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fallah

If The Prophets Are Infallible

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Then he caused them to fall by deceit; so when they tasted of the tree, their evil inclinations became manifest to them, and they both began to cover themselves with the leaves of the garden; and their Lord called out to them: Did I not forbid you both from that tree and say to you that the Shaitan is your open enemy? They (Adam and Eve) said: Our Lord! We have been unjust to ourselves, and if Thou forgive us not, and have (not) mercy on us, we shall certainly be of the losers. 7:22-23

Was Adam infallible?

(salam)

Edited by fallah

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(salam)

According to most Shia scholars, yes. For a commentary on why they say prophet Adam's (as) actions did not constitute a sin see Tafsir al-mizan by Allama Tabatabai. Some of it is available in English here: http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/

wasalaam

So according to you this verse doesn't say Adam and Eve committed a sin aka they went against God's orders?

The verse seems pretty clear to me.

Edited by fallah

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So according to you this verse doesn't say Adam and Eve committed a sin aka they went against God's orders?

The verse seems pretty clear to me.

Adam did not sin, Hawwa did.

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Adam did not sin, Hawwa did.

What book do you read?

Then he caused them to fall by deceit; so when they tasted of the tree, their evil inclinations became manifest to them, and they both began to cover themselves with the leaves of the garden; and their Lord called out to them: Did I not forbid you both from that tree and say to you that the Shaitan is your open enemy? They (Adam and Eve) said: Our Lord! We have been unjust to ourselves, and if Thou forgive us not, and have (not) mercy on us, we shall certainly be of the losers. 7:22-23

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(salam),

(salam)

According to most Shia scholars, yes. For a commentary on why they say prophet Adam's (as) actions did not constitute a sin see Tafsir al-mizan by Allama Tabatabai. Some of it is available in English here: http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/

wasalaam

http://www.shiasource.com/al-mizan/self/tafseer-2-35-39/

... to be specific. Excellent description and explanation of the Shia stance. Give it a thorough read.

wa (salam)

Edited by Basim Ali

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What book do you read?

Then he caused them to fall by deceit; so when they tasted of the tree, their evil inclinations became manifest to them, and they both began to cover themselves with the leaves of the garden; and their Lord called out to them: Did I not forbid you both from that tree and say to you that the Shaitan is your open enemy? They (Adam and Eve) said: Our Lord! We have been unjust to ourselves, and if Thou forgive us not, and have (not) mercy on us, we shall certainly be of the losers. 7:22-23

Actually I correct myself.

Adam committed a Tark al-Awla, and Hawwa did not make any mistake at all. They were both forbidden from going near the tree, and neither of them went near the tree. It was Iblis who brought the fruit to them, and hence there was no mistake or sin. But rather the Tark al-Awla of Adam was to believe his wife (who had been mistaken due to the lie told to her by Iblis) rather than wait patiently for the command of his Lord (a trait that all of Bani Adam seem to have inherited!)

But here's a question for you: If Adam was a sinner (naudhobillah), then why did Allah order the angels to prostrate to him?

Edited by Socrates

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But here's a question for you: If Adam was a sinner (naudhobillah), then why did Allah order the angels to prostrate to him?

Irrelevant question. The orders of Allah to the angels has nothing to do with Adam's decisions.

If Adam didn't sin aka disobey Allah's orders, then he wouldn't be begging for forgiveness, otherwise he's begging for no reason at all.

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As for Adam, he did not disobey the obligatory commands of Allah swt; the command that he did not honor was a recommended one, not a mandatory one, and so- according to Islamic terminology he did not commit a sin. "And indeed We made a covenant withh Adam before, but he forgot, and We found on his part no firm willpower ('azm)." (20:115) His guilt was that he did not have willpower, but he did not violate Allah's rules since the commands were advisory, not obligatory, and so the result of his behavior was to lose the privilege granted him: "Verily, you have a promise from Us that you will never be hungry therein, nor naked, and you will not suffer from thirst therein, nor from the sun's heat." (20:118-119) When speaking about disobedience of Prophet Adam (pbuh), the Holy Qur'an does not mean disobedience in the literal term; it means that it is not expected from a person like Prophet Adam (pbuh) who is a leader for humanity not to adhere to Allah's advisory commands. Therefore, such an act is labeled allegorically as a sin in the Holy Qur'an.

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Irrelevant question. The orders of Allah to the angels has nothing to do with Adam's decisions.

It is not relevant at all. Why did Allah order the angels to bow to Adam and not to all human beings?

If Adam didn't sin aka disobey Allah's orders, then he wouldn't be begging for forgiveness, otherwise he's begging for no reason at all.

Asking for forgiveness does not prove sin at all.

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Was Adam infallible?

(salam)

^Imami scholars (such as Shaykh Mufeed and majority of his time) believed that Prophets (as) [except Muhammad (saw)] were not protected from minor sins (which do not degrade them) before the time of their prophetic mission.

Åä ÌãíÚ ÃäÈíÇÁ Çááå - ÕáæÇÊ Çááå Úáíåã - ãÚÕæãæä ãä ÇáßÈÇÆÑ ÞÈá ÇáäÈæÉ æÈÚÏåÇ æãÇ íÓÊÎÝ ÝÇÚáå ãä ÇáÕÛÇÆÑ ßáåÇ¡ æÃãÇ ãÇ ßÇä ãä ÕÛíÑ áÇ íÓÊÎÝ ÝÇÚáå ÝÌÇÆÒ æÞæÚå ãäåã ÞÈá ÇáäÈæÉ æÚáì ÛíÑ ÊÚãÏ æããÊäÚ ãäåã ÈÚÏåÇ Úáì ßá ÍÇá¡ æåÐÇ ãÐåÈ ÌãåæÑ ÇáÅãÇãíÉ¡ æÇáãÚÊÒáÉ ÈÃÓÑåÇ ÊÎÇáÝ Ýíå.

Imams of Ahlul Bayt (as) were also not protected from minor sins (which do not degrade them) before the time of their Imamah.

