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In the Name of God بسم الله

Womens Method Of Prayer

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(salam) (bismillah) I love how our scholars answer questions SO DEEPLY, with SO many references, and hadeeth, and gradings of hadeeth to back up their fatwa. (salam)

This is speaking in general. Not specifically for salaah. Therefore it is inappropriate to single it out as something recommended in a list of recommended things for salaah alone. It gives the wron

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You sound like you are still in doubt? lol

lol, you really wanna play that game? :squeez:

Good luck for Arabic Insha'Allah, and perhaps it is because there isn't much demand of such a brief explanation in tauzeeh (translations) - at least not from looking at the people around me, lol. I know plenty, who claim to be following Ayatullah Sistani but haven't read a single page from his 450 pages tauzeeh in Urdu, they only follow from what they hear. If they can't read 450 pages of rules about common daily life issues, doubt they'd like to read a few volumes. I personally would like to see such a translation though.

Thanx,

Yeh I know what you mean, who are we kidding, most people are like that, no? And those who are like that usually don't hang around in religion forums from my experience. Someone who changes taqlid to Sistani, because he is the learned shia man on earth atm beside al Qaim(ajf), wants to know and demands a brief explanation of his rulings. :angel: I suppose one who can't read 450 pages of rules, wouldn't be bothered asking the marja questions and/or take in interest in their work, I mean..these people *follow what they hear* as you so correctly put it.

Personally, I am willing to read anything that pertains to religion, provided I can read it (and for arabic, it's a no for now)

Wasalaam

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Phoenix:

Is the position in the pictures only for tashahud or is this position also for inbetween the two sujood and other short times of sitting?

Also, from my understanding you're not a native speaker of Arabic, is it possible you also may be understanding the Arabic incorrectly? Do you have experience with ja'fari women outside your family/location doing it the exact same way?

The Hadith is talking in general about the sitting position, so yes that would include the sitting in between the sajdatayn. It *might* also include the momentary sitting while going into and while rising from the sajdah.

I am indeed not a native speaker of Arabic but I don't know what relation that has to my understanding of classical Arabic, which is what I have learnt and which is the one used in aHadith and the works of the jurists. While I do not lay claim to understanding all of classical Arabic, I have misunderstood neither the Hadith nor the fataawa. If you or anyone else finds the translation objectionable, bring forth your own and I shall respond.

I have no experience with any Shi`ah female outside of my family save two - one middle-aged, who I had observed performing her Salah incorporating some of the mustaHabbaat when she was much younger (and I a pre-teen) and another elderly (her daughters do not follow her in this) - and have not come across anyone outside of my location performing their prayers with the istiHbab in the postures. Reason why I mention the women of the older generations of my family is due to the presence of fuqahaa' in the earlier generations of the family, and by fuqahaa', I do not mean mujtahideen in particular, but those who reached the stage of BuHuth al-Kharij.

Devout

Don't expect your questions to be answered well (and correctly) if you send them to najaf.org. The London office comprises untrained, unqualified staff who have been recruited merely on the merit of their ability to understand, write and speak fluently in Arabic and English (I don't know about other languages). Questions directed to the sistani.org site however are usually returned with the seal of Sayyid al-Seestani; so if you want a more authoritative answer, you might want to send in questions there instead but at the same time be prepared to wait for the response - sometimes they are "quick" (three weeks to a month) , sometimes they take upto a year or more (and might not even be relevant to the question asked :squeez:).

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The Hadith is talking in general about the sitting position, so yes that would include the sitting in between the sajdatayn. It *might* also include the momentary sitting while going into and while rising from the sajdah.

I am indeed not a native speaker of Arabic but I don't know what relation that has to my understanding of classical Arabic, which is what I have learnt and which is the one used in aHadith and the works of the jurists. While I do not lay claim to understanding all of classical Arabic, I have misunderstood neither the Hadith nor the fataawa. If you or anyone else finds the translation objectionable, bring forth your own and I shall respond.

(bismillah)

I only meant that statement about you not being a native speaker to say perhaps there is a higher chance of a mistake in translation since you were not raised speaking it, as with avjar who is also a student of Arabic, though I'm also not even saying there is a mistake. I don't know how long or extensive you have studied Arabic, so it was a simple question on my part to get a better understanding of your posts.

And I am not nearly knowledgeable enough in the Arabic language to bring an accurate rival translation of my own to prove anything at all. I'm not looking for a name or a reputation booster so I'm not going to pretend or try to live up to anything.

Edited by bi_ithnillaah
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(bismillah)

I only meant that statement about you not being a native speaker to say perhaps there is a higher chance of a mistake in translation since you were not raised speaking it,

Side note, but considering fusha Arabic isn't spoken today by the people, being a native speaker isn't really meaningful to understanding it properly. Actually, it can work the other way around sometimes, as some native speakers might try to understand the fusha through their own dialect which can be pretty far off from the classical, leading to misunderstanding of meaning. Often the earliest grammars in Arabic were written by non-Arabs, with one of the greatest being Sibawayh, who was Persian.

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This sounds difficult...

only because they have you now squatting rather than sitting, no one by the way squats, it is better to be shown by someone than to try to understand from reading a book. as no shia women squat, and interpret this to mean sitting kind of to the side, and the scholars wifes all pray salat also in this manner and dont squat, I would mistrust someone trying to interpret this by reading a book and deciding what it might look like rather than looking to the wives of those who are learned men.

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only because they have you now squatting rather than sitting, no one by the way squats, it is better to be shown by someone than to try to understand from reading a book. as no shia women squat, and interpret this to mean sitting kind of to the side, and the scholars wifes all pray salat also in this manner and dont squat, I would mistrust someone trying to interpret this by reading a book and deciding what it might look like rather than looking to the wives of those who are learned men.

Sunni women pray like this as well...

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Sunni women pray like this as well...

they squat?

the thing about salat is that it is always the natural position and state, women draw in, because this is the natural state, women fold their hands on their chest due to this being the natural state, men have hands down, and pray salat more open, as this is the natural state of a man, tell me if squating is the natural position for a women to sit?

