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In the Name of God بسم الله

Do Shias Follow Hadees Of S.a.w

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(bismillah)

As a Shi'ah, you do not follow the Sunni books of ahadeeth. You follow the Shi'ah ones like al-Kafi by Thiqqat-ul Islam al-Kulayni (rah). Part of the compilation is translated online here: al-kafi.org

(salam)

What is this "sunni" and "shia" hadeeth? Do shias honestly reject all other hadith books simply because they were compiled by non-Imamis?

This is sectarian ta'assub at its finest

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What is this "sunni" and "shia" hadeeth? Do shias honestly reject all other hadith books simply because they were compiled by non-Imamis?

This is sectarian ta'assub at its finest

Actually we don't reject all Sunni ahadeeth, but we don't regard them as sahih as only a khabar whose isnad is composed of thiqah Imamiyyah is considered sahih to us.

Let me ask you a question - how many Sunnis accept Shi'i ahadeeth and use them when forming their fiqh and usoolu 'd deen? If it is none, then ... This is sectarian ta'assub at its finest

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As a Shi'ah, you do not follow the Sunni books of ahadeeth. You follow the Shi'ah ones like al-Kafi by Thiqqat-ul Islam al-Kulayni (rah). Part of the compilation is translated online here: al-kafi.org

The thread seems to be about the "Hadees of S.a.w". If that is the case, you will not get much from Al-Kafi, since only around 1%, if not less, is correctly attributed to the Prophet (pbuh)... according to Shias.

Actually we don't reject all Sunni ahadeeth, but we don't regard them as sahih as only a khabar whose isnad is composed of thiqah Imamiyyah is considered sahih to us.

You will not find a single Sunni hadith that consists of only Imamis.

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You will not find a single Sunni hadith that consists of only Imamis.

There's a difference between rejecting a hadeeth completely on one hand and regarding it as sahih on the other. Some Sunni ahadeeth have been accepted if there are corroborating sahih Imami akhbaar. However, there's no such thing as a sahih hadeeth in the Sunni works of hadeeth for the reason you mentioned.

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The thread seems to be about the "Hadees of S.a.w". If that is the case, you will not get much from Al-Kafi, since only around 1%, if not less, is correctly attributed to the Prophet (pbuh)... according to Shias.

The first of us is Muhammad, the last of us is Muhammad, in between are Muhammad and all of us are Muhammad.

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The thread seems to be about the "Hadees of S.a.w". If that is the case, you will not get much from Al-Kafi, since only around 1%, if not less, is correctly attributed to the Prophet (pbuh)... according to Shias.

I gather by that you are excluding those ahadeeth where an Imam (as) says, "The Prophet (pbuh) said ..." without mentioning the intermediary chain ...

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Al-kafi is not the only source.

Botta can you please clarify it further whatever you claimed about 1%.

Imam (as) hadith is not the hadith of rasool-Allah (pbuh) !

Ever imam (as) got knowledge from his father. Then why you claim hadith of imam (as) is not of rasool-Allah?

Please clarify it more further.

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Actually we don't reject all Sunni ahadeeth, but we don't regard them as sahih as only a khabar whose isnad is composed of thiqah Imamiyyah is considered sahih to us.

An Authentic hadeeth whose sanad contains all Imamis is impossible, as the companions werent Imamis...Unless shias magically bypassed the 1st generation of Muslims and recieved Hadith directly from the Prophet to Hasan Askari or any other Rafidees.

Let me ask you a question - how many Sunnis accept Shi'i ahadeeth and use them when forming their fiqh and usoolu 'd deen? If it is none, then ... This is sectarian ta'assub at its finest

I've yet to see a saheeh hadith attributed to the Prophet from shia books that isnt found in mainstream Islamic hadith compilations...How can we take a hadith whose sanad is solely composed of Imami rawafid when we arent able to decider the taqqiya,

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An Authentic hadeeth whose sanad contains all Imamis is impossible, as the companions werent Imamis...Unless shias magically bypassed the 1st generation of Muslims and recieved Hadith directly from the Prophet to Hasan Askari or any other Rafidees.

