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[MERGED] Taqleed To A Mujtahed?

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Could you point to me where the exact words "Ya Ali Madad" mentioned in hadith?

I thought the title of this thread was "Taqleed To a Mujtahed", not a thread about the source for Ya Ali Madad? Nonetheless, it's quite possible the exact wording of this phrase is not mentioned verbatim in any hadeeth but that's neither here nor there, saying it or not is an individuals choice.

Wilayat means guardianship AND Faqih means a qualified religious scholar.

Waly al-Faqih (WF) means guardianship of a qualified scholar.

There are several hadith that point to the fact that Faqih are our guardians. See Link.

In the broader sense all pious and qualified scholars are our Waley (guardians). In the specific seance that you have asked, WF is used for the head of an Islamic government.

The methodology is same as the one to find and follow the most qualified faqih.

WF is not a title. Its a position of responsibility.

All pious and qualified scholars are and were our Waley (guardians). So you can scan though history and make a list of all qualified fuqha in Shia school. They all had Wilayat over the Ummah. And anyone of them could stand up (in the right environment) to establish a society according to the teachings of Ahlul Bait (as).

Different Fuqha could assume different responsibilities and exercise their wilayat. And in case of disagreement, the verdict of the most qualified faqih (in that particular issue) should be followed.

I thought wilayat e faqih translated to Guardian Of The Constitution? Maybe I'm mistaken. Moving on, I checked the link you posted, within it none of the questions I posited have been answered? Not a problem, the link was quite informative in a general way but my ignorant brain couldn't see how the passages from Holy Quran or narrations pointed directly to taqleed or WeF.

ALI

ALI

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Nonetheless, it's quite possible the exact wording of this phrase is not mentioned verbatim in any hadeeth but that's neither here nor there, saying it or not is an individuals choice.

When we say we are Shia, we should keep our individual choices aside and become humble followers of Ahlul Bait (as). We should learn how to greet each other from Hadith e Kisa.

I thought wilayat e faqih translated to Guardian Of The Constitution? Maybe I'm mistaken. Moving on, I checked the link you posted, within it none of the questions I posited have been answered? Not a problem, the link was quite informative in a general way but my ignorant brain couldn't see how the passages from Holy Quran or narrations pointed directly to taqleed or WeF.

Quran tells us that the learned and ignorant cannot be equal. And hadith tells us that when a pious and qualified scholar has given a verdict according to the teachings of Masoomeen (as) it becomes mandatory for us to follow it. Fiqha are hujjat upon us. Imam (ATF) is hujjat upon them and Allah is hujjat upon the Imam (ATF). This is the chain of Wilayat and the basis of Taqlid and WF.

More details could be read in the following link: My link

WS

Edited by Orion

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(bismillah)

(salam)

When we say we are Shia, we should keep our individual choices aside and become humble followers of Ahlul Bait (as). We should learn how to greet each other from Hadith e Kisa.

Quran tells us that the learned and ignorant cannot be equal. And hadith tells us that when a pious and qualified scholar has given a verdict according to the teachings of Masoomeen (as) it becomes mandatory for us to follow it. Fiqha are hujjat upon us. Imam (ATF) is hujjat upon them and Allah is hujjat upon the Imam (ATF). This is the chain of Wilayat and the basis of Taqlid and WF.

More details could be read in the following link: My link

WS

I greeted with Salam Alaykum first before adding Ya Ali Madad but whatever, thanks for your advice on this .

I don't dispute what you write regards Holy Quran differentiating between learned and ignorant however the rest of it (narrations supporting the concept of wiliayaat e faqih) I'm not convinced on at all and your link points me to an ayatollah supporting the case for ... ayatollahs.

If anyone else can answer my questions I would be much obliged.

ALI

Edited by Kismet110

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your link points me to an ayatollah supporting the case for ... ayatollahs.

^^ Strange and very biased statement.

In the real world, Hindus support Hindu beliefs and Muslims support Muslim beliefs. By your logic, rather than appointing Muslim scholars we should hire Christian or Hindu individuals to lead our centers and address our gatherings. :unsure:

If you want to learn about Taqlid or WF you will have to read what Usooli scholars (Ayatullahs) have to say about it. Simply because they are the ones who believe in it.

Do you expect pseudo-Akbaris to come out and support Taqlid or WF??? If you rely on them all you are gonna hear is lies, disrespect and false accusations.

Edited by Orion

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I respect each ayatullah,but this taqleed is sunni concept i think. Does ayatullah sistani says ever to do his taqleed further quran 17:15,35:18,2:166 doesnt encourage to do taqleed. I m not akhbari,i m converted shia so i use my brain. further unlike akhbari i believe quran is complete,regarding saying imam khomeni somebody say not to use imam, i m indian we use huzur for prophet(s) and for any person we respect that doesnt mean everyone is prophet?

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^^ Strange and very biased statement.

In the real world, Hindus support Hindu beliefs and Muslims support Muslim beliefs. By your logic, rather than appointing Muslim scholars we should hire Christian or Hindu individuals to lead our centers and address our gatherings. :unsure:

If you want to learn about Taqlid or WF you will have to read what Usooli scholars (Ayatullahs) have to say about it. Simply because they are the ones who believe in it.

Do you expect pseudo-Akbaris to come out and support Taqlid or WF??? If you rely on them all you are gonna hear is lies, disrespect and false accusations.

