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texas_muslimah

Questions About The Tragedy Of Thursday

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Assalamualaikum,

So I am relatively new to this forum. I am (or at least have been) a sunni muslim, leaning slightly to the teachings of salafi islam. About three weeks or so ago, perhaps more, I began to learn for myself what Shi'a islam is since no one could tell me. Alhamdulillah, I have been finding real information for the first time. I have recently begun reading about the tragedy of thursday, aka Raziyat Yawmil Khamis.

It is narrated in Sahih Muslim that:

Ibn Abbas said: "Thursday! And how tragic that Thursday was!" Then Ibn

Abbas cried severely so that his tears flowed to his cheeks. Then he

added Prophet said: "Bring me a flat bone or a sheet and an ink so

that I could write (order to write) a statement that will prevent you

people to go astray after me." They said: "Verily the messenger of

Allah is talking no sense." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of "Kitabul-Wasiyyah" in section "Babut-

Tarkil-Wasiyyah", 1980 Edition, Arabic version (Saudi Arabia), v3,

P1259, Tradition (#1637/21).

I have two questions. They may seem stupid to you, but please understand my sincere search for knowledge, and understand that in these past weeks I am learning things that I never before known. Please have patience with me!

Here are my questions...

1. It says that the messenger of Allah (pbuh) wanted to write something, but i thought that rasulullah was illiterate... did he later learn to read and write? I only recall being taught he was illiterate, and that is why the qur'an is a miracle...

2. I am told by shi'a that the messenger of Allah (pbuh) wanted to write down that Ali would be the successor (imam) after him, but the hadith don't say that, so where is it stated that it was to be the successor?

Please recall I am being sincere, and I am not asking these questions from an argumentative perspective, simply from a place of wanting to discover the truth.

Also, I see that Umar was said to be responsible for this and that there were others involved, who were the others?

Edited by texas_muslimah

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(bismillah) (salam)

Allah has blessed You with pure intention to find the real truth.

May He also give You patience to that You will read in the books

of history. This actually happend to me a couple a years ago.

Inshallah our friend here on Shiachat will provide You with the

best books/links for finding the truth.

May Allah bless You and give You a pleasant travel in the search of

knowledge, Inshallah

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(salam),

I have two questions. They may seem stupid to you, but please understand my sincere search for knowledge, and understand that in these past weeks I am learning things that I never before known. Please have patience with me!

Here are my questions...

1. It says that the messenger of Allah (pbuh) wanted to write something, but i thought that rasulullah was illiterate... did he later learn to read and write? I only recall being taught he was illiterate, and that is why the qur'an is a miracle...

2. I am told by shi'a that the messenger of Allah (pbuh) wanted to write down that Ali would be the successor (imam) after him, but the hadith don't say that, so where is it stated that it was to be the successor?

Please recall I am being sincere, and I am not asking these questions from an argumentative perspective, simply from a place of wanting to discover the truth.

Also, I see that Umar was said to be responsible for this and that there were others involved, who were the others?

1. It is accepted in the Sunni and Shia schools that the Prophet (pbuh) was never taught by anyone in his entire life to read and write. However, just because he was never taught to read and write by anyone does not mean he could not read and write. He was the final prophet of Allah, for Heaven's sake! When the Prophet (pbuh) asks for something, you give it to him, without question. You do not stupidly refuse, and say that the Prophet (pbuh) is going mad. (Allah's refuge).

Even if the Prophet (pbuh) could not write, could the performer of so many other miracles (splitting of the moon, for example) not be able to write, as a miracle? It showed how the people had been unconvinced that the Prophet (pbuh) was a man who could do miracles, as a prophet of God, and could not believe that the unschooled prophet can start to write, with Allah's permission. The issue of whether or not the Prophet (pbuh) was literate is discussed, in the light of the Qur'an is discussed here:

http://www.al-islam.org/unschooled/5.htm

I recommend you read this entire book, written on this topic:

The Unschooled Prophet - by Shaheed Murtadha Mutahhari

2. Think logically. The time of the death of the Prophet (pbuh) was nearing. What would he want to write? What would be the most important thing to write, from the point of view of a leader, when he is dying? Keep in mind that the Prophet's (pbuh) aim of whatever he was writing was to keep people guided, after his death (the ahadith mention this fact). What words could have achieved this? I can think of only two things; either writing down the name of his successor ( Imam Ali (as) ) or the Hadith of Thaqalayn.

