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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is It Permissible To...

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It's bit of a cultural dislike in some socieities. Girls riding bikes or motorbikes are seen as spectacles to be jeered at, but this was how it was with women car drivers a 2/3 decades ago. But drivin

I wish i could ride a bike but i feel immodest because not only it will draw attention (its uncommon for hijabis to ride bikes) , i have to bend to drive the bike and well, when you bend, your curves

Marbles, are you joking? No its not haram as long as its considered normal in the country you live in. I for example live in Holland where everyone rides a bike, so its normal to do it too. So no its

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You got to be kidding me. :o Are you insane?! Is that how you exercise your personal ejtehad?

How about this toy here with saddle. Haram or Halal?

born-to-play-the-pony-stable-60cm-light-brown-rocking-horse.jpg

(salam)

The hadith is about sitting on saddle, not keeping/owning a saddle. Again, I just posted the hadith so there's no issue of ijtehad involved here. I don't believe in it.

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(salam)

So what is you point really. You post bunch of hadiths because you can? Is that the game you are playing here Bhooka?

Bicycle has a seat, not a saddle.

Enough already Bhooka. You are misguiding people. Fear Allah swt.

(wasalam)

Ma'am, even though you're the admin, but with due respect I'm forced to say that you're being pretty unfair. Few days back you claimed that I've called going to hawza haram but you did not produce my post as quote(because obviously no such post exists) to prove your statement. And now you are questioning me about playing games.

I just posted the ahadith. I didn't mention anything about bicycle or horse riding since the ahadith only mentions saddle and neither did I use the word haram(I've explained this point in reply to calm). Anyhow, just for your information, bicycle seat is also referred to as saddle.(again, I'm not forwarding this as a religious proof)

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=bicycle+saddle&aq=0&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=83f87efc6f926f13

Again, I just posted the ahadith because I thought it may be relevant here and to provide a perspective as per ahadith. The only "dishonesty" I did was to not to translate the word "furooj" in the second hadith, but I believe that is justified in the "sister's forum".

BTW, be reminded that as per ahadith it's an extremely meritorious act to disseminate ahadith(Insh'Allah I'll post those ahadith as well) unlike giving fatwas(like the clerics) which has been condemned in ahadith(insh'Allah I'll post them as well).

Please, I request you to stop making such statements.

Edited by Bhooka_Bhairiya
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As per ahadith, it's not allowed for women to sit on a saddle since it would lead them to fujoor(evil, sins etc).

Man la yah dhuruhul faqih:

- æ (äåì Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã Ãä íÑßÈ ÇáÓÑÌ ÈÝÑÌ) íÚäí ÇáãÑÃÉ ÊÑßÈ ÈÓÑÌ.

- æÞÇá ÃãíÑÇáãÄãäíä Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: (áÇ ÊÍãáæÇ ÇáÝÑæÌ Úáì ÇáÓÑæÌ ÝÊåíÌæåä ááÝÌæÑ).

http://www.al-shia.o...art=180&end=190

This hadith can only be accepted if it has a certain context to it e.g War of Jammal and Ayesha

To generally imply from this hadith that women are not allowed to sit on a saddle is illogical. Afterall, women did travel back in those days. And the Qafilas used to have camels and horses. And its not like Muslim men would ride on camels/horses but their women would walk ......

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This hadith can only be accepted if it has a certain context to it e.g War of Jammal and Ayesha

To generally imply from this hadith that women are not allowed to sit on a saddle is illogical. Afterall, women did travel back in those days. And the Qafilas used to have camels and horses. And its not like Muslim men would ride on camels/horses but their women would walk ......

It is recommended that women sit in a cradle* when riding a horse/camel. As far as the "limited to a certain context such as jamal/ayesha" argument constantly parroted by feminists to override the countless "anti women" ahadith in our primary sources is concerned, it's up to them to provide ahadith to prove their point.

*I don't know if I've used the right word here. It's like a big box which is tied on top of a horse/camel. In some traditional weddings in subcontinent the bride and groom sit in a similar setup.

