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In the Name of God بسم الله
Guest Muhamad

Beyond Suni And Shia .. Just Muslim

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First of all, the majority of Muslims are in fact Sunnis.

Secondly prayers at Hajj are done by sunnis.

Sunnis follow the sunnat of Prophet Muhammed

the origination of Shia came from Isfahan a city where the prson who brought up shia was in fact a fire worhsipper.

I believe in the Ahlulbayt and they fought for Islam, but what about Prophet Muhammed? He is the only person to meet Allah SWT. You do matam for the Ahlulbayt but wat about the Prophet? You shed blood and hit yourself with knives, what for the Prpghet? No for the Ahlulbayt. You worship the Ahlulbayt which is completely haram. First you pray to Allah and then you make sincere duas for the Prophet. You can't say that anyone who doesn't embark on your path had chosen hell. Prophet Muhammed is the person Allah has chosen to be the messenger of Islam. Don't forget that.

The peron who wrote the quote above this message you put it very nicely. I totally believe and understand what you are saying. Shias are haters and there are only two parts to the shahada. Sunnis did not add Bukharis name to the shahada so why ad Imama ALis name. You are insulting the Imams and you should be ashamed.

Werent you on another thread claiming to be Shia. Very quick conversion.

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On 7/1/2010 at 8:57 PM, Guest Muhamad said:

For the Imam Mahdi to emerge there need to be enough people ready for him.

For Imam Mahdi to emerge, there need the command of Allah (s.w.t) at the first place. And after that, the "need of people ready for him" as a prerequisite, becomes absurd. 

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Salam Alaykoom,

I will be brief, since people have exposed in lengthy posts what the gist of the problem is about. Let me just add a few things.

On 7/2/2010 at 11:26 AM, Guest Muhamad said:

And for prophet Mohamed to accept someone as a believer this person just needed to say la illaha ilallah muhamad rasul Allah. our religion is simple and easy, and using things that our ancestors did as a factor to judge people as kafir or moomen NOW is definitely devil's work.

There's a very precise reason for verse 5:3 being the last verse revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (S), and it pertains to the sermon of Ghadir Khumm, in which he commanded the Ummah (among many other important things) to pay allegiance to Imam Ali (as), his progeny (as), and to have enmity with their (as) enemies.

In fact, we Shias (literally translated as factionalists) aren't diverging from the command of Allah (azwj) and are indeed following the Sunnah (tradition) of its Prophet (S). As such, we'd have more rights to be called Sunnis (traditionalists) than you do, and you'd have more rights to be called Shias (factionalists) than we do, if it weren't for the fact that the Imams themselves (as) started using this epithet and thus made it a noble title to bear for the pious and trusted ones.

The fact remains that one group called the other by the name of their own sins (typical reverse accusation) while the other remained silent and endured the fitnah by adhering to the truthful (as). People will soon be asked to choose sides and noone who knows a modicum about his faith will be able to sincerely remain on the fence for long.

The Qur'an leaves no room for debate for not being a muslim just as Ghadir Khumm leaves no room for debate for not paying alliegance to Amir Al-Mu'mineen (as).

Wa Salam.

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The reality of non denominational  Islam -Sayed Ahmad Al-Qazwini

https://youtu.be/PC8Ed4IdAI4

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On 11/16/2018 at 10:29 AM, SamAlFarsi said:

The Qur'an leaves no room for debate for not being a muslim just as Ghadir Khumm leaves no room for debate for not paying alliegance to Amir Al-Mu'mineen (as).

Wa Salam.

Wasalaam,

That is the problem. We all have our own interpretation of the Quran, and no one of us has the right to be 100% of anything, because we are all human, and not God. So we can just hope that we right about our interpretations. The same goes for allegiance to Ahlul Bayt. It's up to interpretation what that means exactly, and who they are, and what they taught and stood for. Therefore, it is best to give everybody who is Muslim the benefit of the doubt, unless they are clearly hypocrites of their own faith. Sunis and Shia have enough in common to have very clear guidelines for behavior. Kindness, generosity, charity, connection & fear of Allah, fairness, non-materialism, etc etc.