Åä ÇáÃÆãÉ ÇáÞÇÆãíä ãÞÇã ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ (Õ) Ýí ÊäÝíÐ ÇáÃÍßÇã æÅÞÇãÉ ÇáÍÏæÏ æÍÝÙ ÇáÔÑÇÆÚ æÊÃÏíÈ ÇáÃäÇã (1) ãÚÕæãæä ßÚÕãÉ ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ¡ æÅäåã áÇ íÌæÒ ãäåã ÕÛíÑÉ ÅáÇ ãÇ ÞÏãÊ ÐßÑ ÌæÇÒå Úáì ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ

w/s

w/s

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(salam)

I had posted this earlier for you brother, fallah but you didnt not see/bother to reply.

Anyhow.

I've read the tafsir, but it didn't convince me.

If indeed it was just a "recommended advice", then if Adam was not to take the advice, then he wouldn't have to ask for forgiveness. Even better, all of the commands of Allah are advices, since Allah does not command us to do something that does not benefit us.

And the argument that "if it was a sin and Adam asked for forgiveness, Allah would bring them back to the Garden", has some problems. If someone commits fornication and asks Allah for forgiveness, does the forgiveness granted by Allah eliminate the disease he received or the pregnancy that came out of his actions? You can be forgiven of an action, yet still have to live the consequences of that action.

and the fact that Adam forgot means that Prophets can forget Allah's advices, and how is that compatible with infallibility?

I saw you post a video, can you post it? I would like to listen to it.

Edited by fallah

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So according to you this verse doesn't say Adam and Eve committed a sin aka they went against God's orders?

The verse seems pretty clear to me.

Not according to me, according to most Shia scholars. I personally haven't yet arrived at a definitive opinion on this issue although I tend to lean towards agreeing with them.

If indeed it was just a "recommended advice", then if Adam was not to take the advice, then he wouldn't have to ask for forgiveness.

Well who says he had to apologise. For example, if my mother advises me not to get a job until after I graduate from school, but does not command it - and if I do so anyway contrary to her advice and then suffer the consequences,I don't need to apologise to her but I probably still would out of respect and would probably express my regret to her.

Edited by ~RuQaYaH~

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But here's a question for you: If Adam was a sinner (naudhobillah), then why did Allah order the angels to prostrate to him?

Adam was created, then the angels were ordered to prostrate to him THEN he "sinned" (audhobillah). Angels prostrating infront of man, is hardly reason to believe the man is infallible, right? Otherwise where is the proof that angels prostrated infront of prophet Muhammad(pbuh & hf) or infront of Imam Ali(as) whom we believe is infallible?

Though Allah(swt) is all-knowing, we still have free will to choose our actions.

Why did the passengers of the Titanic go onboard when they knew it was going to sink?

[Disclaimer: The above explanation is given in the hypothetical case in which we 'assume' that Adam(as) 'sinned' thought of course he didn't because he (peace be upon him) was a prophet]

Now to the OP:

(Iblis) said: "O my Lord! because Thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and I will put them all in the wrong,-

"Except Thy servants among them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)."

"This (way of My sincere servants) is indeed a way that leads straight to Me.

"For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."

And verily, Hell is the promised abode for them all!

[Al Quran, 15:39-42]

Sin, wrongdoings, would not be here had it not been for Iblis. And the verses above clearly indicate that Iblis will not try to put those who are sincere servants of Allah(swt) in the wrong. Eg: the prophets(pbut) and those who are purified: Ahlulbayt.

And Allah(swt) says that his sincere servants will go straight to him and the following verse (15:42) states that the sincere servants never put themselves in the wrong meaning they are infallible. Whereas the rest of us, aren't as sincere(we can't be because we have faith in Allah and it is through our faith that He is manifest, while to the prophets(pbut) Allah is manifest first through them receiving revelations then faith) and put ourselves in the wrong and listen to iblis every here and there, audhobillahi minna shaytanir rajim.

Hawwa, however, was not a prophet meaning she was fallible and it was her who listened to Iblis. Allah(swt) has commanded us several times to obey his messengers on His(Allah) authority, otherwise we will be burning our good deeds.

Allah would not ask us to obey someone who is not infallible and will thus fall in sin, in that case, why not ask us to obey Iblis..he had served Allah(swt) for 6000 years and was one of his best servants until he(iblis) was overtaken by Pride and would not prostrate to Adam.

Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah. [Al Quran, 4:80]

....and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one. [Al Quran, 76:24]

Whoever believes that the prophets(pbut) are fallible:

if they have proof for it: then they have found a contradiction in the Quran

If they don't have proof for it(which they don't): then they have disobeyed the Quran.

(wasalam)

Edited by Devout

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Adam was created, then the angels were ordered to prostrate to him THEN he "sinned" (audhobillah).

But his "sin" was in the knowledge of Allah who ordered the prostration, right?

Angels prostrating infront of man, is hardly reason to believe the man is infallible, right? Otherwise where is the proof that angels prostrated infront of prophet Muhammad(pbuh & hf) or infront of Imam Ali(as) whom we believe is infallible?

Though Allah(swt) is all-knowing, we still have free will to choose our actions.

Though this is a lengthy discussion that will take us offtopic, the interesting thing is where prostration towards human beings has been discussed in the Qur'an it concerns two prophets of Allah (Adam and Yusuf) and incidently both are ma'soom. This isn't a coincidence.

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But his "sin" was in the knowledge of Allah who ordered the prostration, right?

The man who was born a shia and converted to sunnism: His conversion was in the knowledge of Allah(swt) who still had him born in a shia family,right?

My point is that Allah(swt) is all-knowing but we do have the free will(though not absolute) to make our decisions. Again, going further will take us offtopic

Though this is a lengthy discussion that will take us offtopic, the interesting thing is where prostration towards human beings has been discussed in the Qur'an it concerns two prophets of Allah (Adam and Yusuf) and incidently both are ma'soom. This isn't a coincidence.