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It is recommended that women sit in a cradle* when riding a horse/camel.

A recommendation is firstly not an order which has to be performed as a compulsory act. And for my own reference, kindly provide ahadith which reccommends women to sit in a cradle (only).

Also, we are living in the 21st century. We drive cars, fly aeroplanes and ride bikes. That means someone has to sit down, research hadith literature and establish principles which help confirm if women can use these vehicles. And that is why we have scholars.

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Also, we are living in the 21st century. We drive cars, fly aeroplanes and ride bikes. That means someone has to sit down, research hadith literature and establish principles which help confirm if women can use these vehicles. And that is why we have scholars.

Perhaps you don't realize that at least one of those, Sayyid Khamenei, considers it impermissible (in public) as well:

Q: Is it permissible for women, despite their need for proper covering, to ride bicycles and motor bikes? If so, please list the conditions.

A: A women must avoid circumstances and actions which require her to be self-conscious of her appearance in front of ghairul-mahram. Riding a bicycle or motor bike in a public place, by a pedestrian walkway, or in view of others leads to corruption (in light of fulfilling the above mentioned criteria), and thus, is not permissible.

http://www.islam-pure.de/imam/fatwas/29questions.htm#-%20Permissibility%20of%20women%20riding%20bicycles%20and%20motor%20bikes- Permissibility of women riding bicycles and motor bikes

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^

I respect the dear Scholars opinion but I would have to slightly disagree with it because this particular answer seems to be limited to a certain region i-e the Muslim society. I realise that women riding bikes and bicycles get a lot of attention in many Muslim countries like Iran, Iraq, Saudia, Pakistan, Afghanistan e.t.c where our young generation (actually men) are sexually frustrated. But such is not true in many other countries where Muslims reside. I don't see women in other countries getting much attention in a way that it leads to corruption.

I personally believe that if Muslims from other parts of the world share their perspective and bring forth this point to the Esteemed Scholars office, it will consider it.

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(salam)

The hadith is about sitting on saddle, not keeping/owning a saddle. Again, I just posted the hadith so there's no issue of ijtehad involved here. I don't believe in it.

You don't believe in ijtihad? So you believe everyone should be allowed to interpret Islam the way he/she wishes?

God forbid we live in such a society. It would be quite lost.

You might want to read up on those feminists you so hate - they interpret Islam as they wish, do they not? Or read up on those who claim they can be gay Muslims - they interpret Islam as they wish, do they not? Is this the future you foresee for Islam?

In reference to the bike thing though, it's kind of funny. Iranian women are seen in their chadors on their motorbikes all the time.

Edited by zeinabiyya
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You don't believe in ijtihad? So you believe everyone should be allowed to interpret Islam the way he/she wishes?

God forbid we live in such a society. It would be quite lost.

You might want to read up on those feminists you so hate - they interpret Islam as they wish, do they not? Or read up on those who claim they can be gay Muslims - they interpret Islam as they wish, do they not? Is this the future you foresee for Islam?

Lol, I was hoping you'll miss this thread and I'll escape your severe scolding on this one at least, after having been on the receiving end in 3 or 4 threads already. Even my elder sister doesn't scold me this much. :D

Did you notice.....Macisaac seems to implicitly support me on this one again. :!!!: :!!!:

Sidenote: Seriously speaking, Insh'Allah when I'm free I'll post further ahadith to clear up the issues. BTW, for now you may be interested in reading post#11 here:

I've included another hadith, defining the term mujtahid so that people will know who's the true mujtahid since there's so much hype about "follow a mujtahid...".

Edited by Bhooka_Bhairiya
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Lol, I was hoping you'll miss this thread and I'll escape your severe scolding on this one at least, after having been on the receiving end in 3 or 4 threads already. Even my elder sister doesn't scold me this much. :D

Did you notice.....Macisaac seems to implicitly support me on this one again. w00t.gifw00t.gif

Sidenote: Seriously speaking, Insh'Allah when I'm free I'll post further ahadith to clear up the issues. BTW, for now you may be interested in reading post#11 here:

http://www.shiachat....fferent-marjas/

I've included another hadith, defining the term mujtahid so that people will know who's the true mujtahid since there's so much hype about "follow a mujtahid...".

