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Shia: For The Sake Of Argument: Even If Dead Hear?

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35:13 And those whom ye call upon besides Him have not the least power.

35:14 If ye call them, they will not listen to your call,

and IF THEY WERE TO LISTEN (for the sake of argument), they CANNOT answer your (call).

On the Day of Judgment they will reject your "Partnership". and none, (O man!) can tell thee (the Truth) like the One Who is acquainted with all things.

Now how can you support your claim that deads can listen (even martyred or whatever) and answer your prayer?

Btw, Allah never said that martyred are ALIVE in their graves rather he said, they are living a life near Allah, in the heavens.

Jesus AS reply in Quran:

5:117 And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.' "

Now 2:111 "Bring your (clear) proofs if you are truthful".

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35:13 And those whom ye call upon besides Him have not the least power.

35:14 If ye call them, they will not listen to your call,

and IF THEY WERE TO LISTEN (for the sake of argument), they CANNOT answer your (call).

On the Day of Judgment they will reject your "Partnership". and none, (O man!) can tell thee (the Truth) like the One Who is acquainted with all things.

Now how can you support your claim that deads can listen (even martyred or whatever) and answer your prayer?

Btw, Allah never said that martyred are ALIVE in their graves rather he said, they are living a life near Allah, in the heavens.

Jesus AS reply in Quran:

5:117 And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.' "

Now 2:111 "Bring your (clear) proofs if you are truthful".

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Tawassul through the Awliya according to SunniPath

"Tawassul through the awliya, and righteous believers is permitted according the four schools of Sunni Islam, for the same reason that tawassul through the Prophet (
Allah
bless him & give him peace) is permitted."

Regarding my personal opinion of Tawassul, I personally don't call on anyone besides Allah azzawajal, so I can only speak for myself. I don't find it right in my heart to say "Oh Muhammad please intercede for me and make Du'a for me", but I have no problem saying "Oh Allah please forgive me and protect me from sins and guide me to paradise, ameen." So I'm still researching the issue of Tawassul, I don't think anyone should say "this is shirk" because it is the individual's choice, and Allah knows best what is in their heart and what their intention is. If you take headache pills, your intention is to remove the headache, but you still say Bismillah and make du'a... are the headache pills suddenly a form of shirk because they intercede to remove your headache? That is the sort of logic I apply when someone says people who believe in and perform Tawassul are leaving the fold of Islam, it is unjust to say to anyone...

They will have no power of intercession, save him who hath made a covenant with his Lord. (19:87)

He knoweth what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot intercede except for him whom He accepteth, and they quake for awe of Him. (21:28)

Say: Unto Allah belongeth all intercession. His is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. And afterward unto Him ye will be brought back. (39:44)

And those unto whom they cry instead of Him possess no power of intercession, saving him who beareth witness unto the Truth knowingly. (43:86)

Tafsir Ibn Kathir on 43:86

[وَلاَ يَمْلِكُ الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِهِ]

(And those whom they invoke instead of Him have no power) means, the idols and false gods.

[الشَّفَـعَةَ]

(of intercession) means, they are not able to intercede for them.

[إِلاَّ مَن شَهِدَ بِالْحَقِّ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ]

(except for those who bear witness to the truth knowingly, and they know.) This means, but the one who bears witness to the truth has knowledge and insight, so his intercession with
Allah
will avail, by His leave.

I read this interesting story, which brings up a very good point:

Sayyid Sharafuddin, a famous Shia scholar, went on pilgrimage to the

House of
Allah
during the reign of King Abdul Aziz Ibn Saud. He was one of

those who were invited to the King's palace to celebrate the Eid of al-

Adh'ha. When his turn came to shake the King's hand, he presented a leather

bound Quran to the King. The King took the Quran and placed it on his

forehead and then kissed it. Sayyid Sharafuddin said: "O' King! why do

you kiss and glorify the cover which is made of a goat's skin?!" The king

answered: "I meant to glorify the Holy Quran, not the goat's skin." Sayyid

Sharafuddin said: "Well said O' King! We do the same when we kiss the

window or the door of the Prophet's Chamber, we know that it is made of

iron, and could not harm or render a benefit, but we mean what is behind

the iron and wood, we mean to respect the Messenger of
Allah
in the same

way as you meant with the Quran when you kissed its goat's skin cover."

The audience was impressed by his speech and said: "You are right." The

King was forced to allow the pilgrims to ask for blessings from the

Prophet's relics, until the order was reversed by the successor of that

King.

The issue is not that they are afraid of people associating others with

Allah

, rather, it is a political issue based on antagonizing Muslims in

order to consolidate their own power and authority over Muslims, and

history is the witness to what they have done.

Also, for anyone who thinks to make takfir on anyone, especially someone who says 'La ilaha ilallah', even if they think Tawassul is allowed and you do not, consider the following hadith:

Narrated Usama bin Zaid: Allah's Apostle sent us towards Al-Huruqa, and in the morning we attacked them and defeated them. I and an Ansari man followed a man from among them and when we took him over, he said, "La ilaha illal-Lah." On hearing that, the Ansari man stopped, but I killed him by stabbing him with my spear. When we returned, the Prophet came to know about that and he said, "O Usama! Did you kill him after he had said "La ilaha ilal-Lah?" I said, "But he said so only to save himself." The Prophet kept on repeating that so often that I wished I had not embraced Islam before that day. (Volume 5, Book 59, Number 568: (Sahih Bukhari))

In defense of Tawassul... for anyone who is interested in reading their perspective.

Seeking mediation (tawassul) of Imam Mahdi (as)

Tafseer according to Pooya/M.A. Ali

Regarding 43:86

Refer to the commentary of Baqarah: 48 for intercession. Also refer to Baqarah: 255; Maryam: 87; TaHa: 109; Yunus: 3; Anbiya : 28 and Saba: 23.

According to this verse he who bears witness to the truth has the power of intercession. Refer to the commentary of Hud : 17 and Rad : 43 according to which Ali ibn abi Talib is the witness. As the greatest witness (shahid) Imam Husayn (refer to the commentary of Saffat: 107 for dhibhin azim) has the power of intercession.

Baqarah 48

On the day of resurrection absolute justice will prevail. The chosen people also will be judged in view of their actions.

If "nor shall intercession be accepted" is not understood by knowing its particular use in this verse, and by making reference to other verses of the Quran in this connection, every ordinary reader comes to a wrong conclusion.

Allah has prescribed for Himself mercy (An-am: 12 and 54), and says in verse 87 of Yusuf that verily, none despairs of Allah's mercy save disbelieving people. The just Allah is also the merciful Lord. His mercy conditions His justice.

The verses, which make certain that in the divine scheme of reward and punishment the "institution" of intercession has been firmly established, are quoted below:

Who can intercede with Him, except by His permission.

