ æãä æÑÇå íÓáã ÇËäÊíä ÝÅä áã íßä Úä ÔãÇáå ÃÍÏ Óáã æÇÍÏÉ

Al-Husayn b. Sa`id from Safwan from Mansur. He said: Abu `Abdillah (as) said: The imam does taslim once and whoso is behind him does taslim twice. So if there is there no one to his left, he does taslim once. (sahih)

ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÓÚíÏ¡ Úä ÇÈä ÃÈí ÚãíÑ¡ Úä ÚãÑ Èä ÃÐíäÉ¡ Úä ÒÑÇÑÉ æãÍãÏ Èä ãÓáã¡ æãÚãÑ Èä íÍíì¡ æÅÓãÇÚíá¡ Úä ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ÞÇá: íÓáã ÊÓáíãÉ æÇÍÏÉ ÅãÇãÇ ßÇä Ãæ ÛíÑå

Al-Husayn b. Sa`id from Ibn Abi `Umayr from `Umar b. Udhayna from Zurara and Muhammad b. Muslim and Mu`ammar from Yahya and Isma`il from Abu Ja`far (as). He said: He does taslim with a single taslima whether he is an imam or other than him. (sahih)

(Shaykh Tusi explains this latter for the follower to be meaning if there is no-one to your left, as mentioned above)

ãÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ÇÈä ÃÈí äÕÑ¡ Úä ËÚáÈÉ ÇÈä ãíãæä¡ Úä ãíÓÑ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ÞÇá: ÔíÆÇä íÝÓÏ ÇáäÇÓ ÈåãÇ ÕáÇÊåã: Þæá ÇáÑÌá: (ÊÈÇÑß ÇÓãß æÊÚÇáì ÌÏß æáÇ Åáå ÛíÑß) æÅäãÇ åæ ÔÆ ÞÇáÊå ÇáÌä ÈÌåÇáÉ ÝÍßì Çááå Úäåã¡ æÞæá ÇáÑÌá: (ÇáÓáÇã ÚáíäÇ æÚáì ÚÈÇÏ Çááå ÇáÕÇáÍíä(

Ahmad b. Muhammad from Ibn Abi Nasr from Tha`laba b. Maymun from Maysir from Abu Ja`far (as). He said: Two things that the people ruin their salat with: the man’s saying “tabaraka ismuka wa ta`ala jadduka wa la ilaha ghayruka” and it is only something that the jinn said in ignorance so Allah related it from them, and the saying of a man “as-salam `alayna wa `ala `ibadillahi ‘s-saliheen.” (hasan)

(That is, saying that taslim, as Sunnis do, prior to its place. They say it before the tashahhud.)

From al-Kafi:

ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÓÚíÏ¡ Úä ÝÖÇáÉ Èä ÃíæÈ Úä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÚËãÇä¡ Úä ÇÈä ãÓßÇä¡ Úä ÇáÍáÈí ÞÇá: ÞÇá áí ÃÈæÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã(

ßáãÇ ÐßÑÊ Çááå Èå æÇáäÈí (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå) Ýåæ ãä ÇáÕáÇÉ æÅä ÞáÊ: ÇáÓáÇã ÚáíäÇ æÚáì ÚÈÇÏ Çááå ÇáÕÇáÍíä ÝÞÏ ÇäÕÑÝÊ.

Muhammad b. Yahya from Ahmad b. Muhammad from al-Husayn b. Sa`id from Faddala b. Ayyub from al-Husayn b. `Uthman from Ibn Miskan from al-Halbi. He said: Abu `Abdillah (as) said to me: Whenever you mention (or, remember) Allah by it and the Prophet (pbuh), then it is from salat. And if you say “as-salam `alayna wa `ala `ibadillahi s-saliheen” then you have departed (i.e. you’ve completed your salat). (sahih)

ÈåÐÇ ÇáÇÓäÇÏ¡ Úä ÇÈä ãÓßÇä¡ Úä ÃÈí ÈÕíÑ ÞÇá: ÞÇá ÃÈæÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã(

ÅÐÇ ßäÊ Ýí ÕÝ ÝÓáã ÊÓáíãÉ Úä íãíäß æÊÓáíãÉ Úä íÓÇÑß áÇä Úä íÓÇÑß ãä íÓáã Úáíß æÅÐÇ ßäÊ ÅãÇãÇ ÝÓáã ÊÓáíãÉ æÃäÊ ãÓÊÞÈá ÇáÞÈáÉ.

