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In the Name of God بسم الله

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016.020

YUSUFALI: Those whom they invoke besides Allah create nothing and are themselves created.

046.005

YUSUFALI: And who is more astray than one who invokes besides Allah, such as will not answer him to the Day of Judgment, and who (in fact) are unconscious of their call (to them)?

How do these ayats apply on the Prophet (pbuh) ?

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proof concerning invocation of the dead;

016.020

YUSUFALI: Those whom they invoke besides Allah create nothing and are themselves created.

016.021

YUSUFALI: (They are things) dead, lifeless: nor do they know when they will be raised up.

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Ilah combines with wanting Ahlebayt (as) because of the direction, you know the God is the Ultimate int hat, if you don;'t believe in that path and don't desire it... you are not deeming him the Ultimate Treasure that no one knows but he himself.

So it makes sense.

King, we know it makes sense, because obeying Rasool (saw) is obeying God, he orders and decides by God's command.

However as far Patron and helper and response, this Quran showed in great detail, his elect servants don't share in this, and he said this is Kufr......there is no calling Ahlebayt (as) is callinng Allah (swt) over here, it;s been refuted this concept....

So you don;'t equate the first two, with the latter....yes the guidance is accepting God's Wilayah....

But part of Wilayah of Ahlebayt (as) is they themselves taught as Quran teaches to call upon Allah (swt) and no one else.

Don;t mix things. Don't mix subjects to teach falsehood.

falsehood is always taught iwth truth mixed.

Don;t use qiyas, use the light of your heat, the blessed from Taha with you, to read Quran and understand.....

Iyaka nasteen is in this context, the same as "iyaka nabadu", it's said in the same way, as a unique way, and in fact, it's as if the latter sentence is emphasizing what is meant by that, which is confirmed by Ahlebayt (as),, because they said Du'a is Worship and following his guidance comes out belief of God responding...

It's not ambigious at all. We understood when young......

Why make it complicated?

We know when we praying, help, we mean spiritually, this is what we meant

it turns also that spiritual world is all that is true, the physical world is deceptive specially since it perishes, but asdie from that is lie too....

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"Ya Ali Madad" is praying to ali, unless you believe Ali is Allah.

Saying Ya Grandpa Madad is not praying to your grandfather. Same way saying Ya Ali Madad is not praying to Ali (A).

Liar.

Take your words back. Otherwise no discussion with you. Period.

Edited by Orion
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How do these ayats apply on the Prophet (pbuh) ?

You don;t get it still...

We see Quran doesn't use dictating, it says suppose these are true, what you say, then they are actually elect servants of God, they act by his command, they this and that.....

This is how Quran explained it, and so we know this is universal of the best of his creation.

In fact, they were all about Ahlebayt (as), because if sons would denote the hgihest beings created, if were true, but we know it's not, but if they were, it says they would be elected ones...

These are then Ahelbayt (as).

When we say Salam sincrerely, then Allah (swt) can convey this to him right away.....

However, it;'s not that if we call him and invoke him, God will burden him every time to hear people's Shirk. Does that make sense?

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Saying Ya Grandpa Madad is not praying to your grandfather. Same way saying Ya Ali Madad is not praying to your grandfather.

wasn't it just proved that asking dead people for anything is not practical and wrong?

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Shirk is to consider a person shareek in Allah's attributes. Your deficiency in understanding his attributes is why you don't understand shirk. Shirk is also considering a person shareek in the Holy Prophet's attributes, such as people giving the authority to change the religion to other individuals after the Prophet (Taraweeh and banning of mut'a), and Shirk is also appointing another person to the caliphate when Allah's representative has already been proclaimed. All of these are different forms of shirk. In addition, being materialistic and attached to the dunya is also a form of shirk, as is relying on other people and not relying on Allah and his true representatives.

The fault of the idolaters of Makka was not that they did not worship one God but that they used the wrong waseela (IDOLS) to get to Allah. This is why 5:35 says "find the Waseela" not create it. We have found the Waseela, they are the holy 14, who have been given all the permissions by Allah. You have not.

