Questions That Need Answers

[Socrates 51]

In salah, we ask God's help. We should seek God's help directly with Salah and with patience.... This is not a verse to say you should seek help from other then Allah.

Quran is written by Allah, but it has no avail, not to the very least, when people don't sincerely turn to him often, and this in his own words "none remembers save him whom turns to him often".

Without Anaba, Quran will not avail. It's healing and mercy to the believers whom are sincere in the pledge "Thee do we worship and thee do we seek help from", otherwise it says it increases the unjust in perdition.

wa salam

In saying Ya Ali, we ask God's help.

Without believing in Ahlul Bayt (as) as the intepreters and inheritors of the Qur'an it increase the unjust in perdition. Especially those who read it much, but benefit from it nothing.

[elite 145]

Those who deem permissible to call on other than Allah, please respond to theses questions. Let us see if the action is based on shirk/innovation or not.

1. Did Allah, when mentioning intercession, ever say that you can invoke them?

[5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

2. Do theses intercessors know what is in my heart?

[ 9:105] And say (unto them): Act! Allah will behold your actions, and (so will) His messenger and the believers, and ye will be brought back to the Knower of the Invisible and the Visible, and He will tell you what ye used to do.

Edited September 9, 2010 by elite

[MysticKnight 118]

In saying Ya Ali, we ask God's help.

Your asking for Ali's help. The Mushrikeeen worshipped beings they thought were sons of God, if you mean Ali is noor from Allah, then the same logic Mushrikeen could have used, since Allah (swt) said they are honored servants that act by his Command.

The fact they are honored servants that according to his command was use to negate calling upon them, since, they will not intercede except by God's approval. God needs to approve for both the interceded and interceder, as such it makes sense only to ask God.

When they sought help from other then God and called upon others, this is what Quran mention as calling upon others. They saw them as sons, and Quran said rather they are but servants that he has honored. Calling up such servants is not calling upon only Allah, it's calling with Allah others, which Quran explicitly said not to do it said.

Don't call with Allah anyone... this means in the calls you make to Allah, no one else should be in this call.

As for Ahlebayt being intrepreters, this is true, and it's true, denial of their station when met with clear proofs, is being unjust, and much of Quran darkens, and the taghut is then supported and it increases them in perdition.

Ahlebayt (God bless them) also taught the following:

"In your hands, and not in the hands anyone else, is my increase and decrease"

and they showed believers call Allah with no intercessor in their call:

"All Praise is for Allah whom I call upon with my needs whenever I wish, and I entrust Him with my secrets without an intercessor, and He grants me my wishes"

And also other words and du'as, teach this, including the famous letter of Imam Ali (as) to one of his sons...

[elite 145]

8. If I'm alone in a room, who is watching me, hearing me, knows my desires? Just Allah or other than him are also all-hearing, all-all seeing, ever-present?

9. If they have been given such powers, where did Allah say that they have been granted such powers?

[18:65] Then they found one from among Our servants whom We had granted mercy from Us and whom We had taught knowledge from Ourselves.

let us look at the Qur'anic story of Musa and Khidr (a.s.). Khidr (a.s.) used the word at-ta'wil twice when he told Musa: ...now I will uijonn you of the interpretation of that with which you could not have patience (18:78); This is the interpretation of that with which you could not have patience (18:82).

What he explained to Musa was the true significance of his three actions which Musa had misjudged because of his un-awareness of their real purposes.

The three events were as follows:

1. ... until when they embarked in the boat he made a hole in it... (18:71).

2. ... until when they met a boy, he slew him (18:74).

3. ... until when they came to the people of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused to receive them as guests. Then they found in it a wall which was on the point of falling, so he set it upright (18: 77).

And this is how Musa (a.s.) misconstrued these events:

1. (Musa) said: "Have you made a hole in it to drown its inmates? Certainly you have done a grievous thing" (18. 71).

2. (Musa) said: "Have you slain an innocent person otherwise than for manslaughter? Certainly you have done a horrible thing (18:74).

3. (Musa) said: "If you had pleased, you might certainly have taken a recompense for it" (18:77).

And the following are the "final interpretations" of them, as explained by Khidr (a.s.):

1. "As for the boat, it belonged to (some) poor men who worked on the river and I wished that I should damage it, and there was behind them a king who seized every boat by force" (18:79).