With this isnad from Ibn Miskan from Abu Basir. He said: Abu `Abdillah (as) said: If you are in a row, then do a taslim from to your right and a taslim to your left, for to your left is someone who is doing taslim upon you. And if you are an imam, then do a taslim while you are facing qibla. (sahih)

From the Mu`tabar of Ja`far b. al-Hasan al-Muhaqqiq transmitting from Jami` al-Bazanti:

Úä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÃÈí íÚÝæÑ ÞÇá : ÓÃáÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏ Çááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) Úä ÊÓáíã ÇáÅãÇã æåæ ãÓÊÞÈá ÇáÞÈáÉ ¿ ÞÇá : íÞæá : ÇáÓáÇã Úáíßã

From `Abdullah b. Abi Ya`fur. He said: I asked Abu `Abdillah (as) about the taslim of the imam and he is facing the qibla? He said: He says “as-salam `alaykum.”

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بهذا الاسناد، عن ابن مسكان، عن أبي بصير قال: قال أبوعبدالله (عليه السلام(

إذا كنت في صف فسلم تسليمة عن يمينك وتسليمة عن يسارك لان عن يسارك من يسلم عليك وإذا كنت إماما فسلم تسليمة وأنت مستقبل القبلة.

With this isnad from Ibn Miskan from Abu Basir. He said: Abu `Abdillah (as) said: If you are in a row, then do a taslim from to your right and a taslim to your left, for to your left is someone who is doing taslim upon you. And if you are an imam, then do a taslim while you are facing qibla. (sahih)

having prayed in mosques in canada / us / uk / iran / iraq / syria .. i have yet to see this being done... and isn't there a rule that if you turn your face from the qiblah your salat is batil?..

about the 3 salaam bit, I follow sistani, not some self-proclaimed hadith experts: http://www.sistani.org/local.php?modules=extra&eid=3&aid=40

Edited by Fuan

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(salam)

(bismillah)

Even that hadeeth is really da`eef (weak). I know it is mustahab, but the number of weak narrators in the chain is really bad. Also, the hadeeth doesn't say raise it 3 times. The hadeeth says "raise your hands" then say takbeer three times. And you raise your hands ABOVE your heads. People have unfortunately misinterpreted this hadeeth big time.

(salam)

(bismillah) (salam)

In the video of Ayatollah Khomeini he raises his hands 3 times at the end. In my opinion Ayatollah Khomeini (ra) was very knowledgeable so I have a hard time believing that he could make such a mistake in his Salat. By no means am I trying to criticize your research, I am just curious.

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Can someone tell me whether or not it is wajib to say "Assalamu ‘alayka ayyuhan Nabiyyu wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh" in the taslim? I always just assumed it was, but then I saw Sayed Khomeini praying in the following video, and he seems to skip that sentence, and doesn't say "Assalamu ‘alayna wa ‘ala ‘ibadil lahis salihin" either.

I don't have any plans to stop saying myself of course, but I would like to know just for information.

It is mustahabb to say, but unlike the last two is not actually counted as a taslim that ends the salat. In fact, it is also mustahabb to say even more salams apart from that one. From the hadith of Abu Basir from Imam Sadiq (as):

السلام عليك أيها النبي ورحمة الله وبركاته السلام على انبياء الله ورسله السلام على جبرئيل وميكائيل والملائكة المقربين السلام على محمد بن عبد الله خاتم النبيين لا نبي بعده والسلام علينا وعلى عباد الله الصالحين

Peace be upon you O Prophet and the mercy of Allah and his blessings, Peace be upon the prophets of Allah and His messengers, Peace be upon Jibra’il and Mika’il and the angels brought near, Peace be upon Muhammad ibn `Abdullah, the seal of the prophets, there is no prophet after him, and peace be upon us and upon the servants of Allah, the righteous ones.

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/salat/tashahhud/method-of-tashahhud

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Can someone tell me whether or not it is wajib to say "Assalamu ‘alayka ayyuhan Nabiyyu wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh" in the taslim? I always just assumed it was, but then I saw Sayed Khomeini praying in the following video, and he seems to skip that sentence, and doesn't say "Assalamu ‘alayna wa ‘ala ‘ibadil lahis salihin" either.