(BAQARAH: 255)

They shall have no power of intercession, save he who has taken a promise from the merciful.

(MARYAM: 87)

On that day no intercession avails, save (that of) him to whom the merciful has given permission and whose word He accepts.

(TAHA: 109)

There is no intercessor save after His permission;

(YUNUS: 3)

There are several such verses in the Quran which prove untrue the theory of non-availability of intercession propagated by a misguided school of thought among the Muslims.

The Holy Prophet and the thoroughly purified Imams (Ahzab: 33) are those upon whom Allah has bestowed (an-amta alayhim - Fatihah :7) the power of intercession.

The word shafa (to pair or to join a thing to its like) is the root of shafa-at, which means intercession. It can be favourable or unfavourable, as per verse 85 of al Nisa. It signifies the loving attachment of a person with his ideal or model whom he follows. On the day of judgement the wicked and the virtuous will be separated, therefore, it will be a day of pairing of the souls according to their affinity and attachment in this world - "remember the day when We will summon every people with their Imam (leader)", says verse 71 of Bani Israil.

The inadmissibility of intercession here is in the case of those who not only do not avoid evil but make a choice of wickedness as their mode of life; which is the direct result of their wilful rejection of the path of the thoroughly purified, adherence to whose guidance would have saved them from eternal damnation.

It is this despair of the non-availability of Allah's mercy which had compelled the founders of the Christian Church to invent the doctrine of atonement - God, in order to pardon man, in spite of His justice, incarnated Himself into the form a begotten son, called Jesus, and then got Himself killed so that the price of the sins of man be paid. This unreasonable idea of redemption gives man licence to sin as and when he likes.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

The word yawm, in this verse, refers to the life of the hereafter which includes the term of life beginning with the departure of the soul till the final resurrection. In some verses of the Quran it is said that every human being will undergo a trial on the day of final resurrection as an individual, whereas some other verses suggest groups of people, along with their leaders, will come before the Lord. According to some verses the wicked will be condemned without being permitted to put forward their lame excuses, whereas other state that some of the wicked will accuse their leaders for misleading them. There is no contradiction. In fact there are several varying stages in the intermediary period as well as in the final phase. The examination of every soul according to its individual deeds may differ from the accountability of its social behaviour. A man may be condemned as an individual but on account of his attachment to the divinely chosen wasilah (support and influence), he may be redeemed. The Quran, in many places, asserts the effectiveness of intercession, therefore, the negation here either refers to a particular condition or to the fact that no intercession offered by a soul on its own behalf shall be accepted. Only those who have been authorised by Allah shall have the right to intercede.

The wavering between belief and disbelief by the Bani Israil is also visible among the followers of other prophets. All the messengers of Allah patiently put up with this kind of attitude in order to check desertion in the early stages of the propagation of the faith. Drift from the truth and reversion to falsehood was discouraged, and the doors of repentance were kept open, but only a few took advantage of the leniency.

Hud 17

There are several traditions reported on the authority of Ahl ul Bayt, and also narrated by well-known Muslim scholars like Jalal al Din al Suyuti in Durr al Manthur, Muhammad bin Ahmad Qartabi in Tafsir Qartabi, Sayyid Hashim Bahrayni in Tafsir Burhan, Abd Ali bin Jumah Hawyazi in Tafsir Nur al Thaqalayn, Abu Ali al Tabrasi in Tafsir Majma al Bayan, Abu Ishaq al Thalabi in Tasir al Kabir, and Abu Nu-aym in Hilyatul Awliya that shahid in this verse refers to Ali ibn abi Talib, just as shahid in verse 43 of ar Rad also refers to Imam Ali.

In reply to a question Imam Ali said that in "Is he then (like unto him) who has a clear proof from his Lord, and a witness, from Him, follows him," the Holy Prophet is the divine "bayyanah" and I am the witness, guide and mercy.

Allah has declared Ali to be the Imam who alone testifies the truth about Allah and His Prophet, and like the Holy Prophet who is "mercy unto the world", he is also "mercy'? because both of them are from one and the same divine light, therefore, Ali is the only true successor of the Holy Prophet whom all the Muslims should follow if they have truly and sincerely surrendered themselves to the will of Allah.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

In this verse yatlu means to follow, and to translate it "to recite" is incorrect as there is no mention of anything to be recited. On the contrary a "person" has been mentioned, who is with clear evidence from his Lord. Therefore "to recite" is meaningless. It is clearly said that there is a person who has come with clear evidence from Allah and there is another who immediately follows and bears witness to the truthfulness of the first; and before him the book of Musa had borne witness.

All commentators agree that the person with the clear evidence from Allah is the Holy Prophet.

The person who follows him is next to him, none come between these two.

The Holy Prophet is the first person. His witness is the second person.

The same testimony was borne by the book of Musa before.

Both are "Imam" and "Rahmah" (also refer to Ahqaf: 12).

The witness is Ali ibn abi Talib as has been mentioned by a large number of Muslim scholars mentioned above.

(salam)

Allahu 'alem

Edited by AlayhisSalaam

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Btw, Allah never said that martyred are ALIVE in their graves rather he said, they are living a life near Allah, in the heavens.

^^ right there , you answered the query yourself .... Allah gives permission to whom he wills to hear the Duas through waseela which is intercession towards Allah (swt)

the verses you randomly picked out were talking about idol worship BESIDES God not TO God... You see ? Big difference .. The latter is shirk .. But intercession isn't ... The Ahlul Bayt can intercession for you as they have been given this power by the Permission of Allah (swt) , ofcourse Allah can hear ... But if you intercession with the beloved of Allah there's more chance of your dua being accepted ....

This has been talked about loads of times and in lots of details (yawn) :/

w Salam

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Tawassul through the Awliya according to SunniPath

"Tawassul through the awliya, and righteous believers is permitted according the four schools of Sunni Islam, for the same reason that tawassul through the Prophet (
Allah
bless him & give him peace) is permitted."

Allah called Tawasul Shirk.

10:18 They worship, instead of Allah (call upon), what can neither harm them nor help them, saying, ‘These are our intercessors with Allah.’ Say: ‘Would you inform Allah of something about which He does not know either in the heavens or on the earth?’ May He be glorified and exalted above what they associate with Him!

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^^ right there , you answered the query yourself .... Allah gives permission to whom he wills to hear the Duas through waseela which is intercession towards Allah (swt)

the verses you randomly picked out were talking about idol worship BESIDES God not TO God... You see ? Big difference .. The latter is shirk .. But intercession isn't ... The Ahlul Bayt can intercession for you as they have been given this power by the Permission of Allah (swt) , ofcourse Allah can hear ... But if you intercession with the beloved of Allah there's more chance of your dua being accepted ....

