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In the Name of God بسم الله

Seeing Allah In Paradise

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Hey brothers and sisters, I was watching some videos on Youtube, and i came across this video:

: which is called Sheikh Talib - Very, very emotional Khutbah about seeing Allah in PARADISE!

I cant fully understand arabic, but is he saying that we will see Allah (swt) with our own eyes in heaven?

w/s

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when I 1st saw the title I was like no we can't see God even in heaven.. then I went to ur video which is a video of the wahabi shick in hara'm, and then was like mhmmmm that makes sense.. coz sunnies think they'd see God there..

as shia, we don't believe that ... not even if we make it to heaven.. there was a gr8 story abt how prophet mohammad was the closest one to seeing God, and even him had like 70 layers of lights or something btwn em.. 2 bad can't remember it right :S

the point is that we won't...

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when I 1st saw the title I was like no we can't see God even in heaven.. then I went to ur video which is a video of the wahabi shick in hara'm, and then was like mhmmmm that makes sense.. coz sunnies think they'd see God there..

as shia, we don't believe that ... not even if we make it to heaven.. there was a gr8 story abt how prophet mohammad was the closest one to seeing God, and even him had like 70 layers of lights or something btwn em.. 2 bad can't remember it right :S

the point is that we won't...

Could you find that story for me please? I'd love to read about it. Thanks.

(wasalam)

Edited by Legio Invicta
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OMG it was such an amazing story.. can't find it any where.. I can't even remember where I read it :S gosh my memory sux! :S

I'll call a shick and I'll tell him the bits and pieces I remember.. maybe he could find it :D

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(bismillah)

áÇøó ÊõÏúÑößõåõ ÇáÃóÈúÕóÇÑõ æóåõæó íõÏúÑößõ ÇáÃóÈúÕóÇÑó æóåõæó ÇááøóØöíÝõ ÇáúÎóÈöíÑõ

"Vision comprehendeth Him not, but He comprehendeth (all) vision. He is the Subtile, the Aware". (6:103)

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(salam)

How? :unsure: And in what shape?

Don't people become Kafir/heretic or something when they make these claims (see Allah swt in dreams or akhira)? :unsure:

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?ID=6259&CATE=24

That should clarify the position of Ahlul Sunnah. Basically, Ahlul Sunnah affirms that Allah will be seen in the afterlife, but does not specify the how of this vision, except that the vision does not negate any of Allah's attributes (or tawhid). So, it could mean that the believers may see the signs of Allah's essence in the afterlife or something else...this is not known.

I have heard certain scholars say that Allah will be seen through "these two eyes" (pointing to their eyes). I personally believe that this is jumping the gun and amounts to shirk, but my opinion doesn't really matter.

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(salam)

Sunnipath website is listed as an attack site.

Qaim posted a quranic verse which state we will be unable to see Allah swt with our naked eyes.. How do Sunni view that verse?

I believe that verse refers to this life, not the next one. Although, I could be mistaken. I'll do a bit of research.

I'm not exactly sure why it's listed as an attack website. Here is a the response reproduced below:

Answer: In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,

The position of the mainstream Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama'ah (Asha'ira and Maturidiyya) is that the vision of Allah Most High with the eyes of the head is rationally (aqlan) possible and that the believers will be blessed with this vision in the hereafter.

This vision, however, will be without encompassment (ihata) or delimitation (tahdid) within any given limit (hadd), whether from the front, the back, above, below, right, or left. Allah Most High will be seen (unlike any material being) not in place or in a direction so far as being confronted, nor by the conjunction of the rays of light, nor by a certain definite distance between the one who sees and Allah.

In other words, the believers will see Allah Most High in Paradise without our specifying how and in a manner Allah knows best. It is impossible and wrong to draw analogy for the unseen from the seen. This vision of Allah is certainly unlike the vision of material things in this world, for vision in this world requires the seen to be in a place, direction, at a specific distance, etc, whilst the vision of Allah Most High in the hereafter will be free from such restrictions. Allah Most High will enable the believers to see His esteemed self. (Culled from Mulla Ali al-Qari's Sharh Fiqh al-Akbar P: 245-246, Taftazani's Sharh al-Aqa'id al-Nasafiyya P: 131, Nuh Ali Suleyman's commentary on Jawhara al-Tawhid P: 113 and Bajuri's commentary on the Jawhara P: 114)

The above is the position that the Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama'ah scholars have always maintained. The Mu'tazila and some other groups such as the Shi'a held that Allah Most High could not be seen at all, even on the Day of Resurrection or in Paradise. They interpreted certain verses of the Qur'an erroneously, rejected some sound hadiths claiming that such vision necessitated a physical body for Allah and a direction, which He Most High is free from. However, the position of the Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama'ah is supported by many evidences of the Qur'an and Sunnah, of which some are presented below:

