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jawaidalirizvi

10th Muharrum......amazing Photo

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(salam)

Hurting yourself is not permissible, brother. What more do you want?

How did you come to that conclusion?

Read this :- It should help those who 'deny' the rituals of Muharram..

Eltemase Doa.

Edited by Nokare-Zahra

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(salam)

How did you come to that conclusion?

Read this :- It should help those who 'deny' the rituals of Muharram..

Eltemase Doa.

Sorry bro, can you tell me your own interpretation of this verse

And spend in the way of Allah, and cast not yourself in destruction with your hand and be good-doers; no doubt! Good doers are the beloveds of Allah. (2:195)

I you personally where just to read that or show it to a friend, what would you make of it? ws

Edited by ShahHussain

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(salam)

How did you come to that conclusion?

Read this :- It should help those who 'deny' the rituals of Muharram..

Eltemase Doa.

Not really. It's full of Sunni references that have no authority for us, and even if they were to be accepted do not sanction hitting one's self as a ritual, only as spontaneous grief. When someone brings a narration that the Prophet (pbuh) remembered the death of Hamza (ra) every year by beating himself, or that the Imams (as) or their followers did the same for Imam Husayn (as), then we can talk. Saying that so-and-so hit themselves out of spontaneous grief or shock doesn't have any relevance to these matam processions.

Once again, we have a clear hadith from Imam Muhammad al Baqir (as) on how to commemorate the martyrdom of Imam Husayn (as), and no one is telling me why it isn't sufficient for them. Is anyone going to answer this question?

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Not really. It's full of Sunni references that have no authority for us, and even if they were to be accepted do not sanction hitting one's self as a ritual, only as spontaneous grief. When someone brings a narration that the Prophet (pbuh) remembered the death of Hamza (ra) every year by beating himself, or that the Imams (as) or their followers did the same for Imam Husayn (as), then we can talk. Saying that so-and-so hit themselves out of spontaneous grief or shock doesn't have any relevance to these matam processions.

Once again, we have a clear hadith from Imam Muhammad al Baqir (as) on how to commemorate the martyrdom of Imam Husayn (as), and no one is telling me why it isn't sufficient for them. Is anyone going to answer this question?

please at least dont use " so and so " dear even janabe zaineb(as) did that

Lady Zaynab (as), when she saw the head of her brother Imam Hussain peace be upon him, being paraded in public hit her forehead on the bar of the carriage she was travelling in, causing bleeding to flow from beneath her veil, which was visible to onlookers who witnessed the event

{Some of the famous references, which confirm the above report, are as follows:

· Bihaar al-Anwaar; volume 45, page 114,

· Jalaa’ al-‘Oyun; volume 2, page 238,

· Zaynab al-Kubra; page 112,

· Asraar al-Shahadah; page 474,

· Al-Muntakhab; volume 2, page 478,

· Nusrat-ul-Madhlum; page 18.

Needless to say that ‘Allamah al-Majlisi – compiler of Bihaar al-Anwaar – and Sheikh al-Shari’ah al-Isfahani have confirmed the authenticity of the report.}

bros and i will be not in touch with you all for nxt few days but when ill come back ill give you little more details.

And i do respect everyone participtng in the discussion so atleast we can share our thoughts.

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please at least dont use " so and so " dear even janabe zaineb(as) did that

Lady Zaynab (as), when she saw the head of her brother Imam Hussain peace be upon him, being paraded in public hit her forehead on the bar of the carriage she was travelling in, causing bleeding to flow from beneath her veil, which was visible to onlookers who witnessed the event

I didn't mean any disrespect, I just said so-and-so as a substitute for all the possible names that are used as examples. I'm familiar with the story of Bibi Zaynab (as) hitting her head when she saw the head of Imam Husayn (as), but once again this was an spontaneous expression of grief, not a ritual she performed every year. You seem to think I am objecting to people hitting themselves out of grief, but I'm not. What I object to is making matam processions a part of Islam. If people were all sitting around lamenting about the story of Karbala, and then some people started hitting themselves out of grief, that might be different, but instead everything is prepared in advance, and there is nothing spontaneous about it. It is nothing more than a ritual, which has now become intertwined with the religion, and this is why I think it is bid'ah.

Again, why don't you answer my question: 'Why is the recommendation of Imam Muhammad al Baqir (as) about how to mourn Karbala in the hadith you quoted not sufficient for you?'

bros and i will be not in touch with you all for nxt few days but when ill come back ill give you little more details.