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^^Thats the problem I have, I have never seen or heard of sisters praying in that way i.e. squating but I have seen them sitting like Sunni's and maybe thats becuase they were quite old and not physically able to squat However the jafari Fiqh manual I have has a pic of the womens position of Tashahud and shows the women/girl in a Squatting position but if this is the case is it wajib or only mustahab and why dont any shia sisters know about this and why cant it be found in any marjae's ruling but only in obscure fiqh manuls and hadiths, Are we sure this position wasn't lost in USUL and only championed by khabar.

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^^Thats the problem I have, I have never seen or heard of sisters praying in that way i.e. squating but I have seen them sitting like Sunni's and maybe thats becuase they were quite old and not physically able to squat However the jafari Fiqh manual I have has a pic of the womens position of Tashahud and shows the women/girl in a Squatting position but if this is the case is it wajib or only mustahab and why dont any shia sisters know about this and why cant it be found in any marjae's ruling but only in obscure fiqh manuls and hadiths, Are we sure this position wasn't lost in USUL and only championed by khabar.

but we cannot say this squatting is what is being discussed, as it still says sitting, and some hadith definitely point more to the sitting as you say the sunnis do (this I have no knowledge of) so I am not willing to say it is some lost position, as you know, everything about salah is in mans/womens natural state, and there is nothing natural about squatting unless you are using the restroom! this is not a natural position for a women to sit, so we have to say it is not telling women to squat, but trying to explain in writing an actual sitting position and as you can see this is something much easier shown than written!

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Assalam alaykum.

So to clarify, these postures and positions are mustahab, but it is permissible for a woman to pray exactly the same [as men]. Is this correct?

How come Sistani doesn't really talk much about these postures and positions in his English works (although I may have missed it)?

Peace.

Edited by Perseverance
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^^Thats the problem I have, I have never seen or heard of sisters praying in that way i.e. squating but I have seen them sitting like Sunni's and maybe thats becuase they were quite old and not physically able to squat However the jafari Fiqh manual I have has a pic of the womens position of Tashahud and shows the women/girl in a Squatting position but if this is the case is it wajib or only mustahab and why dont any shia sisters know about this and why cant it be found in any marjae's ruling but only in obscure fiqh manuls and hadiths, Are we sure this position wasn't lost in USUL and only championed by khabar.

Assalam alaykum.

So to clarify, these postures and positions are mustahab, but it is permissible for a woman to pray exactly the same [as men]. Is this correct?

Answered:

Placing the hands on the thighs and all other postures mentioned are only the istiHbab in Salah for women being mentioned and they are not an obligation.

As for,

How come Sistani doesn't really talk much about these postures and positions in his English works (although I may have missed it)?

The posture explained in this topic isn't mentioned I think but other points are:

1053. It is Mustahab for women that while performing Ruku, they should keep their hands higher than their knees, and should not push back their knees.

1100. .....and woman should first place her knees on the ground.....

1100. ......and women should place their elbows and stomachs on the ground, and should join their limbs with one another.

1113. It is Mustahab for women to keep their thighs close to each other when reciting tashahhud.

----

UndercoverBrother: The following is from Urdu tauzeeh of Ayatullah Muhammad Hussain Najafi, present under mustahabbat - self explanatory and same as phoenix described in this topic with pictures/practical example.

post-18745-12762883874208_thumb.png

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(باب 68 - العلة التى من أجلها ليس على المرأة أذان ولا اقامة) 1 - أبى رحمه الله قال: حدثنى سعد بن عبد الله عن محمد بن اسماعيل عن عيسى ابن محمد عن محمد بن ابى عمير عن حماد بن عيسى عن حريز بن عبد الله عن زرارة ابن اعين، عن ابى جعفر (ع) قال قلت له المرأة عليها اذان واقامة؟ فقال ان كانت تسمع اذان القبيلة فليس عليها شئ وإلا فليس عليها اكثر من الشهادتين لان الله تبارك وتعالى قال للرجال اقيموا الصلاة وقال للنساء واقمن الصلاة واتين الزكاة واطعن الله ورسوله، قال ثم قال: إذا قامت المرأة في الصلاة جمعت بين قدميها ولا تفرج بينهما وتضم يديها إلى صدرها لمكان ثدييها فإذا ركعت وضعت يديها فوق ركبتيها على فخذيها لئلا تطأطأ كثير افترتفع عجيزتها وإذا جلست فعلى إليتيهما ليس كما يقعد الرجل وإذا سقطت إلى السجود بدأت بالقعود بالركبتين قبل اليدين ثم تسجد لاطية بالارض فإذا كانت في جلوسها ضمت فخذيها ورفعت ركبتيها من الارض وإذا نهضت انسلت انسلالا لا ترفع عجيزتها أولا

.

Could anyone confirm if this specific version is saheeh? And this isnaad as well?

‎حدثنا أحمد بن الحسن القطان قال : حدثنا الحسن بن علي العسكري قال : حدثنا أبو عبد الله محمد بن زكريا البصري قال : حدثنا جعفر بن محمد بن عمارة ، عن أبيه عن جابر بن يزيد الجعفي قال : سمعت أبا جعفر محمد بن علي الباقر عليهما السلام يقول : ليس على النساء أذان و لا اقامة ، و لا جمعة ، و لا جماعة ، و لا عيادة المريض ، و لا اتباع الجنائز ، و لا إجهار بالتلبية ، و لا الهرولة بين الصفا و المروة ، و لا استلام الحجر الاسود ، و لا دخول الكعبة ، و لا الحلق إنما يقصرن من شعورهن ، و لا تولى المرأة القضاء ، و لا تولى الامارة ، و لا تستشار ، و لا تذبح إلا من اضطرار ، و تبدء في الوضوء بباطن الذراع و الرجل بظاهره ، و لا تمسح كما يمسح الرجال بل عليها أن تلقى الخمار من موضع مسح رأسها في صلاة الغداة و المغرب ، و تمسح عليه و في سائر الصلوات تدخل إصبعها فتمسح على رأسها من أن تلقى عنها خمارها ( 1 ) فإذا قامت في صلاتها ضمت رجليها ووضعت يديها على صدرها...

http://www.tebyan.net/index.aspx?PID=31143&BOOKID=25199&PageSize=1&LANGUAGE=2&PageIndex=586

JazakAllah khair.