I seem to have heard from one of my Ahlul Sunnah teachers that it was the exact date of Laylatul Qadr that the Prophet (pbuh) wanted to write. This would be the Sunni stance, I assume. But I find this hard to believe. The Prophet (pbuh) forgets the Laylatul Qadr when he is in a normal state, and when does he remember it? When he is in a state of delirium! (Allah's refuge)

Any way... read this by AA, and see if you have any more questions.

wa (salam)

Edited by Basim Ali

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(salam),

1. It is accepted in the Sunni and Shia schools that the Prophet (pbuh) was never taught by anyone in his entire life to read and write. However, just because he was never taught to read and write by anyone does not mean he could not read and write. He was the final prophet of Allah, for Heaven's sake! When the Prophet (pbuh) asks for something, you give it to him, without question. You do not stupidly refuse, and say that the Prophet (pbuh) is going mad. (Allah's refuge).

Even if the Prophet (pbuh) could not write, could the performer of so many other miracles (splitting of the moon, for example) not be able to write, as a miracle? It showed how the people had been unconvinced that the Prophet (pbuh) was a man who could do miracles, as a prophet of God, and could not believe that the unschooled prophet can start to write, with Allah's permission. The issue of whether or not the Prophet (pbuh) was literate is discussed, in the light of the Qur'an is discussed here:

http://www.al-islam.org/unschooled/5.htm

I recommend you read this entire book, written on this topic:

The Unschooled Prophet - by Shaheed Murtadha Mutahhari

2. Think logically. The time of the death of the Prophet (pbuh) was nearing. What would he want to write? What would be the most important thing to write, from the point of view of a leader, when he is dying? Keep in mind that the Prophet's (pbuh) aim of whatever he was writing was to keep people guided, after his death (the ahadith mention this fact). What words could have achieved this? I can think of only two things; either writing down the name of his successor ( Imam Ali (as) ) or the Hadith of Thaqalayn.

I seem to have heard from one of my Ahlul Sunnah teachers that it was the exact date of Laylatul Qadr that the Prophet (pbuh) wanted to write. This would be the Sunni stance, I assume. But I find this hard to believe. The Prophet (pbuh) forgets the Laylatul Qadr when he is in a normal state, and when does he remember it? When he is in a state of delirium! (Allah's refuge)

Any way... read this by AA, and see if you have any more questions.

wa (salam)

I have a question. I don't care weither this hadith is true or not. My question refers to your point of view.

If it was so important as the hadith mentions, then why didn't the Prophet end up writing it? Are you saying that the Prophet didn't tell them what was going to protect them from going astray because there was a dispute around him? It seems odd, just like this sunni hadith, that the Prophet would not write what he intended to write, if indeed he wanted to protect his ummah. If he was unable to write it, couldn't he just say it outloud?

strange.

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interesting point of view... I guess one perspective might be that he HAD in fact said it many times but thought that if it were written, then there would be no dispute (as there clearly was a dispute between the sahabis after the death of the prophet pbuh.

Also, there are a few hadith in sahih bukhari that describe this event, and the narrators say there were three things, but they forgot one... so it looks like he DID say it out loud then, just they forgot... or something.

I think that shows right then and there the need for writing it down, as if it had been written down there would be no disagreement or questioning it, IMO. :P ^_^

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Salam Alaikum

I have a question. I don't care weither this hadith is true or not. My question refers to your point of view.

You should care whether its true or not, if you are a Muslim.

If it was so important as the hadith mentions, then why didn't the Prophet end up writing it? Are you saying that the Prophet didn't tell them what was going to protect them from going astray because there was a dispute around him? It seems odd, just like this sunni hadith, that the Prophet would not write what he intended to write, if indeed he wanted to protect his ummah. If he was unable to write it, couldn't he just say it outloud?

