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Meisam786110

Saying Ameen After Surah Fatiha

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Right, here I go :

When the Imam of the Ka'aba leads Millions of people in prayer in one of the most holiest sanctuaries in the world ,

he always says 'Ameeen' after reciting Surah al Fatiha , and so does everybody else behind him .

There are some Shia scholars like Imam Khomeini who decreed that saying Ameen after surah Fatiha invalidates your prayer

and don't tell me he didn't say this because it's written and furthermore us Shias don't say ameen in congregation which supports the fact that we

also think saying Ameen invalidates the prayer ... Contrary to this I've seen many hadeeths stating that the Holy Prophet (saw) used to say Ameen loudly

after reciting Surah Fatiha .

To me, you say Ameen after an invocation and that's exactly what surah Fatiha is .. An invocation to Allah (swt) ..

But if it is true that saying ameen totally breaks the prayer in half ... Then are you telling me that Every Single prayer near

the House of Allah is Invalid for millions of people praying there. !?

And to add to that , in the Masjid-ul-Haram the person leading the prayers never say ' Bismillah' Aloud .... Does THIS invalidate the salah of millions of people

praying over there ?

Seriously puzzles me .....

Plz answer

jazkallah x

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(bismillah)

To start with the bismillaah issue: http://www.*******.org/hadiths/salat/basmala-is-an-ayat-of-al-fatiha

[ 7336 ] 1 Ü ãÍãøÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÓÚíÏ ¡ Úä ÚÈÏ ÇáÑÍãä Èä ÃÈí äÌÑÇä ¡ Úä ÕÝæÇä ÞÇá : ÕáøíÊ ÎáÝ ÃÈí ÚÈÏ Çááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÃíøÇãÇð ÝßÇä íÞÑà Ýí ÝÇÊÍÉ ÇáßÊÇÈ ÈÈÓã Çááå ÇáÑÍãä ÇáÑÍíã ¡ ÝÅÐÇ ßÇäÊ ÕáÇÉ áÇ íÌåÑ ÝíåÇ ÈÇáÞÑÇÁÉ ¡ ÌåÑ ÈÈÓã Çááå ÇáÑÍãä ÇáÑÍíã ¡ æÃÎÝì ãÇ Óæì Ðáß.

Muhammad b. al-Hasan (at-Tusi) by his isnad from al-Husayn b. Sa`id from `Abd ar-Rahman b. Abi Najran from Safwan. He said: I prayed behind Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã for (a number of) days and he would recite bismillahi ‘r-rahmani ‘r-raheem in the Fatiha of the Book. So when it was a salat in which one did not do the recitation out loud, he (would recite) bismillahi ‘r-rahmani ‘r-raheem aloud and recite quietly what was apart from that.

[ 7344 ] 9 Ü ãÍãøÏ Èä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓíä Ýí ( ÇáãÌÇáÓ ) æ( Úíæä ÇáÃÎÈÇÑ ) : Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÇáÞÇÓã ÇáãÝÓøÑ ¡ Úä íæÓÝ Èä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÒíÇÏ ¡ æÚáí ÇÈä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÓíøÇÑ ¡ Úä ÃÈæíåãÇ ¡ Úä ÇáÍÓä Èä Úáí ÇáÚÓßÑí ¡ Úä ÂÈÇÆå ¡ Úä ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä ( Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã ) Ü Ýí ÍÏíË Ü Ãäøå ÞÇá : ÈÓã Çááå ÇáÑÍãä ÇáÑÍíã ÂíÉ ãä ÝÇÊÍÉ ÇáßÊÇÈ æåí ÓÈÚ ÂíÇÊ ÊãÇãåÇ ÈÓã Çááå ÇáÑÍãä ÇáÑÍíã.

Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn (as-Saduq) in al-Majalis and `Uyun al-Akhbar from Muhammad b. al-Qasim the mufassir from Yunus b. Muhammad b. Ziyad and `Ali b. Muhammad b. Sayyar from their father from al-Hasan b. `Ali al-`Askari from his fathers from Amir al-Mu’mineen Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã in a hadith wherein he said: bismillahi ‘r-rahmani ‘r-raheem is an aya from the Fatiha of the Book, and it is seven ayat, its completeness is bismillahi ‘r-rahmani ‘r-raheem.

If one doesn't recite it outloud, this is upon them. Allaah is most just and will decide according to what is correct. They are sunnis anyway, but I haven't been told that coming from sunni to shi'a I have to make up those years of salaah either. Islaam teaches if you're ignorant of a rule then you're not held accountable. and Allaahu a'lim.

I say the same for "ameen" but of course Allaah is the all knower and is most just and I'm not a scholar to actually decide or determine anything.

Here is a hadeeth about saying "ameen" and what we should be saying instead: http://www.*******.org/hadiths/salat/amin-after-al-fatiha

ÃÎÈÑäí ÇáÔíÎ ÑÍãå Çááå Úä ÃÈí ÇáÞÇÓã ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ Úä Úáí Èä ÇÈÑÇåíã Úä ÃÈíå Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ÇáãÛíÑÉ Úä Ìãíá Èä ÏÑÇÌ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Ú) ÞÇá: ÅÐÇ ßäÊ ÎáÝ ÅãÇã ÝÞÑà ÇáÍãÏ æÝÑÛ ãä ÞÑÇÆÊåÇ ÝÞá ÃäÊ ÇáÍãÏ ááå ÑÈ ÇáÚÇáãíä æáÇ ÊÞá Âãíä.