It's not strange or biased and I have no idea why you bought Hindus or Christians into it?

An intelligent, honest expert could provide information on a subject without necessarily being an adherent of the subject in point - why would an ayatollah say anything but WeF/Taqleed = GOOD, non-Taqleed = BAD?

Were the classical Shia scholars who were Akhbari before the Usoolis beat them (militarily) 300 hundred or so years ago indulging in "lies, disrespect & false accusations" or just modern day 'pseudo-Akhbaris' who indulge?

I find your tone a little disrespectful and condescending. I asked some (imo) pertinent questions and you seem to have taken it quite personally. If you're pro-Usooli/Taqleed/WeF then good for you, I have zero problem with that but please don't label everyone who questions these concepts (or wants to know more about them) in a negative light.

May Allah (SWT) forgive me for my mistakes and sins.

ALI

Edited by Kismet110

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^^^

I like your reply, you write how you feel & more power to that.

No doubt there are great, pious scholars but amongst them there are chancers & usurpers too; amazingly modern-day Shia'h happily believe the majority of Muslims who lived amongst the Noor of Nabi Paak (pbuh) could apostate yet everyone today is beyond reproach!

ALI

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^^^

And lana'at on those marja amongst the scholars who have appropriated titles reserved for Masumeen (as) as well as the people who blindly send lana'at on anyone who dare question the words & acts of non-Masoom (political) leaders....

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And lana'at on those marja amongst the scholars who have appropriated titles reserved for Masumeen (as)

^^ Which "title" is reserved for Masumeen (as) that marja have used.

"....Produce your proof if you are truthful." (Quran 2:111)

:unsure:

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Let's start with a couple to get things rolling insha'Allah:

Ayatollah (sign of Allah) - please show where, beyond the last couple of centuries or so, this title was used by any scholar?

Wilayat e Faqih (Guardian of the Constitution) - Really? On who's authority? Again, show where the concept of WeF was ever bestowed upon or claimed by any classical scholars.

We'll work from here insha'Allah & try to remain within the confines of good akhlaq & dignity if this is possible.

May Allah (swt) forgive my sins & mistakes.

ALI

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Let's start with a couple to get things rolling insha'Allah:

Ayatollah (sign of Allah) - please show where, beyond the last couple of centuries or so, this title was used by any scholar?

Wilayat e Faqih (Guardian of the Constitution) - Really? On who's authority? Again, show where the concept of WeF was ever bestowed upon or claimed by any classical scholars.

We'll work from here insha'Allah & try to remain within the confines of good akhlaq & dignity if this is possible.

May Allah (swt) forgive my sins & mistakes.

ALI

(bismillah)

(salam)

My dear brother Kismet110,

You had claimed that Marja amongst the scholars have appropriated titles reserved for Masumeen(AS). What are those titles and where have they been reserved for Masoomeen (as). Please provide evidence from Quran and Hadith (without any personal comment or interpretation).

Also where does it prohibit us from calling anyone with any new titles. For example where does it say that we can call someone "Maulana" and not "Minister" or "Cleric"? Again, provide evidence from Quran and Hadith.

Furthermore, I have already answered regarding Wilayat e Faqih in my earlier post # 140 See Link.

Again, Wilayat al Faqih simply means Guardianship of the Jurist. All Fuqha (scholars, jusrists), old and new, issue fatwas based on the Wilayat (guardianship, authority) they have. Without any such authority how would they issue fatwas and why would people follow them?

So in that respect when Imam Ali (as), appointed Malik al-Ashtar governor of Egypt and gave him authority on what bases did he execute that authority? Similarly when our Holy Imams instructed Fuqha of their era to issue fatwas, what authority did these scholars have and under what concept. And all through history our scholars have been issuing fatwas, under what authority?

All Imam Khoemini (AR) did was to remind scholars about their responsibility under Wilayat al Faqih. He reminded them that their responsibility is not limited to issuing fatwas and solving disputes but includes the establishment of a society based on the teachings of Quran and teachings of Ahlul Bait (as). He reminded them that the commands of Allah written in Quran and hadith books are not limited to issues like Waduh, Ghusl, Namaz, fasting, Janabat and mensturation but also includes governance and running of an Islamic state, Islamic tax system, judicial system, punishments, etc.

You should read the book Wilayat al-Faqih by Imam Khomeini (AR) himself. Here is the link: Click Here.

And if something is not clear, feel free to ask.

(BTW, about this 110 in your alias..... have this ever been used by Shia beyond the last few centuries. Did any classical scholars of the past endorsed it. Any mention in Shia hadith)

WS

Lana't on all those who disrespect and abuse Marjas.

Edited by Orion

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(bismillah)

(salam)

My dear brother Kismet110

Walaykum Salaam & Ya Ali Madad

My darling Orion

You had claimed that Marja amongst the scholars have appropriated titles reserved for Masumeen(AS). What are those titles and where have they been reserved for Masoomeen (as). Please provide evidence from Quran and Hadith (without any personal comment or interpretation).

I think you're being a little cute here. We both know Our Holy Imams (as) weren't explicitly mentioned in Holy Quran so why insist I provide you evidence (and that without comment or interpretation) for their titles? I asked you the same about taqleed and WeF; you quoted generally from Holy Quran and hadeeth with comments and interpretation so why harsher criteria for me?