Firstly, what he wished to say, he had already said many times in front of thousands of people. It was nothing new. Did he not say after the Hajjatul-Wida` that we if were to hold on to two weighty things, we will never go astray? Now he wanted to write it down.

Secondly, what he wanted to write down had already been slurred. People said he was unwell and delirious. Would such a paper be useful? I would say that judging from the actions of Umar and Abu Bakr after the Prophet's death, they would have burnt it with the excuse that it was written while he was in delirium or that it may be confused with the Quran. In other words, they had already destroyed the value of whatever the Prophet wished to write down.

Allah knows best.

strange

You find this strange, and you don't find Umar's words strange?

Strange.

Also, there are a few hadith in sahih bukhari that describe this event, and the narrators say there were three things, but they forgot one... so it looks like he DID say it out loud then, just they forgot... or something.

The Prophet gave utmost emphasis in the fact that what he wanted to write down was to keep the Ummah from going astray. The few things that the narrators remember are hardly things that are to guarantee guidance and needed writing down.

Wassalam

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assalamu alaikum

Prophet as Illitrate:

the word that they derive the illiterate hypothesis is "UMMY"

Ummy can give more than one meaning depending on the context:

one meaning is the illiterate which they took

and another meaning is to refer to Ummulqura (which is mecca) so that UMMY means (The Meccen)

any logical person would reject the notion that the prophet could not read and write,,,,

Allah says " him who taught with the pen, he taught the man what he did not know"

This is a clear indication that the alphabet is the most primary and fundamental prerequisite of knowledge

imagine some one who had so much knowledge yet he lacks the most primitive pillars of the knowledge!!!!

secondly could it be possible for some one who is the hair of the previous books (torah and Engeel) that he does not know the 28 letters of the alphabet?

and lets assume he didnt know at the start.,,, what about after the battle of BADR ? didn't he order the war captives to teach 10 muslims the reading and writing and to be set free?

could he be encouraging the Muslims to learn some thing while he keeps himself ignorant of it ? wouldn't he then be in direct contradiction of the quraan when it says:

" oh you who believe why do you say what you don't do? verily its a big crime in the sight of Allah to say what you dont do"

The very strange thing is that alot of these people who insist that the prophet didn't know how to read or write actually say that "he knew the knowledge of the unseen!!!!" , for example he knew what was inside the hearts of the other people !!!!!

so if this is true I am sure there were many literate people from Quraish and if the prophet knew whats in their hearts (this is not my belief) then he would definitely know those 28 letters ...

The tragedy of thursday:

In the hadeeth of Thursday the prophet asked to allow him to "write a book that they will never be misguided after him",

Umar prevented him and said " leave the man the pain has overcome him" and in some other books " he is hallucinating"

then some others said: "give him so he could write his book" and some others (lead by Umar) rejected and said " NO" so they started arguing and shouting so the prophet got angry and kicked them out and said " there shall be no dispute in the presence of a prophet"

he means that those people who argued have not understood the concept of the infallibility of the prophets as the quraan (alahzab 36) says:

"It is not for a Mumin or Mumina when god and his messenger have decided some thing to have the choice about that matter and whoever disobeys god and his messenger has fallen into a great misguidance"

the prophet kicked them out to tell them that they have not understood the concept that when the prophet talks its not from his own desire but its a divine order from god.

having in mind the other verse (sourat alnajm) that says about the prophet " and he does not talk from desire , verily it is inspiration that is being inspired"

In that occasion the prophet was obviously trying to say and reiterate about imam Ali's leadership once again and tehy knew that and thets why they prevented him because they thought they knew better.

I read in seerat ibn hisham (which is a sunnie book and the most respected of the seerah historians for the sunnies)

I read in his book Umar saying : "I prevented the prophet from writing that book because I knew he will mention Ali"

Yes i was shocked too and my sunnie friend was shocked,,, we were both reading that books for hours and hours...