2. "And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by disobedience (to them) and disbelief (in God). So we desired that their Lord might give them in his place one better than him in purity and nearer to having compassion" (18. 80 - 81).

3. "And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure belonging to them, and their father was a righteous man; so your Lord desired that they should attain their maturity and take out their treasure, a mercy from your Lord... (18. 82).

Then he answered all the objection of Musa (a.s.) in a short sentence: "And I did not do it of my own accord" (18:82).

In above story How Khidr(a.s.) know about following by knowledge taught to him by Allah.

1. There was behind king who sized evey boat by force

2. Parents of boy were belivers

3. Boy should oppress his parents by disobedience and disbelief

4. Lord would give them in exchange (a son) better in purity (of conduct) and closer in affection

5. Wall belong to two orphan boy

6 Treasure beneath wall

7 Father of orphan boy was righteous man

So why do you wonder upon servents of Allah upon whom he bestowed his blessing and taught knowledge from him ????

For the prophet(S.A.W) him self is mercy to the worlds and he also possessed knowledge.

[ 21:107] And We have not sent you but as a mercy to the worlds.

[20:114}….and say: My Lord! Increase me in knowledge…...

Edited September 10, 2010 by elite

[AbuMuslimKhorasani 1]

We are asking Ali for help just as the Prophet (pbuh) asked Ali for help.

You're praying to Ali. You're not asking him. Apply the same logic against your own self. Can we say that you never pray to Allah since you just "ask" Allah?

Secondly, the Prophet never did what you claim he did. He never prayed to other than Allah.

Asalam Alaikum brother Fallah,

Your points really make sense. May Allah reward you.

The Mushrikeen of Makkah were better than those Muslims who call besides Allah. At least the Mushrikeen of Makkah believed in Allah (despite not having the book) but they used to say that we worship these idols to bring us near God. "Unquestionably, for Allah is the pure religion. And those who take protectors besides Him [say], "We only worship them that they may bring us nearer to Allah in position." Indeed, Allah will judge between them concerning that over which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide he who is a liar and [confirmed] disbeliever". (Surah Zumr 3)

And they serve beside Allah what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you (presume to) inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him). Quran [10:18]

If you ask them, "Who has created the heavens and the earth and has subdued the sun and moon?" They will say, "God has done it." So why are they wandering about!? (Surah Ankabut 61)

If you ask them, "Who has sent down water from the sky to revive the dead earth?" They will say, "God has done it." Say, "It is only God who deserves all praise, but many of them do not understand." ( Surah Ankabut 63)

And if you asked them, "Who created the heavens and earth?" they would surely say, "Allah." Say, "[All] praise is [due] to Allah "; but most of them do not know. Surah Luqman Verse:25

And (former shia ayatollah) Syed Abul Fazl Burqae Qomi (rh) said his beautiful words about this issue here: [his lecture is in Farsi)

Now the so called Muslims, they have the book of Allah but still they call on dead people for help. Allah (swt) says in the Quran that those whom you call upon are servants like you.

Those people whom you are calling for are busy answering their own deeds so how can they help you.

Wasalam Alaikum,

Edited September 10, 2010 by AbuMuslimKhorasani

[Socrates 51]

ame='fallah' date='08 July 2010 - 01:41 PM' timestamp='1278614487' post='2069124']

Those people whom you are calling for are busy answering their own deeds so how can they help you.

Surely those who are answering their own deeds (like Abu Bakr will be answering why he stole Fadak and usurped the caliphate, and Umar will be answering why he burnt down the door of the daughter of the Holy Prophet (pbuh)) so we don't ask from them.

Those who are pure and infallible (33:33) are the ones who can intercede.

Edited September 10, 2010 by Socrates

[elite 145]

The Mushrikeen of Makkah were better than those Muslims who call besides Allah. At least the Mushrikeen of Makkah believed in Allah (despite not having the book) but they used to say that we worship these idols to bring us near God. "Unquestionably, for Allah is the pure religion. And those who take protectors besides Him [say], "We only worship them that they may bring us nearer to Allah in position." Indeed, Allah will judge between them concerning that over which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide he who is a liar and [confirmed] disbeliever". (Surah Zumr 3)

"Unquestionably, for Allah is the pure religion. And those who take protectors[awliya] besides Him [say], "We only worship them that they may bring us nearer to Allah in position." Indeed, Allah will judge between them concerning that over which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide he who is a liar and [confirmed] disbeliever". (Surah Zumr 3)

In above verse Awliya is plural of Wali

[shakir 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

[Pickthal 5:55] Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).