This has been talked about loads of times and in lots of details (yawn) :/

w Salam

5:117 And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.' "

And tawwasul thingy,

10:18 They worship, instead of Allah (call upon), what can neither harm them nor help them, saying, ‘These are our intercessors with Allah.’ Say: ‘Would you inform Allah of something about which He does not know either in the heavens or on the earth?’ May He be glorified and exalted above what they associate with Him!

the verses you randomly picked out were talking about idol worship BESIDES God not TO God... You see ? Big difference .. The latter is shirk .. But intercession isn't ... The Ahlul Bayt can intercession for you as they have been given this power by the Permission of Allah (swt) , ofcourse Allah can hear ... But if you intercession with the beloved of Allah there's more chance of your dua being accepted ....

What is idol worship?

Arabs never claim that Laat, Manaat, Uza, Naila and Hubul are Gods or whatever. Rather they said:10:18‘These are our intercessors (shafee) with Allah.’

10:18 They worship, instead of Allah (call upon), what can neither harm them nor help them, saying, ‘These are our intercessors with Allah.’ Say: ‘Would you inform Allah of something about which He does not know either in the heavens or on the earth?’ May He be glorified and exalted above what they associate with Him!

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Allah called Tawasul Shirk.

10:18 They worship, instead of Allah (call upon), what can neither harm them nor help them, saying, ‘These are our intercessors with Allah.’ Say: ‘Would you inform Allah of something about which He does not know either in the heavens or on the earth?’ May He be glorified and exalted above what they associate with Him!

You need to interpret Ayat by combining relevant Ayat and then getting an understanding. http://www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/understanding_the_intercession_prophet_muhammad.htm

Surah 34:23

"No intercession can avail in His Presence, except for those for whom He has granted permission. So far (is this the case) that, when terror is removed from their hearts (at the Day of Judgment, then) will they say, 'what is it that your Lord commanded?' they will say, 'That which is true and just; and He is the Most High Most Great'."

Surah 20:109

On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by (God) Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him.

Surah 2:255

God! There is no god but He, - the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).

Surah 21:28

He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and they offer no intercession except for those who are acceptable, and they stand in awe and reverence of His (Glory).

Surah 53:26

How many-so-ever be the angels in the heavens, and that he is acceptable to Him. their intercession will avail nothing except after God has given leave for whom He pleases

...

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 10:18]

To pretend that there are other powers than Allah is to invent lies. The idolaters shut their eyes to the goodness and glory of Allah, and go after false gods, and say by way of excuse that their (false) gods will intercede for them and save them from eternal punishment on the day of judgment. Even the noblest cannot intercede as a right, but only with His permission. See commentary of al Baqarah: 48.

So note again we all agree that one must have Allah(SWT) permission for the tawassul to be accepted.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 53:26]

There will be no intercession available to the disbelievers, but Allah has given permission to the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt to intercede and advocate on behalf of the believers. Refer to the commentary of Baqarah: 48. There are several verses in the Quran in which it is clearly stated that Allah gives permission of intercession to whom He pleases. So the theory of "no intercession at all" is unquranic and contrary to the will of Allah.

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Allah called Tawasul Shirk.

10:18 They worship, instead of Allah (call upon), what can neither harm them nor help them, saying, ‘These are our intercessors with Allah.’ Say: ‘Would you inform Allah of something about which He does not know either in the heavens or on the earth?’ May He be glorified and exalted above what they associate with Him!

(salam)

I'll begin by reminding my brothers and sisters of the following Ayat:

And when My servants question thee concerning Me, then surely I am near. I answer the prayer of the suppliant when he crieth unto Me. So let them hear My call and let them trust in Me, in order that they may be led aright. (2:186)

I don't agree that 10:18 is calling Tawassul 'Shirk' (nor 'Haraam'...) First let us look at what a contemporary Shi'a scholar says about the Shi'a view of Tawassul:

Contemporary Shia scholar and theologian Jaafar Subhani, summarized the forms of intercession in Shia Islam as follows:

  • Intercession using the Quran: He backed this form of intercession using examples of supplications where believers ask Allah by the holiness of the Quran.
  • Intercession using righteous deeds: In this form, the believers ask Allah by the deeds they introduce in advance such as fasting or charity.
  • Intercession using the term "Oh Muhammad": That means believers address directly to the prophet by calling on his name so the prophet asks Allah on their behalf.
  • Intercession using the supplication of other believers: This is the most common form in which a believer may ask any other believer saying: please pray for me.

This is the ayat in question, and I believe it suffices to say that the following responses apply to many similar ayat as well (where Tawassul or intercession are involved):

And they worship other than Allah that which neither harms them nor benefits them, and they say, "These are our intercessors with Allah " Say, "Do you inform Allah of something He does not know in the heavens or on the earth?" Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him (10:18)

Tafsir Ibn Kathir:

(18. And they worship besides
Allah
things that harm them not, nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with
Allah
.'' Say: "Do you inform
Allah
of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth'' Glorified and Exalted is He above all that which they associate as partners (with Him)!) (19. Mankind were but one community, then they differed (later); and had not it been for a Word that went forth before from your Lord, it would have been settled between them regarding what they differed.)

Allah

reproaches the idolators that worshipped others beside
Allah
, thinking that
those gods
would intercede for them before
Allah
.
Allah
states that
these gods do not harm or benefit
. They don't have any authority over anything, nor do they own anything. These gods can never do what the idolators had claimed about them. That is why
Allah
said:

[قُلْ أَتُنَبِّئُونَ اللَّهَ بِمَا لاَ يَعْلَمُ فِى السَّمَـوَتِ وَلاَ فِى الاٌّرْضِ]

(Say: `Do you inform
Allah
of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth') Ibn Jarir said: "This means,
`Are you telling
Allah
about what may not happen in the heavens and earth'
Allah
then announced that His Glorious Self is far above their Shirk and Kufr by saying:

[سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَى عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ]

(Glorified and Exalted is He above all that which they associate as partners (with Him)!)

The Ayat you referred to is very clearly, both contextually as well as historically, referring to people who believe in false gods (ie Zeus, Apollo, Thor) and Allah is clearly telling such people: ""Do you inform Allah of something He does not know", which means that this thing simply does not exist, at all, or Allah would know about it obviously. So Allah is saying that false gods (ie Zeus...) do not exist, and Allah knows they do not exist.

So the only way for this Ayat to refer to Tawassul is if the Prophets and Imams, who the Muslims ask to make du'a on their behalf or to receive intercession from, did not exist.

We know that Muhammad(sawws) existed, so this ayat cannot apply to him, because we're not informing Allah of something that He doesn't already know about.

"Shiites know quite clearly, that if they are using the prophet and his progeny as a "tawassul", it is Allah (SWT) that agrees for an act to happen or not. However, the presence of Wasilah can speed up the process."