I don't have any plans to stop saying myself of course, but I would like to know just for information.

(bismillah)

(salam)

@Fuan

I think if you watch the video very closely at about 6:27-6:30, despite the video being blurry it's quite clear that Ayatollah Khomeini moves his head slightly towards the right.

Also, just to be fair, I don't think Nader Zaveri claimed that the three takbeers is definitely Bid'ah, but to believe that the three takbeer end your prayers is definitely Bid'ah. And that the practise itself right after Salaat (according to his cited Hadeeth) does not seem to have a solid backing.

(wasalam)

Edited by Mwar

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having prayed in mosques in canada / us / uk / iran / iraq / syria .. i have yet to see this being done... and isn't there a rule that if you turn your face from the qiblah your salat is batil?..

about the 3 salaam bit, I follow sistani, not some self-proclaimed hadith experts: http://www.sistani.org/local.php?modules=extra&eid=3&aid=40

(bismillah)

I, nor the translator of the ahadeeth I posted (macisaac), make any such claims to being "hadith experts." All he did was translate them so that we could read the ahadeeth and then I posted them here so that you could understand why everyone was making certain claims on this thread.

Just because the scholars don't do something or talk about something doesn't make it completely valid in Islaam. There's the ahadeeth right there, no one made them up. That's straight from the Imam. I certainly hope the words of the Imams and rasulullaah are more important to you than any scholar (with all due respect to Sayed Sistani).

btw, you're only suppose to slightly turn the face, not all crazy exaggerated like the sunnis do, so you'd still be facing the qiblah.

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Can someone tell me whether or not it is wajib to say "Assalamu ‘alayka ayyuhan Nabiyyu wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh" in the taslim? I always just assumed it was, but then I saw Sayed Khomeini praying in the following video, and he seems to skip that sentence, and doesn't say "Assalamu ‘alayna wa ‘ala ‘ibadil lahis salihin" either.

I don't have any plans to stop saying myself of course, but I would like to know just for information.

"Assalamu ‘alayka ayyuhan Nabiyyu wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh" is a Mustahab addition to the Tashahud not Taslim.

As for the Taslim if one says "Assalamu ‘alayna wa ‘ala ‘ibadil lahis salihin" it is enough and he has left the Salat -

but to add after it "Assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu" is a Mustahab addition to to the former clause and also one can recite only "Assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu" without reciting "Assalamu ‘alayna wa ‘ala ‘ibadil lahis salihin" and that will be a complete Taslim as the mojority opinion of scholars is that you have Takhyir between the two clauses.

In other words there are two main clauses to Taslim

(1)"Assalamu ‘alayna wa ‘ala ‘ibadil lahis salihin" and (2)"Assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu"

if one recites (1) he has left the salat and it is mustahab to recite (2)

if one recites (2) straight without (1) he has also left the salat (obviously he can't recite (1) after reciting (2) first)

Edited by Islamic Salvation

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(bismillah)

I, nor the translator of the ahadeeth I posted (macisaac), make any such claims to being "hadith experts." All he did was translate them so that we could read the ahadeeth and then I posted them here so that you could understand why everyone was making certain claims on this thread.

Just because the scholars don't do something or talk about something doesn't make it completely valid in Islaam. There's the ahadeeth right there, no one made them up. That's straight from the Imam. I certainly hope the words of the Imams and rasulullaah are more important to you than any scholar (with all due respect to Sayed Sistani).

btw, you're only suppose to slightly turn the face, not all crazy exaggerated like the sunnis do, so you'd still be facing the qiblah.

(salam)

Well, what bothered me is that things like this have probably been well-analysed and debated by the scholars, and there is probably good reason behind what they have written in their risalah. I'm not saying its perfect, but to discredit them based on a few hadith that you believe are reliable is not enough either - especially when its someone who is trying to learn the basic method of wajibaat. If the OP was asking these things out of curiosity I wouldn't care.. and if you want to do it for yourself thats fine.. but you shouldn't be preaching these things like it was the basic way we do things.

@Mwar - I believe it's better if you choose a mujtahid that you can refer to for these matters before you start following someone else's version of religion.