Actually, as to that post, I've already answered your stupid definitions on what a mujtahid is in another post I'm sure you've read. Mujtahid does not mean the same thing in every context, and your translations fail pretty epically.

Stop misleading people! "So that people will know who's the true mujtahid"?! For goodness' sakes, did you not read or comprehend any part of what I wrote? What's your answer, does everyone interpret Islam the way he/she wishes? Do we believe a Wahhabi or a kaafir for that matter who reads 500 ayahs a night, locks his women in the basement, and has forty ahadith memorized has the right to propagate the filthy Islam he derives of his own accord?!

This is truly frightening. I hope no one here takes your opinions seriously.

And by the way, brother macisaac isn't a marjaa himself. Please stop flaunting his support for your opinions as some kind of certificate for correctness. He isn't infallible either. We are all entitled to our opinions on this forum.

salam.gifwa

Edited by zeinabiyya
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(salam)

Let me ask you guys (people who keep on interpreting hadiths as they see fit).

How did the women in the time of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) migrate from Makkah to Medina during the Hijrah? How did Sayyida Fatima as-Zahra (sa) arrived in Medina?

How did Sayyida Zayneb (sa) arrive in Karbala? Did she walk from Medina?

Perhaps you don't realize that at least one of those, Sayyid Khamenei, considers it impermissible (in public) as well:

Q: Is it permissible for women, despite their need for proper covering, to ride bicycles and motor bikes? If so, please list the conditions.

A: A women must avoid circumstances and actions which require her to be self-conscious of her appearance in front of ghairul-mahram. Riding a bicycle or motor bike in a public place, by a pedestrian walkway, or in view of others leads to corruption (in light of fulfilling the above mentioned criteria), and thus, is not permissible.

http://www.islam-pure.de/imam/fatwas/29questions.htm#-%20Permissibility%20of%20women%20riding%20bicycles%20and%20motor%20bikes- Permissibility of women riding bicycles and motor bikes

This fatwa is about women ridding in public places. Where is the fatwa about women ridding privately in her 1 acre farm behind a 10 feet high fence/wall?

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Sidenote: Seriously speaking, Insh'Allah when I'm free I'll post further ahadith to clear up the issues. BTW, for now you may be interested in reading post#11 here:

http://www.shiachat....fferent-marjas/

I've included another hadith, defining the term mujtahid so that people will know who's the true mujtahid since there's so much hype about "follow a mujtahid...".

A similar argument is also quite popular amongst zakirs in Pakistan who dislike Usuli Institution. But I disagree with this kind of understanding of such ahadith (in post #11) for the very reason that principally we're supposed to follow the scholar whom we believe/trust to be most knowledgeable or whose argument we sincerely agree with. It makes sense.....But it doesn't make sense to trust and follow a person just cz he recites 500 verses in a night. I say that bcz Shia Islam has always focussed on the reasoning behind its ideologies and the logic behind its laws.

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A similar argument is also quite popular amongst zakirs in Pakistan who dislike Usuli Institution. But I disagree with this kind of understanding of such ahadith (in post #11) for the very reason that principally we're supposed to follow the scholar whom we believe/trust to be most knowledgeable or whose argument we sincerely agree with. It makes sense.....But it doesn't make sense to trust and follow a person just cz he recites 500 verses in a night. I say that bcz Shia Islam has always focussed on the reasoning behind its ideologies and the logic behind its laws.

But the hadith(post# 11) doesn't tell us to follow him. That was the point, to show as per hadith the meaning of mujtahid and also that we aren't necessarily obliged to follow him since the hadith doesn't tell us to.

BTW, if you don't mind, are you an usooli? I thought you were non usooli after seeing your post in the "tazia,alam ,taboot" thread.