Of course it is not a coincidence, but it is not 'THE' sign of ma'soomiat. Otherwise, whichever prophet did not have the angels prostrate towards him is not ma'soom. So giving the prostration as an example of prophet Adam(as)'s infallibility is problematic, especially for a shi3a who believes the ahlulbayt to be masoom aswell. Never do that during a debate or you've lost. :squeez:

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Sin, wrongdoings, would not be here had it not been for Iblis.

And the Shaitan shall say after the affair is decided: Surely Allah promised you the promise of truth, and I gave you promises, then failed to keep them to you, and I had no authority over you, except that I called you and you obeyed me, therefore do not blame me but blame yourselves: I cannot be your aider (now) nor can you be my aiders; surely I disbelieved in your associating me with Allah before; surely it is the unjust that shall have the painful punishment. 14:22

And the verses above clearly indicate that Iblis will not try to put those who are sincere servants of Allah(swt) in the wrong. Eg: the prophets(pbut) and those who are purified: Ahlulbayt.

You nuderstand it incorrectly. Satan's whisperings have no effect on the sincere servants of Allah, not that he does not wisper to the pious, otherwise he wouldn't wisper to Adam eh?

7:20 But the Shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said: Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.

Now tell me, how is it not a sin if Adam followed the temptation of Shaytan? They had the choice to either follow what God told them, or follow what Shaytan told them. They listened to shaytan. Is that not sin?

And Allah(swt) says that his sincere servants will go straight to him and the following verse (15:42) states that the sincere servants never put themselves in the wrong meaning they are infallible.

15:42 Surely. as regards My servants, you have no authority ,over them except those who follow you of the deviators.

Again, it only means that sincere servants will not fall into your traps because their faith is strong, that's why he has no power over them.

Hawwa, however, was not a prophet meaning she was fallible and it was her who listened to Iblis. Allah(swt) has commanded us several times to obey his messengers on His(Allah) authority, otherwise we will be burning our good deeds.

They both listened to Iblis. Read the verse, the words used are plural.

Allah would not ask us to obey someone who is not infallible and will thus fall in sin, in that case, why not ask us to obey Iblis..he had served Allah(swt) for 6000 years and was one of his best servants until he(iblis) was overtaken by Pride and would not prostrate to Adam.

Tell me, why did the Prophets ask for forgiveness many times a day if they never wronged themselves? I'm just wondering.

Whoever obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys Allah. [Al Quran, 4:80]

....and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one. [Al Quran, 76:24]

Is not the majority of people here obey the sheikhs and scholars almost as if they worshiped them? They take their word as a command, yet are they infallible? Are you going against this verse or are you not understanding it correctly?

There's a difference between the Messenger's infallibility to deliver the message and be infallible in terms of teaching the religion, but that does not make him infallible in every other sense.

Whoever believes that the prophets(pbut) are fallible:

if they have proof for it: then they have found a contradiction in the Quran

If they don't have proof for it(which they don't): then they have disobeyed the Quran.

11:47 He (Nuh) said: My Lord! I seek refuge in Thee from asking Thee that of which I have no knowledge; and if Thou shouldst not forgive me and have mercy on me, I should be of the losers.

38:24 He said: Surely he has been unjust to you in demanding your ewe (to add) to his own ewes; and most surely most of the partners act wrongfully towards one another, save those who believe and do good, and very few are they; and Dawood was sure that We had tried him, so he sought the protection of his Lord and he fell down bowing and turned time after time (to Him).

28:15-16 And he (Musa) went into the city at a time of unvigilance on the part of its people, so he found therein two men fighting, one being of his party and the other of his foes, and he who was of his party cried out to him for help against him who was of his enemies, so Musa struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is on account of the Shaitan's doing; surely he is an enemy, openly leading astray. He said: My Lord! surely I have done harm to myself, so do Thou protect me. So He protected him; surely He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

Edited by fallah

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Are you sunni?

And the Shaitan shall say after the affair is decided: Surely Allah promised you the promise of truth, and I gave you promises, then failed to keep them to you, and I had no authority over you, except that I called you and you obeyed me, therefore do not blame me but blame yourselves: I cannot be your aider (now) nor can you be my aiders; surely I disbelieved in your associating me with Allah before; surely it is the unjust that shall have the painful punishment. 14:22

And the Shaitan shall say after the affair is decided: Surely Allah promised you the promise of truth, and I gave you promises, then failed to keep them to you, and I had no authority over you, except that I called you and you obeyed me, therefore do not blame me but blame yourselves: I cannot be your aider (now) nor can you be my aiders; surely I disbelieved in your associating me with Allah before; surely it is the unjust that shall have the painful punishment. 14:22

As I said earlier, sin would not be here had it not been for iblis. It is Iblis' call that gives you another idea than what is proposed by Allah(swt), then you have to make the choice between the two. So as you see, Iblis says: "I called you" and THEN "you obeyed me".

Meaning he is still root cause of it, because of his call. but yes, he has no authority other than the call/whispering which inserts the sinful actions into your mind.

You nuderstand it incorrectly. Satan's whisperings have no effect on the sincere servants of Allah, not that he does not wisper to the pious, otherwise he wouldn't wisper to Adam eh?

Let me get this right: during the whole discussion you have been claiming that Adam sinned. Now you are saying that satan's whisperings have no effect on the sincere servants of Allah(swt), are you then suggesting that Adam was NOT one of Allah's sincere servants? Allah(swt) let the earth be inhabited by the offspring of a sinner? really?

Now tell me, how is it not a sin if Adam followed the temptation of Shaytan? They had the choice to either follow what God told them, or follow what Shaytan told them. They listened to shaytan. Is that not sin?