1) Allah Most High says:

"Some faces, that day, will beam (in brightness and beauty), looking towards their Lord."(Surah al-Qiyama, V: 22-23)

2) Allah Most High says regarding the Prophet Sayyiduna Musa (Peace be upon him):

"When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! Show (Yourself) to me, that I may look upon You." Allah said: "By no means can you see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abides in its place, then you shall see Me..." (Surah al-A'raf, V: 143)

In the above verse, Sayyiduna Musa (peace be upon him) requested to see Allah Most High. Had the vision of Allah been impossible, the request of Sayyiduna Musa (peace be upon him) would have been out of ignorance or foolishness or he would be making a request for the impossible, whereas all the Prophets of Allah are far removed from such things. Secondly, Allah Most High connected the vision with the abiding of the mountain firm in its place, which is something that is possible in itself. Hence, that which is connected to the possible is also possible. (Taftazani and Nasafi, Sharh al-Aqa'id al-Nasafiyya, P: 127-128)

3) Allah Most High says:

"There will be for them therein (in Paradise) all that they wish, and more besides in Our presence."(Surah Qaf, V: 35)

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) interpreted "more" saying that it referred to the vision of Allah Most High. (Narrated by Muslim and others)

4) Allah Most High says regarding the disbelievers:

"Verily, from their Lord, that Day, will they be veiled."(Surah al-Mutaffifin, V: 15)

This verse explains that the disbelievers will be deprived from the vision of Allah; hence by contrast, it implies that the believers will be blessed with this vision. Thus, Sayyiduna Imam Shafi'i (Allah have mercy on him) said:

"Allah Most High's veiling Himself from a people (disbelievers) due to His displeasure indicates that a group (believers) will see Him due to His pleasure. By Allah, had Muhammad ibn Idrees (Shafi'i himself) not been convinced that he will see his Lord in the hereafter, he would not have worshipped him in this world!" (Bajuri, Tuhfat al-Murid)

5) Sayyiduna Abu Hurayra (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the people (companions) said: "O Messenger of Allah! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He replied: "Do you have any doubt in seeing the full moon on a clear (not cloudy) night?" They replied: "No, O Messenger of Allah" He said: "Do you have any doubt in seeing the sun when there are no clouds?" They replied in the negative. He said: "You will see Allah (your Lord) in the same way...." (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 773)

6) Sayyiduna Jarir ibn Abd Allah (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that we were sitting in the company of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) on a fourteenth night (of the lunar month), and he looked at the (full) moon and said: "You will see your Lord as you see this moon. You have no trouble in looking at it. So, whoever can should not miss the offering of prayers before sunrise (Fajr prayer) and before sunset (Asr prayer)." Then the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) recited: "And celebrate the praises of your Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting." (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 4570 and others)

7) Moreover, the occurrence of the vision of Allah has been narrated from Sayyiduna Abu Bakr, Sayyiduna Huzayfa ibn al-Yaman, Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Mas'ud, Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Abbas, Sayyiduna Abu Musa al-Ash'ari and many others (Allah be pleased with them all). No Companion (sahabi) of the Messenger of Allah is reported to have rejected the vision of Allah; hence there is complete consensus of the Companions on this. (Sharh al-Aqa'id al-Nasafiyya, P: 131 & Tuhfat al-Murid Sharh al-Jawhara, P: 115)

As far as the verse "Visions comprehend Him not, but He comprehends (all) vision" (6: 139) is concerned, it refers to encompassing Allah Most High with our vision. Vision and encompassment are two different things, the latter is rejected in this verse, in that the visions of humans will not be able to encompass Allah most High (even in the hereafter), whilst the former (vision) has been proven in many verses of the Qur'an and many Hadiths. (ibid)

The vision of Allah Most High in this world

The above few evidences were relating to the possibility of seeing Allah and the believers seeing Him Most High in the hereafter. As far as seeing Allah Most High in this world is concerned, there are two situations here. Seeing Him whist awake and secondly seeing Him in sleep.

a) Seeing Allah whilst awake

There is, more or less, a consensus amongst the Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama'ah scholars that, though logically possible, nobody is able to see Allah Most High in this world in the state of being awake. However, there is a difference of opinion as to whether the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) saw Allah Most High in the night of ascension (me'raj) or not.