Nonetheless, as far as I'm aware I don't believe ANY individual from the ghaybat of Our Glorious 12th (as) up until very recently claimed to be Wilayaat e Faqih. Surely the only Guardian of the Constitution is our 12th Imam (as) and no one else? Now please don't try to twist and turn this simple fact. If you know of any scholar who proclaimed to be WeF more than 50 years ago or where this exact phrase/concept is referenced in any of the classical Shi'ah works then point me to it!

Al-Hujjah (the Proof [of Allah's justice) is a title of Our Glorious 12th (as). Now tell me, where did the mullahs get the temerity to create the title Hujjat al Islam? Why would a non-Masoom scholar be the "Proof of Islam"?

Also where does it prohibit us from calling anyone with any new titles. For example where does it say that we can call someone "Maulana" and not "Minister" or "Cleric"? Again, provide evidence from Quran and Hadith.

No one's complaining about generic titles, if you want to call a Maulana a Cleric or Minister then that's fine but the Holy Quran states anyone can be called ayatollah:

"On the earth are signs (Ayat) for those of assured Faith,

As also in your own selves: Will ye not then see?"

(Holy Quran 51:20-21)

Now you tell me, when the Glorious Word of Allah (SWT) states anyone can be called ayatollah is this true today? Ayatollah is now reserved for high-ranking scholars in the theological (Usooli) system only. I will happily concede I'm mistaken if you start signing off your name as Ayatollah Orion Sahib or similar and all the other Usoolis do likewise as per the Quran allows.

Furthermore, I have already answered regarding Wilayat e Faqih in my earlier post # 140 See Link.

Already read this and far from convincing but thanks anway.

Again, Wilayat al Faqih simply means Guardianship of the Jurist. All Fuqha (scholars, jusrists), old and new, issue fatwas based on the Wilayat (guardianship, authority) they have. Without any such authority how would they issue fatwas and why would people follow them?

So in that respect when Imam Ali (as), appointed Malik al-Ashtar governor of Egypt and gave him authority on what bases did he execute that authority? Similarly when our Holy Imams instructed Fuqha of their era to issue fatwas, what authority did these scholars have and under what concept. And all through history our scholars have been issuing fatwas, under what authority?

All Imam Khoemini (AR) did was to remind scholars about their responsibility under Wilayat al Faqih. He reminded them that their responsibility is not limited to issuing fatwas and solving disputes but includes the establishment of a society based on the teachings of Quran and teachings of Ahlul Bait (as). He reminded them that the commands of Allah written in Quran and hadith books are not limited to issues like Waduh, Ghusl, Namaz, fasting, Janabat and mensturation but also includes governance and running of an Islamic state, Islamic tax system, judicial system, punishments, etc.

Please don't muddy the waters by mentioning Maula Ali (as) in the same context as modern-day scholars. Imam (as) was the Wilayaat and he passed on knowledge to persons working for him; that's not anything to do same as taqleed or WeF or appropriation of honorific titles.

Khomeini sahib didn't just remind scholars about their duties; he instigated a command system in Iran based on the power of the mullah, a theocracy that has no precedence in Imamiyah history.

Neither Nabi Paak (pbuh) or Maula Ali (as) had governments based on theocratic rule; they had scholars and judges to educate people and promulgate Sharia but they weren't the rulers, not was taqleed to them compulsory nor did they have any authority beyond education and judgement when required.

You should read the book Wilayat al-Faqih by Imam Khomeini (AR) himself. Here is the link: Click Here.

Thank you, will take a look.

And if something is not clear, feel free to ask.

Again, thank you.

(BTW, about this 110 in your alias..... have this ever been used by Shia beyond the last few centuries. Did any classical scholars of the past endorsed it. Any mention in Shia hadith)

The 110 in my alias is not the subject for discussion. It means everything and nothing and is not subject to endorsement or otherwise of classic or modern scholars; I'm not insisting anyone has to do taqleed to it.

Lana't on all those who disrespect and abuse Marjas.

And lana'at on all those who disrespect or abuse people that question the authority and actions of non-Masoom (poitical) leaders.

May Allah (SWT) forgive my sins and mistakes.

ALI

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salam,

Just wanted to share something regarding Numbers.

http://www.*******.org/kalam/radd-ala-s-sufiyya/nobility-of-the-number-twelve

^^^^THAT is just a discussion but i have personally read a hadees from Imam Sadiq a.s. on this issue, which can be found in al Mahajjah by Sheikh Hashim al Bahrani regarding Alphabets that have been given Numbers by Imams a.s. themselves.

And that the word Ali is equal to 110 in terms of numbers, Mohammad is 92 and Bismillah hir rahman nir raheem is 786.

Ya Ali Madad

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The fundamental difference between Islamic government, on the one hand, and constitutional monarchies and republics, on the other, is this: whereas the representatives of the people or the monarch in such regimes engage in legislation, in Islam the legislative power and competence to establish laws belongs exclusively to God Almighty. The Sacred Legislator of Islam is the sole legislative power. No one has the right to legislate and no law may be executed except the law of the Divine Legislator. It is for this reason that in an Islamic government, a simple planning body takes the place of the legislative assembly that is one of the three branches of government. This body draws up programs for the different ministries in the light of the ordinances of Islam and thereby determines how public services are to be provided across the country.