Edited by avjar7
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(salam)

(bismillah)

Could anyone confirm if this specific version is saheeh? And this isnaad as well?

ýÍÏËäÇ ÃÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÇáÞØÇä ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÇáÍÓä Èä Úáí ÇáÚÓßÑí ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ÚÈÏ Çááå ãÍãÏ Èä ÒßÑíÇ ÇáÈÕÑí ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚãÇÑÉ ¡ Úä ÃÈíå Úä ÌÇÈÑ Èä íÒíÏ ÇáÌÚÝí ÞÇá : ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÌÚÝÑ ãÍãÏ Èä Úáí ÇáÈÇÞÑ ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã íÞæá : áíÓ Úáì ÇáäÓÇÁ ÃÐÇä æ áÇ ÇÞÇãÉ ¡ æ áÇ ÌãÚÉ ¡ æ áÇ ÌãÇÚÉ ¡ æ áÇ ÚíÇÏÉ ÇáãÑíÖ ¡ æ áÇ ÇÊÈÇÚ ÇáÌäÇÆÒ ¡ æ áÇ ÅÌåÇÑ ÈÇáÊáÈíÉ ¡ æ áÇ ÇáåÑæáÉ Èíä ÇáÕÝÇ æ ÇáãÑæÉ ¡ æ áÇ ÇÓÊáÇã ÇáÍÌÑ ÇáÇÓæÏ ¡ æ áÇ ÏÎæá ÇáßÚÈÉ ¡ æ áÇ ÇáÍáÞ ÅäãÇ íÞÕÑä ãä ÔÚæÑåä ¡ æ áÇ Êæáì ÇáãÑÃÉ ÇáÞÖÇÁ ¡ æ áÇ Êæáì ÇáÇãÇÑÉ ¡ æ áÇ ÊÓÊÔÇÑ ¡ æ áÇ ÊÐÈÍ ÅáÇ ãä ÇÖØÑÇÑ ¡ æ ÊÈÏÁ Ýí ÇáæÖæÁ ÈÈÇØä ÇáÐÑÇÚ æ ÇáÑÌá ÈÙÇåÑå ¡ æ áÇ ÊãÓÍ ßãÇ íãÓÍ ÇáÑÌÇá Èá ÚáíåÇ Ãä ÊáÞì ÇáÎãÇÑ ãä ãæÖÚ ãÓÍ ÑÃÓåÇ Ýí ÕáÇÉ ÇáÛÏÇÉ æ ÇáãÛÑÈ ¡ æ ÊãÓÍ Úáíå æ Ýí ÓÇÆÑ ÇáÕáæÇÊ ÊÏÎá ÅÕÈÚåÇ ÝÊãÓÍ Úáì ÑÃÓåÇ ãä Ãä ÊáÞì ÚäåÇ ÎãÇÑåÇ ( 1 ) ÝÅÐÇ ÞÇãÊ Ýí ÕáÇÊåÇ ÖãÊ ÑÌáíåÇ ææÖÚÊ íÏíåÇ Úáì ÕÏÑåÇ...

http://www.tebyan.net/index.aspx?PID=31143&BOOKID=25199&PageSize=1&LANGUAGE=2&PageIndex=586

JazakAllah khair.

This hadeeth is Da'eef (weak) because of many majhool (unknown) narrators.

ÍÏËäÇ ÃÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÇáÞØÇä ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÇáÍÓä Èä Úáí ÇáÚÓßÑí ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÃÈæ ÚÈÏ Çááå ãÍãÏ Èä ÒßÑíÇ ÇáÈÕÑí ÞÇá : ÍÏËäÇ ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚãÇÑÉ ¡ Úä ÃÈíå Úä ÌÇÈÑ Èä íÒíÏ ÇáÌÚÝí ÞÇá : ÓãÚÊ ÃÈÇ ÌÚÝÑ ãÍãÏ Èä Úáí ÇáÈÇÞÑ

ÃÍãÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÇáÞØÇä = majhool

ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚãÇÑÉ = majhool

ÃÈíå = ãÍãÏ Èä ÚãÇÑÉ = majhool

Wallaahu A'lam (And Allaah knows best)

(salam)

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(salam)

(bismillah)

The sanad is impeccable, one of our top sanad out there, just one issue within the sanad. Here is the sanad.

باب 68 - العلة التى من أجلها ليس على المرأة أذان ولا اقامة) 1 - أبى رحمه الله قال: حدثنى سعد بن عبد الله عن محمد بن اسماعيل عن عيسى ابن محمد عن محمد بن ابى عمير عن حماد بن عيسى عن حريز بن عبد الله عن زرارة ابن اعين، عن ابى جعفر (ع

'Eesa bin Muhammad = Majhool

(salam)

Edited by Nader Zaveri
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(salam)

(bismillah)

The sanad is impeccable, one of our top sanad out there, just one issue within the sanad. Here is the sanad.

ÈÇÈ 68 - ÇáÚáÉ ÇáÊì ãä ÃÌáåÇ áíÓ Úáì ÇáãÑÃÉ ÃÐÇä æáÇ ÇÞÇãÉ) 1 - ÃÈì ÑÍãå Çááå ÞÇá: ÍÏËäì ÓÚÏ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÇÓãÇÚíá Úä ÚíÓì ÇÈä ãÍãÏ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÇÈì ÚãíÑ Úä ÍãÇÏ Èä ÚíÓì Úä ÍÑíÒ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå Úä ÒÑÇÑÉ ÇÈä ÇÚíä¡ Úä ÇÈì ÌÚÝÑ (Ú

'Eesa bin Muhammad = Majhool

(salam)

(wasalam)

My guess would be that's a typo for Muhammad b. `Isa, who certainly isn't majhool.

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(salam)

(bismillah)

My guess would be that's a typo for Muhammad b. `Isa, who certainly isn't majhool.

This very well could be the case, as I was thinking this in the back of my mind. Because the tabaqa sounds very similar to Muhammad bin 'Eesaa. If anyone has a physical copy of this book, maybe they can check the sanad, and see what it says.

If that is really the case, this chain is impeccable, and one of the best sanads out there. This would be the shee'ah equivalent to a "golden chain".