The Shaykh, Allah have mercy on him, informed me from Abu 'l-Qasim Ja`far b. Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from `Abdullah b. Mughira from Jamil b. Durraj from Abu `Abdillah (as). He said: When you are behind an imam and he has recited al-Hamd, and finished its recitation, then you say "al-hamdu lillahi rabbi 'l-`alimeen", and do not say "ameen."

Now if you go and deliberately say ameen and don't say the bismillaah aloud when you are aware that we are commanded by our Imams and Rasulullaah not to do that, then the validity of your salaah is obviously much more in question.

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(bismillah)

Saying the Bismillah in the Zhuhr and `Asr prayers loudly is Mustahab (I believe a Mu'akad Sunnah as well) but it is not Wajib. As for the loud bismillah in the Maghrib, Isha and Fajr - is is part of the Surah and thus part of the Qira'ah so it is wajib to be pronounced loudly for men.

(salam)

Edited by Dar'ul_Islam

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According to Hanafi fiqh, reciting Bismillah before Surah al-Fatiha is a confirmed Sunnah. However, given the system of ranking in the Hanafi school, this pretty much means that it should not be left out. The manner of its recitation is quietly, but I have seen a difference of opinion. In addition, it is good to recite Bismillah before the recitation of all other Surahs. It remains good because Sunnis don't have daleel confirming this as of the Sunnah. In addition, it is a confirmed Sunnah to say Ameen silently after the recitation of Surah al-Fatihah.

The Shafi'i position on the Bismillah before Surah al-Fatiha is the same as the Shi'a position that it is part of the Surah. Therefore, it is fard to recite it loudly in prayer. However, the Shafi'is believe that it is the only Bismillah in the Qur'an. Therefore, the Shafi'i school does not consider it even a Sunnah to recite the Bismillah before other Surahs.

The Malikis consider the Bismillah to not even be part of Surah al-Fatiha. Therefore, it is makrooh tahriman, according to their school, to recite the Bismillah even before Surah al-Fatiha or anywhere else in salah. While Imam Malik (ra) may have some of the strongest opinions on other issues, his position on this issue is considered the weakest in Ahlul Sunnah on this issue.

The Hanbali position is, I believe, the same as the Hanafi position.

I am a Hanafi, but apparently I follow the Shi'a position on the issue of reciting Bismillah before Surah al-Fatiah and all other Surahs. That's just how I was raised. In fact, the majority of Sunnis that I've ever come into contact with recite Bismillah before every Surah in prayer. So, it leads me to believe that there is much ikhtilaf on this issue amongst Ahlul Sunnah and within each school as well. As for the Ameen, I follow the Hanafi position on this and say it silently. Although, I will have to say that the Shi'a position, praising Allah by saying that ayah, makes plenty of sense. I just wish we had dalail to support it.

Imam Khomeini's (qas) decree is interesting. However, wouldn't it only apply to Shi'as (who did his taqlid)? The rest of the Muslims follow different schools of fiqh and would be judged according to what they follow. This is one reason why fiqh is considered a secondary issue compared to aqeedah, which is primary.

Edited by ninjaslim

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Ok, I understand we're not meant to say ameen after Surah Al-Fatiha after namaz in a masjid...but what about individual namaz at home? Can one say ameen after surah al-fatiha then?

(bismillah)

To start with the bismillaah issue: http://www.*******.org/hadiths/salat/basmala-is-an-ayat-of-al-fatiha

[ 7336 ] 1 Ü ãÍãøÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÇáÍÓíä Èä ÓÚíÏ ¡ Úä ÚÈÏ ÇáÑÍãä Èä ÃÈí äÌÑÇä ¡ Úä ÕÝæÇä ÞÇá : ÕáøíÊ ÎáÝ ÃÈí ÚÈÏ Çááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÃíøÇãÇð ÝßÇä íÞÑà Ýí ÝÇÊÍÉ ÇáßÊÇÈ ÈÈÓã Çááå ÇáÑÍãä ÇáÑÍíã ¡ ÝÅÐÇ ßÇäÊ ÕáÇÉ áÇ íÌåÑ ÝíåÇ ÈÇáÞÑÇÁÉ ¡ ÌåÑ ÈÈÓã Çááå ÇáÑÍãä ÇáÑÍíã ¡ æÃÎÝì ãÇ Óæì Ðáß.

Muhammad b. al-Hasan (at-Tusi) by his isnad from al-Husayn b. Sa`id from `Abd ar-Rahman b. Abi Najran from Safwan. He said: I prayed behind Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã for (a number of) days and he would recite bismillahi ‘r-rahmani ‘r-raheem in the Fatiha of the Book. So when it was a salat in which one did not do the recitation out loud, he (would recite) bismillahi ‘r-rahmani ‘r-raheem aloud and recite quietly what was apart from that.