We would urge Al Khider to conduct some research into his own sources before attacking the Shi'a on this point, for the texts of Ahl'ul Sunnah also confirm that Prophets made tawassal by calling upon the Ahl'ul bayt (as). They confirmed this in their commentaries of this verse:

"Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration and his Lord turned toward him; for He is Oft-Returning Most Merciful (Surah Baqarah verse 37)"

In this regard we shall cite two narrations from Tafseer Durre Manthur, by Imam of Ahl'ul Sunnah al Hafidh Jaladeen Suyuti:

"Hadhrath 'Ali narrates that he asked Rasulullah 'Which words did
Allah
(swt) teach Adam. He (swt) replied 'O
Allah
I seek repentance through Muhammad and his family".

"Ibn al Najjar narrates that Ibn Abbas asked Rasulullah (s) in connection with the above matter, and Rasul (s) stated, Adam send "Through Muhammad, 'Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husayn, please accept my repentance.
Allah
(swt) then accepted his repentance".

In fact, quite the opposite is true, Allah already knows about Muhammad(sawws) and already has revealed verses of tawassul such as the following:

He knows what is before them, and what is behind them, and they offer no intercession except for those who are acceptable, and they stand in awe and reverence of His (Glory). (21:28)

How can we ask Muhammad(sawws) for intercession if he doesn't know us? Rather, Allah azzawajal grants power to whom He wills. Nobody thinks that Muhammad(sawws), or any prophet, nor any imam, have any power whatsoever, except if Allah has given them power. Therefore, nobody is saying that they are anywhere equal to Allah, in fact we lower them to the status of nothing in comparison to Allah, and only grant them any status after Allah has made their status known to us.

Edited by AlayhisSalaam

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5:117 And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.' "

Have you read the "Can Dead Hear" article at AA?

The Salafi Deception

Objection 3 : Wahabi claim that Hadhrat Isa (as) deny to be witness of his nation after his death

The 3rd objection by Wahabies / Deobandies is this that Isa (as) also said that he was not witness of actions of his nation after his death. They quote the following Quranic verse as a proof.

[Yusufali 5:116-117] And behold!
Allah
will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of
Allah
'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden."Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship
Allah
, my Lord and your Lord'; and
I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them
; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

So from this verse, Salafies/Wabahies conclude that Hadhrat Isa (as) was unaware of the Deeds of his nation after his death. That is why he is saying that he was witness only when he dwelt among them. And after that, he was unaware of the Deeds of his nation and hence it is wrong to say that Prophet Muhammad (saw) is also aware of our actions after his death.

Reply

Salafies cannot cite the incidents on the Day of Ressurrection in order to prove that Prophets are unaware of our Deeds, while all these things are happening there in "Rhetorical" from, in order to make things clear to Kuffar, and only these things are mentioned which happened in this world (i.e. account of only those actions/deeds are taken into consideration, which we did in this world. And all those things, which happened Spiritually in this world, they would not be mentioned at that stage.

If Salafies don't accept this fact and keep on sticking to their Conjectures, then we will show them how many contraditions are going to occur in Quran.

Problem with Wahabies is this that they take only one part of Quran which suits to their ideas, while leaving the other. The only right understanding of Quran can come through Ahle-Bait (as).

Before we proceed further, it is necessary to understand what Salafies understand from being "Witness".

For example, let's see the following verse of Quran:

[Pickthal 4:41] But how (will it be with them) when We bring of every people a witness, and We bring thee (O Muhammad) a witness against these?

And similarly the following verse:

[Pickthal 2:143] Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you.

Common Muslim understanding is this that Shahid means a witness, and when ala follows shahid it means a raqib or muhaymin (a close watcher and a careful observer). Please refer to al-Baqarah: 143. Also refer to al-Rad: 43; al-Hud: 17; al-Nahl: 84 and 89.
Allah
shall bring, from among every people, a witness, and bring the Holy Prophet as a witness over those witnesses. So it is a blasphemy to say that he is not aware of our actions.

But contrary to this Muslim Understanding, Salafies claim that Rasool
Allah
(saww) never obsereved the actions of his nation or previous nations. And he became Shahid (witness) only due to Quran i.e.
Allah
told the stories of earlier nations in Quran. And Rasool
Allah
(saw) will give that witness on the bases of this knowledge of Quran.

The Saudi published Urdu Quran with Urdu translation and Tafseer, writes in the Tafseer of above mentioned verse 4:41 that:

"Every Prophet will say to
Allah
that they gave His message to their respective nations. And if they didn't accept it then it was not our fault. Upon that Prophet Muhammad (saw) will come forward and witness: "Ya
Allah
, they are telling the truth." Rasool
Allah
(saw) will give this witness on the bases of Quran, which was revealed on him and it is telling the stories of earlier Nations."

If it has become clear to our Readers what Salafies think about "Witness", then we can proceed forward.

[Pickthal 4:159] There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death,
and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them
-

In this verse,
Allah
(swt) is confirming that Hadhrat Isa (as) is "Witness" to each and every Christian and Jew till the day of Qiyammah.

Even if we look at the Salafi doctrine of "Witness", again Hadhrat Isa (as) would be knowing about his nation, while near the end of this universe, he will again descend to this world and pray behind Imam Mahdi (as). And Quran will there with all the stories of earlier nations.

So, this fact is beyond any doubt that Hadhrat Isa (as) is aware of the actions of his nation, and will be a "Witness" of this on Day of Judgment.

Now situation is this that if we have to follow the Salafi Doctrine of Literalism, then we have contradictions in the following two Quranic Verses:

  1. Verse [5:117] says that Isa (as) will say on day of judgment:
    "... I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them"
  2. But in verse [4:159],
    Allah
    is denying Hadhrat Isa (as) and saying that
    he (Isa) will be a witness over each and every Christian and Jew that will come till Qiyammah"
  3. And also according to the Salafi theory of giving witness, we have to declare Hadhrat Isa (as) to be a lair (naudobillah) when he will say that he doesn't know about what they did after his death, and he was witness only when he dwelt among them.

    (While he came later in this world and had Quran, which was full of stories of his nation).

Dear Readers, we hope you would have been able now to see the results of following Salafi doctrine of Literalism.

And as we stated earlier, the things are happening in "Rhetorical" form on the day of Judgment. When Hadhrat Isa (as) said that he was witness only when he dwelt among them, then it means that he was responsible for his duties while he was among his nation. And as
Allah
(swt) took him up to the heavens, then he was no more responsible for the Deeds of his nation.

And on the day of Judgment, when account of our Deeds are taken, then only those things are mentioned which practically happened in this world. But no account will be taken of those things,
which happened Spiritually at that stage
.

If Salafies still think it to be otherwise, then surely they are blaming Hadhrat Isa (as) to be a lair and also they are claiming to be contraditions in Quran.

Similarly, there a lot more Ahadith which show that incidents will take place in Rhetorical Form on the Day of Judgement. For example, we all know that all the Prophets will surely go to Jannah. But still there are a lot of Ahadith which tell how horrible the day of Judgment will be and even all these prophets will be trembling out of fear and didn't know what will happen with them. And they also have to go through this Rehtorical Questioning.