The renowned Hadith scholar and Hanafi jurist, Mulla Ali al-Qari (Allah have mercy on him) states:

"There is an agreement among the Muslims (scholars) that no believer will see Allah Most High with his eyes in this world. The scholars only differed with regards to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) seeing Allah during his ascension to the heavens." (Sharh Fiqh al-Akbar, P: 354)

Mulla Ali al-Qari then said, there is a consensus on the fact that the vision of Allah cannot take place in this world for other than the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace). He quoted Ibn al-Salah and Abu Shama saying that the one who claims to have seen Allah whilst being awake will not be believed, for this (vision of Allah whilst being awake) is something that even Sayyiduna Musa (peace be upon him) was prevented from when Allah Most High said to him: "By no means can you see Me". However, there is a difference of opinion whether this vision occurred for the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace). (ibid)

Some scholars went to the extent of considering such a person, who claims to have seen Allah whilst awake, a Kafir, although most scholars were precautions and did not consider such a person to be an outright Kafir. However, there is no doubt that this person will be considered to have severely deviated. (ibid) Hence, no individual (besides the Messenger of Allah) is able to see Allah Most High whilst being awake in this mortal world.

As far as the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is concerned, the Companions differed as to whether he (Allah bless him & give him peace) saw Allah in the night of Isra' and Me'raj or not. Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Abbas and others (Allah be pleased with them all) related that he did, whilst Sayyida A'isha, Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Mas'ud and others (Allah be pleased with them all) were of the opinion that he did not see Allah with the eyes of his head during his ascension to the heavens. As a result, the scholars of the Ahl al-Sunnah also have conflicting views on this issue.

Imam al-Bukhari relates that Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) said regarding the statement of Allah: "And We granted the vision (Ascension to the heavens) which We showed you, but as a trial for men..." (17.60): He said: "The sights which the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) was shown on the night he was taken to Bayt al-Maqdis (i.e. Jerusalem) were actual sights, (not dreams). And the cursed tree (mentioned) in the Qur'an is the tree of Zaqqum." (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 3675)

Imam Tirmidhi has also related some narrations from Abd Allah ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) wherein he states that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) did see his Lord in the night of Isra' and Me'raj. (See: Sunan Tirmidhi, chapter on the commentary of the Qur'an, Surah al-Najm)

On the other hand, Sayyida A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) has rigorously denied that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) saw Allah Most High with the eyes of his head. The following is the narration expressing her viewpoint:

Imam al-Bukhari (Allah have mercy on him) narrates from Masruq that the latter said: "I said to A'isha: "O my mother! Did Muhammad (Allah bless him & give him peace) see his Lord?" She replied: "My hair stands on end because of what you said. Have you no idea of three things? Whoever tells them to you is lying. Whosoever tells you that Muhammad (Allah bless him & give him peace) saw his Lord, is lying." She then recited: "Visions comprehend Him not, but He comprehends (all) vision. He is the Subtle, the Aware" and "And it is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil". (Secondly), whosoever tells you that he knows what shall happen tomorrow is lying." She then recited: "No soul knows what it will earn tomorrow" And (thirdly) whosoever tells you that he (Allah bless him & give him peace) concealed something, is lying." She then recited: "O Messenger. Proclaim the (message) which has been sent to you from your Lord" "However, he (Allah bless him & give him peace) did see (the angel) Jibra'il (peace be upon him) in his actual form twice." (Sahih al-Bukhari, no: 4574).

Some scholars explained that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) had a vision with the eyes of the heart, and not with the eyes of his head. This is elucidated by Ibn Abbas' other narrations in Sahih Muslim and elsewhere where he said: "He saw him with his heart." Hence, in this way, the two opinions may be reconciled. (Ibn Hajar, Fath al-Bari, 8/430)

Imam al-Bajuri (Allah have mercy on him) said that the preferred position according to the Ulama is that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) did see his Lord in the night of al-Isra' and al-Me'raj with the eyes of his head. The Hadith of Sayyiduna Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) will be given preference over the position of Sayyida A'isha (Allah be pleased with her), as the principle states "Affirmation (ithbat) takes precedence over the negation (nafi)". Hence, the position of Ibn Abbas and others (Allah be pleased with them all) will be given preference and it will be said that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) was blessed with the vision of his Lord in the night of al-Isra' and al-Me'raj. (Bajuri, Tuhfat al-Murid, P: 117-118)

The best statement on the issue is of Shaykh Muhyi al-Din ibn Arabi (Allah have mercy on him). He said: This world is that which is below the heavens and anything above the heavens is considered to be part of the next world (akhira). Hence, the vision of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) will not be considered a vision of this world; rather it is a vision of the next world, and there is no disagreement concerning the vision of the hereafter. Hence, this vision of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) was also a type of the vision of the hereafter. (See: Ma'arif al-Qur'an, 3/412)

B) Seeing Allah in a dream

As far as the vision of Allah Most High in a dream is concerned, Imam al-Taftazani (Allah have mercy on him) states in his commentary of Imam Nasafi's al-Aqa'id:

"As far as the vision of Allah in sleep is concerned, it is something that has been related from many predecessors (salaf). And there is no doubt that this is a type of observation by the heart rather than the eye." (Sharh al-Aqa'id al-Nasafiyya, P: 135)

Mulla Ali al-Qari (Allah have mercy on him) states in his renowned Sharh Fiqh al-Akbar:

"The majority of the scholars are of the view that the vision of Allah Most High in sleep is possible, without any given description of modality (kayfiyya), direction (jiha) or quiddity (hay'a). It is recorded that Imam Abu Hanifa (Allah have mercy on him) said: "I saw Allah Most High 99 times whilst asleep." Then he saw Him the hundredth time also, the story of which is long and not feasible to be mentioned here. It is recorded that Imam Ahmad (Allah have mercy on him) said: "I saw Allah Most High in a dream, I said: "O Lord! How is it possible to achieve closeness to You?" He replied: "By the recitation of my speech (Qur'an)." I said: "O Lord! Recitation with understanding or (even) without understanding?" He replied: "With or without understanding." It is also narrated from the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) that he said: "I saw my Lord in my sleep." Hence, the vision of Allah in sleep is recorded from many predecessors (salaf) and it is a type of observation by the heart observed by noble people..." (Sharh Fiqh al-Akbar, P: 356-357)

Imam al-Bajuri (Allah have mercy on him) states:

"As far as seeing Allah Most High in sleep, it is narrated from Qadhi Iyadh that there is no difference of opinion regarding its occurrence and truth, for the Satan cannot take the form of Allah Most High like he cannot take the form of the Prophets (peace be upon them)..... (Tuhfat al-Murid, P: 118)

The above-mentioned few texts of the scholars indicate clearly that Allah Most High can be (and has been) seen in a dream. It is something that His noble and pious servants are blessed with, and one cannot deny its occurrence. Indeed some Ulama did deny the possibility of seeing Allah in sleep, but that is a minority position not accepted by the majority of the scholars.

Imam al-Bajuri (Allah have mercy on him) has mentioned some additional notes regarding the vision of Allah in sleep in his commentary of Jawhara al-Tahid.

He states that, if one sees Allah in a manner that is not impossible for Allah, then one has surely seen Him. However, if one sees Him in a form that is impossible for Him such as seeing Him in a form of a specific individual, then that is not Allah rather it is the creation of Allah, and the dream will need to be interpreted by those qualified to do so. Some scholars said that even in such a case, one did actually see Allah, but the form seen is not the reality of Allah; rather, it is reflecting the mind of the one having the vision. (Tuhfat al-Murid Sharh Jawhara al-Tawhid, P: 118)

Imam Ibn Sirin (Allah have mercy on him), a major classical scholar considered to be a master in the science of interpreting dreams, states in his renowned book, The Interpretation of Dreams: (This book incidentally covers over 900 dreams with their meanings explained. It explains what facts are to be taken into account when interpreting a dream, when is a dream regarded as true or false, etc.)

"Sayyiduna Daniyal (peace be upon him) relates that if a believer was to see Allah Most High in his dream unequalled and incomparable, as is related in the verses of the Qur'an and in the Hadiths, he will be blessed with the magnificent sight of Allah Most High (in the hereafter) and his needs will also be fulfilled. If an individual was to see a dream in a manner that he was standing before Allah Most High and that He Most High was watching him, then the dream is a sign of his piety and spiritual well-being. He will be chosen for forgiveness, and if he is sinful he will repent." (Ta'bir al-Ru'ya, P: 67)

Imam Ibn Sirin then goes on to mention many types of dreams in which one sees Allah Most High and gives their interpretations. For example, if one sees that Allah Most High is talking secretly with one, then this means one is close to Allah Most High. If one sees that Allah Most High is advising one and giving one Nasiha, then this alludes to the fact that Allah Most High is not completely happy with one's actions. A glad tiding from Allah is a sign of His pleasure and admonition from Allah is a sign of His wrath and anger (ibid). For more details, one may refer to Imam Ibn Sirin's above-mentioned book, but one should consult a reliable scholar of knowledge, piety and wisdom before coming to any sort of conclusion.

To sum up, the vision of Allah Most High is rationally possible and the believers will be blessed with this vision in the hereafter. However, no one is able to see Allah in this world whilst in a state of being awake besides the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace), and regarding the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) too, there is a difference of opinion amongst the Companions (Allah be pleased with them all). As far as seeing Allah in sleep is concerned, this is possible and is related from many pious servants of Allah, saints and scholars.

And Allah knows best

Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari

Darul Iftaa, Leicester, UK

www.daruliftaa.com

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(salam)

Brother ninjaslim, what do you personally believe?

Do you believe we will be able to see Allah in the same kind of way that we see the moon in this life (i remember reading a hadith like this in a Sunni book..)?