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(salam)

I would like to WARN people from listening to these self proclaimed experts on Islam. For example, Nader Zaveri and those who supposedly praise him (could be himself with multiple accounts or a group of people with an organized plan).

We do not move our heads during prayers like the sunnis do. During the last rakat, when you are in your sitting position, the very last thing you do, is say:

Ash-hadu Alla Ilaha Illa Allah

Wahdaho La Shareeka Laho

Wa Ash-Hadu Anna Muhammadan ‘Abdoho wa Rasooloh

Allahumma Sally ‘Ala Muhammadin wa Aaly Muhammad

Assalamu Alaika Ayyuhan-Nabiyyo Wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh

Assalamu Alaina wa ‘Ala Ibadillahes-Saleheen

Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahe wa Barakatuh

After this, you raise your hands up until your ears and say Allah akbar, you do this trice.

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(salam)

I would like to WARN people from listening to these self proclaimed experts on Islam. For example, Nader Zaveri and those who supposedly praise him (could be himself with multiple accounts or a group of people with an organized plan).

We do not move our heads during prayers like the sunnis do.

(wasalam)

Who said we're advocating what the Sunnis do? But if you mean we don't do any directing of our face at all, would Sayyid Sistani be someone you warn against? From the `Urwat al-Wuthqa with his footnotes in it:

[ 1666 ] مسألة 6 : يستحب للمنفرد والإمام الايماء بالتسليم الاخير إلى يمينه بمؤخر عينه أو بأنفه أو غيرهما على وجه لا ينافي الاستقبال ، وأما المأموم فإن لم يكن على يساره أحد فكذلك ، وإن كان على يساره بعض المأمومين فيأتي بتسليمة اخرى مومئا إلى يساره ، ويحتمل استحباب تسليم آخر للمأموم بقصد الإمام فيكون ثلاث مرات.

It is recommended for the (person praying) alone and the imam to signal with the final taslim to his right with the back of his eye or his nose or other than that in a manner that does not negate facing the qibla. As to the follower, if there is no one to his left then it is likewise. And if there is someone from the followers to his left, then he brings another taslim directed to his left. And it the desirability of another taslim for the follower intending the imam is supportable, thus it would be three times.

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(salam)

Well, what bothered me is that things like this have probably been well-analysed and debated by the scholars, and there is probably good reason behind what they have written in their risalah. I'm not saying its perfect, but to discredit them based on a few hadith that you believe are reliable is not enough either - especially when its someone who is trying to learn the basic method of wajibaat. If the OP was asking these things out of curiosity I wouldn't care.. and if you want to do it for yourself thats fine.. but you shouldn't be preaching these things like it was the basic way we do things.

@Mwar - I believe it's better if you choose a mujtahid that you can refer to for these matters before you start following someone else's version of religion.

Oh please. Let's not get into another taqleedi debate. We are Muslims. We follow rasulullaah and we follow the Imams who advocated his sunnah. The ahadeeth are there for all of us to see and read for ourselves. You are acting like the scholars speak against the above ahadeeth - if that's the case, please show us. If not, then you need to admit that you don't actually know what the scholars say about them and stop preaching against rasulullaah's sunnah!

New shi'a need to learn these issues about salaah, and there is no reason not to teach them the correct way from the start. Why do are you trying to baby him and act like he's not intelligent enough to understand? Are you a convert to shi'a Islaam? How do you know what he can understand and take in at this stage? I've been there, it's not that difficult so stop trying to exaggerate the situation just because you don't agree.

Also to point out, you're trying to make it seem that just because the majority of a group does something that makes them right. let me remind you of these verses from the Qur'an:

But We will this day deliver you with your body that you may be a sign to those after you, and most surely the majority of the people are heedless to Our communications.

Surah Yunus, Chapter 10, ayah 92

Is he then who has with him clear proof from his Lord, and a witness from Him recites it and before it (is) the Book of Musa, a guide and a mercy? These believe in it; and whoever of the (different) parties disbelieves in it, surely it is the truth from your Lord, but most men do not believe.

Surah Hud Chapter 11, ayah 17

Say: Bring your proof; this is the reminder of those with me and the reminder of those before me. Nay! most of them do not know the truth, so they turn aside.

Surah Al-Anbiya Chapter 21, ayah 24

We did not create them both but with the truth, but most of them do not know.