(salam)

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(salam)

(bismillah)

This very well could be the case, as I was thinking this in the back of my mind. Because the tabaqa sounds very similar to Muhammad bin 'Eesaa. If anyone has a physical copy of this book, maybe they can check the sanad, and see what it says.

If that is really the case, this chain is impeccable, and one of the best sanads out there. This would be the shee'ah equivalent to a "golden chain".

(salam)

A/c to Syed al-Khoei it's Esa b. Muhammad and he said:

æáÇä Ýí ÓäÏ ÇáÇæáì ÚíÓì Èä ãÍãÏ æáã íæËÞ

http://www.ali12.com/mybooks/find.php?do=show_reslusts&id=2509&table=table_fiqh_s

w/s

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JazakAllah khair.

Well, the first hadeeth, which is saheeh in its isnaad, from al-Kafee, is actually mawquf.

وبهذه الاسانيد عن حماد بن عيسى، عن حريز، عن زرارة قال: إذا قامت المرأة في الصلاة جمعت

With the same isnaad, from Hamaad ibn 'Eesa, from Hareez, from Zuraarah who said:...

Not from an imaam.

That means, with the majhool narrators in the others, we can't confirm that phrase, "ووضعت يديها على صدرها,"--"And she places her hands on her chest"--or the mention about how a woman sits, is actually from an imaam. But, it is the understanding and wording of Zuraarah. There are other narrations in al-Kafee which report the words of the companions of the imaams alone, not on the authority of an imaam. Moreover, it can be confirmed in books like 'Ilal al-Shari' that some majhool narrators actually sometimes took narrations from al-Kafee word for word, but sometimes made additions to them which cannot be found in the saheeh versions. So, it is not impossible that there could have been an attempt to attribute this to an imaam by a later narrator who was trying to mitigate the problems in the earliest isnaad. Such as this:

حدثنا محمد بن على ماجيلويه قال: حدثنا علي بن ابراهيم عن أبيه عن حماد عن حريز عن زرارة عن أبى جعفر (ع) قال: عليك بالاقبال على صلاتك فانما يحسب لك منها ما أقبلت عليه منها بقلبك ولا تعبث فيها بيدك ولا برأسك ولا بلحيتك ولا تحدث نفسك ولا تتثأب ولا تتمط ولا تكفر فانما يفعل ذلك المجوس ولا تقولن إذا فرغت من قرائتك آمين فان شئت قلت الحمد الله رب العالمين وقال لا تلثم ولا يختفر ولا تقع على قدميك ولا تفترش ذراعيك ولا تفرقع أصابعك فان ذلك كله نقصان في الصلاة وقال لا تقم إلى الصلاة متكاسلا ولا متناعسا ولا متثاقلا فانها من خلال النفاق وقد نهى الله عزوجل المؤمنين ان يقوموا إلى الصلاة وهم سكارى - يعنى من النوم - وقال للمنافقين (وإذا قاموا إلى الصلاة قاموا كسالى يراؤن الناس ولا يذكرون الله إلا قليلا).

http://gadir.free.fr/Ar/Ehlibeyt/kutub2/Ilel-us_Serayi/Ilel-2.htm

This phrase is added by a majhool narrator onto a saheeh narration with the same matn and same isanad, but without this phrase:

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، ومحمد بن إسماعيل، عن الفضل بن شاذان جميعا، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن حريز، عن زرارة قال: قال أبوجعفر (عليه السلام): إذا قمت في الصلاة فعليك بالاقبال على صلاتك فإنما يحسب لك منها ما أقبلت عليه ولا تعبث فيها بيدك ولا برأسك ولا بلحيتك ولا تحدث نفسك ولا تتثاء ب ولا تتمط ولا تكفر (2) فإنما يفعل ذلك المجوس ولا تلثم ولا تحتفز [ولا] تفرج كما يتفرج البعير ولا تقع على قدميك ولا تفترش ذراعيك ولا تفرقع أصابعك فإن ذلك كله نقصان من الصلاة ولا تقم إلى الصلاة متكاسلا ولا متناعسا ولا متثاقلا فإنها من خلال النفاق فإن الله سبحانه نهى المؤمنين أن يقوموا إلى الصلاة وهم سكارى يعنى سكر النوم وقال للمنافقين: " وإذا قاموا إلى الصلاة قاموا كسالى يراؤن الناس ولا يذكرون الله إلا قليلا

http://www.al-shia.org/html/ara/books/lib-hadis/al-kafi-3/15.htm

It was perhaps done for polemical reasons, as might have been done in this case.

And the companions of the imaams actually were sometimes not aware of the real shariah ruling. Sometimes they were led to believe and practice as the non-Shias believed, for the sake of tuqyah.

For instance, there is this:

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلِ بْنِ بَزيعٍ، عَنِ الرِّضا عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ قالَ: سَأَلْتُ الرِّضَا عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ عَنِ الْقُنُوتِ فِي الْفَجْرِ وَالْوَتْرِ قَالَ قَبْلَ الرُّكُوعِ

http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/library/hadith/uyun_akhbar_al_reza_1/35.htm

I believe this isnaad to be saheeh. Despite Muhammad ibn Ismaa'eel al-Bazaee' being a major companion of the imaam, at the time he asked this, he believed the qunut to only be in the fajr and witr prayers, as some Sunnis did. Therefore, the understanding of a companion of an imaam is not necessarily a proof for the real shariah ruling.

And actually there's another narration from al-Kafee about how women sit, which is muwathaq, from an imaam:

5106 - 7 - علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن الحسين بن سعيد، عن فضالة، عن أبان، عن عبدالرحمن بن أبي عبدالله قال: سألته (3) عن جلوس المرأة في الصلاة قال: تضم فخذيها.

'Abd al-Rahman ibn 'AbdAllah: I asked him (Imaam Ja'far) about the sitting of a woman in salaah. He said: She joins her thighs.

Is there anything here about raising your knees and all of these things? No. In contradistinction to the sitting of a man, the narrator asks how a woman sits. Does that mean that everything is the same as a man, except for the fact that a woman joins her thighs? Perhaps. If it was really necessary to do more, why would Imaam Ja'far have not said it?