Really? That's strange, because most Shi'i ahadeeth take the form Fulan -> Fulan -> Imam -> his forefathers -> Imam 'Ali -> the Prophet. The only sahaba in that chain are our first 3 Imams. The small minority of akhbaar that reach Imam 'Ali (as) or the Prophet (pbuh) without going through the other Imams are narrated by those sahaba that the Shi'ah regard as having been loyal to Imam 'Ali (as) and preferred him above the first three.

I 've yet to see a saheeh hadith attributed to the Prophet from shia books that isnt found in mainstream Islamic hadith compilations...How can we take a hadith whose sanad is solely composed of Imami rawafid when we arent able to decider the taqqiya,

You have missed a few sahih Shi'i riwayaat, then, because that's not the case...

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Let me explain what Lord Botta wants to say. Sunnis remain with Sahaba (whether good or bad). They took hadiths from Sahaba so much so they relied on worst Sahaba (so called) like Muawvia (l.a) therefore, you will not find Sunni hadiths containing Imamain (as). The reason is simple in Karbala Sunnis were with Yazeed then how after Karbala they can take hadiths from Imam Zain ul Abideen (as) and other 8 Imams (as)? Shias remained loyal to Ahl ul bait (as) and they relied on this infallible chain for their religion. Sunni test of Sahaba is very unrealistic. Therefore many forged, fabricated and politically motivated ahadith are found in Sunni hadith collection. Therefore we do not straight way accept all the hadiths of Sunni sources. However, we accept the authentic hadiths. The same rule applies for Shia hadiths collection but there is less chance of error.

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Al-kafi is not the only source.

Botta can you please clarify it further whatever you claimed about 1%.

Imam (as) hadith is not the hadith of rasool-Allah (pbuh) !

Ever imam (as) got knowledge from his father. Then why you claim hadith of imam (as) is not of rasool-Allah?

Please clarify it more further.

@serious-sam:

From my research, I've noticed that the Imams would differentiate between their hadiths and the hadiths of the Prophet (pbuh). They do not state that everything they narrate is the hadith of the Prophet (pbuh). However, every once in a while, they would attribute a hadith to him, sometimes with a chain, and sometimes without. The fact that they attributed hadiths to him implies that those in which they didn't aren't prophetic hadiths. Another reason the hadiths of the Imams are not the hadiths of the Prophet (pbuh) is because taqiyya existed among the Imams, because of this, we cannot attribute what they have said to the Prophet (pbuh).

Really? That's strange, because most Shi'i ahadeeth take the form Fulan -> Fulan -> Imam -> his forefathers -> Imam 'Ali -> the Prophet. The only sahaba in that chain are our first 3 Imams.

@ AbdulQaim:

This is either a really huge exaggeration or you really haven't paid attention to Shia hadith compilations. Such a version of a chain can rarely be found in a Shia hadith book. Most Shia hadiths do not contain any mention of the Prophet (pbuh) or Ali. What can be found though, is a late Imam attributing a hadith to the Prophet (pbuh), yet even that is pretty rare.

I'm not necessarily all that interested in getting into a debate on whether or not the Imams are infallible or about their magical transfer of knowledge to each other, however, I believe that it is clear to anyone with a clear heart and mind that Sunnis did a better job at preserving the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) than Shias... by far.

They took hadiths from Sahaba so much so they relied on worst Sahaba (so called) like Muawvia (l.a) therefore, you will not find Sunni hadiths containing Imamain (as).

@ Aabiss:

Actually the hadiths of Al-Hussain bin Ali can be found in the six books. Al-Hasan's hadiths can be found in four.

Edited by Lord Botta
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salam, i am a shia, do we follow the hadess of S.A.W like Sahih Bukhari and Muslim please let me so i can star reading it.

Jaza kala khair

Salams

Shia scholars share Islamic history by quoting sunni references (as well). I think that we shias are very flexible in terms of researching and studying books of sunni school of thought. You will notice that there are narrations available in both sunni and shia text. I'd personally encourage you to study all books of ahadith and when in doubt, consult the scholars and your aql regarding their authenticity. We shouldn't just refuse to learn cz a book is related to an 'opponent'.