Thank you for your time

Wassalam

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This is a tough topic.

Anyway here is what a Shia scholar says.

(ix) Vision (ru'yah) of God:

The Mu'tazilah vehemently deny the possibility of seeing God with the eyes. They believe that one may only have faith in God, a faith which is rooted in the mind and the intellect. That is, one can acquire a firm conviction in the depth of one's soul and mind in the existence of God, and this is the highest kind of faith one may attain. God can by no means be seen or observed. This is testified by the Qur'an when it says:

The sights do not perceive Him, and He perceives the sights, and He is All-subtle (incapable of being perceived) and All-knowing (i.e. perceives the eyes and the rest of things). (6:103).

The Asha'irah, with equal vehemence, assert that God can be seen with the eyes, but only on the Day of Resurrection. They also cite as evidence certain Qur'anic verses and prophetic traditions to support their claim. One of the verses they cite is:

(Some) faces on that Day shall be bright, looking towards their Lord. (75:22-23)

The 12r Shi'ah believe that God can never be seen with the eyes, neither in this life nor in the Hereafter. Nevertheless, the highest kind of faith is not an intellectual one. The intellectual faith is 'ilm al-yaqin. A higher level of faith than that of the intellect is 'ayn al-yaqin - certitude of the heart. 'Ayn al-yaqin (lit. certitude by sight) means witnessing God with the heart, not with the eyes. Thus, though God cannot be seen with the eyes, He is 'visible' to the heart. 'Ali (A) was once asked, "Have you seen God?" He replied, "I have not worshipped a god whom I have not seen. But He is visible to the hearts, not to the eyes." The Imams (A) were asked whether the Prophet (S) saw God during his Ascension (mi'raj). Their reply was: "With the eyes? No. With the heart? Yes." In this matter only the Sufis have a viewpoint resembling the Shi'ah position

Now the issue is there is no Mutazilla scholar alive to see this reply. Will they be willing to accept this reply ?

On the contrary, I don't agree with the Asharii explanation or views.

Edited by Abdaal
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(salam)

Brother ninjaslim, what do you personally believe?

Do you believe we will be able to see Allah in the same kind of way that we see the moon in this life (i remember reading a hadith like this in a Sunni book..)?

Thank you for your time

Wassalam

I am not aware of such a hadith, but taking such a hadith literally would go against the position of Ahlul Sunnah on this issue. I believe in exactly what I clarified earlier: the believers will be able to see Allah in the afterlife, but the how of the vision is not specified and cannot and does not negate any of the attributes of Allah (or tawhid).

Imam abu al-Hassan asws, said, ‘The other verses point out what the Prophet (sawa) actually saw. Allah has said, “His heart did not lie about what he saw,” (53: 11) It means that the heart of Muhammad did not belie what his eyes saw. Therefore, Allah in the subsequent verse has said, “Indeed he saw of the greatest signs of his Lord.” (53:18) The signs of Allah are different from Allah Himself. Allah has also said, “They cannot limit Him in their knowledge.” (20:110) If the eyes could see Him, then people might limit Him in their knowledge and He could be fully defined.’ “Abu Qurrah asked, ‘Do you disregard Hadith?’ Imam abu al- Hassan asws replied, ‘If Ahadith are contrary to Holy Quran, I disregard them.

Besides, all Muslims believe that Allah cannot be limited by (anyone’s) knowledge, that eyes cannot see Him and that nothing is similar to Him.’”

(al-Kafi)

The Sunni position is not problematic even in light of this. The Sunni say that Allah (swt) can be seen, but the vision not specified and is not such that Allah's attributes (or tawhid) are negated. In essence, the Sunni are keeping up with the practice of not interpreting verses figuratively or metaphorically whereas the Shi'a take a tougher and bolder position.

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The Sunni position is not problematic even in light of this. The Sunni say that Allah (swt) can be seen, but the vision not specified and is not such that Allah's attributes (or tawhid) are negated. In essence, the Sunni are keeping up with the practice of not interpreting verses figuratively or metaphorically whereas the Shi'a take a tougher and bolder position.

This is correct. And we know very well that the vision should not negate the Allah tawhid, and that is why Shias in some sense trying to give a logical answer for those verses talking about seeing Allah. But what we are both sure is that it has nothing to do with "physical seeing" (like body,arms etc) vision, and this is why i love Imam Ali (as) saying of "I have not worshipped a god whom I have not seen. But He is visible to the hearts, not to the eyes".

In the end i do not see that Sunnis or Shias are wrong with this issue as long they do not negate the tawhid of Allah.

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(salam)

Sunnipath website is listed as an attack site.

Qaim posted a quranic verse which state we will be unable to see Allah swt with our naked eyes.. How do Sunni view that verse?