And i do respect everyone participtng in the discussion so atleast we can share our thoughts.

Yes, it's always good to discuss these issues.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

I'm just a bit confused here, not with what is being said, i fully understand what both parties are saying on this topic. With all due respect to the brother who started this topic,

what is it that you want us to see and accept? Something that our Marjas (those who follow Agha Sistani and Khamanai) and Maulanas do not give permission for?

For those who do follow Agha Sistani and Khamanai will have and will stick by the view of what their marjas say, and quite rightfully so, as that is why we follow a Marja.

Like You quoted brother, your marja may allow zanjeer and qama zani, but mine does not. And of course apart from what our different marjas say, we as individuals have our own

thoughts and explainations to why we accept or don't accept certain things.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ZANJEER OR QAMA ZANI ON ASHURA DURING MUHARRAM

Question by Ahmed: My brother wants to do Qama on 20 Safar, he is following Ayatollah Sistani. Based on the misuse of Qama today, insincerity of many people, diseases spreading around, and political views can I stop him from doing Qama?

Answer by Board of Istifa, Office of Grand Ayatollah Sistani: The main objective of mourning and lamentation during 'Ashura', is to respect the signs and symbols of religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain (as), his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam and prevent the destruction of the religion by Bani Umayyad dynasty. These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. Also its ritual aspect should be preserved. So those actions which are not understandable for the enemies of Islam and non-Shia Muslims and causes misunderstanding and contempt for the religion must be avoided.

Question by Zaeem Sherazi: I want to know the status of beating our backs with knives (ZANJEER) on the day of Ashura? What is it status in our Fiqh?

Answer by Board of Istifa, Office of Grand Ayatollah Sistani: The philosophy of mourning during 'Ashura', is to respect the symbols of religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain (as), his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam and prevent the destruction of the religion by Bani Umayyad dynasty. These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. So those actions which are not understandable and causes misunderstanding and contempt for the religion must be avoided.

Ayatollah Khamenei: Practical Laws of Islam >> Religious Events

Q1430: What is the view on beating the drum and cymbal, blowing the trumpet, and lashing oneself with chains with blades during the processions of the commemoration of the martyrdom of Imam Husayn (a.s.)?

A: If the use of such chains leads, in the eye of the public, to defaming our school of thought or inflicting a noticeable harmful effect on the body, it is not permissible. There is no harm in using the drum, cymbal, and trumpet in the traditional way.

Q1439: Is there any basis in religion for piercing one's body with weights dangling therefrom, all in the name of commemorating the martyrdom of the Imam Husayn (a.s.)?

A: These acts, which are, inevitably, bound to portray our school of thought in a negative shade, are impermissible.

Q1449: In commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Husayn (a.s.) on the tenth of Muharram, some people hit themselves with a machete, or walk bare-footed on fire. Such actions defame Shi'ism and put it in a bad light, if not undermine it. They cause bodily and spiritual harms on these doing it as well. What is your opinion in this matter?

A: Any practice that causes bodily harm, or leads to defaming the faith, is Haram. Accordingly, the believers have to steer clear of it. There is no doubt that many of these practices besmirch the image of Ahlul Bayt's (a.s.) School of Thought which is the worst damage and loss.

Q1450: Is hitting oneself with swords Halal if it is done in secret? Or is your fatwa in this regard universal?

A: In addition to the fact that it is not held in the common view as manifestations of mourning and grief and it has no precedent at the lifetime of the Imams (a.s.) and even after that and we have not received any tradition quoted from the Infallibles (a.s.) about any support for this act, be it privately or publicly, this practice would, at the present time, give others a bad image of our school of thought. Therefore, there is no way that it can be considered permissible.

After reading the above mentioned orders from two Great Ayatollah's of our times. People should start following the orders to safeguard Islam and to fail the propaganda of "Taghoot" and arrogant powers of this era against Shiites proving them "Crazy" & "Insane" people who beat themselves sometimes so hard even threatening their own lives. To see the propaganda of "Taghoot" by yourself to believe, please visit the below given link called as Ashura.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe this website will allow you to see the view of my marja on zanjeer/qama zani, and of another great marja.

http://www.ezsoftech.com/mazloom/zanjeer.asp

Also watch the video, its quite informative i guess.

Brother Ultimately it really comes down to what our Marjas say, and we as shia pledge ourselves to follow them. Right or Wrong thats not for us to decide,

of course we can change our marjas (within good reason), but at the end its them who we follow, as their knowledge is superiour to ours. At the end of the day if our marjas points of

view differ, then ours will too, and we will mould our beliefs to fit their fatwas.