Fi-Amanillah

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(salam)

Shias don't follow the Sunni hadith books (Bukhari, Muslim etc) because the Sunnis scholarships don’t give much importance to the ahlul bayt. BTW, in the last sermon, the Holy Prophet (sa) did say he is leaving behind two weighty things - the Quran and the ahlul bayt.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

The thread seems to be about the "Hadees of S.a.w". If that is the case, you will not get much from Al-Kafi, since only around 1%, if not less, is correctly attributed to the Prophet (pbuh)... according to Shias.

Considering that the Imams (as) got most of their hadiths from their fathers and forefathers from the Prophet (pbuh), we can say that there is a higher number of him (pbuh) being indirectly quoted ;)

And we even have hadiths from our Imams(as), such as from al-Baqir(as) and al-Sadiq(as) saying if they don't mention a chain, it is because their hadiths is from their father, from his father, from his father, etc from the Prophet (pbuh)

Botta, i saw your note that says this:

Alsalam alaykum wa rahmat Allah,

As most of you are aware, Al-Kulaini's "Al-Kafi" is accepted by Shia scholars as their most authentic book of hadith. Amazed by the length of the book and the high number of narrations, I went over to the local Shia hadith bookshop and purchased myself a copy. After going through a few pages, I noticed the lack of hadiths narrated by the Prophet (pbuh). So, I decided to count them and made a couple of discoveries.

In Kitabul Ilm (Book of Knowledge), I counted a hundred and seventy seven hadiths (177). Of those, only twenty four (24) were attributed to the Prophet (pbuh).

Then, I went over to Mir'aatul Uqool by their master muhaddith Al-Majlisi, and looked up his commentary on those hadiths. Pretty much all of them were either weak, mursal, or marfu'u (the word in Shia hadith terminology is equal to munqati'i in ours).

However, there were two that he considered to be saheeh and one that he considered hasan.

The hasan hadith was one of Ali bin Ibrahim Al-Qumi's narrations, and he believed in tahreef al-Qur'an. Perhaps the hadith was considered to be hasan instead of saheeh for this reason... because there was a kafir in the chain, that is.

I haven't checked out the chains of the other two narrations according to our books of rijal because we all know how that is going to turn out.

So, yes, out of 177 narrations, 24 are narrated by the Prophet (pbuh), 2 are saheeh, and one is hasan.

A little while later, I looked up Saheeh Al-Bukhari. About twenty seconds into it, I figured that it was a grossly unfair comparison. Heck, the only book that comes to mind that would come even close would be Mawdoo'aat Ibnul Jawzi.

I'll probably post more later.

It would be interesting for you to see how many of the hadiths attributed to the Prophet (pbuh) contradict the hadiths attributed to the Imams(as) in Shia books, if any ;)

And then look to see how many hadiths where the Imams(as) contradict each other, if any ;)

Unless you wanna say, "Well, a group of people who sit around all day fabricating hadiths are going to make sure that what they're writing doesn't contradict each other"

was salam

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And we even have hadiths from our Imams(as), such as from al-Baqir(as) and al-Sadiq(as) saying if they don't mention a chain, it is because their hadiths is from their father, from his father, from his father, etc from the Prophet (pbuh)

I remember someone bringing this up a while ago, but I think it was Jondab that weakened those narrations. Can you prove that this is the case?

It would be interesting for you to see how many of the hadiths attributed to the Prophet (pbuh) contradict the hadiths attributed to the Imams(as) in Shia books, if any ;)

And then look to see how many hadiths where the Imams(as) contradict each other, if any ;)

Unless you wanna say, "Well, a group of people who sit around all day fabricating hadiths are going to make sure that what they're writing doesn't contradict each other"

Isn't there some sort of ground rule that says that if there are contradicting narrations within Shia sources, then the Shias should chose the narrations that contradict Sunni narrations because the Imam said it under taqiyyah?

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Let me explain what Lord Botta wants to say. Sunnis remain with Sahaba (whether good or bad). They took hadiths from Sahaba so much so they relied on worst Sahaba (so called) like Muawvia (l.a) therefore, you will not find Sunni hadiths containing Imamain (as). The reason is simple in Karbala Sunnis were with Yazeed then how after Karbala they can take hadiths from Imam Zain ul Abideen (as) and other 8 Imams (as)? Shias remained loyal to Ahl ul bait (as) and they relied on this infallible chain for their religion. Sunni test of Sahaba is very unrealistic. Therefore many forged, fabricated and politically motivated ahadith are found in Sunni hadith collection. Therefore we do not straight way accept all the hadiths of Sunni sources. However, we accept the authentic hadiths. The same rule applies for Shia hadiths collection but there is less chance of error.