Of course he created and Allah himself affirms that there are other creators. What else is the meaning of the verse:

"blessed is he who is the best of creators." - 23:14

It confirms to us that there are other creators, but he is the best. Isa as.gif created without a shadow of a doubt, because Allah gave him the permission to do so.

I love you brother for this wonderful reply :)

Ali

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deaf, dumb, and blind, so they do not understand.

To me your religion and to you yours.

Except you get kicks out of insulting people. Alhamdulillah the people insulted the Prophet (pbuh) too. So at least I have been considered worthy of an insult.

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I love you brother for this wonderful reply :)

Ali

It's false, Quran talked about their beings as if they were right, they would then be Servants whom act by his command, etc.. through out is how it explained it...

It didn't say, well you know they dont really exist to begin with, so how will they get you to God...

It didn't say this, it made suppose what they are true what they say, in reality, they are then just elect servatns whom act by his command..... intercede only by his permission

Also Quran says regarding what they meant by Waseela (means of approach, no direct relationship with Allah (swt)) that there was no such Waseelaa. Do you know the verse? Or do you know only one and not the other? So you remember one or not the other?

How about you post the verse that says God ahs not put a waseela and tell me waseela means there.

salams

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the prophet (pbuh) never asked anybody other than Allah for help in his heart ... SUPPLICATION and/or in PRAYER

.. proven from the holy quran .. read above

Edited by Muhamad
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Proven from what? Why did the Prophet ask for help from the people?

This is differnet way of help, words having differnet meaning. It's not that helling cause of God, either helps the souls of Propeht or God...

The type of help in Iyakaa nastaeen is obviously not this type, because, then we ask everyone to spend in God's way, to feed poor, this is type is just for norms of the word...

But instead of acknowledging obviosuly was meant through out Quran about seeking Risq only from Allah (swt) and having no helper or patron besides him, you want to play semantics.....

Language is limited, Quran has everything in a place, everyone can take evveyrhtin out of it's place, if people do this, then Quran doesn't even teach there is ending to Propethood, simply because it allows for twisting of the verse....

the prophet (pbuh) never asked anybody other than Allah for help in his heart ... SUPPLICATION and/or in PRAYER

bro this is same game Sunnis play to escape twelve Caliphs, they don;'t realize words are limited, and some are meant in certain way in a context....

If we go by norms of language Ulil-Amr = Yazeed and not Hussain (as), but if we go by the Haq as Quran taught, ignoring norms of language, it;s Hussain (as)....

Dajjal sees on eye, and wants to just emphasize on it... it's always like that, that's how deception tkes place...some people will quote Imams to the fire, and sya see they both true authorities, which is stupdity...

others now want to equate the iyaaka nastaeen to be seeking help of people for God's casue, which is entirely different then the place and angle of the help in that verse...

they don't want to know the truth, they go to twist Quran to suit their jibt and taghut foundations.

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The following verse was used to put end to this type of rhetoric:

Is whom that responds to the distressed one when he calls upon him and removes the evil...

.

And again anyone trying to give that line above to anyone else but Allah (swt) then is a Mushrik.

The light has the tranquility we long for, but we have to seek it from God, to remove the evil and give to us...

Not anyone else but Allah (swt).

Anwyays since Quran didn't have just once verse or two , but bunch safeguaring each other, liek the wage verses, like the Harun subject, like the covenant and 12....

I will show how clear it is in Quran with another thread......

Woe to those whom associate with a call reserved as exalting God and his Patronship and Help and Guardianship and Friendship and Lordship and Closeness...with others....

Edited by MysticKnight
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010.018

YUSUFALI: They serve, besides Allah, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: "Do ye indeed inform Allah of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"

Bro, it's true that many if not most muslims today don't understand their religion and the quran, but i hope we can. And it's not just the sunnis who are suffering from disease in their iman & understanding, also shia have their own challenges. So let's keep it simple and stick to the parts of the quran that are clear.

and may this be a warning to anybody who is treading the dangerous path of summoning/invoking/calling in their hearts any other than Allah.

