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In the Name of God بسم الله

Allah's Justice

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Why does Allah need to be Just?

Under the arguments for Justice, I've been taught that Allah must be Just for the following reason in my pre-Hawza class:

"Now, suppose that He treats a creature oppressively or commits what is bad, then it must be because of one of four reasons.

  1. He is ignorant of the action and does not know that it is evil.

  2. He knows that it is bad, but He has been compelled to do it, and is unable to desist from it.

  3. He knows that it is bad, He has not been compelled to do it, however it is necessary for Him to do it.

  4. He knows that it is bad, He has not been compelled to do it, He does not need it, however He does it at His pleasure, out of desire, without a cause.

Each of these are impossible to apply to
Allah
, as each one entails a deficiency in Him, but He is Absolute Perfection. Therefore we must say that He is glorified from oppression and from doing what is evil or bad."

Now, why is it that Allah cannot have a deficiency in Him? And also, how are these deficiencies? If possible, can someone go by each "reason" explaining why it cannot happen?

Thanks for your help

Wassalam

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Why does Allah need to be Just?

Under the arguments for Justice, I've been taught that Allah must be Just for the following reason in my pre-Hawza class:

"Now, suppose that He treats a creature oppressively or commits what is bad, then it must be because of one of four reasons.

  1. He is ignorant of the action and does not know that it is evil.

  2. He knows that it is bad, but He has been compelled to do it, and is unable to desist from it.

  3. He knows that it is bad, He has not been compelled to do it, however it is necessary for Him to do it.

  4. He knows that it is bad, He has not been compelled to do it, He does not need it, however He does it at His pleasure, out of desire, without a cause.

Each of these are impossible to apply to
Allah
, as each one entails a deficiency in Him, but He is Absolute Perfection. Therefore we must say that He is glorified from oppression and from doing what is evil or bad."

Now, why is it that Allah cannot have a deficiency in Him? And also, how are these deficiencies? If possible, can someone go by each "reason" explaining why it cannot happen?

Thanks for your help

Wassalam

How can one be so sure there arent more than 4 reasons one can give for why God would do something unjust? perhaps, the 5th reason would be the solution that would not limit God!

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How can one be so sure there arent more than 4 reasons one can give for why God would do something unjust? perhaps, the 5th reason would be the solution that would not limit God!

(salam)

bro these are the only possible reasons for why Allah would do something bad

can you give any other possible reason? I mean, instead of just saying that "perhaps" there's a 5th reason?

how would you prove the justice of Allah?

Thanks for your reply

Wassalam

Edited by 14infallibles
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(bismillah)

(salam)

The Justice of God

ISBN 9976-956-64-9

bkhome.gif

The Justice of God

Title

Preface

Introduction

A - Differences in Religion

B - The Place of Reason in Religion

Chapter 1

The Actions of God

A - God Can do No Wrong

B - God Does Nothing Without Purpose

C - Can We Know All the Reasons for God’s Actions

D - Aslah – The Most Beneficial

E - God’s Promise and Threat

Chapter 2

Compulsion or Freedom

A - The Differences

B - The Sunnis’ Belief

C - The Shi’ite Belief

D - Man’s Will in Regard to Belief and Dis-Belief

E - Lutf – The Grace of God

Chapter 3

Test and Suffering

A - Test and Trial in Man’s Life

B - Categories of Test and Suffering

C - What is the Alternative

D - Sufferings as Warning or Punishment

Chapter 4

The Knowledge of God

A - The Knowledge of al-Ghayb

B - The Theory of bada’

Chapter 5

Fate and Divine Decree

A - Prerogatives of Allah

B - The Predetermined Measure

C - So where is Equality and Justice

D - Tadbir and Taqdir

E - Our Prayers and God’s Decree

F - Tawakkul and God’s Decree

Chapter 6

Bibliography

Link: http://www.al-islam.org/adl_ilahi/

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(bismillah)

(salam)

The Justice of God

ISBN 9976-956-64-9

bkhome.gif

The Justice of God

Title

Preface

Introduction

A - Differences in Religion

B - The Place of Reason in Religion

Chapter 1

The Actions of God

A - God Can do No Wrong

B - God Does Nothing Without Purpose

C - Can We Know All the Reasons for God’s Actions

D - Aslah – The Most Beneficial

E - God’s Promise and Threat

Chapter 2

Compulsion or Freedom

A - The Differences

B - The Sunnis’ Belief

C - The Shi’ite Belief

D - Man’s Will in Regard to Belief and Dis-Belief

E - Lutf – The Grace of God

Chapter 3

Test and Suffering

A - Test and Trial in Man’s Life

B - Categories of Test and Suffering

C - What is the Alternative

D - Sufferings as Warning or Punishment

Chapter 4

The Knowledge of God

A - The Knowledge of al-Ghayb

B - The Theory of bada’