So, when a man sits for the tashahhud, his feet are crossed and underneath him, and his thighs are spread apart slightly. This might mean that a woman does it the exact same, except she tries to minimize that gap between her thighs? I feel this makes sense...and it can be deduced from this narration. Moreover, the vagueness in the narration about how a woman places her hands and the conflict between this and the narrations which say to not fold the hands lends credence to the fact that it is not attributable to an imaam, and might represent an understanding other than that of the real shariah ruling.

(salam)

Edited by avjar7
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Some might believe that by saying æÈåÐå ÇáÇÓÇäíÏ, that the isnaad is encompassing an imaam, as the previous isnaad. However, the wording does not indicate this, and if al-Kulayni included the names of two narrators, if an imaam was a part of it, why not include his name as well? Also, Sheikh al-Tusi did not interpret it this way, as he lists the isnaad in and of itself, and does not include an imaam in it:

ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ Úä Úáí Èä ÇÈÑÇåíã Úä ÃÈíå Úä ÍãÇÏ Úä ÍÑíÒ Úä ÒÑÇÑÉ ÞÇá: ÅÐÇ ÞÇãÊ ÇáãÑÃÉ Ýí ÇáÕáÇÉ ÌãÚÊ

http://www.ali12.com/mybooks/find.php?do=show_reslusts&id=1369&table=table_fiqh_s

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Salaam

I have come across conflicting methods of prayer for women as in where do they put their hands and how they sit whilst reading tashahud also from 2 urdu salah books I have the methodolgy for womens prayer is not poroperly explained and is very conflicting, can somebody please shed light on this and please no links to the male method of prayer I want to know how women must pray i.e. where to put their hands how to do sujood, rukuh, qiyam e.t.c and cannot find this on any marjae site or prayer guide.

Dear

If u realy want to know the difference then Pl read book "Illul-al-Sharae" of Sheikh Suddooq , there you will find clear instruction from Saying of Imam(a s)

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Don't expect your questions to be answered well (and correctly) if you send them to najaf.org. The London office comprises untrained, unqualified staff who have been recruited merely on the merit of their ability to understand, write and speak fluently in Arabic and English (I don't know about other languages). Questions directed to the sistani.org site however are usually returned with the seal of Sayyid al-Seestani; so if you want a more authoritative answer, you might want to send in questions there instead but at the same time be prepared to wait for the response - sometimes they are "quick" (three weeks to a month) , sometimes they take upto a year or more (and might not even be relevant to the question asked :squeez:).

(bismillah)

(salam)

Funny you should mention the impeccable website of sistani.org hehe... I have an answer actually related to this topic which I sent a while back. Here is the question I gave and the answer I received.

Shows how much knowledgeable people are working behind the scenes at the offices of our grand ayatullaahs!

That is why I quit sending questions to the office.

(salam)

post-68421-12765031526847_thumb.jpg

Edited by Abu Abdullaah
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As for,

The posture explained in this topic isn't mentioned I think but other points are:

1053. It is Mustahab for women that while performing Ruku, they should keep their hands higher than their knees, and should not push back their knees.

1100. .....and woman should first place her knees on the ground.....

1100. ......and women should place their elbows and stomachs on the ground, and should join their limbs with one another.

1113. It is Mustahab for women to keep their thighs close to each other when reciting tashahhud.

That's my point. Except for brief references, Sistani doesn't really talk much about any of these postures and positions. At least not in his translated works.

What do the bits in bold mean?

Abu Abdullaah, Lol that's funny. The only way you'll get an actual answer from Sistani himself, is if you go to ask him. I've heard of some Ziyarat trips visiting Sistani.

Peace.

Edited by Perseverance
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Brother Basim Ali I Have the same book at home with those same positions and the position of tashahud is what confused me and I wanted to know whether women actually prayed like that or not and apparently some of them do, but I dont think any Ayatollah has any difference of opinion documented but there is a difference amongs women of different regions praying in a different way.

Brother Nader do you have any more pics from that book you just posted from

To conclude what can we say that women put hands on the chest and squat during tashahud.

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Brother Basim Ali I Have the same book at home with those same positions and the position of tashahud is what confused me and I wanted to know whether women actually prayed like that or not and apparently some of them do, but I dont think any Ayatollah has any difference of opinion documented but there is a difference amongs women of different regions praying in a different way.

Brother Nader do you have any more pics from that book you just posted from

To conclude what can we say that women put hands on the chest and squat during tashahud.

Ayatullah Muhammad Hussain Najafi has mentioned the said position in his tauzeeh, read my post on previous page.

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Saheeh from al-Kafee:

http://www.alhikmeh.com/arabic/mktba/hadith/alkafi03/17.htm

æÈåÐå ÇáÇÓÇäíÏ¡ (1) Úä ÍãÇÏ Èä ÚíÓì¡ Úä ÍÑíÒ¡ Úä ÒÑÇÑÉ ÞÇá: ÅÐÇ ÞÇãÊ ÇáãÑÃÉ Ýí ÇáÕáÇÉ ÌãÚÊ Èíä ÞÏãíåÇ æáÇ ÊÝÑÌ ÈíäåãÇ æÊÖã íÏíåÇ Åáì ÕÏÑåÇ áãßÇä ËÏííåÇ ÝÅÐÇ ÑßÚÊ æÖÚÊ íÏíåÇ ÝæÞ ÑßÈÊíåÇ Úáì ÝÎÐíåÇ áÆáÇ ÊØÃØà (3) ßËíÑÇ ÝÊÑÊÝÚ ÚÌíÒÊåÇ ÝÅÐÇ ÌáÓÊ ÝÚáì ÅáíÊíåÇ áíÓ ßãÇ íÞÚÏ ÇáÑÌá æÅÐÇ ÓÞØÊ ááÓÌæÏ ÈÏÃÊ ÈÇáÞÚæÏ ÈÇáÑßÈÊíä ÞÈá ÇáíÏíä Ëã ÊÓÌÏ áÇØÆÉ ÈÇáÇÑÖ (1) ÝÅÐÇ ßÇäÊ Ýí ÌáæÓåÇ ÖãÊ ÝÎÐíåÇ æÑÝÚÊ ÑßÈÊíåÇ ãä ÇáÇÑÖ æÅÐÇ äåÖÊ ÇäÓáÊ ÇäÓáÇáÇ áÇ ÊÑÝÚ ÚÌíÒÊåÇ ÃæáÇ

By the same isnaad, from Hamaad ibn 'Eesa, from Hareez, from Zuraarah (from Imam al-Baaqir) who said:

When the woman stands for salaah, she joins her feet together and does not leave a gap between them, and joins her hands on her chest at the place of the breasts. And when she goes into ruku, she places her hands above her knees, upon her thighs, lest she sink down too much. When she sits, she sits upon her buttocks, not like the sitting of a man. And when she goes down into sujud, she starts by going down with her knees before her hands. Then she does sujud, keeping herself low to the ground. When she is in her sitting, she joins her thighs and draws up her knees upon the ground. And when she rises, she unravels herself stealthily (with modesty, etc.) and does not raise her buttocks first.