In earleir chapters, we mentioned so many clear Quranic verses and Ahadith of Rasool
Allah
(saw), which make it beyond any doubt that Dead can hear. But Salafies are trying to deny all these Quranic Verses and Ahadith, only on the bases of their Conjectures.

Allahuma Sallay
Allah
Muhammad wa Aale Muhammad.

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For example, let's see the following verse of Quran:

[Pickthal 4:41] But how (will it be with them) when We bring of every people a witness, and We bring thee (O Muhammad) a witness against these?

And similarly the following verse:

[Pickthal 2:143] Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you.

............

Allahuma Sallay Allah Muhammad wa Aale Muhammad.

(salam)

I don't understand the logic which was used in this argument you presented...

4:41 and 2:143 do not imply that Muhammad (pbuh) will know every deed of every individual of his nation and then witness them individually. Rather, it implies, rather obviously even, that he will tell them "I'm not god, I never claimed to be, Allah is One, I am His final messenger", that is what those verses mean regarding being a "witness", as far as my understanding is concerned.

Same can be said with Isa (as) and every other prophet, they will all say Qul Huwallahu Ahad, (say) God is One. That is their testimony...

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(salam)

I don't understand the logic which was used in this argument you presented...

4:41 and 2:143 do not imply that Muhammad (pbuh) will know every deed of every individual of his nation and then witness them individually. Rather, it implies, rather obviously even, that he will tell them "I'm not god, I never claimed to be, Allah is One, I am His final messenger", that is what those verses mean regarding being a "witness", as far as my understanding is concerned.

Same can be said with Isa (as) and every other prophet, they will all say Qul Huwallahu Ahad, (say) God is One. That is their testimony...

Q1. How can you tell a Wahhabi?

A1. The first thread they will make on any forum is on tawassul.

Q2. How can you tell a thoroughly brain washed Wahhabi?

A2. They are mostly recent reverts.

Q3. What methods they use to prove that they are brain washed.

A3. They will usually use cut-and-paste and tired old arguments.

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You need to interpret Ayat by combining relevant Ayat and then getting an understanding. http://www.answering...et_muhammad.htm

Surah 34:23

"No intercession can avail in His Presence, except for those for whom He has granted permission. So far (is this the case) that, when terror is removed from their hearts (at the Day of Judgment, then) will they say, 'what is it that your Lord commanded?' they will say, 'That which is true and just; and He is the Most High Most Great'.".....................There will be no intercession available to the disbelievers, but Allah has given permission to the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt to intercede and advocate on behalf of the believers. Refer to the commentary of Baqarah: 48. There are several verses in the Quran in which it is clearly stated that Allah gives permission of intercession to whom He pleases. So the theory of "no intercession at all" is unquranic and contrary to the will of Allah.

I know what is intercession.

Prophet Mohammad SAW WILL intercede on the Day of Judgment. This is what Allah calls permitted "Shifaa" which is mentioned in Ayat al Kursi. But Prophet SAW does not intercede daily. He is NOT All-hearing, All-seeing, All-knowing, All-mighty, All-powerful. Only Allah is.

Arabs mixed these both quite different concepts and said,

10:18'These are our intercessors (shafee) with Allah.'

But Allah rejected this concept y saying,

Say: 'Would you inform Allah of something about which He does not know either in the heavens or on the earth?'

And, for the final Prophet SAW, he says,

72:20 Say, "I call upon only my Lord; I do not include anyone beside Him."

72:21 Say, "I possess no power to harm you, nor to guide you."

72:22 Say, "No one can protect me from GOD, nor can I find any other refuge beside Him.

This is very clear message. But now I am waiting for the twisting of these verses by shia fellows.

Q1. How can you tell a Wahhabi?

A1. The first thread they will make on any forum is on tawassul.

Q2. How can you tell a thoroughly brain washed Wahhabi?

A2. They are mostly recent reverts.

Q3. What methods they use to prove that they are brain washed.

A3. They will usually use cut-and-paste and tired old arguments.

A.1: I am NOT a Wahabi. Sorry, I don't belong to any sect. My religion is what is mentioned in Quran and in authentic Ahadith.

A.2: I reverted from Non-practicing Sufiism to real Islam. But yeah, washing is good. Quran washed my all wrong concepts. I studied Quran with translation for 10 years, yes, I completed Quran in 10 years without any Imam, teacher, lecturer or whatever. I did free study. But yeah, I kept on asking Allah to guide me. That is why what I believe is now unshakable Alhamdulillah.

A.3: I just cut and paste the Quranic verses from a search engine http://www.islamicity.com/quransearch, nothing else. So, you are bashed out.

Btw, now a days I am learning Arabic and now I translate Quran by my own with guidance of Allah which I always ask.

Edited by Slave To Allah

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There's this widely known Sunni hadith from some "sahih" book. It says that Umar bin Khattab requested the holy Prophet's (pbuh) uncle, Hz. Abbas (ra) to pray for rain, because there had been a drought for some time. So Abbas (ra) prayed and asked God to have mercy on the people of the Prophet (pbuh) and there was rain.

Now isn't that open "shirk", by your standards?

Why didn't Umar pray himself?

(Note: I bet some wahabis will pull out a hundred maggots out of this hadith's isnad.)

And for the last time, shaheed (martyrs) are NOT dead. Why you only read the parts of Quran that conform to your set of peculiarly limited beliefs. Your argument "even if dead can hear" is preposterous and against Quran. You should first repent.

In Prophet's (pbuh) life, we read a lot of hadiths about a lot of different people coming to him ASKING for a lot of different type of things - for duas, etc. And he did it for them. Why didn't he say "Don't ask from me, that is shirk. Go and pray directly on your own."

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This article covers Wasila.. http://www.mostmerciful.com/wasila-intercession.htm

I'm still not convinced that we should ask someone who is 'dead' for anything, why not just ask Allah ourselves?

The hadith about the rain, didn't Umar ask Abbas while Abbas was alive? So it's not the same is it? Goto your Imam and ask him to pray for you, sure, he is alive, nobody argues against this. The argument is only against praying to the dead.

So in order to defeat such an argument, one would have to show clear evidence that praying to the dead is acceptable by Allah, and/or that Muhammad(sawws) is not actually dead, and that Allah azzawajal has given him the ability to hear and comprehend millions of simultaneous prayers as people call on him simultaneously, which by human standards would be impossible to comprehend and would surely not be a peaceful existence for someone besides Allah.

(salam)

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"2.154": And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.

"3.169": And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;

They are not dead. They are not dead. 

And you are forbidden by Allah to call them dead. You are forbidden by Allah to call them dead. 

Repent. And if you don't want to, then go bang your ignorant heads against a wall out of your hatred for Ali (as).