Chapter 5

Fate and Divine Decree

A - Prerogatives of Allah

B - The Predetermined Measure

C - So where is Equality and Justice

D - Tadbir and Taqdir

E - Our Prayers and God’s Decree

F - Tawakkul and God’s Decree

Chapter 6

Bibliography

Link: http://www.al-islam.org/adl_ilahi/

(salam)

thank you for the link :)

as you can see, i've already posted the argument that this book uses in one of my earlier posts:

A. GOD CAN DO NO WRONG

The Shi'ahs say that hod does nothing which is rationally wrong or evil. [1] I do not use this phrase in the sense that "King makes no mistake." Because "King makes no mistake" actually means that he does nothing at all; he just signs whatever is passed by the parliament. So this tribute is based upon inaction. But "God does no wrong" means that in spite of being active and Omnipotent, God can still not do anything wrong or evil. Why?

Anyone who commits wrong or injustice does so because of one or more of the following reasons:

- either he does not know that it is wrong;

- or he needs something which cannot be obtained without wrongdoing;

- or he had been compelled by somebody else to commit that wrong.

But God is Omniscient and All‑Knowing; He is free from want
and is not in need of anything
; and He is Omnipotent and nobody can compel Him to do anything. So logically it is impossible for God to do any injustice or wrong.

Umm, firstly, they forgot one reason: what if God just does it for the sake of pleasure?

and also, can someone please explain why God can't be in need of anything?

And if you have any other kind of proof of God's justice, I'd appreciate it if you posted it :)

thanks a lot

Wassalam

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(bismillah)

(salam)

This article is an attempt to prove two points:

1. God's justice is a reality.

2. If God is just, it does not mean that individuals have to accept their present social situations; but on the contrary, it will mean that they have to change it.

bkhome.gif

Divine Justice or The Problem of Evil

Title

Foreword

Part 1

A Brief History of The Problem

Part 2

Suffering and not Evil

Part 3

Limitless Desires

Part 4

Spectators and Participants

Part 5

A question and its answer

Part 6

Orders of Existence

Part 7

Benefits of Suffering

Part 8

The Problem of Death

Link: http://www.al-islam.org/divinejustice_problemofevil/

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(bismillah)

(salam)

This article is an attempt to prove two points:

1. God's justice is a reality.

2. If God is just, it does not mean that individuals have to accept their present social situations; but on the contrary, it will mean that they have to change it.

bkhome.gif

Divine Justice or The Problem of Evil

Title

Foreword

Part 1

A Brief History of The Problem

Part 2

Suffering and not Evil

Part 3

Limitless Desires

Part 4

Spectators and Participants

Part 5

A question and its answer

Part 6

Orders of Existence

Part 7

Benefits of Suffering

Part 8

The Problem of Death

Link: http://www.al-islam.org/divinejustice_problemofevil/

(salam)

thank you sister for the link

inshallah i'll read it soon

Wassalam

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Why does Allah need to be Just?

Under the arguments for Justice, I've been taught that Allah must be Just for the following reason in my pre-Hawza class:

"Now, suppose that He treats a creature oppressively or commits what is bad, then it must be because of one of four reasons.

  1. He is ignorant of the action and does not know that it is evil.

  2. He knows that it is bad, but He has been compelled to do it, and is unable to desist from it.

  3. He knows that it is bad, He has not been compelled to do it, however it is necessary for Him to do it.

  4. He knows that it is bad, He has not been compelled to do it, He does not need it, however He does it at His pleasure, out of desire, without a cause.

Each of these are impossible to apply to
Allah
, as each one entails a deficiency in Him, but He is Absolute Perfection. Therefore we must say that He is glorified from oppression and from doing what is evil or bad."

Now, why is it that Allah cannot have a deficiency in Him? And also, how are these deficiencies? If possible, can someone go by each "reason" explaining why it cannot happen?

Thanks for your help

Wassalam

Allâh Most High is not compelled to be Just, he is not compelled to anything for He is the Doer of whatever He wills 'فعّال لما يريد'. He is Just but He punishes because He said this for Himself in the Qur'ân that He will punish for those things that are forbidden and reward for those things which He praised.