--

Muwathaq from al-Kafee:

http://www.alhikmeh.com/arabic/mktba/hadith/alkafi03/17.htm

ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ¡ Úä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÓÚíÏ¡ Úä ÚËãÇä Èä ÚíÓì¡ Úä ÇÈä ãÓßÇä Úä ÇÈä ÃÈí íÚÝæÑ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÞÇá: ÅÐÇ ÓÌÏÊ ÇáãÑÃÉ ÈÓØÊ ÐÑÇÚíåÇ.

þ

Abi Ma'fur from Abi 'AbdAllah who said: When the woman does sujud, she levels her arms (lays them flat).

--

From Sheikh al-Mufeed's Ahkaam al-Nisaa':

http://www.ali12.com/mybooks/find.php?do=show_reslusts&id=28&table=table_fiqh_s

ÞÏ ÊÞÏã ÇáÞæá Ýí ÝÑÖ ÇáØåÇÑÉ ááÕáæÇÊ¡ æÃäå íÚã ÇáãßáÝíä ãä ÇáäÇÓ¡ ÛíÑ Ãä Ýí ßíÝíÊå ÇÎÊáÇÝÇ Èíä ÃÝÚÇá ÇáäÓÇÁ æÇáÑÌÇá Ýíå¡ æÝí ÓäÉ Ðáß¡ æÇáÝÖá ÇáãäÏæÈ Ýíå. ÝããÇ íÎÇáÝ Úãá ÇáÑÌÇá Ýíå Úãá ÇáäÓÇÁ¡ Ãä ÇáÑÌÇá ÅÐÇ ÃÑÇÏæÇ ÇáÇÓÊäÌÇÁ¡ ßÇä ÇÓÊäÌÇÄåã ØæáÇ¡ æíäÈÛí ááäÓÇÁ Ãä íÓÊäÌíä ÚÑÖÇ. ÝÅÐÇ ÛÓá ÇáÑÌÇá ÃíÏíåã Ýí ÇáØåÇÑÉ ÈÏÃæÇ ÈÛÓá ÙæÇåÑ ÃÐÑÚåã ¡ æíäÈÛí ááäÓÇÁ Ãä íÈÊÏÆä ÈÛÓá ÈæÇØäåÇ. æÅÐÇ ãÓÍ ÇáÑÌÇá ÑÄæÓåã Ýí ÇáæÖæÁ æÖæÇ ÃíÏíåã Úáì äÝÓ ÇáÈÔÑÉ ãäåÇ¡ ÝãÓÍæÇ ÈãÞÏÇÑ ËáÇË ÃÕÇÈÚ ãÖãæãÉ ãÚ ÇáÔÚÑ. æááäÓÇÁ Ãä íÏÎáä ÅÕÈÚÇ ãä ÃÕÇÈÚ ÃíÏíåä ÊÍÊ ÇáÞäÇÚ¡ ÝíãÓÍä ÈãÞÏÇÑ ÃäãáÉ æÇÍÏÉ Ýí ËáÇË ÕáæÇÊ¡ æåí ÇáÙåÑ æÇáÚÕÑ æÇáÚÔÇÁ ÇáÂÎÑÉ¡ æÅä ÃáÞíä ÇáÞäÇÚ æãÓÍä ÈÃßËÑ ãä Ðáß ßÇä ÃÝÖá¡

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ÈÇÈ ÃÍßÇã ÇáäÓÇÁ Ýí ÇáÕáæÇÊ æÇáãÑÃÉ ÅÐÇ ÞÇãÊ Çáì ÕáÇÊåÇ ÝáíÓ ÚáíåÇ ááÕáÇÉ ÃÐÇä æáÇ ÅÞÇãÉ. ÝÇä ÊÔåÏÊ ÈÇáÔåÇÏÊíä¡ ÝÞÇáÊ: (ÃÔåÏ Ãä áÇ Çáå ÅáÇ Çááå¡ ÃÔåÏ