(bismillah)

(salam)

wallahi all other posts are good including bro lotfilms

but this goes for the jugular without wasting any time

bro botta is too far removed from understanding in that he is so badly caught up in munqati/=marfoo bull etc

he cannot see the wood from the trees

wallah

(wasalam)

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An Authentic hadeeth whose sanad contains all Imamis is impossible, as the companions werent Imamis...Unless shias magically bypassed the 1st generation of Muslims and recieved Hadith directly from the Prophet to Hasan Askari or any other Rafidees.

I've yet to see a saheeh hadith attributed to the Prophet from shia books that isnt found in mainstream Islamic hadith compilations...How can we take a hadith whose sanad is solely composed of Imami rawafid when we arent able to decider the taqqiya,

are you calling the Imams as rafidi.....?

If you are then you are nothing but a Nasibi &*^&%

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are you calling the Imams as rafidi.....?

If you are then you are nothing but a Nasibi &*^&%

Ofcourse I dont believe the Imams shared your beliefs and were rawafids!

However, your hadith books have narrations from your imams that If we were to believe them [Edited]. Far removed are the pure Ahle Bait from such beliefs!

Edited by inshaAllah
Mind your language. This is your first and final warning. Next comes permanent ban.
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(salam)

What is this "sunni" and "shia" hadeeth? Do shias honestly reject all other hadith books simply because they were compiled by non-Imamis?

This is sectarian ta'assub at its finest

No, not exactly. The main difference between Sunni and Shi'i ahadith is methodology. Our Sunni brothers usually consider any Muslim witness of the Prophet (pbuh) to be a trusted source for ahadith. All of his as'hab who remained Muslim, therefore, are a reliable source for hadith on Muhammed (pbuh). The Shi'ah however don't have this uniform opinion on the companions of both the Prophet and Imams, and judge each character on a case-by-case basis. Books like Sahiih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim go by the Sunni methodology - we don't just reject these books in their entirety "because they're Sunni", but more so because of the differences in how to identify a reliable narrator.

The thread seems to be about the "Hadees of S.a.w". If that is the case, you will not get much from Al-Kafi, since only around 1%, if not less, is correctly attributed to the Prophet (pbuh)... according to Shias.

Actually, many ahadith of the A'immah (as) will start with the words "the Messenger (pbuh) said:". For example:

- Ñæì ÇáÚáÇÁ Èä ÑÒíä¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ãÓáã Úä ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ÞÇá: ((ÞÇá ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÇáå æÓáã: ÃæÕÇäí ÌÈÑÆíá Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ÈÇáãÑÃÉ ÍÊì ÙääÊ Ãäå áÇ íäÈÛí ØáÇÞåÇ ÅáÇ ãä ÝÇÍÔÉ ãÈíäÉ).

4525 – al-`Ala b. Razin narrated from Muhammad b. Muslim from Abu Ja`far Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. He said: The Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÇáå said: Jibra’il Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã advised me about the wife so much that I suspected that it was not appropriate to divorce her except from an evident lewdness.

http://www.*******.org/hadiths/marriage/right-of-the-wife-upon-the-husband

So yes, although not many ahadith actually have a sanad that goes back to the Prophet (pbuh), but the Imams (as) very often would quote him, and those ahadith definitely account for much more than just 1% of al-Kafi. Same goes for quoting Allah in the Qur'an.

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I remember someone bringing this up a while ago, but I think it was Jondab that weakened those narrations. Can you prove that this is the case?

That particular narration from al-Kafi is weak but we believe whatever Imams taught about shariah was from Prophet (saw) as it's proven from many Imami narrations that the source of Imam's knowledge was Kitab Ali which was dictated by Prophet (saw) to Imam Ali (as) and then transferred from one Imam to another.