Surah Ad-Dukhan Chapter 44, ayah 39

Edited by bi_ithnillaah

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For example, Nader Zaveri and those who supposedly praise him (could be himself with multiple accounts or a group of people with an organized plan).

Wow! How did you figure me out so well? How did you know that I log out of this account, then go to another account log in, with a total different IP, and sometimes I go across the country / world to post, just so I can praise myself, and make myself feel good.

We do not move our heads during prayers like the sunnis do.

This statement pretty much sums up what I said before. People are so keen on being "different" that they don't realize they are removing the Sunnahs of the prayer.

Yeah, unfortunately I think people who are shee`ah try their hardest not to be like the Sunnees, so they try to insert things and delete things just because the Sunnees do them, when in turn they are taking away a sunnah.

Who said we're advocating what the Sunnis do? But if you mean we don't do any directing of our face at all, would Sayyid Sistani be someone you warn against? From the `Urwat al-Wuthqa with his footnotes in it:

[ 1666 ] مسألة 6 : يستحب للمنفرد والإمام الايماء بالتسليم الاخير إلى يمينه بمؤخر عينه أو بأنفه أو غيرهما على وجه لا ينافي الاستقبال ، وأما المأموم فإن لم يكن على يساره أحد فكذلك ، وإن كان على يساره بعض المأمومين فيأتي بتسليمة اخرى مومئا إلى يساره ، ويحتمل استحباب تسليم آخر للمأموم بقصد الإمام فيكون ثلاث مرات.

It is recommended for the (person praying) alone and the imam to signal with the final taslim to his right with the back of his eye or his nose or other than that in a manner that does not negate facing the qibla. As to the follower, if there is no one to his left then it is likewise. And if there is someone from the followers to his left, then he brings another taslim directed to his left. And it the desirability of another taslim for the follower intending the imam is supportable, thus it would be three times.

Hmm, I thought if you were the "Imaam" (Leader) of the prayer you do tasleem towards the qiblah / forward.

7 وَ بِهَذَا الْإِسْنَادِ عَنِ ابْنِ مُسْكَانَ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ قَالَ قَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع إِذَا كُنْتَ فِي صَفٍّ فَسَلِّمْ تَسْلِيمَةً عَنْ يَمِينِكَ وَ تَسْلِيمَةً عَنْ يَسَارِكَ لِأَنَّ عَنْ يَسَارِكَ مَنْ يُسَلِّمُ عَلَيْكَ وَ إِذَا كُنْتَ إِمَاماً فَسَلِّمْ تَسْلِيمَةً وَ أَنْتَ مُسْتَقْبِلُ الْقِبْلَةِ

"And if you are the Imaam, do a tasleem while you are facing the qiblah"

  • Source:
  • Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 3, pg. 338, hadeeth # 7
    Grading:
  • Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH
    --> Mir'aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 15, pg. 163

I was just wondering. Since tasleem ends your salaah, and your salaah is complete, the rule about "not turning away from the qiblah", that rule wouldn't apply to this then, right? Since in essence your salaah is complete already. From the other hadeeth it says to say salaam to the person to the right and to the left, and in order to say salaam to them, wouldn't you have to turn your head just a little atleast?

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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Wow! How did you figure me out so well? How did you know that I log out of this account, then go to another account log in, with a total different IP, and sometimes I go across the country / world to post, just so I can praise myself, and make myself feel good.

This statement pretty much sums up what I said before. People are so keen on being "different" that they don't realize they are removing the Sunnahs of the prayer.

Hmm, I thought if you were the "Imaam" (Leader) of the prayer you do tasleem towards the qiblah / forward.

7 وَ بِهَذَا الْإِسْنَادِ عَنِ ابْنِ مُسْكَانَ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ قَالَ قَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع إِذَا كُنْتَ فِي صَفٍّ فَسَلِّمْ تَسْلِيمَةً عَنْ يَمِينِكَ وَ تَسْلِيمَةً عَنْ يَسَارِكَ لِأَنَّ عَنْ يَسَارِكَ مَنْ يُسَلِّمُ عَلَيْكَ وَ إِذَا كُنْتَ إِمَاماً فَسَلِّمْ تَسْلِيمَةً وَ أَنْتَ مُسْتَقْبِلُ الْقِبْلَةِ

"And if you are the Imaam, do a tasleem while you are facing the qiblah"

  • Source:
  • Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 3, pg. 338, hadeeth # 7
    Grading:
  • Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH
    --> Mir'aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 15, pg. 163

I was just wondering. Since tasleem ends your salaah, and your salaah is complete, the rule about "not turning away from the qiblah", that rule wouldn't apply to this then, right? Since in essence your salaah is complete already. From the other hadeeth it says to say salaam to the person to the right and to the left, and in order to say salaam to them, wouldn't you have to turn your head just a little atleast?