As for 'He knows that it is bad', it is He who decides what is bad and good for if this would be left over to the people then they would contradict themselves while time is going on.

Just to show a failure of deciding what is just and what is not by human reason is to simply look at the concept of Imâmate and how it's developed. Firstly, it was necessary by reason to have a Guide (present) because it is kindness and kindness is incumbent upon Allâh Most High (per 12r Shi'a reasoning), this went allright up till the 11th Imâm which after suddenly no Guide was there, no kindness of "live guidance". It is astonishing how 'without dying an Imâm' was later changed by the Shi'i Mutakallimûn into 'without recognizing the Imâm' since they don't have any imâm, they only "recognize" his existence nothing more. So since they are deprived of the Imâm, where is the kindness which was "supposedly" bestowed upon the earlier 12rs who had the chance to be 'guided' by their present A'immah? Was Allâh Most High more Just to the earlier 12rs and less just to the latter? Isn't depriving the guidance of the guide injustice according to 12r understanding of their 'Adl concept?

Edited by Abu'l Fadl
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Allâh Most High is not compelled to be Just, he is not compelled to anything for He is the Doer of whatever He wills 'ÝÚøÇá áãÇ íÑíÏ'. He is Just but He punishes because He said this for Himself in the Qur'ân that He will punish for those things that are forbidden and reward for those things which He praised.

As for 'He knows that it is bad', it is He who decides what is bad and good for if this would be left over to the people then they would contradict themselves while time is going on.

Just to show a failure of deciding what is just and what is not by human reason is to simply look at the concept of Imâmate and how it's developed. Firstly, it was necessary by reason to have a Guide (present) because it is kindness and kindness is incumbent upon Allâh Most High (per 12r Shi'a reasoning), this went allright up till the 11th Imâm which after suddenly no Guide was there, no kindness of "live guidance". It is astonishing how 'without dying an Imâm' was later changed by the Shi'i Mutakallimûn into 'without recognizing the Imâm' since they don't have any imâm, they only "recognize" his existence nothing more. So since they are deprived of the Imâm, where is the kindness which was "supposedly" bestowed upon the earlier 12rs who had the chance to be 'guided' by their present A'immah? Was Allâh Most High more Just to the earlier 12rs and less just to the latter? Isn't depriving the guidance of the guide injustice according to 12r understanding of their 'Adl concept?

(bismillah)

(salam)

Imam al-Mahdi AS wrote through one of his special deputies during the minor occultation:

"Rest assured, no one has a special relationship with Allah. Whoever denies me is not from my (community). The appearance of the Relief (al-Faraj) depends solely upon Allah. Therefore those who propose a certain time for it are liars. As to the benefit of my existence in occultation, it is like the benefit of the sun behind the clouds where the eyes do not see it. Indeed, my existence is an amnesty for the inhabitants of the earth. Pray much to Allah to hasten the Relief, for therein also lies the release from your sufferings."

Necessity of the Existence of Imam al-Mahdi AS

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter2/4.html

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(salam)

Thank you Abu'l Fadl and Hameedeh for your contributions to this thread.

I would appreciate it, however, brother Abu'l Fadl, if you discuss Imamate and whatnot in a thread that concerns that topic.

Jazakumullah khayran

Wassalam

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(salam)

bro these are the only possible reasons for why Allah would do something bad

can you give any other possible reason? I mean, instead of just saying that "perhaps" there's a 5th reason?

how would you prove the justice of Allah?

Thanks for your reply

Wassalam

the argument above says that God must be oppressive for one of the 4 reasons. and because none of the for reasons can properly be applied to God, it means that God cannot be oppressive.

he first presmise needs to be proven.

and I am not obliged to give a 5 th reason. burden of proof is not on me. te claim is that it must be only i out of 4 reasons. well why not 1 out of more than 4 reasons?

m3salama

byebye

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the argument above says that God must be oppressive for one of the 4 reasons. and because none of the for reasons can properly be applied to God, it means that God cannot be oppressive.

he first presmise needs to be proven.

and I am not obliged to give a 5 th reason. burden of proof is not on me. te claim is that it must be only i out of 4 reasons. well why not 1 out of more than 4 reasons?

m3salama

byebye

(salam)

brother, how would you prove the justice of Allah?