Each person gets judged alone. Many who claim to know what 5:3 is about will go to hell, while many who never even heard of the Arab word Quran, will go to heaven. Essentially, it is in God's hands in what state our hearts are in. And definitely those who are good in their hearts will be for tolerance, acceptance, and unity.

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On 11/16/2018 at 12:39 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

The reality of non denominational  Islam -Sayed Ahmad Al-Qazwini

https://youtu.be/PC8Ed4IdAI4

Thanks for the video.

The point is that all sects and groups of today have mistakes in their teachings. So even though some people might know about the wilaya of Imam Ali, maybe other people understand tawheed of Allah more. It might be right that Imam Ali is the Khalifa, but the modern Shia traditions might be far off from what Imam Ali stood for. To claim that one is Shia is just as uncertain as saying one is Muslim or Mumin. We are all uncertain, among the people who fear God. I definitely think it's important to learn and make educated opinions based on truths, but in principle the people of Kufa also called themselves Shia until they proved not to be. The true Shia of today are the ones who are in tune and ready for the Imam Mahdi, and those are probably among all sects and religions of today. And time will tell who the true followers of ahlulbayt are. And anybody who follows ahlulbayt is Muslim and Mumin at the same time. Hope that makes sense.

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Salam Alaykoom,

On 11/20/2018 at 6:15 PM, 313 Seeker said:

We all have our own interpretation of the Quran

On 11/20/2018 at 6:34 PM, 313 Seeker said:

I definitely think it's important to learn and make educated opinions based on truths

There is no room for opinion in religion. It's a fact people tend to forget. It's not up to the individual to decide whether to have a certain interpretation of things and ignore a certain amount of other things and as is said in Wasa'il us-Shia:

Quote

H  33192 – And  from  Haroun  Bin  Muslim,  from  Mas’adat  Bin  Sadaqat,  from  Ja’far  Bin Muhammad (asws) from his (asws) forefathers (asws) said:
The Messenger of Allah (saww) said: ‘Beware of conjecture/guess, for conjecture is the biggest of all lies’.

Quote

H  33171 – And  in  Al  Majaalis  and  in  Ma’ani  Al  Akhbaar  from  Muhammad  Bin  Ali Majaylawiya, from his uncle Muhammad Bin Anu Al Qasim, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad Bin Khalid,  from  his father,  from  Muhammad  bin  Yahya  Al  Khazaaz,  from  Ghayaas  Bin  Ibrahim, from Al Sadiq (asws), from his (asws) forefathers (asws), has said:
Amir-ul-Momineen (asws),  said  in  his (asws) speech:  ‘Islam  is  submission’,  until he (asws) said: ‘The believer takes his religion from his Lord (azwj),  and  does  not take it from his opinion’.

When it has explicitly been stated more than ten times throughout Ghadir Khumm that there's no room for interpreting its contents any other way than it's intended way, when the Prophet (saww) was asking people to take an oath on this very matter by explaining it so clearly people knew what they were swearing upon, and when there's even more ahadith of the Masoomeen (as) confirming that very one fact about there being no room for excuse anymore, there is, in fact, no room for excuse anymore.

The stance of the (Akhbari) Shias is: if you find an explicit hadith on a matter, you do its taqleed. If you don't, you're advised to err on the side of caution. If you find two contradicting ahadith, there's also a whole list of criteria to know which one to follow. And if a hadith isn't explicit enough for you, you find one who is or you simply leave it. There's absolutely no opinion nor personal interpretation or metaphorical usage of any kind in the way you're supposed to do things.

Noone in his right mind will ask you why the laws of Allah (azwj) are what they are. They might ask the Masoomeen (as) precisely because they are infallible. Otherwise, following one's own opinions by way of personal interpretation or analogy more often than not lands you on the side of falseness rather than truth, and in religion, voicing out your personal opinion, even if only as a stance, and claiming it to be part of Islam is one huge risk no informed muslim should take, regardless of their alliegances.