You know who is dead according to God?

"27.79": Therefore rely on Allah; surely you are on the clear truth.

"27.80": Surely you do not make the dead to hear, and you do not make the deaf to hear the call when they go back retreating.

"27.81": Nor can you be a guide to the blind out of their error; you cannot make to bear (any one) except those who believe in Our communications, so they submit.

The likes of those who kept retreating and left Muhammad (pbuh) on the day of Uhud as he kept calling to them. The oblivious people. The munafiqs. The faithless. Their parable is the same as that of the dead according to God. The deafness is from a disease in their hearts.

And it is so absurd because we are being blamed of something we do not practise. We believe in intercession from those who are closest to Allah because of their most immaculate characters and pure service and loyalty to Allah. They are examples to follow for us. They taught us that all power is from Allah and we believe. While the munafiqs who ran away and did not care for Allah are others' examples to follow. Yet you think we commit sin and shirk? SubhanAllah. You blame us so prepostrously. You twist words so hypocritically. You hide the parts of the book that nullify your fake argument.

Have you no fear of Allah?

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"2.154": And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive.

"3.169": And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;

They are not dead. They are not dead.

And you are forbidden by Allah to call them dead. You are forbidden by Allah to call them dead.

Repent. And if you don't want to, then go bang your ignorant heads against a wall out of your hatred for Ali (as).

You know who is dead according to God?

"27.79": Therefore rely on Allah; surely you are on the clear truth.

"27.80": Surely you do not make the dead to hear, and you do not make the deaf to hear the call when they go back retreating.

"27.81": Nor can you be a guide to the blind out of their error; you cannot make to bear (any one) except those who believe in Our communications, so they submit.

The likes of those who kept retreating and left Muhammad (pbuh) on the day of Uhud as he kept calling to them. The oblivious people. The munafiqs. The faithless. Their parable is the same as that of the dead according to God. The deafness is from a disease in their hearts.

And it is so absurd because we are being blamed of something we do not practise. We believe in intercession from those who are closest to Allah because of their most immaculate characters and pure service and loyalty to Allah. They are examples to follow for us. They taught us that all power is from Allah and we believe. While the munafiqs who ran away and did not care for Allah are others' examples to follow. Yet you think we commit sin and shirk? SubhanAllah. You blame us so prepostrously. You twist words so hypocritically. You hide the parts of the book that nullify your fake argument.

Have you no fear of Allah?

1. I have fear for Allah that is why I don't include anyone in His worship.

2. If those are not dead physically, why did you bury them?

3. They are alive in Heavens, not on earth. They eat and enjoy Heavenly life. But they are not "All-hearing, All-seeing, All-knowing" like Allah.

Jesus AS is still alive in Heavens. But Jesus AS reply in Quran:

5:117 And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.' "

72:20 Say, "I call upon only my Lord; I do not include anyone beside Him."

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They are alive in Heavens, not on earth. They eat and enjoy Heavenly life. But they are not "All-hearing, All-seeing, All-knowing" like Allah.

Proof? And why do they have to be "all knowing"? Stop using irrelevant crutches.

If those are not dead physically, why did you bury them?

That sentence makes no sense to support your argument. What do you know of death? Death is for those who move away from Allah.

I have fear for Allah that is why I don't include anyone in His worship.

Good for you. Thats how it should be.

5:117 And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.' "

Please do not quote out of context. Thank you.

"5.116": And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things. 

"5.117": I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.

"5.118": If Thou shouldst chastise them, then surely they are Thy servants; and if Thou shouldst forgive them, then surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.

"5.119": Allah will say: This is the day when their truth shall benefit the truthful ones; they shall have gardens beneath which rivers flow to abide in them for ever: Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Allah; this is the mighty achievement.

Are you saying that we take the Ahl-al-bayt (as) as "gods beside Allah" like the Christians do? For God's sake. Could you be more evil. What has this got to do with intercession?

Lets see what else you have to put forth to support your false accusations against us in this absurdly amusing debate.

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Proof? And why do they have to be "all knowing"? Stop using irrelevant crutches.

That sentence makes no sense to support your argument. What do you know of death? Death is for those who move away from Allah.

Good for you. Thats how it should be.

Please do not quote out of context. Thank you.

"5.116": And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.

"5.117": I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.

"5.118": If Thou shouldst chastise them, then surely they are Thy servants; and if Thou shouldst forgive them, then surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.

"5.119": Allah will say: This is the day when their truth shall benefit the truthful ones; they shall have gardens beneath which rivers flow to abide in them for ever: Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Allah; this is the mighty achievement.

Are you saying that we take the Ahl-al-bayt (as) as "gods beside Allah" like the Christians do? For God's sake. Could you be more evil. What has this got to do with intercession?

Lets see what else you have to put forth to support your false accusations against us in this absurdly amusing debate.

Whatever the context is, it says

5:117 And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things.' "

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There is a difference that all can see and know, except your kind.

We do not take them (as) as gods and partners with Allah like today's Christians do.

To say otherwise, as you are, is a horrid false accusation upon us Shias of Ali (as).

You're peddling your rubbish ideology through such lies and accusations.

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There is a difference that all can see and know, except your kind.

We do not take them (as) as gods and partners with Allah like today's Christians do.

To say otherwise, as you are, is a horrid false accusation upon us Shias of Ali (as).

You're peddling your rubbish ideology through such lies and accusations.

Arabs never called Laat, Mannat, Uza, Naila and Hubul as Gods but they said, 10:18 These are our intercessors with Allah.

10:18 They worship, instead of Allah (call upon), what can neither harm them nor help them, saying, ‘These are our intercessors with Allah.’

Say: ‘Would you inform Allah of something about which He does not know either in the heavens or on the earth?’ May He be glorified and exalted above what they associate with Him!

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Imam of Ahlul Sunnah Alusi al-Baghdadi quoted Ibn 'Abd al-Salam as saying that

"There is no objection in making tawassul to God by means of the dignity (jah) and prime position of the Prophet (s), whether it is in his lifetime or after his death, since dignity here refers to an attribute which is one of the attributes of Almighty Allah. Tawassul by means of dignity of a person other than the Prophet (s) is also permissible, provided that the one who is being considered a wasilah has a station and position of dignity in the sight of Allah.

(Tafsir Ruh al-Ma'ani, vol. 6, page128)

Here, it is clear by the scholars of Ahlal Sunnah that intercession is permissible, not only to those people that Allah allows for during their lifetime, but also after their death. This includes both Prophets and others appointed by Allah as bearers of the Truth.

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Arabs worshipped their "intercessors".

There were 360 idols in total. 359 of these "intercessors" right beside the 360th idol called "Allah".

Repeat after me: "Shias do not worship their intercessors". "Shias do not worship their intercessors". "Shias do not worship their intercessors".