Was Adam a prophet when he was in the Garden with Hawwa? When is the prophethood of Adam manifest? Who would he be a prophet to, while in the Garden? After the eating of the fruit does he become what we today know as humans(be able to reproduce, urinate, feel emotions etc) So it is after he is sent to earth that he becomes prophet and thus infallible

Is not the majority of people here obey the sheikhs and scholars almost as if they worshiped them? They take their word as a command, yet are they infallible? Are you going against this verse or are you not understanding it correctly

Audhobillah! How dare you even claim that most people here obey scholars as if they worshipped them.. I don't.

And you are clearly not understanding the verseS correctly: A prophet is not the same as a scholar. A scholar is fallible and we as muslims know they are fallible, therefore we cannot just accept whatever the scholars say. A prophet is infallible and obeying the prophet would be like obeying AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì

There's a difference between the Messenger's infallibility to deliver the message and be infallible in terms of teaching the religion, but that does not make him infallible in every other sense.

No, that is the same as hypocrisy.

How can a man (who knows the scripture and who claims that Allah(swt) revealed the scripture to him and who forbids certain acts) commit the acts which he forbade? He becomes a hypocrit and Allah(swt) said:

The Hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire: no helper wilt thou find for them [AL Quran, 4:145]

Are you suggesting the Prophet will go to Hell (NAUDHOBILLAH) because he sinned?

It makes no sense, wouldn't people lose belief in the quran if they saw the advocate (the prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his family in this world and the hereafter) of it do the things he told them not to do?

Would believe me if I told you that eating beef was haraam and then I ate it for dinner?

The prophets & Ahlulbayt HAVE to be infallible and they were/are. SubhanAllah. The quran also says that your soul is prone to evil UNLESS Allah(swt) bestows his mercy.(12:53) in which case your soul would NOT be prone to evil, you would then be infallible. And Allah(swt) bestowed his mercy upon the prophets from Adam to Muhammad wa ahl muhammad (pbut)

People who claim otherwise make me sick to the stomach. :squeez:

Edited by Devout

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Of course it is not a coincidence, but it is not 'THE' sign of ma'soomiat. Otherwise, whichever prophet did not have the angels prostrate towards him is not ma'soom. So giving the prostration as an example of prophet Adam(as)'s infallibility is problematic, especially for a shi3a who believes the ahlulbayt to be masoom aswell. Never do that during a debate or you've lost. :squeez:

I wasn't using it as a proof of ma'soomiat, of course you're right. But the fact that Mr fallah has not replied to this says volumes.

Tell me, why did the Prophets ask for forgiveness many times a day if they never wronged themselves? I'm just wondering.

So that ignorant like you would know how to ask for forgiveness.

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w/s

WTH!

Muqassir At His HIGH! In Misquoting

قال العلامة المجلسي ق ه: إن أصحابنا الإمامية أجمعوا على عصمة الأنبياء والأئمة صلوات الله عليهم من الذنوب الصغيرة والكبيرة عمداً وخطاً ونسياناً قبل النبوة والإمامة وبعدها بل من وقت ولادتهم إلى أن يلقوا الله سبحانه ولم يخالف فيه إلا الصدوق محمد بن بابويه وشيخه ابن الوليد قدس الله روحهما فجوزا الإسهاء من الله تعالى لا السهو الذي يكون من الشيطان ولعل خروجهما لا يخل بالإجماع لكونهما معروفي النسب وأما السهو في غير ما يتعلق بالواجبات والمحرمات كالمباحات والمكروهات فظاهر أكثر أصحابنا أيضاً الإجماع على عدم صدوره عنهم

The Companions Imami Unanimously Agreed On The Infallibility Of The Prophets And Imams The Sins Of Small And Large, Before His Prophethood And The Imamate And Then, But From The Time Of His Birth To Bring Their God, And No One Disagreed When Only Sheikh Sudooq rah And Sheikh Ibn e Waleed, Most Likely The Omission in Their Work!

Aslo Ayatullah Al-Khoie rah Said:

«القدر المتيقن من السهو الممنوع على المعصوم هو السهو في غير الموضوعات الخارجية، والله العالم.»

Edited by syed_demanding

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I wasn't using it as a proof of ma'soomiat, of course you're right. But the fact that Mr fallah has not replied to this says volumes.

So that ignorant like you would know how to ask for forgiveness.

Ah, so you claim that the prophet deceived people? He wasn't sincere in his asking for forgiveness?

No, that is the same as hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy is what socrate thinks the Prophets did. To do something while not really believing in it. Hypocrites in the Quran are the people who do acts of worship but don't believe in what they do.

Let me get this right: during the whole discussion you have been claiming that Adam sinned. Now you are saying that satan's whisperings have no effect on the sincere servants of Allah(swt), are you then suggesting that Adam was NOT one of Allah's sincere servants? Allah(swt) let the earth be inhabited by the offspring of a sinner? really?

I'm suggesting that Adam is a sincere servant. Sincere servants can still wrong themselves. What Allah is talking about is iman of the person. If Adam was not sincere, he would have not asked for forgiveness and his forgiveness wouldn't have been granted by Allah.

Was Adam a prophet when he was in the Garden with Hawwa? When is the prophethood of Adam manifest? Who would he be a prophet to, while in the Garden? After the eating of the fruit does he become what we today know as humans(be able to reproduce, urinate, feel emotions etc) So it is after he is sent to earth that he becomes prophet and thus infallible

Was the Garden where he was admissible to Satan? And he could have easily been a Prophet to Hawwa.

Audhobillah! How dare you even claim that most people here obey scholars as if they worshipped them.. I don't.

And you are clearly not understanding the verseS correctly: A prophet is not the same as a scholar. A scholar is fallible and we as muslims know they are fallible, therefore we cannot just accept whatever the scholars say. A prophet is infallible and obeying the prophet would be like obeying AllahÓÈÍÇäå æÊÚÇáì

Again, the Prophet conveying the message infallibly does not mean that he is infallible as a human. In terms of his prophetic mission, he was infallible. In terms of his human characteristics, he is not. His prophetic mission was protected by Allah, and the message of Islam was delivered successfully. That does not in any way mean that he's a superhuman of some sorts, that he does not get angry, that he does not have desires and that he does not have to fight against his ego.