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But the hadith(post# 11) doesn't tell us to follow him. That was the point, to show as per hadith the meaning of mujtahid and also that we aren't necessarily obliged to follow him since the hadith doesn't tell us to.

BTW, if you don't mind, are you an usooli? I thought you were non usooli after seeing your post in the "tazia,alam ,taboot" thread.

Ofcourse no one is pushing us to follow a Mujtahid. But if i seek consultation or the truth regarding a subject matter, shouldn't I consider the scholars whom I think of as most learn't and most trusted ? And above that, those scholars who present explanations which make sense to me ?

As for your other question, I am neither Usooli, nor Non-Usooli.

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Ofcourse no one is pushing us to follow a Mujtahid. But if i seek consultation or the truth regarding a subject matter, shouldn't I consider the scholars whom I think of as most learn't and most trusted ?

Definitely nothing wrong in this, i.e. not doing taqleed per se but consulting him(them) as needed on different issues. Of course, this implies that these scholars should then not be limited to the living ones but also include past/classical ones.

And above that, those scholars who present explanations which make sense to me ?

Unless you meant something else, this freaks me out. Religious laws are not such that they would cater to everyone's taste. The scholars' job is just to tell the law, give further explanation if required and if actually found in our sources. For a scholar, he should never give personal opinion. Although there's nothing wrong in giving personal opinion if it is clearly indicated that it's an opinion, but the case with scholars is different. As per ahadith scholars have to be very careful with what they say because they may confuse the people.

Edited by Bhooka_Bhairiya
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Definitely nothing wrong in this, i.e. not doing taqleed per se but consulting him(them) as needed on different issues. Of course, this implies that these scholars should then not be limited to the living ones but also include past/classical ones.

I believe in learning from all scholars; those from the past, the present and the future.

Unless you meant something else, this freaks me out. Religious laws are not such that they would cater to everyone's taste. The scholars' job is just to tell the law, give further explanation if required and if actually found in our sources. For a scholar, he should never give personal opinion. Although there's nothing wrong in giving personal opinion if it is clearly indicated that it's an opinion, but the case with scholars is different. As per ahadith scholars have to be very careful with what they say because they may confuse the people.

The scholars' job of just sharing the ruling is what the likes of me want to change and make history. In Islam, there is aqeedah (ideology) and there are set of jusrisprudential laws. As per shia school of thought, aqeeda (ideology) has to be based on reasoning and all laws have logic. Now ofcourse we have plenty of narrations re; logic for laws that we inherited from our Prophet and Imams. As for todays world, it makes sense for our scholars to adapt principles of law (as per Quran, the Prophet and the Imams) in order to deduce new ones. Point being, laws are deduced from certain principles. And principles are based on sources. There is nothing wrong in learning how certain rulings are deduced. It is not a matter of pick n choose (lets leave it to Allah to judge who is sincere or insincere). It is a matter of understanding and accepting what makes more sense .....

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This hadith can only be accepted if it has a certain context to it e.g War of Jammal and Ayesha

To generally imply from this hadith that women are not allowed to sit on a saddle is illogical. Afterall, women did travel back in those days. And the Qafilas used to have camels and horses. And its not like Muslim men would ride on camels/horses but their women would walk ......

I loathe to quote that other guy, so I am simply quoting your post. The Hadith does not seem to be talking about saddles inciting females towards evil (the general implication). Its morphology is more suited to the Imam speaking about the contact of the genitals rousing women and exciting them towards further immorality. This is also in line with the fatwa of Sayyid al-Seestani, the link to which I have given in this post here:

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Oh Lord :wacko: lookin at tge title I thought OMG it's gnna b a right serious topic tht ther is nit even a HINT in the title on wats it bout n .. Mayb coz male users aren't allowed to see.. :huh:

No it's NOT allowed.. IT IS haram.. The only way is tht u shud get a remote control bike n jus ride tht arnd.. All u gtta do is hav the feel of ridin a bike right..?! :)

*walks out* :) *closes door* :)

*bangin head on the wall* :wacko: wher is common sense gone man..!!!!!