004.048

YUSUFALI: Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

this has nothing to do with suni/shia/hussein/whatever .. this is pure quran .. if you want to disprove me, then disprove me through quran. thank you

Edited by Muhamad
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010.018

YUSUFALI: They serve, besides Allah, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: "Do ye indeed inform Allah of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"

Bro, it's true that many if not most muslims today don't understand their religion and the quran, but i hope we can. And it's not just the sunnis who are suffering from disease in their imam, also shia have their own challenges. So let's keep it simple and stick to the parts of the quran that are clear.

and may this be a warning to anybody who is treading the dangerous path of summoning/invoking/calling in their hearts any other than Allah.

004.048

YUSUFALI: Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

this has nothing to do with suni/shia/hussein/whatever .. this is pure quran .. if you want to disprove me, then disprove me through quran. thank you

Again, these ayats dont apply on the Prophet (S) and his Ahlul Bait (as). Both Sunnis and Shia believe in the intersession of Rasool Allah (S).

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So you agree these verses dont apply on the Prophet (S). Right?

It applies to him for sure and these verses where in fact about AHlebayt (as) as well, it was balance in how Quran taught them, from exaggeration to their limitation, and from their belittleness to their exalted status, it had a balanced approach...

It used sons and gods and call others as interceders, to show elect ones and their limit and God's Lordship, and to show as far as this, no it's direct calling to God, and if you call them elect ones, they will not hear you, becasue your doing shirk and will dissocciate form you, and in fact, what you really call, is just Satan, and it's falsehood because you brought Lordship from what it is, to what it's not, what is, is Allah, the whom responds ot the distressed one and removes the evil, the close one to his servants whom loves them and cares for them when they call upon him....

And it used the bellting them, to emphasize on making them the means of guidance, and following them to be following God, obeyig them obeying God, and thta commanded them to seek forgiveness for believers, and will make them guides inwardly and ooutwardly , to be obeyed by his permission, they hold the truth and Name of God, and have deep ocrean of knowledge....

And it's a balance... this is how Quran talks about it, this is why 1/3 of Quran is said to be about them, it's because if you know them as

1) Exalted servants appointed as Guides, and will Guide when God commands and allows, and approves of the receiver of that guidance and their path is to Allah (swt), the Ultimate treasure which on the way is just increase of treasure upon treasured light and beauty and glory....

2) Not Lords as God is close to his servants and takes care of them himself and is too dignified to make people rely and seek help from others (i mean true sense, spiritual world sense), but servatns of God, whom call to call upon God only and rely on Him and seek Risq from him and cannot be put anywhere near God's status...

Balance... this is what is needed.

Stop the conjecture..read Quran properly analyszing sincerley.

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Again, these ayats dont apply on the Prophet (S) and his Ahlul Bait (as). Both Sunnis and Shia believe in the intersession of Rasool Allah (S).

intersession if Allah wills it after we die and get raised up again .. when we see the prophet in front of us in the same world we will be in together. He will not be somewhere else like now.

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intersession if Allah wills it after we die and get raised up again .. when we see the prophet in front of us in the same world we will be in together. He will not be somewhere else like now.

There is no problem with intercession in this world bro, it's just about praying to Allah (swt) only and recognizing Mohammad (saw) as such a servant, but asking it from Allah (swt) since he must approve of the servant he is going to intercede.

It's very simple, and as far as spiritual connection, God commanded Rasool (saw) to do so when possible, so it's just abotu us asking Allah (swt) to heal our hearts, orient to the pure light, not the false Sun that has lead astray so many Jinn worshippers in thinking they are enlightened.....

And that's it... they will Guide adn be Guides, but Allah (swT) is the one whom removes the veil between them and creation, it's him whom is to be asked to take away blidnness fo hearts, not to call upon toher then him which kills the from Yaseen Ftira of humanity....

And they intercede by God's commadn, God is the true interceder though, that is why there is no interceder but him, staetd many times....

Edited by MysticKnight
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There is no problem with intercession in this world bro,

hey bro, intersession that we are talking about is the intersession that will get believers into jannah in judgment day. We are still in dunya now being tested.