So according to you vesrse Surah Zumar 3 does not contradict verse 5:55??????

Verse of Surah Zumar 3 says Do not take Awliya besides Allah where as

Verse 5: 55 says Your Vali are Three

1) Allah

2) His messenger

3)those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

What do you mean by Besides Allah???

Prophet is not Rasool Allah???

Edited September 11, 2010 by elite

[MysticKnight 118]

"Unquestionably, for Allah is the pure religion. And those who take protectors[awliya] besides Him [say], "We only worship them that they may bring us nearer to Allah in position." Indeed, Allah will judge between them concerning that over which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide he who is a liar and [confirmed] disbeliever". (Surah Zumr 3)

In above verse Awliya is plural of Wali

[shakir 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

[Pickthal 5:55] Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).

So according to you vesrse Surah Zumar 3 does not contradict verse 5:55??????

Verse of Surah Zumar 3 says Do not take Awliya besides Allah where as

Verse 5: 55 says Your Vali are Three

1) Allah

2) His messenger

3)those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

What do you mean by Besides Allah???

Prophet is not Rasool Allah???

5:55 is surely where there is Taqseer, guidance, and ghul.

As for Taqseer, it's to say it means Friend, while the friendship of Allah is above that of all creation.

As for the middle path, it's to say it refers to Authority and Mastership only in this sense, and this makes sense, because obeying the Messenger is obeying God, and obeying Imams is obeying God as well. There is no difference in obedience, but the principle Master, the true King, is Allah, and we obey Messenger to obey God, and we don't obey God to obey the Messenger.

As for Ghul, it's to make it Guardianship, while there is only one Guadrian whom takes care of his servants, and the Messenger is but a Messenger, and Messengers are not assigned this role.

Your doing Shirk by mutashabihat of Quran ignoring clear parts like "do not call with Allah anyone".

[AbuMuslimKhorasani 1]

Surely those who are answering their own deeds (like Abu Bakr will be answering why he stole Fadak and usurped the caliphate, and Umar will be answering why he burnt down the door of the daughter of the Holy Prophet (pbuh)) so we don't ask from them.

Those who are pure and infallible (33:33) are the ones who can intercede.

Asalam Alaikum,

It is not only about Umar(ra) and Abobakr (ra). Everyone is answering their own deeds this includes Ali (ra).

Thanks,

"Unquestionably, for Allah is the pure religion. And those who take protectors[awliya] besides Him [say], "We only worship them that they may bring us nearer to Allah in position." Indeed, Allah will judge between them concerning that over which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide he who is a liar and [confirmed] disbeliever". (Surah Zumr 3)

In above verse Awliya is plural of Wali

[shakir 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

[Pickthal 5:55] Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).

So according to you vesrse Surah Zumar 3 does not contradict verse 5:55??????

Verse of Surah Zumar 3 says Do not take Awliya besides Allah where as

Verse 5: 55 says Your Vali are Three

1) Allah

2) His messenger

3)those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.

What do you mean by Besides Allah???

Prophet is not Rasool Allah???

Asalam Alaikum,

I am talking about people who ask for help from other than Allah ?

The above Verse of Surah Zumur is exactly what those Muslims who love to call on dead say? they say these Imams, saints etc bring us near Allah and accepts our prayers quickly and fulfill our wishes.

[Socrates 51]

Asalam Alaikum,

It is not only about Umar(ra) and Abobakr (ra). Everyone is answering their own deeds this includes Ali (ra).

Ali (as) has no need to answer his deeds because everything there is no difference in between what Ali and Allah desired, as the Qur'an tells us.

[elite 145]

Asalam Alaikum,

It is not only about Umar(ra) and Abobakr (ra). Everyone is answering their own deeds this includes Ali (ra).

Thanks,

Asalam Alaikum,

I am talking about people who ask for help from other than Allah ?

The above Verse of Surah Zumur is exactly what those Muslims who love to call on dead say? they say these Imams, saints etc bring us near Allah and accepts our prayers quickly and fulfill our wishes.

Wsalam

Ask for help from other than Allah.

“If they ask you in a religious matter, you must help them. (Quran, 8:72)”

Help one another in righteousness and piety. (Quran, 5:2).