But indeed, I think I will reconsider my position. Because after writing this, I asked myself "Did the Prophet ever lie?" And well, I don't believe he did. So perhaps, I should have not used the word sin. I ask Allah's forgiveness If I said something wrong.

So then, can someone explain what constitutes sin? And what do we call the mistakes of Prophets, such as the one done by Adam? And why do Prophets ask for forgiveness, is it because they always believed that they could have done more and more to Allah?

(salam)

Edited by fallah

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But indeed, I think I will reconsider my position. Because after writing this, I asked myself "Did the Prophet ever lie?" And well, I don't believe he did. So perhaps, I should have not used the word sin. I ask Allah's forgiveness If I said something wrong.

I'm glad you came to that conclusion. May Allah forgive you if you said anything wrong, Ameen.

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WTH!

Muqassir At His HIGH! In Misquoting

What you have quoted from al-Khoei is irrelevant here. The quote I've posted from Shaykh Mufeed's book isn't about sahw. And instead of calling Shaykh al-Mufeed and Jamhur of Imamiyah of his time 'muqassir', read yourself what Shaykh al-Mufeed said:

إن جميع أنبياء الله - صلوات الله عليهم - معصومون من الكبائر قبل النبوة وبعدها وما يستخف فاعله من الصغائر كلها، وأما ما كان من صغير لا يستخف فاعله فجائز وقوعه منهم قبل النبوة وعلى غير تعمد وممتنع منهم بعدها على كل حال، وهذا مذهب جمهور الإمامية، والمعتزلة بأسرها تخالف فيه

Ref: Awail al-Maqalat, Pg. 62, http://www.alkadhum.org/other/mktba/aqaed/avael_almagalat/03.html#fd033

إن الأئمة القائمين مقام الأنبياء (ص) في تنفيذ الأحكام وإقامة الحدود وحفظ الشرائع وتأديب الأنام (1) معصومون كعصمة الأنبياء، وإنهم لا يجوز منهم صغيرة إلا ما قدمت ذكر جوازه على الأنبياء

Ref: Awail al-Maqalat, Pg. 65, http://www.alkadhum.org/other/mktba/aqaed/avael_almagalat/03.html#fd033

w/s

Edited by Jondab_Azdi

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Ah, so you claim that the prophet deceived people? He wasn't sincere in his asking for forgiveness?

No idiot, the Prophet is an educator - he is sent to teach the people, and the people are sinners. Now how would you know how to ask for forgiveness for your sins if the Prophets did not demonstrate how it is done?

Hypocrisy is what socrate thinks the Prophets did. To do something while not really believing in it. Hypocrites in the Quran are the people who do acts of worship but don't believe in what they do.

Rather it is the height of imaan what I am talking about. Of course the Prophets believed in everything they did, but even then they demonstrated that they could not obey Allah in the way that he deserved and for this they prayed for forgiveness.

What you have quoted from al-Khoei is irrelevant here. The quote I've posted from Shaykh Mufeed's book isn't about sahw. And instead of calling Shaykh al-Mufeed and Jamhur of Imamiyah of his time 'muqassir', read yourself what Shaykh al-Mufeed said:

Åä ÌãíÚ ÃäÈíÇÁ Çááå - ÕáæÇÊ Çááå Úáíåã - ãÚÕæãæä ãä ÇáßÈÇÆÑ ÞÈá ÇáäÈæÉ æÈÚÏåÇ æãÇ íÓÊÎÝ ÝÇÚáå ãä ÇáÕÛÇÆÑ ßáåÇ¡ æÃãÇ ãÇ ßÇä ãä ÕÛíÑ áÇ íÓÊÎÝ ÝÇÚáå ÝÌÇÆÒ æÞæÚå ãäåã ÞÈá ÇáäÈæÉ æÚáì ÛíÑ ÊÚãÏ æããÊäÚ ãäåã ÈÚÏåÇ Úáì ßá ÍÇá¡ æåÐÇ ãÐåÈ ÌãåæÑ ÇáÅãÇãíÉ¡ æÇáãÚÊÒáÉ ÈÃÓÑåÇ ÊÎÇáÝ Ýíå

Ref: Awail al-Maqalat, Pg. 62, http://www.alkadhum.org/other/mktba/aqaed/avael_almagalat/03.html#fd033

Åä ÇáÃÆãÉ ÇáÞÇÆãíä ãÞÇã ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ (Õ) Ýí ÊäÝíÐ ÇáÃÍßÇã æÅÞÇãÉ ÇáÍÏæÏ æÍÝÙ ÇáÔÑÇÆÚ æÊÃÏíÈ ÇáÃäÇã (1) ãÚÕæãæä ßÚÕãÉ ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ¡ æÅäåã áÇ íÌæÒ ãäåã ÕÛíÑÉ ÅáÇ ãÇ ÞÏãÊ ÐßÑ ÌæÇÒå Úáì ÇáÃäÈíÇÁ

Ref: Awail al-Maqalat, Pg. 65, http://www.alkadhum.org/other/mktba/aqaed/avael_almagalat/03.html#fd033

w/s

If what you have attributed to Mufeed is true (and there is no evidence for this statement either way) then Mufeed is indeed a muqassir.

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What you have quoted from al-Khoei is irrelevant here. The quote I've posted from Shaykh Mufeed's book isn't about sahw. And instead of calling Shaykh al-Mufeed and Jamhur of Imamiyah of his time 'muqassir', read yourself what Shaykh al-Mufeed said:

Irrelevant? That Was for Your THIS Post:

The infallibility of Imams (as) is same as the infallibility of Prophets (as) except Muhammad (saw). The infallibility of Prophet Muhammad (saw) is of higher degree than other Prophets and Imams as he (saw) was protected from the minor sins even before the time of his prophetic mission. This a/c to Mufeed (ar) is the belief of Imamiyah.