[ 7344 ] 9 Ü ãÍãøÏ Èä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓíä Ýí ( ÇáãÌÇáÓ ) æ( Úíæä ÇáÃÎÈÇÑ ) : Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÇáÞÇÓã ÇáãÝÓøÑ ¡ Úä íæÓÝ Èä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÒíÇÏ ¡ æÚáí ÇÈä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÓíøÇÑ ¡ Úä ÃÈæíåãÇ ¡ Úä ÇáÍÓä Èä Úáí ÇáÚÓßÑí ¡ Úä ÂÈÇÆå ¡ Úä ÃãíÑ ÇáãÄãäíä ( Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã ) Ü Ýí ÍÏíË Ü Ãäøå ÞÇá : ÈÓã Çááå ÇáÑÍãä ÇáÑÍíã ÂíÉ ãä ÝÇÊÍÉ ÇáßÊÇÈ æåí ÓÈÚ ÂíÇÊ ÊãÇãåÇ ÈÓã Çááå ÇáÑÍãä ÇáÑÍíã.

Muhammad b. `Ali b. al-Husayn (as-Saduq) in al-Majalis and `Uyun al-Akhbar from Muhammad b. al-Qasim the mufassir from Yunus b. Muhammad b. Ziyad and `Ali b. Muhammad b. Sayyar from their father from al-Hasan b. `Ali al-`Askari from his fathers from Amir al-Mu’mineen Úáíåã ÇáÓáÇã in a hadith wherein he said: bismillahi ‘r-rahmani ‘r-raheem is an aya from the Fatiha of the Book, and it is seven ayat, its completeness is bismillahi ‘r-rahmani ‘r-raheem.

If one doesn't recite it outloud, this is upon them. Allaah is most just and will decide according to what is correct. They are sunnis anyway, but I haven't been told that coming from sunni to shi'a I have to make up those years of salaah either. Islaam teaches if you're ignorant of a rule then you're not held accountable. and Allaahu a'lim.

I say the same for "ameen" but of course Allaah is the all knower and is most just and I'm not a scholar to actually decide or determine anything.

Here is a hadeeth about saying "ameen" and what we should be saying instead: http://www.*******.org/hadiths/salat/amin-after-al-fatiha

ÃÎÈÑäí ÇáÔíÎ ÑÍãå Çááå Úä ÃÈí ÇáÞÇÓã ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ Úä Úáí Èä ÇÈÑÇåíã Úä ÃÈíå Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ÇáãÛíÑÉ Úä Ìãíá Èä ÏÑÇÌ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Ú) ÞÇá: ÅÐÇ ßäÊ ÎáÝ ÅãÇã ÝÞÑà ÇáÍãÏ æÝÑÛ ãä ÞÑÇÆÊåÇ ÝÞá ÃäÊ ÇáÍãÏ ááå ÑÈ ÇáÚÇáãíä æáÇ ÊÞá Âãíä.

The Shaykh, Allah have mercy on him, informed me from Abu 'l-Qasim Ja`far b. Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from `Abdullah b. Mughira from Jamil b. Durraj from Abu `Abdillah (as). He said: When you are behind an imam and he has recited al-Hamd, and finished its recitation, then you say "al-hamdu lillahi rabbi 'l-`alimeen", and do not say "ameen."

Now if you go and deliberately say ameen and don't say the bismillaah aloud when you are aware that we are commanded by our Imams and Rasulullaah not to do that, then the validity of your salaah is obviously much more in question.

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(salam)

^no

No ameen ever in prayer after fatihah the prayer to Allah stands with out it being said.

(wasalam)

Edited by AlMuttaqi

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Ok, I understand we're not meant to say ameen after Surah Al-Fatiha after namaz in a masjid...but what about individual namaz at home? Can one say ameen after surah al-fatiha then?

No. If there was a hadeeth that I knew about that allowed this then I would tell you.

Even when I was sunni I didn't say ameen when I did prayers by myself. Not sure if that's specifically a wahabi thing though or if it was my own thing or what. But even sunnis I haven't seen saying the ameen when they pray alone. The sunni ahadeeth that even say to say ameen also specify when it's behind an imam and don't mention anything about salaah alone.

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(salam)

^ Do wahhabi's not say ameen as well?

(wasalam)

(bismillah)

(wasalam)

No, no they definitely do. But they do it when praying behind an imam. I don't remember ever seeing a wahabi do it when praying alone and I was never specifically taught to say it when praying alone. But then again it's been awhile and if I saw others do it then it wasn't something I took notice of.. which is what makes me think they don't do it.. otherwise I would have questioned myself as to why I wasn't doing it too. Unless I said it in my alone prayers too.. hm.. now that I think about it maybe I did?? I can't remember. You're making me doubt myself lol

Thinking back, I remember making a conscious decision during my transition from sunni to shi'a NOT to say ameen.. but at that time I used to lead my room mate in prayer quite a lot so I may have stopped saying it in jamaa' if I already wasn't saying it alone.