Inshallah i hope nothing i have said has hurt you, as that clearly was not my intention.

Thank You :)

W/s

TPO14

Edited by The Power Of 14

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(salam)

Something that our Marjas (those who follow Agha Sistani and Khamanai) and Maulanas do not give permission for?

Ayatollah Seyed Sistani(HA) allows it, if it's done with the right intention... so what you said is incorrect.

Eltemase Doa.

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(salam)

These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. Also its ritual aspect should be preserved. So those actions which are not understandable for the enemies of Islam and non-Shia Muslims and causes misunderstanding and contempt for the religion must be avoided.

I'm sorry brother, but it seems quite clear that Sayed Sistani does not and I would imagine has never done this himself, he does not agree with it based on the bits I highlighted, he just can't come out and say it bacause the shi'a laymen is so attached to these ritual that they would stop doing taqlid to him as a result of it.

These actions do cause misunderstanding and contmept from nearly every one, aside from those who do them and their families, and they do not serve the purpose of Islam, you only need to type "shi'a islam" into google to see pictures that (most probably) have been proudly posted by shi'a people themselves of them cutting their babies heads open with massive knives.

And the danger is, as the title says, people believe this is the greatest act of worship! I'm going to leave it at that, because any open minded person knows that it is straight up kufr to imply that something not practiced by Rasulullah (pbuh) or the Imams (pbut) is the greatest act of worship as it is implying that they left us without the best key the paradice, but worse, that the safwid kings of iran knew more about what was loved by Allah than Rasulullah (pbuh)

(I'm not saying it is kufr to do it, but to imply it is a great or the greatest act of worship is)

Edited by ShahHussain

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I am in favour of this not being somehow related directly to Islam, rather culture.

Firstly i think if somebody feels as if they need to do this, then they should do it privately, because publicly it gives an image of Islam which at this point of time we don't need, or rather it supports the opinions of people who know little of Islam, and by seeing this it would definitely become a great support in their limited understanding, and obscure them from further inquiring, while building and underlying their prejudice.

Secondly, as far as i have heard, such practices were never carried out during the time of the Imams, not once had it been reported that the followers of Ahlul Bayt ever took part in such events, and surely those during the time of Zainul Abideen etc, if they were informed that this is so rewarding etc, would not hesitate to carry out, as they were ready to give their lives(those imprisoned and oppressed which could not take part in Kerbala) more then the people of our time, and they even faced the real threat which oppressed them and were ready to exterminate them.

Thirdly, again, this gives a bad image, and not that we cant endure the pain, eventually everyone can do it to some extent, but is it really necessary? Like one person on here said, the most difficult action is abstinence from sin, even this is easier to carry out then for example, to completely and utterly avoid ever to backbite, even when your not conscious of it, or you justify it, not to mention the multitude of other sin.

I feels somehow this is a scapegoat, more of public demonstration, and culture which has creeped into Islam, and toppled the great acts of worship and abstinence with something that represents some sort of masochist idea of self punishment of guilt of sin.

it reminds me more of the passion of Christ, then anything else.

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please at least dont use " so and so " dear even janabe zaineb(as) did that

Lady Zaynab (as), when she saw the head of her brother Imam Hussain peace be upon him, being paraded in public hit her forehead on the bar of the carriage she was travelling in, causing bleeding to flow from beneath her veil, which was visible to onlookers who witnessed the event

{Some of the famous references, which confirm the above report, are as follows:

· Bihaar al-Anwaar; volume 45, page 114,

· Jalaa’ al-‘Oyun; volume 2, page 238,

· Zaynab al-Kubra; page 112,

· Asraar al-Shahadah; page 474,

· Al-Muntakhab; volume 2, page 478,

· Nusrat-ul-Madhlum; page 18.

Needless to say that ‘Allamah al-Majlisi – compiler of Bihaar al-Anwaar – and Sheikh al-Shari’ah al-Isfahani have confirmed the authenticity of the report.}

bros and i will be not in touch with you all for nxt few days but when ill come back ill give you little more details.

And i do respect everyone participtng in the discussion so atleast we can share our thoughts.

All the books you provided are weak references. Use whatever false hadeeths you have to support your opinion but lets not extend it to ones that degrade and contradict the great status of Ahlulbayt (as).. ye? lets quit following n using such hadeeths blindly shall we ^_^

Edited by ~*supplication*~

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