Now read here:

"2.255": Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission?

"21.28": He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves and for fear of Him they tremble.

Among other verses that mention intercession.

There is nothing wrong with intercession or belief in intercession. Get it?

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Yes repeat after me too: Shias do not worship their intercessors whereas the Arabs worshiped their intercessors.

Shias do not worship their intercessors whereas the Arabs worshiped their intercessors.

Shias do not worship their intercessors whereas the Arabs worshiped their intercessors.

Hopefully you can make this distinction now Inshallah :)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who can intercede with Him, except by His permission.

(BAQARAH: 255)

They shall have no power of intercession, save he who has taken a promise from the merciful.

(MARYAM: 87)

There is no intercessor save after His permission;

(YUNUS: 3)

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I have fear for Allah that is why I don't include anyone in His worship.

The Prophet and our Imams can intercede for us. when we ask them for help , they don't have it in their will power to help us as all their power comes from Allah so technically we are asking Allah to help us but as the Imams are infallible/sinless they are closer to Allah then we are so they can help us. An analogy for this would be if there's a box of tissues in a room and someone is right besides it, their hands are practically in the box but you're on the other side of the room. You can either go all the way to the other side of the room to get it or you can tell the person besides it to pass it to you. Intercesion is similar to this. I heard this analogy in a lecture so I may not have conveyed it to the best of my abilities.

Edited by Hawraa29

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Arabs never called Laat, Mannat, Uza, Naila and Hubul as Gods but they said, 10:18 These are our intercessors with Allah.

10:18 They worship, instead of Allah (call upon), what can neither harm them nor help them, saying, ‘These are our intercessors with Allah.’

Say: ‘Would you inform Allah of something about which He does not know either in the heavens or on the earth?’ May He be glorified and exalted above what they associate with Him!

So the Jahiliyya Arabs were monotheists according to you? What then is being referred to here:

Þõáú Ãóíõø ÔóíúÁò ÃóßúÈóÑõ ÔóåóÇÏóÉð ۖ Þõáö Çááóøåõ ۖ ÔóåöíÏñ Èóíúäöí æóÈóíúäóßõãú ۚ æóÃõæÍöíó Åöáóíóø åóٰÐóÇ ÇáúÞõÑúÂäõ áöÃõäúÐöÑóßõãú Èöåö æóãóäú ÈóáóÛó ۚ ÃóÆöäóøßõãú áóÊóÔúåóÏõæäó Ãóäóø ãóÚó Çááóøåö ÂáöåóÉð ÃõÎúÑóìٰ ۚ Þõáú áóÇ ÃóÔúåóÏõ ۚ Þõáú ÅöäóøãóÇ åõæó Åöáóٰåñ æóÇÍöÏñ æóÅöäóøäöí ÈóÑöíÁñ ãöãóøÇ ÊõÔúÑößõæäó {19

Say: 'What thing is greatest in testimony?' Say: 'Allah is witness between me and you, and this Quran has been revealed to me that I may warn you thereby, and whomsoever it may reach. Do you indeed testify that there are other gods with Allah?' Say: 'I do not testify.' Say: 'He is only One God, and I am quit of that you associate.' (6:19)

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Imam of Ahlul Sunnah Alusi al-Baghdadi quoted Ibn 'Abd al-Salam as saying that

"There is no objection in making tawassul to God by means of the dignity (jah) and prime position of the Prophet (s), whether it is in his lifetime or after his death, since dignity here refers to an attribute which is one of the attributes of Almighty Allah. Tawassul by means of dignity of a person other than the Prophet (s) is also permissible, provided that the one who is being considered a wasilah has a station and position of dignity in the sight of Allah.

(Tafsir Ruh al-Ma'ani, vol. 6, page128)

Here, it is clear by the scholars of Ahlal Sunnah that intercession is permissible, not only to those people that Allah allows for during their lifetime, but also after their death. This includes both Prophets and others appointed by Allah as bearers of the Truth.

I think that means its allowed in the form of "ya Allah..." then referring to the prophet pbuh, not directed towards him I.e. ya Muhammad

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So the Jahiliyya Arabs were monotheists according to you? What then is being referred to here:

Þõáú Ãóíõø ÔóíúÁò ÃóßúÈóÑõ ÔóåóÇÏóÉð ۖ Þõáö Çááóøåõ ۖ ÔóåöíÏñ Èóíúäöí æóÈóíúäóßõãú ۚ æóÃõæÍöíó Åöáóíóø åóٰÐóÇ ÇáúÞõÑúÂäõ áöÃõäúÐöÑóßõãú Èöåö æóãóäú ÈóáóÛó ۚ ÃóÆöäóøßõãú áóÊóÔúåóÏõæäó Ãóäóø ãóÚó Çááóøåö ÂáöåóÉð ÃõÎúÑóìٰ ۚ Þõáú áóÇ ÃóÔúåóÏõ ۚ Þõáú ÅöäóøãóÇ åõæó Åöáóٰåñ æóÇÍöÏñ æóÅöäóøäöí ÈóÑöíÁñ ãöãóøÇ ÊõÔúÑößõæäó {19

Say: 'What thing is greatest in testimony?' Say: 'Allah is witness between me and you, and this Quran has been revealed to me that I may warn you thereby, and whomsoever it may reach. Do you indeed testify that there are other gods with Allah?' Say: 'I do not testify.' Say: 'He is only One God, and I am quit of that you associate.' (6:19)

Nope, those Arabs were Mushrikeen. This is what Allah says. I have posted their Shirk which is crept into many sects of Islam.

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Arabs worshipped their "intercessors".

There were 360 idols in total. 359 of these "intercessors" right beside the 360th idol called "Allah".

Repeat after me: "Shias do not worship their intercessors". "Shias do not worship their intercessors". "Shias do not worship their intercessors".

Now read here:

"2.255":    Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission?

"21.28":    He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves and for fear of Him they tremble.

Among other verses that mention intercession.

There is nothing wrong with intercession or belief in intercession. Get it?

w00t.gif

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Guest Muhamad

I had this debate in another topic page titled "questions that need to be answered" in the general topics part. We came to a dead end after no clear evidence was brought concerning calling upon anybody who is dead or martyred, the way we call upon Allah.

Intercession is clearly part of reality according to the quran. But there is no evidence that when we call for somebody who died or got martyred, that they can hear and respond. Actually the quran only points to the opposite, that we are not to call upon anyone but Allah. By calling upon i am referring to supplication, spiritual summoning, praying, calling upon in our hearts, etc. .. like dua ..

so keeping in mind that there is so much clear evidence in the quran against this, we must have very strong and clear evidence for it, in order to be sure that we are doing right. But again, so far none of the evidence is clear.

salam

There's this widely known Sunni hadith from some "sahih" book. It says that Umar bin Khattab requested the holy Prophet's (pbuh) uncle, Hz. Abbas (ra) to pray for rain, because there had been a drought for some time. So Abbas (ra) prayed and asked God to have mercy on the people of the Prophet (pbuh) and there was rain.