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Saying Ya Grandpa Madad is not praying to your grandfather. Same way saying Ya Ali Madad is not praying to Ali (A).

Take your words back. Otherwise no discussion with you. Period.

You're a liar.

saying ya Grandpa madad when he's right next to you is considered asking a person to help you.

Ali is not next to you, you made him a god.

I won't take my words back.

If I say Ya Uzza, I'm not calling Allah. If I say, Ya Grandpa, I'm not calling Allah. When I say Ya X, I'm not calling Y. Logic 101.

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hey bro, intersession that we are talking about is the intersession that will get believers into jannah in judgment day. We are still in dunya now being tested.

Salam

Ok I get what you saying. I'm talking about Prophet (saw) interceding and asking forgiving..and both are commanded by God and in Quran we find both commands...

1) Ask forgiveness for you when you obey...

2) He is a Waseela, when you become obedient to Allah (swt)...

Imam Jaffar (as) states this in exalted majestic noble Misbahal Shariah, when explain tashahud. That;'s why I talked about formal, because they are already commanded to do so.

It's abotu knowing his Maqaam as the way that must held on to and adhere to and clung to, and companioship.... it's about recognition...Quran shows this status. It talks about the connection in Suratal Anaam which emphasizes that is NOT in Mohammad's (saw) hadn to respond with thie sign...it's up to God to remove the veil between them and him, and it;s up to God open up the hearts and guide towarsd his light.......

It explains this Waseela, but says it's up to God, over and over again, the Sign topics, all show this.... Every Surah discussing the Noor connecting sure vision Guidance, to be not up to anyone but God, because at the end, the blindness is really blindnenss to God, so they should call upon God sincierely, and he will remove them evil and connect them.....

These evil people, they teach about this Waseela which people like me long for, but then they make it as if you call upon Ahlebayt (as) while Quran through out has shown, anyone wanting this guidance, has to turn to God frequently, and he will guide whom turns to him frequently.

This subject is repeated...it's if we don't want to see that we won't....

May God make the sun worshippers, leave their sun, and come to the high pure servants of God that never called to call upon other their Lord.....

wa salam

You're a liar.

saying ya Grandpa madad when he's right next to you is considered asking a person to help you.

Ali is not next to you, you made him a god.

I won't take my words back.

If I say Ya Uzza, I'm not calling Allah. If I say, Ya Grandpa, I'm not calling Allah. When I say Ya X, I'm not calling Y. Logic 101.

words are words.. the words of quran are not the light broguht down, the meaning is what is the bright signs,....

disbelieving int he menaing is not different then having not believed in the letter sequences...

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You're a liar.

saying ya Grandpa madad when he's right next to you is considered asking a person to help you.

Ali is next to me. What is so difficult about this that you cannot understand?

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I knew of You by You, and You directed me to You and called me to You, and without You I would not have known what You are. All Praise is for Allah whom I call upon with my needs then He answers me, even though I was slow when He calls upon me. All Praise is for Allah whom I supplicate and He grants me (what I plead for) even though I was stingy when He sought a loan from me.

All Praise is for Allah whom I call upon with my needs whenever I wish, and I entrust Him with my secrets without an intercessor, and He grants me my wishes.

We believe in the Lord of Imam Sajjad (as), whom taught us to pray in this matter.

All Praise is for Allah whom I call upon with my needs whenever I wish, and I entrust Him with my secrets without an intercessor, and He grants me my wishes.

So Imam Sajjad (as) taught the way of the believer is to:

I entrust Him with my secrets without an intercessor

Now whom was on this path, Forgeforth whom we all ganged up against, or us?

I entrust Him with my secrets without an intercessor

whom?

There is a lot of hadiths/duas all teaching this. Numerous verses clear... Hadiths + logic and human fitra...

Throw it all out for conjecture and making false honor....to justify Shirk in Worshiping God, we suppose to have made this part of a unique relationship between us and God.....

You gather up and write a Du'a like the Du;a abu thamalee, and none of humanity will be able to... and look at the start...and the thing is asks God to take away love of Dunya and gather from the caller and Ahelbayt (as) together.....