(salam)

You know the same thing crossed my mind when I read the hadith.

Once tasleem is done your salat is officially done it won't even apply here. Unless there is another hadith that supports this with more detail.

Edited by zzaveri

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If you turn your head too much before actually saying, or while saying, the taslim, then you'll not be facing qibla prior to the salat being complete. (That's if we go with the view though that the taslim in fact is part of the salat and that it closes it. There's actually some decent argument that it isn't, but rather it's mustahabb to do. Tusi held this view apparently.)

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(salam)

(bismillah)

If you turn your head too much before actually saying, or while saying, the taslim, then you'll not be facing qibla prior to the salat being complete. (That's if we go with the view though that the taslim in fact is part of the salat and that it closes it. There's actually some decent argument that it isn't, but rather it's mustahabb to do. Tusi held this view apparently.)

Hmm that is interesting. Did Al-Toosi talk about this in his Al-MabsooT? I need to read up on Al-Toosi's opinion, and how he derived this.

(salam)

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It is mustahabb to say, but unlike the last two is not actually counted as a taslim that ends the salat. In fact, it is also mustahabb to say even more salams apart from that one. From the hadith of Abu Basir from Imam Sadiq (as):

ÇáÓáÇã Úáíß ÃíåÇ ÇáäÈí æÑÍãÉ Çááå æÈÑßÇÊå ÇáÓáÇã Úáì ÇäÈíÇÁ Çááå æÑÓáå ÇáÓáÇã Úáì ÌÈÑÆíá æãíßÇÆíá æÇáãáÇÆßÉ ÇáãÞÑÈíä ÇáÓáÇã Úáì ãÍãÏ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå ÎÇÊã ÇáäÈííä áÇ äÈí ÈÚÏå æÇáÓáÇã ÚáíäÇ æÚáì ÚÈÇÏ Çááå ÇáÕÇáÍíä

Peace be upon you O Prophet and the mercy of Allah and his blessings, Peace be upon the prophets of Allah and His messengers, Peace be upon Jibra’il and Mika’il and the angels brought near, Peace be upon Muhammad ibn `Abdullah, the seal of the prophets, there is no prophet after him, and peace be upon us and upon the servants of Allah, the righteous ones.

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/salat/extended-tashahhud

"Assalamu ‘alayka ayyuhan Nabiyyu wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh" is a Mustahab addition to the Tashahud not Taslim.

As for the Taslim if one says "Assalamu ‘alayna wa ‘ala ‘ibadil lahis salihin" it is enough and he has left the Salat -

but to add after it "Assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu" is a Mustahab addition to to the former clause and also one can recite only "Assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu" without reciting "Assalamu ‘alayna wa ‘ala ‘ibadil lahis salihin" and that will be a complete Taslim as the mojority opinion of scholars is that you have Takhyir between the two clauses.

In other words there are two main clauses to Taslim

(1)"Assalamu ‘alayna wa ‘ala ‘ibadil lahis salihin" and (2)"Assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu"

if one recites (1) he has left the salat and it is mustahab to recite (2)

if one recites (2) straight without (1) he has also left the salat (obviously he can't recite (1) after reciting (2) first)

Jazakallah brothers.

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Not only Shaykh Tusi but it is also said that Shaykh Mufid and Allamah Hilli thought that Taslim as a whole was just Mustahab;

Kind of puts a new light to the whole argument about the takbirs after salat.