Islamic Government: Governance of the Jurist, by ayatollah khomeini, section 3: form of islamic government

http://www.al-islam.org/islamicgovernment/

someone mind telling me how the bits in red justify the "hijab police" or "crimes against chastity"?

the WF cant even follow its own rulings, never mind the rulings of Allah *rolls eyes*

post made by: ayatollah hujjatul islam maula dha mallang, rahbar.

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^^^

someone mind telling me how the bits in red justify the "hijab police" or "crimes against chastity"?

30 years ago we only would have been levelling accusations like this at the literalist Najdi creed occupying the Holy Lands. Did someone at the back say control?

post made by: ayatollah hujjatul islam maula dha mallang, rahbar.

LOL now steady on bro MDM, talk like this can only lead to one of two outcomes; you'll be castigated/abused/banned by the Usooli Police or people will start doing your taqleed.

ALI

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30 years ago we only would have been levelling accusations like this at the literalist Najdi creed occupying the Holy Lands. Did someone at the back say control?

all jokes aside bro, its a very serious point.

beardy angry men in afghanistan right now enforce their views on the population by intimidation and repressive measures (such as whipping men who dont have beards)

beardy angry men in iran right now enforce their views on the population by intimidation and repressive measures (such as the hijab police and crimes such as "crimes against chastity")

does whatever iran does suddenly become legitimate and acceptable because they are shia and the taleban are wahabbi?

i say no - wrong is wrong no matter who does it. many members here will say its only wrong if non shias do it.

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all jokes aside bro, its a very serious point.

beardy angry men in afghanistan right now enforce their views on the population by intimidation and repressive measures (such as whipping men who dont have beards)

beardy angry men in iran right now enforce their views on the population by intimidation and repressive measures (such as the hijab police and crimes such as "crimes against chastity")

does whatever iran does suddenly become legitimate and acceptable because they are shia and the taleban are wahabbi?

i say no - wrong is wrong no matter who does it. many members here will say its only wrong if non shias do it.

Agree it's serious, something the Taqleed/WeF Brigade either don't see or do but pretend it isn't happening. Give it enough time & maybe whole generations of Shi'ahs believe (mazhallah) repression by force is the way of the Ahlulbayt (as) because "Ayatollah abc says it's permissible" or "hujjat al Islam xyz decrees it acceptable" - in reality all they're doing is legitimising political rule by force.

Strange how Press TV/Ahlulbayt TV feature LOTS on the oppression/uprisings in Bahrain, Yemen et al but hardly a peep about Syria? Seems like political assocations override the Hussaini (as) creed of Justice when it suits....

ALI

Edited by Kismet110

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the thing is, its not the states role to enforce their will on people. it was certainly not the case in the times of the imams (such as imam ali (as) during his caliphate) to punish or beat or arrest anyone who did not follow their faith exactly as they wanted.

the quran says "invite" others to islam with kind words. does this repression follow or contradict the quran?

i wouldnt even mind right, because after all as a sovereign state the people have the right to live as they choose, but what annoys me is ayatollah khomeini *specifically* states that only the divine laws are to be followed.

exactly as you say bro - the shia command choose what laws they follow and what laws they ignore as it suits them. and the common shia will blindly accept this and attack anyone who questions it.

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I think you're being a little cute here. We both know Our Holy Imams (as) weren't explicitly mentioned in Holy Quran so why insist I provide you evidence (and that without comment or interpretation) for their titles?

The concept of Imamat is clearly mentioned in Quran.

I asked you the same about taqleed and WeF; you quoted generally from Holy Quran and hadeeth with comments and interpretation so why harsher criteria for me?

The hadith about taqleed and WeF are very clear and need no interpretation.

Nonetheless, as far as I'm aware I don't believe ANY individual from the ghaybat of Our Glorious 12th as.gif up until very recently claimed to be Wilayaat e Faqih. Surely the only Guardian of the Constitution is our 12th Imam as.gif and no one else? Now please don't try to twist and turn this simple fact. If you know of any scholar who proclaimed to be WeF more than 50 years ago or where this exact phrase/concept is referenced in any of the classical Shi'ah works then point me to it!

What constitution are you talking about? There is our deen based on Quran and Hadith.

As I have explained to you multiple times, All pious and qualified scholars (fuqha) of our time and that of the past had Wilayat (authority). There is no confusion about this.

Al-Hujjah (the Proof [of Allah's justice) is a title of Our Glorious 12th as.gif. Now tell me, where did the mullahs get the temerity to create the title Hujjat al Islam? Why would a non-Masoom scholar be the "Proof of Islam"?

Allah has a name Al-Rehman. And there are many people walking arround called Abdul Rehman. That does not mean they have attained the title of Allah.

Al-Hujjah means The Proof. That is very different from Hujjat al Islam.

The word Proof (Hujjat) is commonly used during discussions.

No one's complaining about generic titles, if you want to call a Maulana a Cleric or Minister then that's fine but the Holy Quran states anyone can be called ayatollah:

"On the earth are signs (Ayat) for those of assured Faith,

As also in your own selves: Will ye not then see?"

(Holy Quran 51:20-21)

Now you tell me, when the Glorious Word of Allah (SWT) states anyone can be called ayatollah is this true today? Ayatollah is now reserved for high-ranking scholars in the theological (Usooli) system only. I will happily concede I'm mistaken if you start signing off your name as Ayatollah Orion Sahib or similar and all the other Usoolis do likewise as per the Quran allows.