[ 2:154] And call not those who are slain in the way of Allah "dead." Nay, they are living, only ye perceive not.

Edited September 14, 2010 by elite

[elite 145]

5:55 is surely where there is Taqseer, guidance, and ghul.

As for Taqseer, it's to say it means Friend, while the friendship of Allah is above that of all creation.

As for the middle path, it's to say it refers to Authority and Mastership only in this sense, and this makes sense, because obeying the Messenger is obeying God, and obeying Imams is obeying God as well. There is no difference in obedience, but the principle Master, the true King, is Allah, and we obey Messenger to obey God, and we don't obey God to obey the Messenger.

As for Ghul, it's to make it Guardianship, while there is only one Guadrian whom takes care of his servants, and the Messenger is but a Messenger, and Messengers are not assigned this role.

Your doing Shirk by mutashabihat of Quran ignoring clear parts like "do not call with Allah anyone".

Please read following article for meaning of "wali" and "Mawla"

What is mean by do not call with Allah anyone ?

It means do not worship anyone otherthan Allah.

Do not believe somebody as partner in lordship,kingdom of Allah.

Is not it difference between to believe someone as partner of Allah and to believe as servant of Allah.?

But to believe some servants Allah upon whom he bestowed his favors and assigned him kingdom is it Shirk?

To seek help by keeping in mind that one is servant of Allah and he bestowd his favor on him is shirk?

Edited September 14, 2010 by elite

[present4u 0]

In saying Ya Ali, we ask God's help.

(salam)

How is that? Saying: Ya Ali, means Ya Ali madad. Madad, that's help. So you claim that by saying: O Ali Help me, you are asking God's help? Ali is a God for you?

[Socrates 51]

(salam)

How is that? Saying: Ya Ali, means Ya Ali madad. Madad, that's help. So you claim that by saying: O Ali Help me, you are asking God's help? Ali is a God for you?

When you pray to Allah, why do you use the medium of Salat? Is qiyam, ruku and sajda your god?

[present4u 0]

When you pray to Allah, why do you use the medium of Salat? Is qiyam, ruku and sajda your god?

I am not asking help from qiyam, or salat. I am not saying: Ya salat madad!

[Socrates 51]

I am not asking help from qiyam, or salat. I am not saying: Ya salat madad!

The Qur'an orders you to use salat for asking help. See 2:153.

[present4u 0]

The Qur'an orders you to use salat for asking help. See 2:153.

[shakir 2:153] O you who believe! seek assistance through patience and prayer; surely Allah is with the patient.

Yes, I am asking from Allah to help me and guide me to the straight path in my prayers. Are you pretending, or really can't see difference? Whose assistance? We should seek assistance of Allah.

[AbuMuslimKhorasani 1]

Wsalam

Ask for help from other than Allah.

“If they ask you in a religious matter, you must help them. (Quran, 8:72)”

Help one another in righteousness and piety. (Quran, 5:2).

[ 2:154] And call not those who are slain in the way of Allah "dead." Nay, they are living, only ye perceive not.

Asalam Alaikum,

How can you use these verses to back your claim?

May Allah guide us.

[Socrates 51]

[shakir 2:153] O you who believe! seek assistance through patience and prayer; surely Allah is with the patient.

Yes, I am asking from Allah to help me and guide me to the straight path in my prayers. Are you pretending, or really can't see difference? Whose assistance? We should seek assistance of Allah.

You don't understand.

You are ordered by Allah, to seek help from Allah, through another medium, which in this case is patience and prayer.

You seek help through prayer, I seek help from the one who is the only human being whose prayer is praised in the Qur'an. See 5:55.

The assistance is from Allah in all cases. No one can help unless Allah allows them to.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Socrates

[Salawat 1]

[shakir 2:153] O you who believe! seek assistance through patience and prayer; surely Allah is with the patient.

Yes, I am asking from Allah to help me and guide me to the straight path in my prayers. Are you pretending, or really can't see difference? Whose assistance? We should seek assistance of Allah.

Dont waste time with ghulat, they have no understanding of the concept of tawheed/oneness of Allah so how can you convince them of lesser issues?

[Socrates 51]

Dont waste time with ghulat, they have no understanding of the concept of tawheed/oneness of Allah so how can you convince them of lesser issues?