Wassalam

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It is actually not possible to prove that Allah is just, but as Muslims we are required to accept on faith that He is so. For example, we cannot prove that God will be forced to send a person to Heaven if he has performed more good deeds than bad. We can never say that God has no choice in this matter, and, because He is necessarily just, he cannot send that good believing Muslim to Hell even though he deserves to go to Heaven. Saying so implies that God is restricted by His own laws, which we cannot assume since He is not restricted by anything (not even His own laws). Hence, we as Muslims are required to accept on faith that God is Just; it is not possible to prove it.

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It is actually not possible to prove that Allah is just, but as Muslims we are required to accept on faith that He is so. For example, we cannot prove that God will be forced to send a person to Heaven if he has performed more good deeds than bad. We can never say that God has no choice in this matter, and, because He is necessarily just, he cannot send that good believing Muslim to Hell even though he deserves to go to Heaven. Saying so implies that God is restricted by His own laws, which we cannot assume since He is not restricted by anything (not even His own laws). Hence, we as Muslims are required to accept on faith that God is Just; it is not possible to prove it.

There are some thinkers who believed God unjust for unfairly elevating certain individuals.

9th century Persian Al-Razi:

On what ground do you deem it necessary that God should single out certain individuals [by giving them prophecy],

that he should set them up above other people, that he should appoint them to be the people's guides,

and make people dependent upon them?

10th-century Syrian poet Abu al- Ala al-Maarri:

Mohammed or Messiah! Hear thou me,

The truth entire nor here nor there can be;

How should our God who made the sun and the moon Give all his light to One,

I cannot see.

What is your reaction to these opinions?

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It is actually not possible to prove that Allah is just, but as Muslims we are required to accept on faith that He is so. For example, we cannot prove that God will be forced to send a person to Heaven if he has performed more good deeds than bad. We can never say that God has no choice in this matter, and, because He is necessarily just, he cannot send that good believing Muslim to Hell even though he deserves to go to Heaven. Saying so implies that God is restricted by His own laws, which we cannot assume since He is not restricted by anything (not even His own laws). Hence, we as Muslims are required to accept on faith that God is Just; it is not possible to prove it.

(salam)

Then what if Allah is not just?

Doesn't that make religion useless?

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There are some thinkers who believed God unjust for unfairly elevating certain individuals.

What is your reaction to these opinions?

We don't really know why these individuals were elevated. There are several ahadith in the Shi'ite canon that state that the position of people in this world was the result of their actions in the previous (spiritual) world, so it cannot simply be said that different ranks of individuals in this life is the result of some "unfairness" on God's part, since our ignorance of the reason for these differing ranks doesn't mean that there isn't a reason.

(salam)

Then what if Allah is not just?

Doesn't that make religion useless?

Just because we don't have proof that Allah is just does not mean that Allah is not just. There are many things that we cannot prove, but that does not mean that these things are not true. It just means that our knowledge is limited and hence we do not have the ability to prove these things. The Justice of Allah falls in this category. We have faith in it, but it is not possible to philosophically prove that Allah is necessarily just.

If Allah was not just, then, yes, that would indeed make religion (all religions, actually) useless, and that would mean a lot of trouble for us human beings. Except for the evil ones, I suppose, since they don't really have much to lose in the first place.

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We don't really know why these individuals were elevated. There are several ahadith in the Shi'ite canon that state that the position of people in this world was the result of their actions in the previous (spiritual) world, so it cannot simply be said that different ranks of individuals in this life is the result of some "unfairness" on God's part, since our ignorance of the reason for these differing ranks doesn't mean that there isn't a reason.

I thought all humans were made with the same clay.

I believe the Quran says so.

I was not aware that there was a previous (spiritual) world where you could score points.... presumably that cannot be proven either and it has to be taken on faith.

I often wonder, if something is unknowable in human terms then to what degree can you claim anything about it?

Thank you for your reply; I do like your honest approach.

*

Edited by Quisant
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I thought all humans were made with the same clay.

How is that relevant here?

I was not aware that there was a previous (spiritual) world where you could score points.... presumably that cannot be proven either and it has to be taken on faith.

Of course. It is taken on faith.

I often wonder, if something is unknowable in human terms then to what degree can you claim anything about it?

You can claim anything you want about it, you just can't prove it or justify it with any evidence.

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Of course. It is taken on faith.

You can claim anything you want about it, you just can't prove it or justify it with any evidence.

But claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Do you believe that reason and faith are sufficient tools to determine the truth?