If you mean mistakes/negligence/forgetfulness related to religious duty, then a/c to Shaykh Mufeed (ar), all Prophets (as) and Imams (as) are protected from such mistakes during the time as hujjah.

However, Shaykh Saduq (ar) and his teacher Shaykh Muhammad b. Hasan al- Walid (ar) believed in the absentmindedness (sahv) or forgetfulness (nisyan) of Prophet (saw) and Imams (as). Shaykh Saduq mentioned an authentic hadith in al-Faqih related to this:

w/s

And That Name (Muqassir) Was for YOU!

NOW READ AGAIN:

قال العلامة المجلسي ق ه: إن أصحابنا الإمامية أجمعوا على عصمة الأنبياء والأئمة صلوات الله عليهم من الذنوب الصغيرة والكبيرة عمداً وخطاً ونسياناً قبل النبوة والإمامة وبعدها بل من وقت ولادتهم إلى أن يلقوا الله سبحانه ولم يخالف فيه إلا الصدوق محمد بن بابويه وشيخه ابن الوليد قدس الله روحهما فجوزا الإسهاء من الله تعالى لا السهو الذي يكون من الشيطان ولعل خروجهما لا يخل بالإجماع لكونهما معروفي النسب وأما السهو في غير ما يتعلق بالواجبات والمحرمات كالمباحات والمكروهات فظاهر أكثر أصحابنا أيضاً الإجماع على عدم صدوره عنهم

The Companions Imami Unanimously Agreed On The Infallibility Of The Prophets And Imams from The Sins Of Small And Large, Before His Prophethood And The Imamate And Then, But From Their Time Of Birth To Bring Their God, And No One Disagreed When Only Sheikh Sudooq rah And Sheikh Ibn e Waleed, Most Likely The Omission in Their Work!....

And Majlisi rah Is RIGHT!

And As Sheikh Mufid rah In الإعتقادات الإمامية

والأنبياء والأئمة - عليهم السلام - ( 4 ) من بعدهم معصومون في حال نبوتهم وإمامتهم من الكبائر كلها والصغائر ، والعقل يجوز عليهم ترك مندوب إليه على غير التعمد للتقصير والعصيان ، ولا يجوز عليهم ترك مفترض إلا أن نبينا صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم والأئمة - عليهم السلام - من بعده كانوا سالمين من ترك المندوب ، والمفترض قبل حال إمامتهم وبعدها .

فصل ( 5 ) : فأما الوصف لهم بالكمال في كل أحوالهم ، فإن المقطوع به كمالهم في جميع أحوالهم التي كانوا فيها حججا لله تعالى على خلقه .

وقد جاء الخبر بأن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم والأئمة - عليهم السلام - من ذريته كانوا حججا لله تعالى منذ أكمل عقولهم إلى أن قبضهم ، ولم يكن لهم قبل أحوال التكليف أحوال نقص وجهل ، فإنهم يجرون مجرى عيسى ويحيى - عليهما السلام - في حصول الكمال لهم مع صغر السن وقبل بلوغ الحلم .

وهذا أمر تجوزه العقول ولا تنكره ، وليس إلى تكذيب الأخبار سبيل ، والوجه أن نقطع على كمالهم - عليهم السلام - في العلم والعصمة في أحوال النبوة والامامة ، ونتوقف فيما قبل ذلك ، وهل كانت أحوال نبوة وإمامة أم لا ( 1 ) ونقطع على أن العصمة لازمة لهم منذ أكمل الله تعالى عقولهم إلى أن قبضهم - عليهم السلام - ( 2 ) .

Link: http://www.aqaedalshia.com/mofid/03%20nobowa/51/index.htm

If what you have attributed to Mufeed is true (and there is no evidence for this statement either way) then Mufeed is indeed a muqassir.

(salam)

Don't Say This To Sheikh Mufeed rah, Brother, Muqassir Is one, WHO Misquoting Him!

Proof Is from الإعتقادات الإمامية Above.

(wasalam)

Edited by syed_demanding

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No idiot, the Prophet is an educator - he is sent to teach the people, and the people are sinners. Now how would you know how to ask for forgiveness for your sins if the Prophets did not demonstrate how it is done?

So are you saying that the Prophet used to ask forgiveness in front of people only to show them, but when he was alone he didn't? Isn't that what hypocrites do?

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So are you saying that the Prophet used to ask forgiveness in front of people only to show them, but when he was alone he didn't? Isn't that what hypocrites do?

How do you or I know what the prophets did in private?

When a teacher asks a question to the student even though he/she knows the answer, is he being a hypocrite? Stop being silly.

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Irrelevant? That Was for Your THIS Post:

Yes it's irrelevant b/c its nothing to do with what I quoted in the post of this thread i.e.

قال العلامة المجلسي ق ه: إن أصحابنا الإمامية أجمعوا على عصمة الأنبياء والأئمة صلوات الله عليهم من الذنوب الصغيرة والكبيرة عمداً وخطاً ونسياناً قبل النبوة والإمامة وبعدها بل من وقت ولادتهم إلى أن يلقوا الله سبحانه ولم يخالف فيه إلا الصدوق محمد بن بابويه وشيخه ابن الوليد قدس الله روحهما فجوزا الإسهاء من الله تعالى لا السهو الذي يكون من الشيطان ولعل خروجهما لا يخل بالإجماع لكونهما معروفي النسب وأما السهو في غير ما يتعلق بالواجبات والمحرمات كالمباحات والمكروهات فظاهر أكثر أصحابنا أيضاً الإجماع على عدم صدوره عنهم

The Companions Imami Unanimously Agreed On The Infallibility Of The Prophets And Imams The Sins Of Small And Large, Before His Prophethood And The Imamate And Then, But From The Time Of His Birth To Bring Their God, And No One Disagreed When Only Sheikh Sudooq rah And Sheikh Ibn e Waleed, Most Likely The Omission in Their Work!....

And Majlisi rah Is RIGHT!