Unfortunately i didn't keep that book or a copy of it at that time because it was the possession of my friend... that friend who was from sunnie family but undecided at that time later became a salafi and didn't keep much contact with me.

later I went and bought that same book and i have it in my shelf now but so far I didnt find that hadeeth again.

i hope i find it and give this as a present to you lol

salaam

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I have a question. I don't care weither this hadith is true or not. My question refers to your point of view.

If it was so important as the hadith mentions, then why didn't the Prophet end up writing it? Are you saying that the Prophet didn't tell them what was going to protect them from going astray because there was a dispute around him? It seems odd, just like this sunni hadith, that the Prophet would not write what he intended to write, if indeed he wanted to protect his ummah. If he was unable to write it, couldn't he just say it outloud?

strange.

First invited for guidance and later kept silent Prophet(S.A.W) proved that who rejected his demand were disbelievers

[7:193] And if you invite them to guidance, they will not follow you; it is the same to you whether you invite them or you are silent.

[2:6] Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike to them whether you warn them, or do not warn them, will not believe.

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I have two questions. They may seem stupid to you, but please understand my sincere search for knowledge, and understand that in these past weeks I am learning things that I never before known. Please have patience with me!

Here are my questions...

1. It says that the messenger of Allah (pbuh) wanted to write something, but i thought that rasulullah was illiterate... did he later learn to read and write? I only recall being taught he was illiterate, and that is why the qur'an is a miracle...

2. I am told by shi'a that the messenger of Allah (pbuh) wanted to write down that Ali would be the successor (imam) after him, but the hadith don't say that, so where is it stated that it was to be the successor?

Please recall I am being sincere, and I am not asking these questions from an argumentative perspective, simply from a place of wanting to discover the truth.

Also, I see that Umar was said to be responsible for this and that there were others involved, who were the others?

Salaam,

Sister, welcome, I reverted also along time back, you will find all your answers in this path, but not necessarily in this forum -know the difference. You are free to contact me personally being a previous adherent of the jama'ah, I should be able to answer your concerns -insha'Allah, if I am not -Allah willing -I can point you as to where you could go to seek your answers.

As to your first question:

1) Even if the holy Prophet (pbuh) was illiterate (Which I don't believe) he (pbuh) would often say that, so he would be brought his ink-pot, paper and scribe, then he would dictate to the scribe, then he would put the seal/ stamp, Muhammad Rasul Allah. Simmilar to the business world where there is a perfect example, a director tells his PA to write a letter; which is written under his name and then he just merely signs the piece of paper.

2) He wasn't illterate, problem solved, because he (pbuh) once scratched out his seal-name to write: "Muhammad ibn Abdullah"

which he (pbuh) did -during the signing of the peace treaty.

One could say, but to basically know how to write one's name does not mean one is literate. I would argue this by saying that the holy Prophet's (pbuh) father (as) passed away before his birth, yet he learned to write his father's name, this points to a cursory understanding of literacy at the very least.

More research on this issue:

On this issue please read: The Unschooled Prophet - Alamah Murtadha Mutahhari (Rah)

Link: http://www.al-islam.org/unschooled/

--

There is one narration which points to this,

read this page: http://www.al-islam.org/imamate/3.htm

Also for more info from other texts, read these pages

From Muraaja'at, a good book to read:

http://www.al-islam.org/murajaat/85.htm'>http://www.al-islam.org/murajaat/85.htm <- Sunni scholar requests narrations for Shi'a Scholar

http://www.al-islam.org/murajaat/86.htm'>http://www.al-islam.org/murajaat/86.htm <- Shi'a scholar replies.

http://www.al-islam.org/murajaat/87.htm'>http://www.al-islam.org/murajaat/87.htm <- Sunni scholar argues the points.

http://www.al-islam.org/murajaat/88.htm'>http://www.al-islam.org/murajaat/88.htm <- Shi'a scholar refutes them.

http://www.al-islam.org/murajaat/

And finally, attached hereto is a book you'l thoroughly enjoy,

Was-Salaam

Peshawar Nights (Print).pdf

Edited by JawzofDETH

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