Actually the verse says الأَبْصَارُ which means "absar" or "visions" with a plural. I think it is in reference to different types of visions, not just the naked eye, but vision itself cannot comprehend Him.

Edited by Qa'im
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Could you find that story for me please? I'd love to read about it. Thanks.

(wasalam)

ok so the story I was looking for is apparently in the tafseer in the first verse of Surat Al-Esra'a.. couldn't find the whole story in English tho.. I'll translate it later tonight :D

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Actually the verse says ÇáÃóÈúÕóÇÑõ which means "absar" or "visions" with a plural. I think it is in reference to different types of visions, not just the naked eye, but vision itself cannot comprehend Him.

What sort of visions do exist? If you intend "seeing with heart" then this is figurative which implies perceiving with the heart and it is known that perceiving is not equal to vision/seeing.

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What sort of visions do exist? If you intend "seeing with heart" then this is figurative which implies perceiving with the heart and it is known that perceiving is not equal to vision/seeing.

Seeing with a heart is more of a metaphorical seeing, I was thinking more along the lines of:

1. Seeing with a naked eye of any physical creature

2. Seeing with a device like a telescope, magnifier, glasses, infrared, etc.

3. Seeing via spiritual means (angels, jann, etc.)

Allah cannot be comprehended through the means above.

Edited by Qa'im
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“His heart did not lie about what he saw,” (53: 11) “Indeed he saw of the greatest signs of his Lord.” (53:18)

Is this not an good example of the vision of heart? And which have nothing to do with verse 6:103 of visions?

Seeing with a heart is more of a metaphorical seeing, I was thinking more along the lines of:

1. Seeing with a naked eye of any physical creature

2. Seeing with a device like a telescope, magnifier, glasses, infrared, etc.

3. Seeing via spiritual means (angels, jann, etc.)

Exactly.

Edited by Zufa
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Seeing with a heart is more of a metaphorical seeing, I was thinking more along the lines of:

1. Seeing with a naked eye of any physical creature

2. Seeing with a device like a telescope, magnifier, glasses, infrared, etc.

3. Seeing via spiritual means (angels, jann, etc.)

Allah cannot be comprehended through the means above.

The points you've listed are not "different visions" rather one vision through different "means".

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(wasalam)

The points you've listed are not "different visions" rather one vision through different "means".

Hence the term الأَبْصَارُ ; BaSaRa means to see or witness, al-Absar means multiple means in my opinion (as reflected in Shi'i ahadith on seeing Allah) the points I've posted are means of BaSaR.

On a side note, 53:18 uses a different term:

(bismillah)

لَقَدْ رَأَى مِنْ آيَاتِ رَبِّهِ الْكُبْرَى

ra'aa

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I am not aware of such a hadith, but taking such a hadith literally would go against the position of Ahlul Sunnah on this issue. I believe in exactly what I clarified earlier: the believers will be able to see Allah in the afterlife, but the how of the vision is not specified and cannot and does not negate any of the attributes of Allah (or tawhid).

(salam)

Jazakumullah khayran for your response

Wassalam

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(salam),

Actually the verse says الأَبْصَارُ which means "absar" or "visions" with a plural. I think it is in reference to different types of visions, not just the naked eye, but vision itself cannot comprehend Him.

Couldn't that just mean visions of different people, rather than different types of visions of one person? :unsure:

There's another verse which contradicts the Sunni view:

وَلَمَّا جَاء مُوسَى لِمِيقَاتِنَا وَكَلَّمَهُ رَبُّهُ قَالَ رَبِّ أَرِنِي أَنظُرْ إِلَيْكَ قَالَ لَن تَرَانِي وَلَـكِنِ انظُرْ إِلَى الْجَبَلِ فَإِنِ اسْتَقَرَّ مَكَانَهُ فَسَوْفَ تَرَانِي فَلَمَّا تَجَلَّى رَبُّهُ لِلْجَبَلِ جَعَلَهُ دَكًّا وَخَرَّ موسَى صَعِقًا فَلَمَّا أَفَاقَ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ تُبْتُ إِلَيْكَ وَأَنَاْ أَوَّلُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ {143}

When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me... (7:143)

wa (salam)

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(salam),

Couldn't that just mean visions of different people, rather than different types of visions of one person? :unsure:

There's another verse which contradicts the Sunni view:

وَلَمَّا جَاء مُوسَى لِمِيقَاتِنَا وَكَلَّمَهُ رَبُّهُ قَالَ رَبِّ أَرِنِي أَنظُرْ إِلَيْكَ قَالَ لَن تَرَانِي وَلَـكِنِ انظُرْ إِلَى الْجَبَلِ فَإِنِ اسْتَقَرَّ مَكَانَهُ فَسَوْفَ تَرَانِي فَلَمَّا تَجَلَّى رَبُّهُ لِلْجَبَلِ جَعَلَهُ دَكًّا وَخَرَّ موسَى صَعِقًا فَلَمَّا أَفَاقَ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ تُبْتُ إِلَيْكَ وَأَنَاْ أَوَّلُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ {143}

When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me... (7:43)

wa (salam)

Which translation is that? Some of the other translations indicate that this verse may actually apply only to this life and not the next. They also don't use such strong language as "By no means canst thou see Me". By the way, you quoted 7:143, not 7:43.