Ãä áÇ Çáå ÇáÇ Çááå¡ ÃÔåÏ Ãä ãÍãÏÇ ÑÓæá Çááå¡ ÃÔåÏ Ãä ãÍãÏÇ ÑÓæá Çááå) ãä ÛíÑ Ãä ÊÌåÑ ÈåÇ¡ ÝíÓãÚ ÕæÊåÇ ãä áíÓ ÈãÍÑã áåÇ¡ ßÇäÊ ÈÐáß ãÍÓäÉ ãÃÌæÑÉ. æÅä ÏÎáÊ Ýí ÇáÕáÇÉ ÈÛíÑ ÇáÔåÇÏÊíä ÃÌÒÃåÇ Ðáß. æÇáÓäÉ Ýí ÇáÃÐÇä æÇáÇÞÇãÉ ááÕáæÇÊ ÊÎÊÕ ÈÇáÑÌÇá¡ æíÊÃßÏ ÇáÃãÑ ÝíåãÇ Úáì ÅãÇã ÇáÌãÇÚÉ Ýí ÇáÕáæÇÊ ÇáÎãÓ¡ Èá åæ æÇÌÈ Ýí Ðáß Ïæä ãÇ ÚÏÇå. ÝÅÐÇ æÞÝÊ ÇáãÑÃÉ Ýí ÇáÞÈáÉ ßÈÑÊ ÍíÇá æÌååÇ¡ æÑÝÚÊ íÏíåÇ Çáì Ïæä ÔÍãÊí ÃÐäíåÇ¡ Ëã ÃÑÓáÊåãÇ ÈÇáÊßÈíÑ. ææÖÚÊ ÃÕÇÈÚ íÏåÇ Çáíãäì Úáì ËÏíåÇ ÇáÃíãä¡ æÃÕÇÈÚ íÏåÇ ÇáíÓÑì Úáì ËÏíåÇ ÇáÃíÓÑ. æÌãÚÊ Èíä ÞÏãíåÇ Ýí ÇáÞíÇã¡ æáã ÊÝÑÞ ÈíäåãÇ. æÓäÉ ÇáÑÌÇá Ýí ÇáÕáæÇÊ ÈÎáÇÝ Ðáß¡ íÝÑÞ ÇáÑÌá Èíä ÞÏãíå ÈãÞÏÇÑ ÃÑÈÚ ÃÕÇÈÚ ãÝÑÌÇÊ Åáì ÃßËÑ ãä Ðáß¡ æÅÐÇ ßÈÑ ÃÑÓá íÏíå Úáì ÝÎÐíå. æÅÐÇ ÑßÚÊ ÇáãÑÃÉ æÖÚÊ íÏíåÇ Úáì ÝÎÐíåÇ¡ æáã ÊØÃØÆ ßËíÑÇ¡ áÆáÇ ÊÑÊÝÚ ÚÌíÒÊåÇ. æÇáÑÌá ÅÐÇ ÑßÚ ÃáÞã ßÝíå Úíäí ÑßÈÊíå¡ æÇäÍäì ÍÊì íÚÊÏá ÙåÑå¡ ÝÍßãå Ýí Ðáß ÈÎáÇÝ Íßã ÇáäÓÇÁ. æÅÐÇ ÃÑÇÏÊ ÇáãÑÃÉ ÇáÓÌæÏ¡ ÌáÓÊ Úáì ÇáÃÑÖ ÞÈá Ãä ÊÖÚ ÌÈåÊåÇ ÚáíåÇ¡ ÝÅÐÇ ÇØãÃäÊ ÈÇáÃÑÖ ÓÌÏÊ ãÊÖããÉ ÈáÕÞ ÐÑÇÚíåÇ

Çáì ÚÖÏíåÇ Çáì ÌäÈåÇ¡ æÝÎÐíåÇ Çáì ÈØäåÇ áÇØÆÉ ÈÇáÇÑÖ. ÝÅÐÇ ÃÑÇÏÊ ÇáÞíÇã ãä ÇáÓÌÏÊíä ÌáÓÊ Ëã ÞÇãÊ¡ ÝÅÐÇ ÊÚÏÊ ááÊÔåÏ ÌáÓÊ Úáì ÃáíÊíåÇ¡ æÑÝÚÊ ÓÇÞíåÇ¡ ææÖÊ ÈÇØä ÞÏãåÇ Úáì ÇáÇÑÖ¡ æÖãÊ Èíä ÓÇÞíåÇ æÚíäí ÑßÈÊíåÇ. æÍßã ÇáÑÌÇá Ýí Ðáß íÎÇáÝ ãÇ æÕÝäÇå. æÅÐÇ ÃÑÇÏ ÇáÑÌá ÇáÓÌæÏ Ãåæì ÈíÏíå Çáì ÇáÃÑÖ ÞÈá ÑßÈÊíå¡ Ëã ÓÌÏ ãäÝÑÌÇ ÞÏ ÑÝÚ ÐÑÇÚíå Úä ÚÖÏíå Úä ÌäÈíå¡ æÝÎÐíå Úä ÓÇÞíå¡ æíÑÝÚ ÈØäå Úä ÝÎÐíå¡ æíÓÌÏ Úáì ÓÈÚÉ ÃÚÙã: ÇáÌÈåÉ¡ æÈÇØä ÇáßÝíä¡ æÚíäí ÇáÑßÈÊíä¡ æÃØÑÇÝ ÃÕÇÈÚ ÇáÑÌáíä¡ æíÑÛã ÈÃäÝå ÇÑÛÇãÇ. ÝÅÐÇ ÌáÓ ááÊÔåÏ ÌáÓ Úáì ÃáíÊíå¡ æÇÚÊãÏ Úáì ÇáíÓÑì ãäåãÇ ÞáíáÇ¡ æÎÝÖ ÝÎÐå ÇáíÓÑì æÑÝÚ ÝÎÐå Çáíãäì. ÝåÐÇ Íßã ÇáÑÌÇá ÝíãÇ ÚÏÏäÇå ãä åíÆÉ ÇáÕáÇÉ¡ æÍßã ÇáäÓÇÁ ãÇ ÔÑÍäÇå ãä Ðáß æÇááå æáí ÇáÊæÝíÞ

This is the presentation concerning the fardh aspects of tahaarah for salaah. It is required to be known by all people. There is no difference in its mode (parts which need to be washed/wiped, which comprise the wudhu) between men and women, and in those aspects of the sunnah concerning it, and in its recommended actions. What there is a difference in are the actions of the man therein, and the actions of the woman.

If a man wants to do istinjaa' (clean oneself after using the restroom), he does it lengthwise, whereas for the female, she does it crosswise. When the man washes his arms in wudhu, he starts with washing the outside of his arms. As for women, they start by washing the inside of the arm (this is speaking about pouring the water on the outside of the elbow first, or from the inside). And when the man wipes his hair in wudhu, he uses the leftover water (already on his hands from the washing), and wipes the quantity of three joined fingers upon his hair. And for the women, if they enter their fingers under their head covering, they wipe the quantity of a fingertip. This applies to three prayers: Dhuhr, 'Asr, and 'Ishaa'. And if she removes her head covering and wipes more than that, it is afdhal (better, more meritorious). But it satisfies to do what we have mentioned. And she puts aside her head covering for two prayers: Fajr and Maghrib. And she wipes her hair to the extent of a man, as we have mentioned. This is a concession to her in her prayers and something to make it simple for her and avoid hardship.