And Saheefa Sajadiya teaches us to ask God for companionship of Rasool (saw)...

He asks God to make Rasool (saw) interceder for us and his mercy, combine them....

Now what do people want us to do, not ask God, while the interceders can they intercede from whom God doesn't approve? So how do you know your approved? And whom has to approve? Does it make sense more ask the one whom himself commanded the interceder to intercede, doesn't allow it except by his permission and must be pleased with the whom he is interceding...whom does it make sense to ask more?

Have you thought about actually looking at the logic of the verses?

No matter how clear a hadith is or aya is....why can;t you reserve this supplication to Allah (swt) a lone?

Edited by MysticKnight
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I agree. Which is why I think Ya Ali Madad is wrong.

wa salam

(salam)

lol me to I think YA ALI is wrong. + some EVEN take help by him; when they are going to carry somethign heavy they said ya moula ali. I never say ya ali/fatimah/hassan/huseyn/muhammed. I allways say ya Allah.

(wasalam)

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Ali is next to me. What is so difficult about this that you cannot understand?

He's also next to your friend Orion. Tell me, is Ali omnipresent, does he duplicate himself to listen to you? Or his knowledge is equal to Allah's knowledge, his presence is equal to Allah's presence? When you call on him for help, why would you think that he will answer you? Does he possess such powers to answer your call? please, don't call yourself a shia. Ali would burn you. Was Ali next to everyone when he was on earth? Why then do you believe things will change after he passes away?

Read the quran. I quoted around 120 verses proving you wrong. What do you have left? Your own whims and self-made logic.

Using your own ways of thought, I could render praying to Chrishna halal. I could turn bowing down to status of Uzza halal. Actually, every haram can become halal if you want to twist the religion like you guys are doing.

Edited by fallah
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(salam)

lol me to I think YA ALI is wrong. + some EVEN take help by him; when they are going to carry somethign heavy they said ya moula ali. I never say ya ali/fatimah/hassan/huseyn/muhammed. I allways say ya Allah.

(wasalam)

Salam

The Imams (as) spirits are not easy matter, that is why when they asked for sure sign, it said, if he makes him see the reality of Mohammad (saw), what would happen to them? If rather then the Sayateen and Jinns that trick, an Angel did come to them, what would happen to their souls???

Yamal Qiyama was talked abotu with this subject, and it said not to hasten his Signs.... the Unseen belongs to Allah (swt), Allah (swt) is Wise Lover of beleivers, they ought to trust him...

He commanded Rasool (saw) to be a connection and connect when he can, so the Imam Zaman (as) will connect and Ahlebaty (as) will, when they get approval from God, and it is said this is not in Rasool's (saw) hand..it's really up to God to guide, and he gudies whom turns to him.

The beautiful Names of God with Guides, means, if you call upon Allah (swt) through his Ultimate Beautiful Names, you easly recognize the beautiful souls. Only after that, does then recognizing Imams (as) and calling through them to Allah (swt), is one and the same, by "Allah" or "Ahlebaty", sinc e"Ahlebaty" are "Worshipers", so they manifesting "Allah" by their exalting him, and the latter is ebtter, since we also recall servanthood with Lordship together, and is what is emphaszed with Lord of Musa and Harun.. in Quran...

At any rate... we will discuss this stuff in detaill inshalalh another thread quoting verses all about this subject.....but all of this has been explaiend in quran...

This is why I am glad I rejected the Syed caste system and Khums twisting...as God rewards sincerity to truth to even people engroed in insincerity in other respects.....

Any sincerity to truth, will guide people....it's the only way out of hte thaghut and jib and the satanic forces through out, in all instances of it, in all societies, in all times...

wa salm

Edited by MysticKnight
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(salam)

lol me to I think YA ALI is wrong. + some EVEN take help by him; when they are going to carry somethign heavy they said ya moula ali. I never say ya ali/fatimah/hassan/huseyn/muhammed. I allways say ya Allah.

(wasalam)

They claim to follow Ahlul Bayt as an example, yet nobody among them ever invoked other than Allah. What ways are they following? Ahlul Bayt? More like the ways of jahl.

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