IF they do it in individual prayers then I do remember not being specifically taught to do it, I would have been doing it based on my own understanding from the hadeeth. And when wahabis are together they almost always pray jamaa' so this is why it's so hard for me to remember if they do or don't do it when praying alone.

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(salam),

Just to point out... most Maraji' would consider saying 'Ameen' as something that invalidates the prayer, because you're saying something which is not part of the prayer (according to your school). The rule that you can not intentionally utter a single 'Ah' in prayer would still apply.

For example, according to Sayyid Sistani:

The fourth thing which invalidates prayers is to say 'Amin' after Surah al-Hamd. This rule, when applied to one praying individually, is based on Ihtiyat, but if someone utters it believing that it has been ordained by Shariah, it is haraam. There is no harm if someone utters it erroneously or under taqayya

http://al-sistani.org/local.php?modules=nav&nid=2&bid=59&pid=2964

and, according to Sayyid Khamenei:

Q 499: When attending congregational prayers with the Sunnī brothers, the word “āmmīn” is pronounced loudly after the imam finishes reciting the Fātiḥah. What is the ruling on this?

A: If dissimulation requires saying “āmmīn” in the said situation, there is no problem in it; otherwise, it is not permissible.

-------

By the way, can anybody point out the origin of the word, 'A'ameen'?

AFAIK, Christians and Jews use it as well, and it is a word of Hebrew origin. Was its usage not abrogated after the advent of Islam?

wa (salam)

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By the way, can anybody point out the origin of the word, 'A'ameen'?

AFAIK, Christians and Jews use it as well, and it is a word of Hebrew origin. Was its usage not abrogated after the advent of Islam?

wa (salam)

(wasalam)

This is what I've always been told which is why evidently we're not allowed to say it (since it's not Arabic).. but I don't have any sources for it.

To point out, the Christians don't say it exactly the same way we do anyway. We say aaaameen, they say ah-men

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(salam),

Just to point out... most Maraji' would consider saying 'Ameen' as something that invalidates the prayer, because you're saying something which is not part of the prayer (according to your school). The rule that you can not intentionally utter a single 'Ah' in prayer would still apply.

1. There is no proof that saying ameen invalidates your prayer. Although if you're a Shia, there's no point in saying it in the manner that the Sunnis do.

2. Haven't read a hadith about uttering "Ah." I can't think of a hadith through which you could extrapolate that uttering this accidentally would break your prayer. The only form of speech I have come across that breaks your prayer is speaking to other humans. For instance, there is a hadith that says if you start the prayer, and then say, "Straighten your lines," the prayer is broken.

There is a sahih hadith which says that we should say ameen, but it is explained as tuqyah:

‎وأما ما رواه الحسين بن سعيد عن ابن أبي عمير عن جميل قال سألت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام: عن قول الناس في الصلاة جماعة حين تقرأ فاتحة الكتاب آمين قال: ما أحسنها واخفض الصوت بها

There is a narration where the Prophet is recorded to have said "ameen" outside of prayer. Imams as well. A lot of them are weak. This is from Ma'ani al-Akhbar:

‎حدثنا أبي - رحمه الله - قال: حدثنا أحمد بن إدريس، عن محمد بن أحمد، قال: حدثني عمر بن على بن عمر بن يزيد، عن الحسين بن قارن(1) رفعه إلى أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: إن تفسير قولك: " آمين " رب افعل. وروي في حديث آخر آمين اسم من أسماء الله عزوجل.

http://www.u-of-islam.net/uofislam/maktaba/Hadith/Akhbar2/a169.htm

عبدالله بن الحسن، عن جده علي بن جعفر، عن أخيه موسى ابن جعفر عليه السلام، قال: سألت اخي عن الرجل يدعو وحوله إخوانه، يجب عليهم أن يؤمنوا؟ قال: " لان شاؤوا فعلوا، ولان شاؤوا سكتوا، فإن دعا وقال لهم: أمنوا، وجب عليهم أن يفعلوا

http://www.al-shia.org/html/ara/books/lib-hadis/qorb_asnad/a37.htm

مرسلة المفيد في المقنعة عن ابي جعفر الباقر (ع) (في حديث) ان رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله قال: قال لي جبرئيل من ذكرت عنده فلم يصل عليك فابعده الله قلت آمين

وعن عدة من أصحابنا ، عن أحمد بن محمد بن خالد ، عن الحجال ، عن ثعلبة ، عن علي بن عقبة ، عن رجل ، عن أبي عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) قال : كان أبي ( عليه السلام ) إذا حزنه أمر دعا النساء والصبيان ثم دعا وأمنوا .

قال جعفر بن محمد (عليهما السلام) انما كانت النصارى تقولها. وعنه عن آبائه (عليهم السلام) قال قال رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) لا تزال امتي بخير وعلى شريعة من دينها حسنة جميلة ما لم يتخطوا القلة باقدامهم ولم ينصرفوا قياما كفعل اهل الكتاب ولم تكن ضجة آمين

Others as well, but based on my limited search I can't find anything authentic about its use outside of prayer.

Edited by avjar7

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Others as well, but based on my limited search I can't find anything authentic about its use outside of prayer.