The additional point to be made about the verse above revolves around the infallibility of Sayyiduna Musa (as). Since he is a prophet, he is infallible at least in the period of his risala (and therefore in the transmission of the message). So, how could he ask Allah (swt) if he could Him? It implies Sayyiduna Musa's (as) ignorance and amount to a mistake in his own understanding of the message that he is supposed to transmit.

How do you reconcile the following verses with the Shi'i interpretation of 7:143?

075.022

YUSUFALI: Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty);-

PICKTHAL: That day will faces be resplendent,

SHAKIR: (Some) faces on that day shall be bright,

075.023

YUSUFALI: Looking towards their Lord;

PICKTHAL: Looking toward their Lord;

SHAKIR: Looking to their Lord.

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Which translation is that? Some of the other translations indicate that this verse may actually apply only to this life and not the next. They also don't use such strong language as "By no means canst thou see Me". By the way, you quoted 7:143, not 7:43.

It says lan taraani. lan is a negation of the verb, but which negates the future. So, "you will not see Me", even "you will never see Me".

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(salam),

^ Oops.

That is Yusuf Ali's translation.

Even Shakir's translations reads:

...He said: You cannot (bear to) see Me...

The additional point to be made about the verse above revolves around the infallibility of Sayyiduna Musa . Since he is a prophet, he is infallible at least in the period of his risala (and therefore in the transmission of the message). So, how could he ask Allah (swt) if he could Him? It implies Sayyiduna Musa's ignorance and amount to a mistake in his own understanding of the message that he is supposed to transmit.

The point is that it wasn't a sin. Had it been a sin, Prophet Musa's (as) request would have been reprehended. It was accepted, and there was no reprehension. It is normal for a person to want to look at who he's worshipping. However, Allah showed him that his Lord can not be seen by the eyes.

A tradition of Imam Ali (as) clarifies this. He was asked whether he has seen his Lord, and he replied he does not worship One who he has not seen. Then he goes on to describe how he 'sees' Him.

As for 75:23, 'looking to Him' does not mean 'looking at Him'; it means: they are waiting in optimistic anticipation for His rewards

wa (salam)

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(salam)

Another trait in Shi'i tawhid is the idea that we can never understand Allah. He is completely unlike His creation; so to discuss, contemplate, or assume anything about Allah that isn't from what He established, is a sin. He is non-comprehensible, not defined by human understanding.

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن محمد بن يحيى الخثعمي عن عبد الرحمن بن عتيك القصير قال: سألت أبا جعفر (عليه السلام) عن شئ من الصفة فرفع يده إلى السماء ثم قال: تعالى الجبار، من تعاطي ما ثم هلك

`Ali b. Ibrahim from his father from Ibn Abi `Umayr from Muhammad b. Yahya al-Khath`ami from Abd ur-Rahman b. `Atik al-Qasir. He said: I aske Abu Ja`far (as) about something from the attributes. He raised his hand to the sky and then said: Exalted be the Almighty, one who pursues what is beyond (this) is destroyed.

محمد بن يعقوب، عن علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن عبدالرحمن ابن أبي نجران قال: سألت أبا جعفر (عليه السلام) عن التوحيد فقلت: أتوهم شيئا؟ فقال:

نعم، غير معقول ولا محدود، فما وقع وهمك عليه من شئ فهو خلافه، لا يشبهه شئ ولا تدركه الاوهام، كيف تدركه الاوهام وهو خلاف ما يعقل، وخلاف ما يتصور في الاوهام؟! إنما يتوهم شئ غير معقول ولا محدود

Muhammad b. Ya`qub from `Ali b. Ibrahim from Muhammad b. `Isa from `Abd ur-Rahman b. Abi Najran. He said: I asked Abu Ja`far (as) about Tawhid. So I said: Can I think (of Him) as a thing? So he said:

Yes, non-intelligible (ghayr ma`qul) and not defined (ghayr mahdud , not dilimited). For what your thought (wahm) falls upon of something then He is different (from) it. Nothing resembles Him and thoughts do not understand Him (or, reach Him, comprehend Him). How can thoughts understand Him and He is the different from what is intellected, and different from what is imagined in the thoughts? Only He is thought of ( as ) a thing non-intelligible and not defined.