Aristotle himself believed heavy objects fall faster than light ones. And because Aristotle believed it, it remained the accepted wisdom for over a thousand years.

Galileo decided to test the proposition. As it turns out, heavy objects fall at the same rate as light objects (discounting wind resistance).

So Aristotle was wrong and it took a single well designed experiment to overturn a thousand years of received wisdom.

*

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Ah, very nice a quote from christopher hitchens i believe? " That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without it"

You're arguments are good :D

Thank you for your nice comment.

I don't really mean to have an argument; I think the poster "fyst" has impeccable logic.

I am merely asking questions because I am interested in his opinion.

All the best.

*

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But claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Of course. I'm not asking anyone to accept that claim, I'm just saying that the pre-world existence is a possible scenario in Shi'ite theology.

Do you believe that reason and faith are sufficient tools to determine the truth?

I don't see how faith is useful in any way in determining the truth. Reason, of course, is a preeminent tool in determining the truth, but often, like in the example you mention, reason alone is not enough (Not because reason by itself is "defective" in some way, but because reasoning requires assuming certain claims to be true (to serve as the axioms), and when you assume false things to be true, you obviously end up with conclusions that are false as well. Hence the need of experiments to verify one's reasoning.).

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(salam)

:)

Just
: guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness: We hope to be just in our understanding of such difficult situations.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/just

.... all right, now you begin you 6 page debate :lol:

Edited by 14infallibles
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(bismillah)

(salam)

ãóäú Úóãöáó ÕóÇáöÍðÇ ÝóáöäóÝúÓöåö ۖ æóãóäú ÃóÓóÇÁó ÝóÚóáóíúåóÇ ۗ æóãóÇ ÑóÈøõßó ÈöÙóáøóÇãò áöáúÚóÈöíÏö {46}

[shakir 41:46] Whoever does good, it is for his own soul, and whoever does evil, it is against it; and your Lord is not in the least unjust to the servants.

[Pickthal 41:46] Whoso doeth right it is for his soul, and whoso doeth wrong it is against it. And thy Lord is not at all a tyrant to His slaves.

[Yusufali 41:46] Whoever works righteousness benefits his own soul; whoever works evil, it is against his own soul: nor is thy Lord ever unjust (in the least) to His Servants.

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I don't see how faith is useful in any way in determining the truth. Reason, of course, is a preeminent tool in determining the truth, but often, like in the example you mention, reason alone is not enough (Not because reason by itself is "defective" in some way, but because reasoning requires assuming certain claims to be true (to serve as the axioms), and when you assume false things to be true, you obviously end up with conclusions that are false as well. Hence the need of experiments to verify one's reasoning.).

If faith is not useful for determining the truth and reason alone may lead you to false conclusions... what would a convincing argument for God's existence be like?

*

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lol, that won't happen anytime soon anymore (not until the exams are over)..

(salam)

aww man, your debates are so fun to read (not to mention funny) :lol:

and I still learn so much from them at the same time ;)

but, I've noticed you seem to go back to the scholars more than fyst (i mght be mistaken in this), and from what I know, the scholars did believe that you can prove the justice of Allah, no'?

so how would they prove it?

Or do you agree with fyst that you can't prove it?

Wassalam

Edited by 14infallibles
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If faith is not useful for determining the truth and reason alone may lead you to false conclusions... what would a convincing argument for God's existence be like?

*

In hindsight, there is no need to answer this question;

it is completely off topic derail (it has little to do with God's justice) and it could be the subject for another discussion.

All the best.

*

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Does the dictionary give me your understanding of justice??? NO. Which is why I asked for it from you..

Did you see anyone else on this thread asking for the definition of "justice" before replying??? No you didn't. Because everyone understands what it means when used in general. You're simply wasting my time. But just to satisfy your curiosity, justice means to give a thing what it deserves.

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Did you see anyone else on this thread asking for the definition of "justice" before replying??? No you didn't. Because everyone understands what it means when used in general. You're simply wasting my time. But just to satisfy your curiosity, justice means to give a thing what it deserves.

Mercy, therefore, is not giving people what they deserve.

I think it was a philosopher called Leibniz who pointed out a contradiction in God's attributes:

Amongst God's attributes He is Just and He is Merciful.

Being just means enacting punishment appropriate to the crime and being merciful means forgiving or enacting lesser punishment than that fits the crime.  

Any time God forgives a sin, he could have been more just, any time he punishes, he could have been merciful.

How is this resolved?

*

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