The following is authentic I think. . .

ابن محبوب، عن جميل بن صالح أنه ذكر أيضا مثله وذكر أنه دعاء علي بن الحسين صلوات الله عليهما وزاد في آخره " آمين رب العالمين

For complete narration. . . Pg. 590, H # 31 http://www.al-shia.org/html/ara/books/lib-hadis/al-kafi-2/20.htm

w/s

Edited by Jondab_Azdi

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(salam)

I have read in many books of jurisprudence that it makes your salah batil. Also, only Salafis say it after prayer. The reasoning is that you are saying "Let it be", and that demeans the authority of the Qur'an since whatever is in the Qur'an is Allah's word and Allah's word always manifests itself. You say ameen after a dua in the HOPE that Allah will accept your plea.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

This is where sometimes I doubt some decisions of our 'ulema.

We're allowed to talk to Allah(swt) during the prayer (other than Quran recitation)

And we have a number of ahadith of the Prophet (pbuh) communicating with Allah(swt) during the prayer.

For example, after the verse:

أَلَيْسَ ذَٰلِكَ بِقَادِرٍ عَلَىٰ أَنْ يُحْيِيَ الْمَوْتَىٰ

one may say:

!سبحاك بلى

How would amen be any different?

Now, if a scholar wants to say, "You should avoid saying amen after Surat al-Fatiha because if everyone always says it, then it turns into an innovation." then I agree with them 100%

But what's the daleel for saying your prayer is invalid? You are allowed to talk to Allah(swt) during the prayer (other than Quran recitation)

Edited by lotfilms

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(bismillah)

(salam)

This is where sometimes I doubt some decisions of our 'ulema.

We're allowed to talk to Allah(swt) during the prayer (other than Quran recitation)

And we have a number of ahadith of the Prophet (pbuh) communicating with Allah(swt) during the prayer.

For example, after the verse:

ÃóáóíúÓó Ðóٰáößó ÈöÞóÇÏöÑò Úóáóìٰ Ãóäú íõÍúíöíó ÇáúãóæúÊóìٰ

one may say:

!ÓÈÍÇß Èáì

How would amen be any different?

Now, if a scholar wants to say, "You should avoid saying amen after Surat al-Fatiha because if everyone always says it, then it turns into an innovation." then I agree with them 100%

But what's the daleel for saying your prayer is invalid? You are allowed to talk to Allah(swt) during the prayer (other than Quran recitation)

makes me wonder why it is so famous to recite ameen at the end of sura fatehah ONLY and not the other suras. very fishy.

and saying ameen is just one word to talking to God. makes no sense at all.

the sura fateha is as beautiful as it is, adding or 'lessing' one word ...makes it so very different.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

and saying ameen is just one word to talking to God. makes no sense at all.

Of course it makes sense. "Èáì" is just one word too (meaning "Yes!"), and yet when you hear a verse like:

ÃáíÓ Çááå ÈÃÍßã ÇáÍÇßãíä

Isn't God the Most Just of Judges?

You may respond (in the prayer) by saying:

!Èáì

Yes!

The question isn't if one should say it or not. The question is, does it make your prayer invalid?

was salam

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(bismillah)

(wasalam)

I think there's a lot of hypotheses as to why ameen isn't something that we're allowed to say after Al-Fatiha, but for me to hear the Imams say don't say it and replace it with something else is sufficient for me. Of course it would be nice to understand why saying ameen isn't good, but I'd like to point out that speculating without citations is only spreading hearsay.

And it is important to know whether or not it actually breaks your prayer, but isn't knowing that the Imams told you not to do it enough for you not to want to do it anyway?

ÃÎÈÑäí ÇáÔíÎ ÑÍãå Çááå Úä ÃÈí ÇáÞÇÓã ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ Úä Úáí Èä ÇÈÑÇåíã Úä ÃÈíå Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ÇáãÛíÑÉ Úä Ìãíá Èä ÏÑÇÌ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Ú) ÞÇá: ÅÐÇ ßäÊ ÎáÝ ÅãÇã ÝÞÑà ÇáÍãÏ æÝÑÛ ãä ÞÑÇÆÊåÇ ÝÞá ÃäÊ ÇáÍãÏ ááå ÑÈ ÇáÚÇáãíä æáÇ ÊÞá Âãíä.

The Shaykh, Allah have mercy on him, informed me from Abu 'l-Qasim Ja`far b. Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from `Abdullah b. Mughira from Jamil b. Durraj from Abu `Abdillah . He said: When you are behind an imam and he has recited al-Hamd, and finished its recitation, then you say "al-hamdu lillahi rabbi 'l-`alimeen", and do not say "ameen."

(bismillah)

(salam)

Of course it makes sense. "Èáì" is just one word too (meaning "Yes!"), and yet when you hear a verse like:

ÃáíÓ Çááå ÈÃÍßã ÇáÍÇßãíä

Isn't God the Most Just of Judges?

You may respond (in the prayer) by saying:

!Èáì

Yes!