Exactly my point. Anything could be called Ayatullah not just scholars. Sun, Moon, stars are all Ayatullah,

Please don't muddy the waters by mentioning Maula Ali as.gif in the same context as modern-day scholars. Imam as.gifwas the Wilayaat and he passed on knowledge to persons working for him; that's not anything to do same as taqleed or WeF or appropriation of honorific titles.

The same Wilayat is needed today to carry out the same functions.

Khomeini sahib didn't just remind scholars about their duties; he instigated a command system in Iran based on the power of the mullah, a theocracy that has no precedence in Imamiyah history.

What was written in theory, he implemented it in practice.

Neither Nabi Paak pbuh.gif or Maula Ali as.gif had governments based on theocratic rule; they had scholars and judges to educate people and promulgate Sharia but they weren't the rulers, not was taqleed to them compulsory nor did they have any authority beyond education and judgement when required.

Actually Prophet (S) and Maula Ali (A) implemented Shara. And that included punishing people who broke Islamic law.

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^^^

Salaam Alaykum & Ya Ali Madad

Orion, I'm sure you're a very nice person but your answers to my questions have left me unconvinced or been at a tangent.

I'm not unreasonable, far from it; for some time I was convinced (duped?) into blindly following a line but recently I've been questioning whether that line is correct. The (limited) research I've done has left me feeling uncomfortable with the stance I had previously.

If I can learn more (can't we all?) then that would be great but there are some concepts I no longer subscribe to as they just don't add up for me; even worse, they actually smell of control and suppression rather than natural justice and freedom.

ALI

Edited by Kismet110

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Kismet, take it from one who's been there, many, many times. You are wasting your time. Frankly _I_ could argue for wilayat al-faqih, taqlid and so on much better than what you'll generally get in these types of discussions, and I don't even believe in it.

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^^^

Salaam Alaykum & Ya Ali Madad

Orion, I'm sure you're a very nice person but your answers to my questions have left me unconvinced or been at a tangent.

I'm not unreasonable, far from it; for some time I was convinced (duped?) into blindly following a line but recently I've been questioning whether that line is correct. The (limited) research I've done has left me feeling uncomfortable with the stance I had previously.

If I can learn more (can't we all?) then that would be great but there are some concepts I no longer subscribe to as they just don't add up for me; even worse, they actually smell of control and suppression rather than natural justice and freedom.

ALI

Brother Ali,

Walekum as Salam and Maula Ali (as) Madad,

Guidance comes from Allah. Maybe someday you will see the light. In the mean time keep doing good and keep away from sins.

Wishing you all the best.

WS

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^^^

Bro macisaac, I'm sure you could; your postings are always worth reading & stimulate reflection.

I was (vainly) hoping for insight but feel my chances are slim to none so I'll desist.

ALI

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Ya Ali Madad!

For the Usulis, the Love of Masoomeen (as) has been replaced with the love for their Mujtaheds (The Usulis have replaced the Wilayat-e-Ali Amirulmomeneen with wilayat-e-faqhi). This is a desease. The 12th Imam (atf) is still guiding his true shias through inspiration and illumination reaching the Momenuns' heart. The brighter the GLOW in the momens heart, the closer he or she is to our Beloved Ahlulbayt (as). The 12th Imam (atf) is only physically in Ghaybat (hidden, occultation), however our Beloved 12th Imam (atf) is ever present SPIRITUALLY within the heart (qalb) of a True Shia in the form of a very bright and LUMINOUS Light (Noor). This Noor guides the momenun in the darkness (zulmat) of this world (donya). Hence, a true Shia need not do blind taqleed (imitation) to a fallible man called a mujtahed. Those who do taqleed to a mujtahed (usoolis) only prove the fact that they have no Nur (light) in their heart from our Masoomeen, and hence must fallow one of their own fallible companions who also have no Nur in their heart (qalb).

Its as simple as that! Ya Ali Madad

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Peer Maula Ali (as) Madad my dearest NoorofMasoomeen.

You've resuscitated a thread that seemed to have expired 2+ months ago so I feel compelled to welcome you with a beautiful narration:

He has narrated from Hisham ibn Salim from Habib al-Sajistani from abu Ja'far, recipient of Divine Supreme Covenant, who has said the following:

"Allah the most Holy, the most High has said 'I will cause to suffer punishment all those (citizens) who live a religious life in Islam with belief and acknowledgment of the Guardianship of the unjust 'A'immah (leaders without Divine Authority) who do not possess authority from Allah even though such followers are apparently virtuous and pious in their deeds.

I will forgive all those (citizens) who live a religious life in Islam with belief in and acknowledgement of the Guardianship of an Imam (as) who is just in his dealings and possesses authority from Allah even though such followers in their dealings are unjust sinners.'"

Al Kafi Chapter 86 Hadeeth 966

On the Day Of Reckoning I'll be fearful for my sins but thanks be to Allah (swt) most High usurpation of rights of Ahlulbayt (as) will insha'Allah not be amongst them.

ALI

Edited by Kismet110

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Kismet, take it from one who's been there, many, many times. You are wasting your time. Frankly _I_ could argue for wilayat al-faqih, taqlid and so on much better than what you'll generally get in these types of discussions, and I don't even believe in it.