If a woman stands for her salaah, there is not upon her an adhaan, nor an iqaamah. She testifies to the two shahadas. She says, "Ashhadu An La Illaha illAllah, Ashhadu An La Illaha illAllah, Ashhadu Anna Muhammad al-Rasool Allah, Ashhadu Anna Muhammad al-Rasool Allah," without raising her voice. She should say it loud enough to hear her voice when there are no non-mahrams present. The same applies to when there are adult slaves around. And if she enters into salaah without saying the two shahadas, that is permissible for her. And the sunnah in the adhaan and iqaamah for the prayers is the domain of the men, and the responsibility for that is upon the imaam of the congregational prayers, unless there is someone else who chooses to do it.

When the woman faces the qiblah, she does takbir (raises her hands) to the level of her face, and raises her hands lower than her earlobes. She then does her takbir and places the fingers of her right hand upon her right breast, and the fingers of her left hand upon her left breast. And she joins her feet together and does not leave a gap between them. And the sunnah for the man in prayers is different from that. He leaves a gap between his feet, the measure of four separated fingers, to more than that. And when he does his takbir, he places his hands upon his thighs.

When the woman does ruku', she places her hands on her thighs, and does not lower herself too much, so that her buttocks does not arise/protrude. And the man, when he does ruku', places his palms upon his knees, and inclines himself until he straightens his back. And the wisdom in that is different from the ruling for the women. And when the woman wishes to do sujud, she sits upon the ground before she puts her forehead upon it. When she goes down to the ground during her sujud, she constricts/encompasses herself and keeps her elbows against her sides, and her thighs to her stomach low to the ground.

And when she wishes to rise from her two sajdas, she sits (gathers herself), and then stands. And if she says the tashahhud, she sits upon her buttocks and places her legs (to the side), and puts the inside part of her foot upon the ground, and joins her thighs and knees together. And the ruling of the man is different in than what we have described of it. If the man wants to do sujud, he leads with his hands towards the ground before his knees. Then he does sujud and leaves a space between his arms and his sides, and leaves a space between his thighs. And he prostrates upon seven parts: His forehead, the inside of his palms, his knees, the ends of his toes, and his nose (which is recommended). When he sits for the tashahhud, he sits upon his buttocks, and rests a little bit to his left hand side, and lowers his left thigh, and raises his right thigh (note this is when his feet are underneath him). This is the ruling of the man in the forms of prayer. And the ruling of the woman is what we have described, and Allah is the protector and giver of success.

--

From Urwat al-Wuthqa:

http://www.rafed.net/books/fegh/orwa-2/ar9.html

ýãÓÃáÉ 16 : ÕáÇÉ ÇáãÑÃÉ ßÇáÑÌá Ýí ÇáæÇÌÈÇÊ æÇáãÓÊÍÈÇÊ ÅáÇ Ýí ÇãæÑ ÞÏ ãÑ ßËíÑ ãäåÇ Ýí ÊÖÇÚíÝ ãÇ ÞÏãäÇ ãä ÇáãÓÇÆá æÌãáÊåÇ Ãäå íÓÊÍÈ áåÇ ÇáÒíäÉ ÍÇá ÇáÕáÇÉ ÈÇáÍáí æÇáÎÖÇÈ ¡ æÇáÇÎÝÇÊ Ýí ÇáÇÞæÇá ¡ æÇáÌãÚ Èíä ÞÏãíåÇ ÍÇá ÇáÞíÇã ¡ æÖã ËÏííåÇ Åáì ÕÏÑåÇ ÈíÏíåÇ ÍÇáå ÃíÖÇ ¡ ææÖÚ íÏíåÇ Úáì ÝÎÐíåÇ ÍÇá ÇáÑßæÚ ¡ æÃä áÇ ÊÑÏ ÑßÈÊíåÇ ÍÇáå Åáì æÑÇÁ ¡ æÃä ÊÈÏà ÈÇáÞÚæÏ ááÓÌæÏ ¡ æÃä ÊÌáÓ ãÚÊÏáÉ Ëã ÊÓÌÏ ¡ æÃä ÊÌÊãÚ æÊÖã ÃÚÖÇÁåÇ ÍÇá ÇáÓÌæÏ ¡ æÃä ÊáÊÕÞ ÈÇáÇÑÖ ÈáÇ ÊÌÇÝ æÊÝÊÑÔ ÐÑÇÚíåÇ ¡ æÃä ÊäÓá ÇäÓáÇáÇ ÅÐÇ ÃÑÇÏÊ ÇáÞíÇã Ãí ÊäåÖ ÈÊÃä æÊÏÑíÌ ÚÏáÇ áÆáÇ ÊÈÏæ ÚÌíÒÊåÇ ¡ æÃä ÊÌáÓ Úáì ÃáíÊíåÇ ÅÐÇ ÌáÓÊ ÑÇÝÚÉ ÑßÈÊíåÇ ÖÇãÉ áåãÇ.

The prayer of a woman is like that of a man in its obligatory and recommended aspects, except in some detailed matters whose contents are multifarious. What we present of these issues are recommended:

-It is recommended that she beautify herself for salaah with jewelry and henna

-Lower her voice in her words

-Join her feet when she is in qiyaam (the standing position)

-Join her hands on her chest at the place of her breasts

-Join her hands on her thighs when she does ruku', and she does not go down to her knees in this position

-And she begins with her knees when she goes down for sujud

-And sits modestly, then does sujud

-And gathers and joins herself (lit. her private parts, but her body) when she does sujud

-And clings to the ground, without accentuating or spreading her arms

-And when she wants to stand, she comes up modestly (stealthily)

-Any rousing must be done with consideration and discipline (training to make one do this properly), so as not to protrude her posterior

-And when she sits upon her posterior in the sitting position, she hoists her knees (to the side) and joins them

I've never, ever, ever in 8 years seen this strange hands and sitting position thing.

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^^lol thats what I thought

I think I am convinced of the women placing hands on chest and Squatting during Tashahud but is the Squating done in between the two Sujoods and is it also done and said during Tasleem and how would she finish salah, by saying Allah Haukbar 3X wouldnt it be akward, Please any sisters who pray this way can you give a detailed guide on how to pray as I have to teach someone how to pray.

Also I have heard that mainly old Syeds in Pakistan have their women pray like this and Also ARABS in certain parts of the Arab world. seems to me like the Sunnis have Maliki fiqh in north Africa and Hanafi in sub continent same we have different opinions which are more general in different areas.

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