The question isn't if one should say it or not. The question is, does it make your prayer invalid?

was salam

(wasalam)

One may argue that it's an Arabic word and/or that it's established in the sunnah, whereas ameen isn't. We don't have authentic (non-taqiyyah) ahadeeth saying that we should/can say ameen but you said there's evidence rasulullaah said other things during salaah which means those things are established in the sunnah and thus allowed for us.

Unless there's a hadeeth out there saying we can't do this and it was something only allowed for rasulullaah.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

ÃÎÈÑäí ÇáÔíÎ ÑÍãå Çááå Úä ÃÈí ÇáÞÇÓã ÌÚÝÑ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä íÚÞæÈ Úä Úáí Èä ÇÈÑÇåíã Úä ÃÈíå Úä ÚÈÏÇááå Èä ÇáãÛíÑÉ Úä Ìãíá Èä ÏÑÇÌ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏÇááå (Ú) ÞÇá: ÅÐÇ ßäÊ ÎáÝ ÅãÇã ÝÞÑà ÇáÍãÏ æÝÑÛ ãä ÞÑÇÆÊåÇ ÝÞá ÃäÊ ÇáÍãÏ ááå ÑÈ ÇáÚÇáãíä æáÇ ÊÞá Âãíä.

The Shaykh, Allah have mercy on him, informed me from Abu 'l-Qasim Ja`far b. Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from `Abdullah b. Mughira from Jamil b. Durraj from Abu `Abdillah . He said: When you are behind an imam and he has recited al-Hamd, and finished its recitation, then you say "al-hamdu lillahi rabbi 'l-`alimeen", and do not say "ameen."

I've seen this and I don't understand the reasoning behind this other than to just differentiate ourselves from the Sunnis.

was salam

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(bismillah)

(salam)

I've seen this and I don't understand the reasoning behind this other than to just differentiate ourselves from the Sunnis.

was salam

(bismillah)

(wasalam)

The hadeeth doesn't say anything about differencing ourselves from the sunnis. You don't know the reasons behind why the Imam said this and you shouldn't assume that you know. It could simply be that the sunnis were doing a bid'ah and that the Imam said not to do it and was trying to correct his followers and bring them back to the true sunnah. Allaahu a'lim.

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oh. communicating to Allah as in reciting duas in qunut and the sujud before the last tashahud? i can't imagine it seriously...

if it doesn't cause any harm or loss by not saying it then i think im safe without it. "we hear and we obey...." 2:285

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(bismillah)

(wasalam)

One may argue that it's an Arabic word and/or that it's established in the sunnah, whereas ameen isn't. We don't have authentic (non-taqiyyah) ahadeeth saying that we should/can say ameen but you said there's evidence rasulullaah said other things during salaah which means those things are established in the sunnah and thus allowed for us.

Unless there's a hadeeth out there saying we can't do this and it was something only allowed for rasulullaah.

salaam

Bismillah

The reason we dont do it is that when we read surah Fatiha in prayers, we do not read it as a dua. Look at the verse "guide us to the right path, the path of those on whom you showered your blessings". Literally speaking, this verse appears to be a dua which indicates that we are not guided yet, (hence why sunnis say ameen) and we are asking Allah to guide us (as we are misguided). However, this cannot be true, because we know that Allah has already guided us and we are Alhumdolillah shias and true muslims. The actual meaning of this verse is that we declare that we shall remain steadfast on this path and not that we be guided towards it, because we are already on this path. Hence, this is not a dua - it is our declaration. This is why at the end of surah fatiha, we read Alhumdolilah hi rab il alameen (we praise Allah because He has already guided us). As this is not a dua, therefore saying Amin holds no value and is forbidden because it would make the surah a dua, instead of a declaration.

Edited by GhulameSayyeda

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(bismillah)

(salam)

This may be of interest to some:

(bismillah)

(wasalam)

The hadeeth doesn't say anything about differencing ourselves from the sunnis. You don't know the reasons behind why the Imam said this and you shouldn't assume that you know. It could simply be that the sunnis were doing a bid'ah and that the Imam said not to do it and was trying to correct his followers and bring them back to the true sunnah. Allaahu a'lim.

saying "ÇáúÍóãúÏõ áöáóøåö ÑóÈöø ÇáúÚóÇáóãöíäó" after the Fatiha makes absolutely no sense to me :unsure:

But God knows best

was salam

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salaam

Bismillah

The reason we dont do it is that when we read surah Fatiha in prayers, we do not read it as a dua. Look at the verse "guide us to the right path, the path of those on whom you showered your blessings". Literally speaking, this verse appears to be a dua which indicates that we are not guided yet, (hence why sunnis say ameen) and we are asking Allah to guide us (as we are misguided). However, this cannot be true, because we know that Allah has already guided us and we are Alhumdolillah shias and true muslims. The actual meaning of this verse is that we declare that we shall remain steadfast on this path and not that we be guided towards it, because we are already on this path. Hence, this is not a dua - it is our declaration. This is why at the end of surah fatiha, we read Alhumdolilah hi rab il alameen (we praise Allah because He has already guided us). As this is not a dua, therefore saying Amin holds no value and is forbidden because it would make the surah a dua, instead of a declaration.