You're like, so cool.

Dearest brother Orion:

As always, I enjoyed reading your posts and made great use of them. I especially like your patience, akhlaq, and clear, simple but air-tight reasoning. Mashallah, you have proven again and again that you are a true follower of the rightful lieutenant of the Awaited Imam (AJ), Seyyed Ali Khamenei (HA).

If I may, I will add a few general points.

If we look at the history of ideology, and specifically, the history of religion, we note that there is always an intra-ideological debate centered around the basic question: "Who is the rightful flag-bearer of this ideology?" This is the case in every ideology and every religion; how else could you explain the universal phenomenon of sectarianism?

Likewise, in every ideology there have been currents that take on a "purist" aesthetic. Meaning, they try to convince others (as well as themselves) that they are cleansing the ideology of its impurities by "going back to the original sources."

Now... who are these purists?

Let's use a non-Shia example, so that the matter is not quite as emotional. Take a look at American political discourse. The discourse is often centered around the question of "What would the founding fathers want?" (the founding fathers meaning George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin and the other leaders of the American revolution). There is a cult of personality surrounding these individuals, and so every policy in the country must be justified through referring to them.

Now... let's imagine Joe American watching President X give a speech on TV and deciding that he doesn't want to kowtow to X's authority. In what way can he rebel while presenting his rebellion in the most legitimate and noble fashion possible? He will say "President X is deviating the country from the path outlined by the founding fathers."

And that is an example of the "purist" current.

So... what are the motivations of the purist current? Of course, God knows best. And none of us can claim to know what goes on in the heads of others, but through a bit of psychoanalysis we can reach conclusions that are -- beyond reasonable doubt -- accurate.

Let's look at our Shia ummah. What is the situation in the ummah today? We have a highly centralized leadership; both for fiqh and for politics. Our leaders are immensely popular and millions of Shias love them as dearly as they love their own fathers. So we notice two important things here: one, the very personal nature of the leadership and the importance attached to certain individuals; and two, the expansive support and love that the people have for these leaders.

A purist current can pop up anywhere, but the above conditions are particularly ripe for it, because it creates the psychological groundwork. What, then, in the psychology of the purists, causes them to rebel? Look at these two elements!

1) Widespread people's support for leadership. This triggers their contrarian instinct. They think: "Psssh, look at all these sheep blindly following the party line. Well I'm better than that. I can think for myself. Let the sheep do what they want; I don't answer to those false authorities they have created for themselves. I follow only the Ma'sumeen (as)."

2) Personal nature of leadership and personal relationship between followers and leaders. This triggers their jealousy instinct. They think "Psssh, these so-called scholars are nothing. The way people worship them is disgusting; they are not even infallible! Well, I can think for myself; I don't need to worship a non-ma'sum like all those SHEEP. How dare they give so-and-so the title of 'Imam?' So-and-so isn't even a mujtahid!" etc...

Once these instincts are triggered inside of him, it becomes very easy for our purist to then reject this authority, this paradigm, and this ummah and "return to the original sources."

What is interesting to note here: the purists' ideology is entirely dependent. Meaning, if there was no mainstream ideology to react against and rebel against, they would never have gone down this path. They only choose this path because of the psychological need within them. What are these psychological needs?

1) Ego. They need to feel superior. It is hard to feel superior when following a mainstream line, and even harder to feel superior when that mainstream line involves subservience to an authority, so they must go against the grain.

2) Self-validation. This is connected with #1. It is the product of #1 that creates #2. They define themselves through their opposition. It's kind of like MKO; throughout the entire course of the revolution, they were uncompromising in their fight against the Pahlavi monarchy, but can their struggle be considered noble considering their motivations? In retrospect, we know that they were opposed to any authority, no matter its nature.

3) "Crashing the party." They see other people following a path with utmost devotion and faith. They themselves cannot be a part of this, due to their specific psychological disposition, so they try to do the next best thing: ruin it for people who do not share their cynicism and general unpleasantness.

These are just some of the psychological needs which purist rebellion serves. I am sure there are more, but I will leave it to someone more deserving and more learned to list and analyze them.

Another point which needs mentioning, on the subject of authority: there is no such thing as obeying an authority who is not alive. When someone is dead, that gives every dirtbag an equal opportunity to claim him as his own and mold the dead personality's character in his own image. One cannot reject a living authority simply because he claims to be following a dead authority, especially if the living authority himself is attempting to implement the ideals of the said dead authority.

So we must get this idea out of our heads that the purists are rejecting the authority of Living Person X in favor of the authority of Dead Person Y. This affords far too much legitimacy to the purists. In fact, the purists are rejecting the very idea of authority. Their psychological motivations will show this: they are interested in delegitimizing authority, not in obeying it.

We must ignore the infallibility card that they like to play, because this is of no meaning. The logic of this childish argument can go on infinitely, until one rejects all human authorities (which was exactly what the rejecters of prophecy used to do). The authority of any person -- fallible or infallible -- is nonexistent in the real sense. All true authority belongs to God. Any human authority -- and, likewise, any traits which these human beings possess (no matter how lofty) -- are merely in place out of necessity. Their authority is only on behalf of Allah swt.