Stop your Nasibi tactics of coming into a thread, and then when challenged, running away because you have no answer. This is a Shia forum and we don't welcome people whose sole purpose is to mock Ahlul Bayt (as).

Edited September 14, 2010 by Socrates

[umair24 1]

Stop your Nasibi tactics of coming into a thread, and then when challenged, running away because you have no answer. This is a Shia forum and we don't welcome people whose sole purpose is to mock Ahlul Bayt (as).

dat is why ur shiaism lacks in every aspect..Its obvious u have no answers to this but u kept things repeating again n again..if u dont want to welcome anyone except shais here do one thing make a small colony for shais and disassociate urselves frm the world...inside the colony keep cursing..u will get ur reward INSHALLAH :unsure:

[Salawat 1]

Stop your Nasibi tactics of coming into a thread, and then when challenged, running away because you have no answer. This is a Shia forum and we don't welcome people whose sole purpose is to mock Ahlul Bayt (as).

What do the Ahlul bayt have to do with any of what I wrote?

And where have I mocked them?

bro you are a ghali through and through, and I dont throw such accusations until I'm 1000% sure.

Its pointless discussing with you as its pointless to discuss with atheists about fiqhi matters, understand where I'm coming from?

[JimJam 208]

^ Dont call him a Ghali, intercession is a reality, mentioned in the Quran. And saying Ya Muhammad or Ya Ali is intercession and declaration of loyalty. But it really depends on the intention of the man saying Ya Ali, if he thinks Ali (as) will help directly, then thats wrong, if he thinks that for love of Ali Allah will help him them, thats what its about.

And i dont think you realize that Shia have a better understanding of tawhid that people who believe in having faith without asking how.

http://www26.brinkster.com/sdolshah1/negative.html

http://www26.brinkster.com/sdolshah1/tawasul.html

http://www26.brinkster.com/sdolshah1/apropos7.html

Edited September 14, 2010 by JimJam

[Socrates 51]

dat is why ur shiaism lacks in every aspect..Its obvious u have no answers to this but u kept things repeating again n again..if u dont want to welcome anyone except shais here do one thing make a small colony for shais and disassociate urselves frm the world...inside the colony keep cursing..u will get ur reward INSHALLAH :unsure:

Rather we have answers for everything. Open a thread on the topics and we will discuss. Open challenge.

We welcome everyone except for haters.

What do the Ahlul bayt have to do with any of what I wrote?

And where have I mocked them?

bro you are a ghali through and through, and I dont throw such accusations until I'm 1000% sure.

Its pointless discussing with you as its pointless to discuss with atheists about fiqhi matters, understand where I'm coming from?

I am not your brother, because you are a Nasibi and it is haraam for me to eat from your table. And the majority of Sunnis are not like you, for they are my brethren even if we have disagreements on many issues, whereas you are merely a hater.

[Salawat 1]

Rather we have answers for everything. Open a thread on the topics and we will discuss. Open challenge.

We welcome everyone except for haters.

I am not your brother, because you are a Nasibi and it is haraam for me to eat from your table. And the majority of Sunnis are not like you, for they are my brethren even if we have disagreements on many issues, whereas you are merely a hater.

THats all you have, accusations of nasb, its meaningless as they ceased to exist centuries ago.

What is your definition of nasb, might I ask?

[present4u 0]

^ Dont call him a Ghali, intercession is a reality, mentioned in the Quran. And saying Ya Muhammad or Ya Ali is intercession and declaration of loyalty. But it really depends on the intention of the man saying Ya Ali, if he thinks Ali (as) will help directly, then thats wrong, if he thinks that for love of Ali Allah will help him them, thats what its about.

Saying: O ALI HELP ME, means: O Ali help me, and not O Allah help for sake of Ali.

[JimJam 208]

Saying: O ALI HELP ME, means: O Ali help me, and not O Allah help for sake of Ali.

You are not the judge of people intentions, Allah is. You are not interested in understanding other points of view. You only want to drill your narrow view into other people.