(bismillah)

(wasalam)

Where did you get this understanding from?

In my opinion, I find it a little dangerous to declare oneself as "guided". You don't know, we don't know, if we're guided yet. And I'd like to argue that we are not truly guided unless we are one of those 313 in the army of Imam Mehdi.

Even though I consider following the ahlul bayt as the path of guidance, I still ask Allaah to guide me because we're all fallible. We make mistakes. We sin and we get confused and lost. So we're not completely guided, we're just getting there and striving for guidance. So basically, I don't feel we, as laymen shi'a, can declare ourselves guided because that knowledge is only with Allaah.

saying "ÇáúÍóãúÏõ áöáóøåö ÑóÈöø ÇáúÚóÇáóãöíäó" after the Fatiha makes absolutely no sense to me :unsure:

But God knows best

was salam

(wasalam)

I don't understand why we have to do tawaf 7 times around the ka'ba, but insha Allaah I'm still going to do it because it was commanded and I want my act of worship to be accepted with as much baraka in it as possible, whether it's salaah or hajj.

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(bismillah)

(wasalam)

Where did you get this understanding from?

In my opinion, I find it a little dangerous to declare oneself as "guided". You don't know, we don't know, if we're guided yet. And I'd like to argue that we are not truly guided unless we are one of those 313 in the army of Imam Mehdi.

Even though I consider following the ahlul bayt as the path of guidance, I still ask Allaah to guide me because we're all fallible. We make mistakes. We sin and we get confused and lost. So we're not completely guided, we're just getting there and striving for guidance. So basically, I don't feel we, as laymen shi'a, can declare ourselves guided because that knowledge is only with Allaah.

salaam

being 'guided' is different from saying we actually follow in all truth, we ARE guided if we are with the Ahl al Bait (as) and the Quran, it doesnt mean we are following each and every aspect in our lives, ie: we know we are supposed to pray all of our salat and nafl but how many people do this? we know it is encombant on us to seek knowledge but how many of us read hadith and try to learn the religion? guided and following are two different things

wa salaam

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(bismillah)

(salam)

However, this cannot be true, because we know that Allah has already guided us and we are Alhumdolillah shias and true muslims.

This is a dangerous thought; we can always improve. Besides, most "Shias" aren't really Shias, if we use the definition of a "Shia" that our Imams (as) give us:

It is reported in Al Kafi (Volume 2, page 74, Hadith No. 3) that Imam Muhammad Baqir(as) addressing Jabir said:

"O Jabir, do you think that it is enough for anyone just to claim by his tongue that he loves Ahlul Bayt? Does he, by such a claim, become our Shiah? Jabir, I swear by the Almighty that until a person fears Allah and obeys Him, he cannot claim to be our Shiah. He must have humility, be just, fulfill his promises, engage as much as possible in the remembrance of Allah, fulfill his obligations of salah and fasting, show affection and sympathy and obedience to his parents, assist and be kind to his neighbours, the poor, those in debt as well as show sympathy and affection to the orphans. He must always be truthful. He should read and study Qur'an. There must never be any malice in his heart (except for enimies of Allah). Without these qualities, he can not qualify to claim that he loves us or is our Shiah. O Jabir, it is not enough for any person only to say by word of mouth that he loves Hadhrat Ali and the Ahlul Bayt. He must follow the 'seerah' (way of life) of the Holy Prophet and the Ahlul Bayt and act according to the sunnah established by them. If he does not, then his claim of love for Ahlul Bayt can never benefit him.

O Jabir, without 'ita'ah' (obedience and submission), nobody can attain proximity to Allah. We do not like them to claim to be our friends if they do not fulfil all the conditions. A sinful person is our enemy. Without good deeds and abstinence from sins, any claim of friendship to us is of no avail."

Imam Ali(as) said:

My Shias! By God! The forbearers, the knowledgeable of God and His religion, actively following Him and His orders, guided by His love, appear weak because of worship, seekers of seclusion for their piousness, of pale complexion because of their night prayers, their eyes are weak because of weeping, their lips are dry because of remembrance of God, their stomachs are sunken because of eating in moderation, their faces reveal Godliness, and simplicity is apparent from their appearance, they are guiding lights in every darkness…they are not recognized even when seen, they are not remembered when not present, these are my pure shias and my respected brothers. Ah! I wish so much to meet them.

Al-Amali, Toosi, p. 1189, hadith # 576

Imam al-Baqir(as):

No one is our Shi’a except by the fear of God and His obedience, and they are not recognized except by their humbleness, reverence, trustworthiness, and abundance of remembrance of God.

Tuhaf al-Uqool, hadith # 295

Imam al-Sadiq(as) said:

Our Shias are those who are pious and men of solid opinion. They are loyal and trustworthy. They are men of piety and worship. They pray fifty-one rak’ats prayers during day and night. They are usually awake in the night. They observe fasts during the day. They purify their property (by paying poor-rate). They perform Hajj of Ka’aba. They abstain from all that which is forbidden.

Al-Bihar, v.68, p. 167, hadith # 23

Imam al-Baqir(as) said:

You shouldn’t be misled by different views (in Islam), for by God nobody is our Shi’a except by obedience to God, the Powerful and Magnificent.