ãÍãÏ Èä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓíä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÇÈä ÃÈí ÚãíÑ ¡ Úä ÇÈä ÇõÐíäÉ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ãÓáã ÞÇá : ÃÞÑÃäí ÃÈæÌÚÝÑ ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ¡ ÕÍíÝÉ ÇáÝÑÇÆÖ ¡ ÇáÊí åí ÅãáÇÁ ÑÓæá Çááå ( Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå ) ¡ æÎØ Úáí ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) ÈíÏå ¡ ÝÞÑÃÊ ÝíåÇ : ÇãÑÃÉ ãÇÊÊ ¡ æÊÑßÊ ÒæÌåÇ æÃÈæíåÇ ¡ ÝááÒæÌ ÇáäÕÝ ËáÇËÉ ÃÓåã ¡ æááÇã ÇáËáË (1) ÓåãÇä ¡ æááÇÈ ÇáÓÏÓ Óåã

w/s

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An Authentic hadeeth whose sanad contains all Imamis is impossible, as the companions werent Imamis...Unless shias magically bypassed the 1st generation of Muslims and recieved Hadith directly from the Prophet to Hasan Askari or any other Rafidees.

(bismillah)

Salman al-Farsi (ra), Miqdad (ra), `Ammar (ra), Abu Dharr (ra), Jabir ibn Abduallah al-Ansari (ra).... They weren't Imami to you, but they did in fact follow Imam `Ali (as) and up hold his wilayah.

Also Chain to an Infallible (as) is the same as a chain to Rasulullah (pbuh).

(salam)

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@ AbdulQaim:

This is either a really huge exaggeration or you really haven't paid attention to Shia hadith compilations. Such a version of a chain can rarely be found in a Shia hadith book. Most Shia hadiths do not contain any mention of the Prophet (pbuh) or Ali. What can be found though, is a late Imam attributing a hadith to the Prophet (pbuh), yet even that is pretty rare.

I'm not necessarily all that interested in getting into a debate on whether or not the Imams are infallible or about their magical transfer of knowledge to each other, however, I believe that it is clear to anyone with a clear heart and mind that Sunnis did a better job at preserving the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) than Shias... by far.

Botta, old chap, I had a feeling you would object to my statement, knowing your penchant for pedantry. The fact is that, whether it is explicitly stated by an Imam or not, for us it is always implied that his knowledge and his words are the same as the Prophet's. They are the inheritor's of the Prophet's knowledge, and whether that 'ilm was passed "magically" from one Imam to the next, or transmitted orally, or via the Kitaab of 'Ali or Mushaf of Fatimah is irrelevant. We know you don't believe it, but I guess that's why we believe our Imam is occulted whilst your imam is the King of Bahrayn.

The point is that, as I mentioned already, we believe the knowledge possessed by the Imam is the same as that possessed by the Prophet and therefore in most akhbaar the sanad ends at an Imam which nullifies the brother's assertion that it's not possible to have a Shi'i prophetic hadeeth in which every rawi is an Imami.

What I find frustrating at times is that, whilst your forensic interest in 'ilmu 'l hadeeth/rijaal is commendable, after a year of visiting this board you still appear to be clueless as to the basic 'aqaaid of Ithna 'Ashari Tashayyu'.

Edited by Abdul Qaim
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(wasalam)

^ Isn't the isnad of that weak though?

Akhi, here's some more narrations on Kitab 'Ali.

ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚíÓì¡ Úä ãÍãÏ Èä ÅÓãÇÚíá Èä ÈÒíÚ¡ Úä ãäÕæÑ Èä ÍÇÒã¡ Úä ØáÍÉ Èä ÒíÏ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏ Çááå Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ÞÇá: ÞÑÃÊ Ýí ßÊÇÈ Úáí Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã Åä Çááå áã íÃÎÐ Úáì ÇáÌåÇá ÚåÏÇ ÈØáÈ ÇáÚáã ÍÊì ÃÎÐ Úáì ÇáÚáãÇÁ ÚåÏÇ ÈÈÐá ÇáÚáã ááÌåÇá¡ áÃä ÇáÚáã ßÇä ÞÈá ÇáÌåá.