Imam Sadiq(a.s.) , says that when the period of Yusuf's imprisonment came to an end and the day of his freedom had arrived, he placed his cheeks on the ground(in humility)and said: "O Allah! if my sins have besmeared my honour when I face You, so I call upon You by the combined honour of my meritorious ancestors, 'Ibrahim, Isma'il, Is- haq, and Ya'qoub. " After this prayer, Allah provided him with the means for his freedom. Shu'ayb, the narrator of the tradition, asked the Imam if they could say the same prayer. The Imam replied: You can also say something similar in this way; "O Allah, my sins have besmeared my honour when I face You, so I come to You and I call upon You by the combined honour of Your Prophet(pbuh) , Ali, Fatimah, Hassan, Hussayn, and the Imams(as.) "*

*Tafsirs: Majma' ul Bayan, vol. 5, p. 235 and S afi, vol. 3, p. 23 and Ia

Love of Ali (as) is virtue, loyalty to Ali (as) is loyalty to Allah. An expression of loyalty to Ali (as) is an expression of loyalty to Allah who loves Ali (as) and who guides you to himself through Muhammad (pbuh) and his family of whom Ali(as) is the greatest and most noble.

Edited September 14, 2010 by JimJam

[Salawat 1]

You are not the judge of people intentions

Correct, since the death of the Prophet (pbuh) we cant judge the intention of people as we cant tell what resides within someone's heart, which is why we are commanded to judge people by what they outwardly show and do

[JimJam 208]

Correct, since the death of the Prophet (pbuh) we cant judge the intention of people as we cant tell what resides within someone's heart, which is why we are commanded to judge people by what they outwardly show and do

We are commanded to investigate closely, we are not commanded to be bigoted people with a narrow definition of what is orthodox.

[Yusufali 4:94] O ye who believe! When ye go abroad in the cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to any one who offers you a salutation: "Thou art none of a believer!" Coveting the perishable goods of this life: with Allah are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves before, till Allah conferred on you His favours: Therefore carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware of all that ye do.

Are you willing to take this statement of yours to its logical conclusion?

When the supposedly well meaning mistakes of the well meaning people result in tragic outcomes, and when the ahl-e-bayt themselves condemn those supposedly well meaning people, then what do you do?

Now since you want to go by outward appearances why do you condemn those who were on the receiving end of the Ridda wars, and why on a similar note dont you condemn those who caused the battle of Jamal and Siffin.

“When I asked abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘what is Intelligence,’ He

replied, ‘It is a fact with whose help one worships Allah, the

Merciful, and attains paradise.’ I then asked, ‘What was the

thing with Mu’awiya?’ ‘It was shrewdness. It was mischief

which is similar to Intelligence but is not Intelligence,’ the Imam

replied.”

Al Kafi-Book of Intelligence and Ignorance H 3, Ch. 1, h3

Edited September 14, 2010 by JimJam

[Socrates 51]

THats all you have, accusations of nasb, its meaningless as they ceased to exist centuries ago.

What is your definition of nasb, might I ask?

Nasb is hating Ahlul Bayt (as) - that is the holy five under the Kisaa and no one else - and considering others to be better than them as well as denying their rights; views which you have expressed on this forum.

[Salawat 1]

Nasb is hating Ahlul Bayt (as) - that is the holy five under the Kisaa and no one else - and considering others to be better than them as well as denying their rights; views which you have expressed on this forum.

nice! redefining words I can do as well...those who believe in nass are ghulat and an atom shy of kufr

hows that, ghali?

[Righteous 128]

nice! redefining words I can do as well...those who believe in nass are ghulat and an atom shy of kufr

hows that, ghali?

You love and revere people who fought against Ali (as) and conspired Allah's appointee his rightful place. You are the very definition of Nasibi.

[JimJam 208]

Unless you're against the enemies of Ali (as), Hasan (as) & Husayn (as) i dont know how you can claim to be on their side. And if you are apologetic towards those who fought them then that seriously looks like being on the side of their enemies, external appearance-vise

Edited September 15, 2010 by JimJam

[Beloved 0]

Those who deem permissible to call on other than Allah, please respond to theses questions. Let us see if the action is based on shirk/innovation or not.

1. Did Allah, when mentioning intercession, ever say that you can invoke them?

This is just vodoo, this is shammanistic.

2. Do theses intercessors know what is in my heart?

You put them there, and they wasn't there before you put them there. So why you wanna put them there. You already have your own heart observe it.

3. Knowing that a Muslim is prohibited to make dua for a disbeliever, do they know who is calling on them?

To me it sounds beautiful to recite a dua for anyone period. It would only be love if you recited one for a disbeliever.

4. If they know what is in my heart and who is calling on them, why would you ever call Allah, if indeed your dua will be answered more effectively?