Al-Kafi, v.2, p. 73, hadith # 1

Imam al-Kazim(as) said:

The Shi’a of Ali(as) is the one whose action testifies his words.

Al-Kafi, v.8, p. 228, hadith # 290

Imam Ali(as) said:

Our Shi’a are those who are gnostics of Allah. They act according to the orders of God. They possess excellences. They speak only truth. Their food is limited to gaining strength. Their dress is simple … Their behavior is humble. You think that they have lost their senses, but its not like that. Instead, the greatness of their Lord has made them oblivious and His power has overwhelmed their hearts and taken over their intellects. So when they strongly wish of Him, they promptly strive to do pure actions before God, the Most High. They are not happy with few good actions, and they never take their abundant good actions to be sufficient.

Al-Bihar, v.78, p. 29, hadith # 96

Imam al-Baqir (as) said (describing the attributes of Shias):

They are like strong fortress. Their chests are trustworthy. They are men of prudence and self-control. They are not extravagant. They are neither oppressors nor ostentatious. They are devoted worshippers in night and brave like lion in day.

Mishkat al-Anwar, p. 62

Imam al-Sadiq (as) said:

He is NOT from our Shi’a who lives in a population of several thousand people and someone else is more pious than him among them.

Al-Bihar al-Anwar, vol.2, p. 80, hadith # 76

Imam al-Sadiq (as) said:

He is NOT from our Shi’a who accepts us by only his tongue and is against our actions and our legacy.

Al-Bihar al-Anwar, v.68, p. 164, hadith # 13

Imam al-Sadiq (as) said:

Test our Shia’s on three occasions: At the time of prayers as to how they safeguard their prayers, and when they have a secret as to how they keep them from our enemies and by their properties (and wealth) as to how they spend on their brethren.

Al-Bihar, v.83, p. 22, hadith # 40

Imam al-Sadiq (as) said:

Verily the Shi’a of Ali is the one who is purified of (influence of) stomach and sexual desires, and intense is his struggle and his action is for his Creator, and his hope is for divine reward and he is afraid of his end. So if you see someone like that, then that is the Shi’a of Ja’far (Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq).

Al-Kafi, v.2, p. 233, hadith # 9

Imam al-Sadiq (as) said:

He is NOT from our Shi’a who denies four things: Al-Miraaj (heavenly ascension of the Holy Prophet), and questioning in the grave, and creation of Paradise and Hell and shafa’at (intercession).

Al-Bihar al-Anwar, v.69, p. 9, hadith # 11

Imam al-Sadiq (as) said:

Verily our Shi’a are known for their following attributes: By their generosity towards their brethren and by their praying of fifty one rak’ats of prayers during night and day.

Tuhaf al-Uqool, hadith #303

Imam al-Kazim (as) said:

He is NOT from our Shi’a whose heart is not afraid of God in his loneliness.

Basair al-Darajat, p. 247, hadith # 10

Imam Ali (a) said:

Our Shi’a, they spend on each other for the sake of our wilayah. They love each other for the sake of our love. They visit each other for the sake of keeping alive our affair. They never oppress if they become angry with someone and they never become extravagant in their happiness. They are mercy for their neighbours, and a source of peace and security for those who live with them.

Al-Kafi, v.2, p. 236, hadith # 24

But I don't really want to argue about the legitimacy of amen, because i don't say it and have no reason to say it. What i'm interested in is how is the prayer invalided by it, unless you are always saying it.

Saying that you shouldn't say it is one thing. Saying that your prayer is batil is another. But i learn towards the bi_ithnillah guy that it's probably because it's not an Arabic word and it has been abused to the point of innovation

was salam

Edited by lotfilms

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^^^ that is why I said being guided to the path does not mean we will actually follow it. besides, it was a moulana who gave that explaination in majalis, it doesnt come from ignorance unless moulanas are ignorant, which could also be a possibility

and Allah knows best

in any case we should follow the teachings of the A'imma as

Edited by GhulameSayyeda

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its very confusing for a reader particularly me.

according to the Words of the Infallible Imam's (as) and the scholars in our religion you cannot say ameen after the recitation of surat al fatiha

however, if you want to say something in the praise of Allah (azwj) after this surah you are allowed to say Alhumdolilah hi rab il alameen (All Priase is for Allah lord of the Worlds)

wasalaam

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(salam)

Certain posts in this thread are misleading so I thought I would say a few words insha'Allah.

The "school of Ahlul Bayt" (I'm speaking in very general terms, including both Imami Shi'a and Zaydis) are of the opinion that one should not utter the Ameen after Al-Fatiha. The Shafi'is recite the Basmala and the Ameen audibly. The Basmala is recited on all suras except for surah al-Tawba.

The Malikis do not recite the Basmala whatsoever, and the Ameen is recited inaudibly. As for the Salafis, they are not an unaminous group or math'hab, but they tend to recite the Basmala inaudibly and the Ameen audibly. This is in accordance with the Hanbali school.

wa salam

Edited by Isa Abdullah

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