(O David! We did indeed make thee a vicegerent on earth.) [surah Sad, 38:26]

(Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth.") [surat al-Baqarah, 2:30]

The infallibility loophole is only a cover that allows Joe Anti-social to legitimize his rebellion, and to package his rebellion as not a rebellion at all but as a purer manifestation of religion.

The difference between a hippie and an anti-social purist is that hippies don't have all the strange, unhealthy psychological needs.

Ya Ali

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Baradar Jackson,

    

     You are under the false assumption that our 12th Imam (atf) is dead. If that was the case, then lets fallow your newest Imams like Khomeini and Khamenai. What number Imams would they be then? 103rd and 104th?? You are sounding more like a Zaidi or Ismaili who believe that previous  Imams are dead and new ones are continueing to be born...

       There is a very deep and esoteric (Batin) reason why we the True Shias stopp at the number 12. It is because our Beloved 12 th Imam is ever present and has always been present. This is why one of His titles is Imam-e-Zaman (Imam of the Age). Normal human beings pass away Age after Age; however, our Beloved 12th Imam (atf) has, is, and will always be present in every Age. Hence, we do not need or ever need a so called Imam Khomeini or so called Wilayat-e-Faqih Khamenai (Our Beloved Masoomeen have warned us of false leaders like these many many times in the book Al-Kafi narrated by Kaylani).

Dear Baradar Jackson, I pray that Allah through our Beloved Masoomeen increase your Iman and Orions Iman so that you all do not get trapped anymore in worshipping mortal human beings called mujtaheds and raise you up from your blindness in taqleed and your consumption of ignorance into the Truth (HAQQ) of the matter that the 14 Masooms never die and are always present in the form of NUR, guiding the true Shia and protecting them from false Imams (and Faqhis who try to claim the Wilayat for themselves) . Here is a Famous Hadith repeated by all our Beloved Imams, " He or She who dies without gaining the MARIFAT (Recognition) of the Imam of the Age, will surely die the death of a Kufr". This hadith did not state gaining the marifat of the Mujtahed of the Age or the Wilayat-e- Faqhi of the Age. This is a warning to all the Usoolis, that you better gain the Marifat of the True and only Imam and WALI which is Imam Mahdi al-Qaim and stop wasting your life giving your hands to mere mortals, thinking that they can save you from the fire.Salvation will only come to those who hold on to the Ark of our Beloved Ahlulbayt. Everyone else will drown in the sea of ignorance (zulm). Ya Ali Madad!

Edited by NoorofMasoomeen

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Baradar Jackson,

You are under the false assumption that our 12th Imam (atf) is dead. If that was the case, then lets fallow your newest Imams like Khomeini and Khamenai. What number Imams would they be then? 103rd and 104th?? You are sounding more like a Zaidi or Ismaili who believe that previous Imams are dead and new ones are continueing to be born...

There is a very deep and esoteric (Batin) reason why we the True Shias stopp at the number 12. It is because our Beloved 12 th Imam is ever present and has always been present. This is why one of His titles is Imam-e-Zaman (Imam of the Age). Normal human beings pass away Age after Age; however, our Beloved 12th Imam (atf) has, is, and will always be present in every Age. Hence, we do not need or ever need a so called Imam Khomeini or so called Wilayat-e-Faqih Khamenai (Our Beloved Masoomeen have warned us of false leaders like these many many times in the book Al-Kafi narrated by Kaylani).

Dear Baradar Jackson, I pray that Allah through our Beloved Masoomeen increase your Iman and Orions Iman so that you all do not get trapped anymore in worshipping mortal human beings called mujtaheds and raise you up from your blindness in taqleed and your consumption of ignorance into the Truth (HAQQ) of the matter that the 14 Masooms never die and are always present in the form of NUR, guiding the true Shia and protecting them from false Imams (and Faqhis who try to claim the Wilayat for themselves) . Here is a Famous Hadith repeated by all our Beloved Imams, " He or She who dies without gaining the MARIFAT (Recognition) of the Imam of the Age, will surely die the death of a Kufr". This hadith did not state gaining the marifat of the Mujtahed of the Age or the Wilayat-e- Faqhi of the Age. This is a warning to all the Usoolis, that you better gain the Marifat of the True and only Imam and WALI which is Imam Mahdi al-Qaim and stop wasting your life giving your hands to mere mortals, thinking that they can save you from the fire.Salvation will only come to those who hold on to the Ark of our Beloved Ahlulbayt. Everyone else will drown in the sea of ignorance (zulm). Ya Ali Madad!

Let's get caught into semantics then.

I simply said "dead" without qualifying it because I didn't think anybody would be dense enough to bring up that Imam Mahdi was still alive.

What matter is that, when you cannot communicate with him?

He's alive; does that mean you can listen to his Friday prayer khutbah this week?

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What matter is that, when you cannot communicate with him?

Imam Jafar (asws) has narrated;

"We consider a man to be truly wise only when he is inspired by supresensable voices' (La na'uddu l-faqih faqihan hatta yakuna muhaddathan) (al-Kashshi Rijal p.9)

and Imam al- Ridha (asws) has stated, " I should like each faithful believer to become one who is inspired by suprasensable voices" (Inni uhibbu an yakuna l'-momin

muhaddith) (Maani al-akhbar page 172)

(note; in both cases the word muhaddath is explained as a synonym of mufahham - he to whom understanding from "On-High" is given- and thus reading the word

muhaddath as narrator of hadith or traditionalist is not possible)

The vision of Imam-e-Zaman may take many forms: dreams, in the awakened state, or in the world of the soul, completely independent of the believer's will and practice, a meeting or encounter in the physical world with the hidden Imam and so forth. There are standard features of these encounters by Momenun with the Mahdi: a special state of consciousness; the transformation of the envirement; a supernatural light; the transmission of a secret (sirr) and so forth.