Now isn't that open "shirk", by your standards?

Why didn't Umar pray himself?

(Note: I bet some wahabis will pull out a hundred maggots out of this hadith's isnad.)

And for the last time, shaheed (martyrs) are NOT dead. Why you only read the parts of Quran that conform to your set of peculiarly limited beliefs. Your argument "even if dead can hear" is preposterous and against Quran. You should first repent.

In Prophet's (pbuh) life, we read a lot of hadiths about a lot of different people coming to him ASKING for a lot of different type of things - for duas, etc. And he did it for them. Why didn't he say "Don't ask from me, that is shirk. Go and pray directly on your own."

hi, it is believable that Umar asked somebody who was alive on earth at that time to do something for him (including praying for him) .. but do we have evidence that somebody asked somebody who was dead or martyred to pray for them?

is there any evidence that the martyrs can hear us on earth when we call them? is there any evidence that we are supposed to call upon the martyrs and/or anybody who is dead? There must be strong evidence to override the clear ayas in the quran condemning us calling upon any other than Allah. This should be a concern for any who fears Allah.

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Guest Muhamad

The Prophet and our Imams can intercede for us. when we ask them for help , they don't have it in their will power to help us as all their power comes from Allah so technically we are asking Allah to help us but as the Imams are infallible/sinless they are closer to Allah then we are so they can help us. An analogy for this would be if there's a box of tissues in a room and someone is right besides it, their hands are practically in the box but you're on the other side of the room. You can either go all the way to the other side of the room to get it or you can tell the person besides it to pass it to you. Intercesion is similar to this. I heard this analogy in a lecture so I may not have conveyed it to the best of my abilities.

The tissue box is not all-encompassing and all-knowing and all-hearing and absolute. Allah is both there and here. And in the quran Allah made it very clear that we are not to call upon any other than Him for help. And it is mentioned so many times that in honesty, we need to all mature and see the light! Especially when there is not a single mention that we are meant to call upon any other than Allah. And all the verses mentioning intercession do not mention that we are to call upon martyred people the way we do with Allah.

As far as i can see intercession is mentioned in context that Allah has to permit it but not more than that. And the quran does not mention that the martyred people hear us and that they have any effect on people on earth. For anybody who fears Allah this calling upon others than Allah should be a major issue. Even in the ahadeeth i have never heard of any stories of people calling upon the martyred and/or dead people.

Did anybody ever hear of any prophet, sahaba, or ahl bayt calling upon somebody who's dead or martyred for intercession? don't think so.

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Hi,

First, I would like to know your definitions of a living being and that of a dead one. Remember that martyrs are not dead according to Quran. Its written clear and plainly. Infact, calling martyrs dead is forbidden by the Quran, if you have read it. If you haven't then please do so first.

Second, I would like to know why it is not shirk if the intercessors is alive according to secular standards, and then why does it become shirk if the intercessor is free of their body, or when they're referred to as "dead" according to secular standards?

Lastly, I want you to find the definition of a living and a dead person according to God's standards. For this you may use the Quran or ahadith.

You see, it is clear that we do not share a common frame of reference. You carry secular taints and your argument does not make any sense when you deem it correct and free of shirk to "call upon" the living creature beside God. And it becomes a biased double standard when the same call is intended for a "dead" person, or even a martyr, since you see no difference between the two, completely ignoring the Quranic clarification.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

when i say salaam to you is the reply wajib?

and if it is then does the holy prophet (pbuh) reply when we say our salaams to him in our salah?

and if he (pbuh) does then is it his (pbuh) fault that we cannot hear the reply.

similarily our call for help is passed on in the more recommended way

(wasalam)

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Hi,

A martyr receives sustenance (rizq) from God and we unaware of their life since we can't see. I see no reason that a person who can eat and have pleasure is not able to move about, see or hear. We are in a classroom so seeing the unseen would be cheating and our faith in the unseen would become knowledge or ilm-ul-yaqeen. While, all muslim scholars will tell you that the "dead" have no such restrictions since there is no need for that (yes, even dead) and they can see us and hear us without us knowing if Allah permits. Its written in the Quran that the dead can even talk to the living if Allah permits. (I will intentionally not mention the occult or mysticism since that will allow you to mix in your secular mindset arguments, I intend to mention Islamic stuff only.)

Secondly, for prophets (as) remembering others in their supplications I give you the example of Adam (as). Who, after crying for 40 years, finally asked for forgiveness invoking Allah with the name written next to His on the arsh, the name of Muhammad (pbuh). And then Allah took mercy upon him.

As for sahaba, they were always asking the Prophet (pbuh) to intercede for them and make supplications. Always around him (pbuh). They should all have been instead worshipping Allah in the mosque, according to your logic, no? Spending so much time and longing so much for the Prophet (pbuh) and His blessed company, don't you find that excessive and a form of shirk?

Muhammad (pbuh) means someone who is praised or praise worthy. While we also say in salat that "alhamdulillahi rabil aalameen" (All praise is for Allah). Why don't you object to that name then as well, since its stepping on the toes of God's attributes, no? And then Ali (as), another name you should object to. Because it is also one of Allah's 99 names. We read in ayat ul kursi "wa hoo al-aliyyul adheem". Why that doesn't light up your shirk sensors, I wonder.

The truth is that you belittle Allah and no nothing about His greatness. The smallest unusual thing usurps the wrong, extremely underestimated appraisal of God and His status in your minds. Therefore its very easy to usurp.

OR

You're also another wahabi internet crusader bothering us Shia. Another one who is here just for stubbornness and creating inflammation?

I'm betting on this second part, since you have actually simply ignored all the previous explanations and answers and are now starting to ask the same questions again, essentially trying to take the debate back to square one.

Edited by Abu Dujana

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The tissue box is not all-encompassing and all-knowing and all-hearing and absolute. Allah is both there and here. And in the quran Allah made it very clear that we are not to call upon any other than Him for help. And it is mentioned so many times that in honesty, we need to all mature and see the light! Especially when there is not a single mention that we are meant to call upon any other than Allah. And all the verses mentioning intercession do not mention that we are to call upon martyred people the way we do with Allah.

As far as i can see intercession is mentioned in context that Allah has to permit it but not more than that. And the quran does not mention that the martyred people hear us and that they have any effect on people on earth. For anybody who fears Allah this calling upon others than Allah should be a major issue. Even in the ahadeeth i have never heard of any stories of people calling upon the martyred and/or dead people.

Did anybody ever hear of any prophet, sahaba, or ahl bayt calling upon somebody who's dead or martyred for intercession? don't think so.

Good point.

It's not in Sahih Ahadith but Shia would have such ahadith in their books.

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