As Sheikh Mufid rah In الإعتقادات الإمامية

والأنبياء والأئمة - عليهم السلام - ( 4 ) من بعدهم معصومون في حال نبوتهم وإمامتهم من الكبائر كلها والصغائر ، والعقل يجوز عليهم ترك مندوب إليه على غير التعمد للتقصير والعصيان ، ولا يجوز عليهم ترك مفترض إلا أن نبينا صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم والأئمة - عليهم السلام - من بعده كانوا سالمين من ترك المندوب ، والمفترض قبل حال إمامتهم وبعدها .

فصل ( 5 ) : فأما الوصف لهم بالكمال في كل أحوالهم ، فإن المقطوع به كمالهم في جميع أحوالهم التي كانوا فيها حججا لله تعالى على خلقه .

وقد جاء الخبر بأن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم والأئمة - عليهم السلام - من ذريته كانوا حججا لله تعالى منذ أكمل عقولهم إلى أن قبضهم ، ولم يكن لهم قبل أحوال التكليف أحوال نقص وجهل ، فإنهم يجرون مجرى عيسى ويحيى - عليهما السلام - في حصول الكمال لهم مع صغر السن وقبل بلوغ الحلم .

وهذا أمر تجوزه العقول ولا تنكره ، وليس إلى تكذيب الأخبار سبيل ، والوجه أن نقطع على كمالهم - عليهم السلام - في العلم والعصمة في أحوال النبوة والامامة ، ونتوقف فيما قبل ذلك ، وهل كانت أحوال نبوة وإمامة أم لا ( 1 ) ونقطع على أن العصمة لازمة لهم منذ أكمل الله تعالى عقولهم إلى أن قبضهم - عليهم السلام - ( 2 ) .

Link: http://www.aqaedalshia.com/mofid/03%20nobowa/51/index.htm

Again, you are posting irrelevant quotes. My point is not about major/ minor sins or sahw. Its specifically about non-degradable minor sins before the time of nabuwah/Imamah. FYI, Awail al-Maqalat is the book of Shaykh al-Mufeed, so your label of muqassir would apply to him too and not only him but the majority of Imamaiyah of his time as he said (وهذا مذهب جمهور الإمامية)

w/s

Edited by Jondab_Azdi

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Yes it's irrelevant b/c its nothing to do with what I quoted in the post of this thread i.e.

OK, So The Issue 'sahw' Solved, I Guess!

Again, you are posting irrelevant quotes. My point is not about major/ minor sins or sahw. Its specifically about non-degradable minor sins before the time of nabuwah/Imamah. FYI, Awail al-Maqalat is the book of Shaykh al-Mufeed, so your label of muqassir would apply to him too and not only him but the majority of Imamaiyah of his time as he said (æåÐÇ ãÐåÈ ÌãåæÑ ÇáÅãÇãíÉ)

w/s

For Nabuwwah There Was Tark e Awlah

But for Imamah, There Is NO Evidence!

And This Clarify His rah's Position Very Much!

ÇáÅÚÊÞÇÏÇÊ ÇáÅãÇãíÉ

æÇáÃäÈíÇÁ æÇáÃÆãÉ - Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã - ( 4 ) ãä ÈÚÏåã ãÚÕæãæä Ýí ÍÇá äÈæÊåã æÅãÇãÊåã ãä ÇáßÈÇÆÑ ßáåÇ æÇáÕÛÇÆÑ ¡ æÇáÚÞá íÌæÒ Úáíåã ÊÑß ãäÏæÈ Åáíå Úáì ÛíÑ ÇáÊÚãÏ ááÊÞÕíÑ æÇáÚÕíÇä ¡ æáÇ íÌæÒ Úáíåã ÊÑß ãÝÊÑÖ ÅáÇ Ãä äÈíäÇ Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã æÇáÃÆãÉ - Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã - ãä ÈÚÏå ßÇäæÇ ÓÇáãíä ãä ÊÑß ÇáãäÏæÈ ¡ æÇáãÝÊÑÖ ÞÈá ÍÇá ÅãÇãÊåã æÈÚÏåÇ .

ÝÕá ( 5 ) : ÝÃãÇ ÇáæÕÝ áåã ÈÇáßãÇá Ýí ßá ÃÍæÇáåã ¡ ÝÅä ÇáãÞØæÚ Èå ßãÇáåã Ýí ÌãíÚ ÃÍæÇáåã ÇáÊí ßÇäæÇ ÝíåÇ ÍÌÌÇ ááå ÊÚÇáì Úáì ÎáÞå .

æÞÏ ÌÇÁ ÇáÎÈÑ ÈÃä ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æÓáã æÇáÃÆãÉ - Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã - ãä ÐÑíÊå ßÇäæÇ ÍÌÌÇ ááå ÊÚÇáì ãäÐ Ãßãá ÚÞæáåã Åáì Ãä ÞÈÖåã ¡ æáã íßä áåã ÞÈá ÃÍæÇá ÇáÊßáíÝ ÃÍæÇá äÞÕ æÌåá ¡ ÝÅäåã íÌÑæä ãÌÑì ÚíÓì æíÍíì - ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã - Ýí ÍÕæá ÇáßãÇá áåã ãÚ ÕÛÑ ÇáÓä æÞÈá ÈáæÛ ÇáÍáã .

æåÐÇ ÃãÑ ÊÌæÒå ÇáÚÞæá æáÇ ÊäßÑå ¡ æáíÓ Åáì ÊßÐíÈ ÇáÃÎÈÇÑ ÓÈíá ¡ æÇáæÌå Ãä äÞØÚ Úáì ßãÇáåã - Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã - Ýí ÇáÚáã æÇáÚÕãÉ Ýí ÃÍæÇá ÇáäÈæÉ æÇáÇãÇãÉ ¡ æäÊæÞÝ ÝíãÇ ÞÈá Ðáß ¡ æåá ßÇäÊ ÃÍæÇá äÈæÉ æÅãÇãÉ Ãã áÇ ( 1 ) æäÞØÚ Úáì Ãä ÇáÚÕãÉ áÇÒãÉ áåã ãäÐ Ãßãá Çááå ÊÚÇáì ÚÞæáåã Åáì Ãä ÞÈÖåã - Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã - ( 2 ) .