It i reported of Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (as) who stated, " When a follower loves us [the Imams], makes progress in his loyal friendship (walaya) for us and dedicates himself to know us, there is not a question that he poses for which we do not inspire an answer in his heart."

Ya Ali Madad!

Edited by NoorofMasoomeen

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Imam Jafar (asws) has narrated;

"We consider a man to be truly wise only when he is inspired by supresensable voices' (La na'uddu l-faqih faqihan hatta yakuna muhaddathan) (al-Kashshi Rijal p.9)

and Imam al- Ridha (asws) has stated, " I should like each faithful believer to become one who is inspired by suprasensable voices" (Inni uhibbu an yakuna l'-momin

muhaddith) (Maani al-akhbar page 172)

(note; in both cases the word muhaddath is explained as a synonym of mufahham - he to whom understanding from "On-High" is given- and thus reading the word

muhaddath as narrator of hadith or traditionalist is not possible)

The vision of Imam-e-Zaman may take many forms: dreams, in the awakened state, or in the world of the soul, completely independent of the believer's will and practice, a meeting or encounter in the physical world with the hidden Imam and so forth. There are standard features of these encounters by Momenun with the Mahdi: a special state of consciousness; the transformation of the envirement; a supernatural light; the transmission of a secret (sirr) and so forth.

It i reported of Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (as) who stated, " When a follower loves us [the Imams], makes progress in his loyal friendship (walaya) for us and dedicates himself to know us, there is not a question that he poses for which we do not inspire an answer in his heart."

Ya Ali Madad!

So that's your answer? We should hope that Imam Mahdi guides us in dreams?

What if we don't see any dreams of him? And even if we are fortunate enough to see him in a dream, what if dreams are not a sufficient source for guidance?

I honestly can't see how you can think that you can accept the leadership of Imam Mahdi with your heart, when he is absent. How could you even tell if what you felt in your heart was truly devotion to Imam Mahdi? How do you tell this from your selfish desires? He is not present for you to weight your heart against his words/actions.

What if the feelings in my heart -- which I interpret as commands from the Imam -- tell me to do completely nonsensical and irrational and un-Islamic things? What if other people's feelings -- which they also interpret as commands from the Imam -- conflict with my own?

This is a completely incoherent idea. Either these ahadith are inauthentic, or you are projecting nonsensical views on them.

Edited by baradar_jackson

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Imam Jafar (asws) has narrated;

"We consider a man to be truly wise only when he is inspired by supresensable voices' (La na'uddu l-faqih faqihan hatta yakuna muhaddathan) (al-Kashshi Rijal p.9)

and Imam al- Ridha (asws) has stated, " I should like each faithful believer to become one who is inspired by suprasensable voices" (Inni uhibbu an yakuna l'-momin muhaddith) (Maani al-akhbar page 172)

This is not an accurate translation!

It actually means a Muhadith (as a Narrator of the traditions).

Look at the context, do not put words in their mouths.

Edited by Islamic Salvation

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I honestly can't see how you can think that you can accept the leadership of Imam Mahdi with your heart, when he is absent. How could you even tell if what you felt in your heart was truly devotion to Imam Mahdi? How do you tell this from your selfish desires? He is not present for you to weight your heart against his words/actions.

What if the feelings in my heart -- which I interpret as commands from the Imam -- tell me to do completely nonsensical and irrational and un-Islamic things? What if other people's feelings -- which they also interpret as commands from the Imam -- conflict with my own?

This is a completely incoherent idea. Either these ahadith are inauthentic, or you are projecting nonsensical views on them.

The 5th Imam Muhammad al-Baqir (as) has said, "Allah created the bodies of Muhammad and his Family [i.e. Fatima and the 12 Imams] from the Clay of Illiyyin, and He created their spirits and hearts from a Clay located above the Illiyyin, He created the bodies of our faithful (momenun) as well as those of the prophets from a Clay found beneath the Illyyin, while he created their spirits and their hearts from the Clay of the Illiyyin itself. This is why the hearts of our faithful momenun come from the bodies of the Family of Muhammad (Ahlulbayt). Likewise, Allah created the spirits and hearts of the enemy of the Family of the Prophet from the Clay of the Sijjin, and the bodies of the enemies from a clay located below the Sijjin.”

From the Hadith above, we see that the heart of a momen is made from the same substance (Clay) as the bodies of the 12 Imams (Illyyin). It is due to this, that a Momens heart is the home of our Beloved Ahlulbayt in general, and our Beloved 12th Imam in particular.

Baradar Jackson,

The 12th Imam is only absent (better yet, hidden or in occultation) from his enemies and the hearts of his enemies. However the 12th Imam is always present in the hearts of the momenun in the form of a Luminous Light (Nur) which guides and protects all momenun from the traps of doing blind taqleed to false leaders (mujtaheds). I wounder what kind of heart you were given at that time???

Ya Ali Madad!

Edited by NoorofMasoomeen

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