ãÍãÏ Èä íÍíì¡ Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÚíÓì¡ Úä ÇÈä ãÍÈæÈ¡ Úä åÔÇã Èä ÓÇáã¡ Úä ÇÈí ÎÇáÏ ÇáßÇÈáí¡ Úä ÇÈí ÌÚÝÑ Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ÞÇá: æÌÏäÇ Ýí ßÊÇÈ Úáí Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã " Ãä ÇáÇÑÖ ááå íæÑËåÇ ãä íÔÇÁ ãä ÚÈÇÏå æÇáÚÇÞÈÉ ááãÊÞíä " ÃäÇ æÃåá ÈíÊí ÇáÐíä ÃæÑËäÇ Çááå ÇáÇÑÖ æäÍä ÇáãÊÞæä æÇáÇÑÖ ßáåÇ áäÇ¡ Ýãä ÃÍíÇ ÃÑÖÇ ãä ÇáãÓáãíä ÝáíÚãÑåÇ æáíÄÏ ÎÑÇÌåÇ Åáì ÇáÇãÇã ãä Ãåá ÈíÊí æáå ãÇ Ãßá ãäåÇ ÝÅä ÊÑßåÇ Ãæ ÃÎÑÈåÇ æÃÎÐåÇ ÑÌá ãä ÇáãÓáãíä ãä ÈÚÏå ÝÚãÑåÇ æÃÍíÇåÇ Ýåæ ÃÍÞ ÈåÇ ãä ÇáÐí ÊÑßåÇ¡ íÄÏí ÎÑÇÌåÇ Åáì ÇáÇãÇã ãä Ãåá ÈíÊí æáå ãÇ Ãßá ãäåÇ ÍÊì íÙåÑ ÇáÞÇÆã ãä Ãåá ÈíÊí ÈÇáÓíÝ¡ ÝíÍæíåÇ æíãäÚåÇ æíÎÑÌåã ãäåÇ¡ ßãÇ ÍæÇåÇ ÑÓæá Çááå Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå æãäÚåÇ ÅáÇ ãÇ ßÇä Ýí ÃíÏí ÔíÚÊäÇ ÝÅäå íÞÇØÚåã Úáì ãÇ Ýí ÃíÏíåã æ íÊÑß ÇáÇÑÖ Ýí ÃíÏíåã.

ÇÈä ãÍÈæÈ¡ Úä Ìãíá Èä ÕÇáÍ¡ Úä ÈÑíÏ Èä ãÚÇæíÉ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÞÇá: æÌÏäÇ Ýí ßÊÇÈ Úáí (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) Ãä ÑÓæá Çááå (Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÂáå) ÞÇá - æåæ Úáì ãäÈÑå – æÇáÐí áÇ Åáå ÅáÇ åæ ãÇ ÇÚØí ãÄãä ÞØ ÎíÑ ÇáÏäíÇ æÇáÂÎÑÉ ÅáÇ ÈÍÓä Ùäå ÈÇááå æÑÌÇÆå áå æÍÓä ÎáÞå æÇáßÝ Úä ÇÛÊíÇÈ ÇáãÄãäíä æÇáÐí áÇ Åáå ÅáÇ åæ áÇ íÚÐÈ Çááå ãÄãäÇ ÈÚÏ ÇáÊæÈÉ æÇáÇÓÊÛÝÇÑ ÅáÇ ÈÓæÁ Ùäå ÈÇááå æÊÞÕíÑå ãä ÑÌÇÆå æÓæÁ ÎáÞå æÇÛÊíÇÈå ááãÄãäíä æÇáÐí áÇ Åáå ÅáÇ åæ áÇ íÍÓä Ùä ÚÈÏ ãÄãä ÈÇááå ÅáÇ ßÇä Çááå ÚäÏ Ùä ÚÈÏå ÇáãÄãä¡ áÇä Çááå ßÑíã¡ ÈíÏå ÇáÎíÑÇÊ íÓÊÍíí Ãä íßæä ÚÈÏå ÇáãÄãä ÞÏ ÃÍÓä Èå ÇáÙä Ëã íÎáÝ Ùäå æÑÌÇÁå¡ ÝÃÍÓäæÇ ÈÇááå ÇáÙä æÇÑÛÈæÇ Åáíå.

Úáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã¡ Úä ÃÈíå¡ Úä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÇáãÛíÑÉ¡ Úä ÛíÇË Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏ Çááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÞÇá: Åä Ýí ßÊÇÈ Úáí (ÕáæÇÊ Çááå Úáíå): ÅäãÇ ãËá ÇáÏäíÇ ßãËá ÇáÍíÉ ãÇ Ãáíä ãÓåÇ æÝí ÌæÝåÇ ÇáÓã ÇáäÇÞÚ¡ íÍÐÑåÇ ÇáÑÌá ÇáÚÇÞá¡ æ íåæì ÅáíåÇ ÇáÕÈí ÇáÌÇåá.