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As per ahadith, it's not allowed for women to sit on a saddle since it would lead them to fujoor(evil, sins etc).

Man la yah dhuruhul faqih:

- æ (äåì Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã Ãä íÑßÈ ÇáÓÑÌ ÈÝÑÌ) íÚäí ÇáãÑÃÉ ÊÑßÈ ÈÓÑÌ.

- æÞÇá ÃãíÑÇáãÄãäíä Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: (áÇ ÊÍãáæÇ ÇáÝÑæÌ Úáì ÇáÓÑæÌ ÝÊåíÌæåä ááÝÌæÑ).

http://www.al-shia.org/html/ara/books/?mod=hadith&start=180&end=190

Oh sry wanted to Copy it for the Bike And riding Thread

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Salaam, I would just like to note that a women's bike is made so that one can ride in a dress (although ive never tried that myself)

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/nickpit/nickpit1106/nickpit110600008/9811456-woman-in-blue-dress-riding-an-old-bike-in-green-nature.jpg

You can see the difference here, the blue bike is a women's bike:

http://www.bicycle-touring-guide.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/the-difference-between-men-and-womens-road-bikes-204x300.png

Edited by :Ruffles
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Come on guys.. All hijabis here ride a bike, even in full niqab! Why wouldn't it be allowed? It's easy, fast, and evironment friendly  :P

 

Maybe someone can explain the hadith..  

 

It's bit of a cultural dislike in some socieities. Girls riding bikes or motorbikes are seen as spectacles to be jeered at, but this was how it was with women car drivers a 2/3 decades ago. But driving cars has now become an accepted norm pretty much everywhere where women are allowed to drive.

 

There is a problem of security in the streets too, at least here in my bedamned country. If I had a teenage daughter I'd not let her ride a bike in the streets.

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I wish i could ride a bike but i feel immodest because not only it will draw attention (its uncommon for hijabis to ride bikes) , i have to bend to drive the bike and well, when you bend, your curves start showing..

But if i lived in a place like Iran where its common to ride bikes all the time (does not draw attention) and where all women wear chador to ride on motors, maybe i would consider it

Fatima alzahra would ride a camel and a horse :) it was common at their place and she would wear modest clothing. So if you respect these two conditions, it is fine

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I wish i could ride a bike but i feel immodest because not only it will draw attention (its uncommon for hijabis to ride bikes) , i have to bend to drive the bike and well, when you bend, your curves start showing..

But if i lived in a place like Iran where its common to ride bikes all the time (does not draw attention) and where all women wear chador to ride on motors, maybe i would consider it

Fatima alzahra would ride a camel and a horse :) it was common at their place and she would wear modest clothing. So if you respect these two conditions, it is fine

 

Sis, you don't really have to bend. It depends on the kind of bike, there are bikes on which you only have to sit straight like you're sitting on a chair and just stretch out your hand to steer.

 

I guess it depends on the society/country you live in then.. What a shame though.

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I wish i could ride a bike but i feel immodest because not only it will draw attention (its uncommon for hijabis to ride bikes) , i have to bend to drive the bike and well, when you bend, your curves start showing..

But if i lived in a place like Iran where its common to ride bikes all the time (does not draw attention) and where all women wear chador to ride on motors, maybe i would consider it

Fatima alzahra would ride a camel and a horse :) it was common at their place and she would wear modest clothing. So if you respect these two conditions, it is fine

 

It's the opposite actually. Although it's becoming common in Iran to see girls ride a bike but you still draw attention if you ride a bike there, but not in Canada, even with hijab on.

 

It is exactly because Muslim girls are supposed to cover up and hide themselves and stay invisible and discreet that riding a bike becomes an issue for the visual ceremony it offers to prying eyes in the streets of the Muslim countries.

 

This cultural hangup does not exist in Western societies and so you could bike away anywhere without attracting unwanted attention. But you may attract attention of your coreligionists though, which is a problem Muslim girls often discuss here. "Why this Muslim guy was hitting on me even though I'm in hijab".

Edited by Marbles
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