Everything i have said is a stance that was taken by the Masoomeen (as) and can be found in Wasa'il us-Shia, and a huge part of it has been compiled in there: https://hubeali.com/books/English-Books/Ahadith-of-Infallibles-on-Taqleed-and-Ijtihad/Ahadith-of-Infallibles-on-Taqleed-and-Ijtihad.pdf

To conclude:

Quote

H 33181 – Ahmad Bin Muhammad Bin Khalid Al Barqi in Al Mahasin from his father, from Al Qasim Bin Muhammad Al Jawhari, from Habib Al Khash’ami, and from Al Nasar Ibn Suweyd, from Yahya Al Halbi, from Ibn Muskaan, who from Habib who has narrated the following from ‘Abu Abdullah (asws):
Abu Abdullah (asws) said: ‘There is no one more beloved to me (asws) than you. The people have adopted different ways, from them are those that take from their desires, and from them are those that take from their opinions, and you take from the original orders being given to you’.

Quote

H 33185 - It  has been  narrated from Abu  Mahboob  or  others from  Mathni Al-Hanaat from Abu Baseer that he said to Abu Ja’far (asws):
We want something from you but cannot find in the Book or Sunnah, shall we say it as per our judgement?’ He (asws) replied: ‘No! If you get it right you will get no reward for it, and if you get it wrong you will have ascribed a lie to Allah (azwj).

Quote

In the Tafseer of Imam Hassan Al Askari (asws) – H 26
In a message of Amir-ul-Momineen (asws):
‘O group of our Shiites and the claimants to be those that love us (asws), beware of the people of opinion for they are the enemies of the Sunnah. Ahadith have run away from their memories and they have no intention of protecting the Sunnah. They have taken the servants of Allah (azwj) as their followers and their wealth to be their own riches. After having witnessed this, a lot of people have become obedient to them just like dogs.
They have snatched away the rights from the rightful people and have become like the true Imams and they are from the ignorant ones and the unbelievers and the accursed. When they are asked about something they don’t know about, they do not admit their ignorance, but make use of opinion and go astray and lead others astray.’

Wa Salam.

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Proof in context to the all-famous hadith that the one sect that makes it, does not accept sects:

I.

H14731 –Muhammad Bin yahya,from Ahmad Bin Muhammad Bin Isa, from Ibn Mahboub, from Jameel Bin Salih, from Abu Khalid Al-Kabuly, who has narrated the following:

Then he (Abu Ja’far) said: ‘The Jews differed, from after Musa (Moses) and separated into seventy- one sects, one of which will be in the Paradise and seventy sects would be in the Fire. And the Christians separated, from after Isa (Jesus) into seventy-two sects, one of which would be in the Paradise and seventy-one of the sects would be in the Fire. And this community will separate after its Prophet into seventy-three sects. Seventy-two sects would be in the Fire and one sect would be in the Paradise. And from these seventy-three sects, thirteen would be of those who claim to be in our Wilayah and show affection to us. Twelve sects from these would be in the Fire and one sect would be in the Paradise. And sixty sects from the rest of the people would be in the Fire’.

al-Kafi Vol 8 

II.

According to the Arabic text the word used for sect is Firqa / فرقة which is root word  Farq /فرق . Farq in its most basic meaning is different.

In the Quran we have:

وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِحَبْلِ اللَّهِ جَمِيعًا وَلَا تَفَرَّقُوا ۚ وَاذْكُرُوا نِعْمَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ إِذْ كُنتُمْ أَعْدَاءً فَأَلَّفَ بَيْنَ قُلُوبِكُمْ فَأَصْبَحْتُم بِنِعْمَتِهِ إِخْوَانًا وَكُنتُمْ عَلَىٰ شَفَا حُفْرَةٍ مِّنَ النَّارِ فَأَنقَذَكُم مِّنْهَا ۗ كَذَٰلِكَ يُبَيِّنُ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ آيَاتِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ - 3:103

And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided (or become into sects). And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided.

 

... This above verse tells us clearly not to divide into sects. To take this verse further into context, the previous verse tells us to die as Muslim. The verse before the previous talks about verses of Allah and the Prophet among us. So, again Shehada material of Ashhadu an la ilaha ilallah waMuhamadin Rasul Allah.

Then, two verses later it tells us again not nufariq, or divide. So obviously the right thing to do is advocate not to be into groups, hold on the rope of Allah preceded by Allah and the prophet, and furthermore die as "Muslim".

 

 

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1 hour ago, 313 Seeker said:

OK, that's your opinion. Not mine! 

No, it isn't. It's the ruling of the Masoomeen (as). You'd know if you read my quoted hadiths.