Úáí Èä ÅÈÑÇåíã¡ Úä ÃÈíå¡ Úä ÇÈä ãÍÈæÈ¡ Úä ÓãÇÚÉ¡ Úä ÃÈí ÚÈÏ Çááå (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) ÞÇá: Åä Ýí ßÊÇÈ Úáí (Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã) Ãä ÃÔÏ ÇáäÇÓ ÈáÇÁ ÇáäÈíæä¡ Ëã ÇáæÕíæä¡ Ëã ÇáÇãËá ÝÇáÇãËá¡ æÅäãÇ íÈÊáí ÇáãÄãä Úáì ÞÏÑ ÃÚãÇáå ÇáÍÓäÉ¡ Ýãä ÕÍ Ïíäå æÍÓä Úãáå ÇÔÊÏ ÈáÇÄå¡ æÐáß Ãä Çááå ÚÒ æÌá áã íÌÚá ÇáÏäíÇ ËæÇÈÇ áãÄãä æáÇ ÚÞæÈÉ áßÇÝÑ¡ æãä ÓÎÝ Ïíäå æÖÚÝ Úãáå Þá ÈáÇÄå¡ æÅä ÇáÈáÇÁ ÃÓÑÚ Åáì ÇáãÄãä ÇáÊÞí ãä ÇáãØÑ Åáì ÞÑÇÑ ÇáÇÑÖ

I have about 23 pages of narrations from Kitab Ali (all in Arabic) if you are interested. It is also very briefly mentioned in some Sunni sources (I think in one of Abu Hanifa's books).

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The point is that, as I mentioned already, we believe the knowledge possessed by the Imam is the same as that possessed by the Prophet and therefore in most akhbaar the sanad ends at an Imam which nullifies the brother's assertion that it's not possible to have a Shi'i prophetic hadeeth in which every rawi is an Imami.

What I find frustrating at times is that, whilst your forensic interest in 'ilmu 'l hadeeth/rijaal is commendable, after a year of visiting this board you still appear to be clueless as to the basic 'aqaaid of Ithna 'Ashari Tashayyu'.

Do you really believe that about me? I'm pretty familiar with your aqa'id. I'm just displaying the other side of the coin for those that are unaware.

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Do you really believe that about me? I'm pretty familiar with your aqa'id. I'm just displaying the other side of the coin for those that are unaware.

Actually, sometimes I think not, and at other times I'm not sure, akhee. I realise that your purpose here is to defend your faith and to reinforce the faith other Sunnah that come here who may be swayed by our arguments. To that end, you have learned quite a deal more about Tashayyu' than most of the 'amma that frequent this board. Generally you are quite respectful, and your akhlaaq is certainly superior to most here.

That said, sometimes your comments either show a lack of understanding of our 'aqaaid, or a propensity to be argumentative simply for the sake of "displaying the other side of the coin". Some of your comments in this thread are examples of this. You know we believe that the Aimmah (as) possess the knowledge of the Prophet (pbuh). Whether that knowledge was inherited via "miraculous" or "magical" means, as you have repeatedly (and sometimes, sarcastically) mentioned, or whether it was inherited by more convential means is not important to us, though it may be to non-Shi'ah.

You should know that we have numerous riwayaat that relate that the Imaams' knowledge was transmitted from one to the next both orally and by textual means. With regards to the latter, I'm referring to the Kitaab of 'Ali (as), the Mushaf of Fatimah (as), the "Red Jafr". All these texts we believe were narrated by the Prophet (pbuh) to his Ahlu 'l Bayt (as) , and the reports mention that these texts were voluminous and covered every subject that a believer would ever need. There is no need to believe in divinely inspired 'ilm to believe that our Aimmah (as) possessed the knowledge of the Prophet (pbuh).

Rather than using Sunni methadology to defend the 'aqaaid of your brothers in faith when it suits you, you should point out to them why we believe something, and then juxtapose it with what and why the Ahlu 's Sunnah believe.

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