æ ÇÎÊáÝ ÇáÃÕÍÇÈ Ýí ÇáÊÓáíã åá åæ æÇÌÈ Ãæ ãÓÊÍÈ¿ ÝÞÇá ÇáãÑÊÖì Ýí ÇáãÓÇÆá ÇáäÇÕÑíÉ æ ÇáãÍãÏíÉ¡ æ ÃÈæ ÇáÕáÇÍ¡ æ ÓáÇÑ¡ æ ÇÈä ÃÈí ÚÞíá¡ æ ÇÈä ÒåÑÉ ÈÇáæÌæÈ. æ ÞÇá ÇáÔíÎÇä: æ ÇÈä ÇáÈÑÇÌ¡ æ ÇÈä ÅÏÑíÓ æ ÃßËÑ ÇáãÊÃÎÑíä ÈÇáÇÓÊÍÈÇÈ

Allamah Majlisi in Mirat Uqul discussing Hadith no.6 In the Bab ÈÇÈ ÇáÊÔåÏ Ýí ÇáÑßÚÊíä ÇáÃæáÊíä æ ÇáÑÇÈÚÉ æ ÇáÊÓáíãþ

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(salam)

(bismillah)

There's actually some decent argument that it isn't, but rather it's mustahabb to do. Tusi held this view apparently.)

Hmm that is interesting. Did Al-Toosi talk about this in his Al-MabsooT? I need to read up on Al-Toosi's opinion, and how he derived this.

I was reading through Al-Toosi's fiqh book, and here is what it says concerning this.

Here is what Al-Toosi has said in his book Al-Nihaayah.

و أقلّ ما يجزي الإنسان في التّشهّد الشّهادتان و الصّلاة على النّبيّ محمّد و آله الطّيبين. فإن زاد على ذلك، كان أفضل.

“and the minimum that a person says in tashahhud is the shahadatayn and prayers upon Prophet Muhammad and the purified ones. But to do more than is better.

  • Source:
  • Al-Toosi, Al-Nihaayah fee Mujarrad Al-Fiqh wa Al-Fataawa, pg. 83

And here is what it said about the 3 takbeers, found in the section of Ta`qeeb (things done AFTER prayers)

فإذا انصرف من صلاته يستحبّ له أن يقول قبل قيامه من مصلّاه: «اللّه أكبر» ثلاث مرّات يرفع بها يديه إلى شحمتي أذنيه،

"One is recommended to say before standing up to leave the place of prayer. Raise his hands up to the earlobes and say 'Allaahu Akbar' three times…"

  • Source:
  • Al-Toosi, Al-Nihaayah fee Mujarrad Al-Fiqh wa Al-Fataawa, pg. 84

As you can see the up and down motion of 3 takbeers is no where to be found in hadeeth or classical scholars.

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri

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(salam)

(bismillah)

I was reading through Al-Toosi's fiqh book, and here is what it says concerning this.

Here is what Al-Toosi has said in his book Al-Nihaayah.

æ ÃÞáø ãÇ íÌÒí ÇáÅäÓÇä Ýí ÇáÊøÔåøÏ ÇáÔøåÇÏÊÇä æ ÇáÕøáÇÉ Úáì ÇáäøÈíø ãÍãøÏ æ Âáå ÇáØøíÈíä. ÝÅä ÒÇÏ Úáì Ðáß¡ ßÇä ÃÝÖá.

“and the minimum that a person says in tashahhud is the shahadatayn and prayers upon Prophet Muhammad and the purified ones. But to do more than is better.

  • Source:
  • Al-Toosi, Al-Nihaayah fee Mujarrad Al-Fiqh wa Al-Fataawa, pg. 83

And here is what it said about the 3 takbeers, found in the section of Ta`qeeb (things done AFTER prayers)

ÝÅÐÇ ÇäÕÑÝ ãä ÕáÇÊå íÓÊÍÈø áå Ãä íÞæá ÞÈá ÞíÇãå ãä ãÕáøÇå: «Çááøå ÃßÈÑ» ËáÇË ãÑøÇÊ íÑÝÚ ÈåÇ íÏíå Åáì ÔÍãÊí ÃÐäíå¡

"One is recommended to say before standing up to leave the place of prayer. Raise his hands up to the earlobes and say 'Allaahu Akbar' three times…"

  • Source:
  • Al-Toosi, Al-Nihaayah fee Mujarrad Al-Fiqh wa Al-Fataawa, pg. 84

As you can see the up and down motion of 3 takbeers is no where to be found in hadeeth or classical scholars.

(salam)

íÑÝÚ ÈåÇ íÏíå

What do you understand by this?

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