54 minutes ago, 313 Seeker said:

This above verse tells us clearly not to divide into sects. To take this verse further into context, the previous verse tells us to die as Muslim. The verse before the previous talks about verses of Allah and the Prophet among us. So, again Shehada material of Ashhadu an la ilaha ilallah waMuhamadin Rasul Allah.

You are not qualified to interpret verses of the Holy Qur'an, let alone turn them the way you wish to understand them. I could argue that the Ummah became divided when they decided not to follow Ali (as) and it would be your word against mine... except it's not the case, once again it's the word of the Prophet (saww) versus yours:

Quote

On verse 103: “And hold fast by the rope of Allah all together and do not separate”
Ibne Abbas (ra) narrates: “One day I was with Rasool Allah (saw) when a man came and asked Rasool Allah (saw) regarding this ayah. The man asked, “Who is the rope of Allah?” RasoolAllah (saw) replied, “I am the Prophet of Allah and Ali (asws) is the rope of Allah.” The man left saying, “I believe in the Prophet of Allah and hold fast to His Rope”.
(Tafseer e Furat pg 14)

And we seek protection from Allah (azwj) from the strayed ones,

Wa Salam.

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30 minutes ago, SamAlFarsi said:

No, it isn't. It's the ruling of the Masoomeen (as). You'd know if you read my quoted hadiths.

You are not qualified to interpret verses of the Holy Qur'an, let alone turn them the way you wish to understand them. I could argue that the Ummah became divided when they decided not to follow Ali (as) and it would be your word against mine... except it's not the case, once again it's the word of the Prophet (saww) versus yours:

And we seek protection from Allah (azwj) from the strayed ones,

Wa Salam.

Some people just don’t get it, no matter how much proof you give them. They just want to live by their own rules in their own little world

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1 hour ago, SamAlFarsi said:

No, it isn't. It's the ruling of the Masoomeen (as). You'd know if you read my quoted hadiths.

Yes it is your opinion based on your interpretation of those hadiths.  

I have my own interpretations and you have yours. You believe the prophet meant one thing and I believe he meant something else. That's normal. And you never even met the prophet, and if you did you still couldn't be 100% sure what he means,  because most of his personal friends didn't get it either. But they all have opinions like you and me. We all have opinions. And if you think yours is 100% right then you might as well make a statue of yourself and worship yourself as an all knowing God. 

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"opinion" is when we have and spread opinions that are far away from Quran and known hadiths that are in tune with Quran. 

Scholars only job is to point to those two. 

So any scholar who claims the sunna of Allah is to accept tafriq or sects is actually following their own opinions away from Quran and prophet. 

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3 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

Yes it is your opinion based on your interpretation of those hadiths.  

Oh well, i guess i should apologize for understanding plain and simple english when it's written in a clear and explicit manner, right? And every single speaking and baligh person should too, since noone can clearly understand anything. That includes you, by the way.

Sarcasm aside, if you believe every single thing that comes out of people's mouths is an opinion, who are you to enforce your own opinions as truth over and above those of the Masoomeen (as)? As far as your history of posts go, that is what you've kept doing over and over in multiple forum threads, claiming you know better than anyone without relying on anything.

3 hours ago, 313 Seeker said:

So any scholar who claims the sunna of Allah is to accept tafriq or sects is actually following their own opinions away from Quran and prophet. 

You don't even realize you're following your own passionated opinions and biaised, self-centered views. Again, who are you to speak as if you knew better than the Prophet (saww) himself?

I suggest you to take your baseless "truths" elsewhere, and may Allah (azwj) keep me far away from such abasement and ignorance.

Edited by SamAlFarsi

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On 11/23/2018 at 6:15 AM, SamAlFarsi said:

suggest you to take your baseless "truths" elsewhere, and may Allah (azwj) keep me far away from such abasement and ignorance

I could say the same about you and any scholar who supports your opinion. Numbers don't help because the Qur'an says "most of them don't understand", and this world is drenched with thousands upon millions of scholars from all walks. I believe the scholars are right who are non sectarian and who follow what Prophet and Allah said above in the aforementioned hadith and Qur'an, while everyone else is leading to hell. Time will tell and let's wait. I'm also waiting.

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