Effectively meaning things are not going well with your standards. Learn to accept things as they come, then you won't need voodoo anymore.

5. What if I said "Ya Muhammad" intending poetry, can he know that I said poetry, or will he automatically make dua for me?

How about you stop worrying so much.

6. Do they know my thoughts, or do I have to speak outloud for them to hear my cry for help? They are only there because you put them there, kick them out the same way you invited them in.

7. If they know my thoughts, why the sudden increase of power? Our Prophet didn't know that he was befriending hypocrites right? (Unless you want to insult our Prophet of intentionally hanging out with hypocrites)

Cut it out

8. If I'm alone in a room, who is watching me, hearing me, knows my desires? Just Allah or other than him are also all-hearing, all-all seeing, ever-present?

You.

9. If they have been given such powers, where did Allah say that they have been granted such powers?

when their imaginations went running wild

10. If we can call on the saints, how do you know if they were true in their faith and that they weren't hypocrites? What if you're calling someone who is getting punished in the grave, would you be committing shirk, since "you took the wrong intercessor"?

Forget about the saints leave them to whatever they are doing. Examine yourself.

11. If I build an idol in the imaginary form of Ali and go in front of it, believing that the idol in itself has no power, and I call on Ali to help me, would it be shirk?

It would be your imagination again.

12. Why did Allah prohibit us from invoking jinns and angels, and how come this prohibition is different than invoking departed souls?

Because its imagination.

13. Can theses intercessors refuse your call?

I would hope so. Then you could figure out a way to solve the problem yourself.

14. If they can refuse, why not call Allah since He said "I will answer you"?

Stop worrying so much about answers and results don't think of the world in statistics and graphing.

15. Can theses intercessors hear all the calls at the same time, and respond to them all at the same time? So in other words, are their faculties bound by time and space? Are they omnipotent, almost omnipotent, sometimes omnipotent?

They are imagination.

16. If they are not bound, how then can they be in barzakh and wait for the day of Judgement?

The day of judgement is when you say this stuff isn't who I am and begin laughing

17. From the conditions required to answer anyone's call on earth, weither secret call or loud call, and being able to differentiate between a genuine call and just a normal expression, could way say that you believe Allah created smaller gods, since you believe theses people have been given partial attributes/divinity of Allah?

They person who imagined them decides.

18. Did they possess such powers when they were alive on earth? If not, what evidence that Allah has granted the dead such ability?

Thank god we never seen this happen.

19. Concerning The verse saying "do not say they are dead, they are alive": if they are alive in the sense like they was on earth, why then didn't they have theses powers when they were on earth? Surely theses intercessors had souls on earth didn't they?

20. You say that the Prophet, imams, martyrs worship Allah in the grave, considering that alot of people call on them each day, do the Prophet, imams, and martyrs have any time left to worship Allah? Were they more capable of answering the calls of everyone back in the days, and now they've got too much on their hands? If not, are you also saying that they do not get tired, that they do not sleep, and they can do what they want at the same time, oddly, again, giving some of the divinity of Allah to them? "There is no diety except He, the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him."

21. Is there a delay between my call and the hearing of the intercessor? If there is a delay, then why would anyone call on other than Allah knowing Allah knows everything before it even happens?

22. Can I go in a church and invoke Jesus to help me? What about calling his mother to help me?

23. Can I bow down to a representation of Jesus, intending to bow down to Allah?

24. Can I build status and kiss it and talk to it, in the intention of kissing and talking to the person it represents?

25. Can I call on Uzza, while believing that Uzza is just a pious saint?

26. Can theses intercessors know what we write on the net, such as when you write "ali Madad"?

27. Why would anyone say "Ya Ali Madad" when the Prophet is greater in status?

28. Is the Mercy and Power of Allah greater than your demand and greater than the intercessor's concern for you? If so, why ask other than Allah?

29. Is Prayer an act of worship? If so, how can you justify praying to other than Allah?

30. If Allah answered Shaytan's direct request for delaying until the Day of Judgment, is the excuse of being "too sinful to ask Allah directly" any valid?

31. Concerning the verse telling us that the martyrs are alive, does Allah mean it literally?

It is accepted that people will be punished in their graves, and therefore we understand that they have to be alive in order to be punished.

Can we then say with rational deduction that this specific verse is metaphorical, and therefore cannot be used to support calling on the dead?

(salam)