Link: http://www.aqaedalshia.com/mofid/03%20nobowa/51/index.htm

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OK, So The Issue 'sahw' Solved, I Guess!

Not even a issue in this thread. But we have clear sahih hadith about Prophet's sahw in al-Faqih.

For Nabuwwah There Was Tark e Awlah

But for Imamah, There Is NO Evidence!

And This Clarify His rah's Position Very Much!

الإعتقادات الإمامية

والأنبياء والأئمة - عليهم السلام - ( 4 ) من بعدهم معصومون في حال نبوتهم وإمامتهم من الكبائر كلها والصغائر ، والعقل يجوز عليهم ترك مندوب إليه على غير التعمد للتقصير والعصيان ، ولا يجوز عليهم ترك مفترض إلا أن نبينا صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم والأئمة - عليهم السلام - من بعده كانوا سالمين من ترك المندوب ، والمفترض قبل حال إمامتهم وبعدها .

فصل ( 5 ) : فأما الوصف لهم بالكمال في كل أحوالهم ، فإن المقطوع به كمالهم في جميع أحوالهم التي كانوا فيها حججا لله تعالى على خلقه .

وقد جاء الخبر بأن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم والأئمة - عليهم السلام - من ذريته كانوا حججا لله تعالى منذ أكمل عقولهم إلى أن قبضهم ، ولم يكن لهم قبل أحوال التكليف أحوال نقص وجهل ، فإنهم يجرون مجرى عيسى ويحيى - عليهما السلام - في حصول الكمال لهم مع صغر السن وقبل بلوغ الحلم .

وهذا أمر تجوزه العقول ولا تنكره ، وليس إلى تكذيب الأخبار سبيل ، والوجه أن نقطع على كمالهم - عليهم السلام - في العلم والعصمة في أحوال النبوة والامامة ، ونتوقف فيما قبل ذلك ، وهل كانت أحوال نبوة وإمامة أم لا ( 1 ) ونقطع على أن العصمة لازمة لهم منذ أكمل الله تعالى عقولهم إلى أن قبضهم - عليهم السلام - ( 2 ) .

Link: http://www.aqaedalshia.com/mofid/03%20nobowa/51/index.htm

Instead of quoting irrelevant quote would you tell me what do you understand by the following red-quoted parts:

إن جميع أنبياء الله - صلوات الله عليهم - معصومون من الكبائر قبل النبوة وبعدها وما يستخف فاعله من الصغائر كلها، وأما ما كان من صغير لا يستخف فاعله فجائز وقوعه منهم قبل النبوة وعلى غير تعمد وممتنع منهم بعدها على كل حال، وهذا مذهب جمهور الإمامية، والمعتزلة بأسرها تخالف فيه

إن الأئمة القائمين مقام الأنبياء (ص) في تنفيذ الأحكام وإقامة الحدود وحفظ الشرائع وتأديب الأنام (1) معصومون كعصمة الأنبياء، وإنهم لا يجوز منهم صغيرة إلا ما قدمت ذكر جوازه على الأنبياء

w/s

Edited by Jondab_Azdi

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Not even a issue in this thread. But we have clear sahih hadith about Prophet's sahw in al-Faqih.

Instead of quoting irrelevant quote would you tell me what do you understand by the following red-quoted parts:

إن جميع أنبياء الله - صلوات الله عليهم - معصومون من الكبائر قبل النبوة وبعدها وما يستخف فاعله من الصغائر كلها، وأما ما كان من صغير لا يستخف فاعله فجائز وقوعه منهم قبل النبوة وعلى غير تعمد وممتنع منهم بعدها على كل حال، وهذا مذهب جمهور الإمامية، والمعتزلة بأسرها تخالف فيه

إن الأئمة القائمين مقام الأنبياء (ص) في تنفيذ الأحكام وإقامة الحدود وحفظ الشرائع وتأديب الأنام (1) معصومون كعصمة الأنبياء، وإنهم لا يجوز منهم صغيرة إلا ما قدمت ذكر جوازه على الأنبياء

w/s

Sheikh Ibrahim Zanjani:

"قوله في القول 32 ( من صغير لا يستخف فاعله فجائز ) وفي بعض النسخ ( لا يستحق فاعله اللوم ) وأيا ما كان فالجمع بينه وبين سائر عباراته في المسألة وما ادعى عليه الإجماع والضرورة من عدم صدور الصغائر والكبائر مطلقا من الأنبياء تقضي بتفسير هذه العبارة بالصغائر التي لا تبلغ حد المعصية ويسميها علمائنا رضوان الله تعالى عليهم بترك الأولى ، و تشير إليه كلمة ( على غير تعمد ) إذ لا معصية بدون العمد .

Same As I Understand!

(wasalam)

Edited by syed_demanding

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How do you or I know what the prophets did in private?

When a teacher asks a question to the student even though he/she knows the answer, is he being a hypocrite? Stop being silly.

Why do you resort to name calling?

Do you read the quran? Can you please open it and go read it again from the beginning, because it seems to me you have skipped over the verses where the prophets asked for forgiveness from Allah. I asked for someone to explain it, and you don't really seem capable of doing it. I found the answer somewhere else.

One of the morals taught to man by Islam is also this: however hard and sincerely may man be trying to serve and worship his Lord and fighting and struggling in the cause of His Religion, he should never be involved in the misunderstanding that he has done and accomplished whatever he was required to do. Rather, on the contrary, he should have the feeling that he has not been able to do full justice to what was expected of him by his Lord and Master.

Teaching us argument is still valid.

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Rather it is the height of imaan what I am talking about. Of course the Prophets believed in everything they did, but even then they demonstrated that they could not obey Allah in the way that he deserved and for this they prayed for forgiveness.

^^^

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