محمد بن إسماعيل، عن الفضل بن شاذان، عن صفوان بن يحيى، عن منصور ابن حازم قال: قلت لابي عبدالله (عليه السلام): إني ناظرت قوما فقلت لهم: إن الله جل جلاله أجل وأعز وأكرم من أن يعرف بخلقه بل العباد يعرفون بالله، فقال: رحمك الله.

Muhammad b. Isma`il from al-Fadhl b. Shadhan from Safwan b. Yahya from Mansur b. Hazim. He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah (as): I have debated with a people, so I said to them: Verily Allah, jalla jalalahi, is more glorious, more mighty, and more noble that He be known via His Creation. Rather, His servants are known via Allah. So He said: May Allah have mercy on you.

So conversations on where Allah is (whether he is pantheistic, panentheistic, separate completely), where His throne is, a physical nature, His structure, is strictly forbidden.

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(salam),

Couldn't that just mean visions of different people, rather than different types of visions of one person? :unsure:

There's another verse which contradicts the Sunni view:

æóáóãóøÇ ÌóÇÁ ãõæÓóì áöãöíÞóÇÊöäóÇ æóßóáóøãóåõ ÑóÈõøåõ ÞóÇáó ÑóÈöø ÃóÑöäöí ÃóäÙõÑú Åöáóíúßó ÞóÇáó áóä ÊóÑóÇäöí æóáóÜßöäö ÇäÙõÑú Åöáóì ÇáúÌóÈóáö ÝóÅöäö ÇÓúÊóÞóÑóø ãóßóÇäóåõ ÝóÓóæúÝó ÊóÑóÇäöí ÝóáóãóøÇ ÊóÌóáóøì ÑóÈõøåõ áöáúÌóÈóáö ÌóÚóáóåõ ÏóßðøÇ æóÎóÑóø ãæÓóì ÕóÚöÞðÇ ÝóáóãóøÇ ÃóÝóÇÞó ÞóÇáó ÓõÈúÍóÇäóßó ÊõÈúÊõ Åöáóíúßó æóÃóäóÇú Ãóæóøáõ ÇáúãõÄúãöäöíäó {143}

When Moses came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, He said: "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." Allah said: "By no means canst thou see Me... (7:143)

wa (salam)

Your interpretation and understanding goes against Ahl al-Sunnah which is indeed true. The verses states 'You will not see Me' and NOT 'I can't (never) be seen' which would negate 'ru'yah' completely, hence 'you will not see Me' refers to Dunyâ and not Ahl al-Djannah.

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The point is that it wasn't a sin. Had it been a sin, Prophet Musa's (as) request would have been reprehended. It was accepted, and there was no reprehension. It is normal for a person to want to look at who he's worshipping. However, Allah showed him that his Lord can not be seen by the eyes.

A tradition of Imam Ali (as) clarifies this. He was asked whether he has seen his Lord, and he replied he does not worship One who he has not seen. Then he goes on to describe how he 'sees' Him.

As for 75:23, 'looking to Him' does not mean 'looking at Him'; it means: they are waiting in optimistic anticipation for His rewards

1) We agree that it wasn't a sin. However, the impossibility of that type of vision could be just restricted to this life and not the next. Sayyiduna Musa's (as) actions not amounting to a sin can be interpreted to support both interpretations.

2) Other translations say "towards" in place of "to". Someone else with a better command of Arabic can give us the intricacies of this verse. Although I can logically follow that interpretation of the verse, it is hard for me to accept it because it may denying other meanings of the verse.

3) Like I said, I don't see a conflict between the Shi'i and Sunni positions. The Sunnis affirm that the believers will be able to see Allah (swt) in the hereafter, but do not specify the details of the vision with the exception that it cannot and will not negate any of Allah's attributes or tawhid. The Shi'i believe that Allah cannot be (physically) seen at all (and any references to the vision of Allah or seeing Allah must be taken metaphorically or figuratively). Either way, we all affirm the vision of Allah in a way that does not negate tawhid or any of His attributes, which is the most important thing.

4) The Sunni position keeps up with the trend of the scholars amongst the Salaf (ra) of affirming enough, but never expounding on (for fear of negating something Allah may have intended for Himself in a verse, which is a sin).

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Here is a Sunni site with 15 or more translation plus the literal translation too!

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/7/143/

And when Moses came to Our appointed time/appointed time or place, and his Lord conversed/spoke (to) him, he said: "My Lord show me/make me understand, I look/see to you." He said: "You will never/not see me, and but/however look to the mountain , so if it settled/established/affixed (in) its place/position, so you will/shall see me." So when his Lord uncovered/revealed/shined to the mountain, He made it crushed/destroyed/leveled/flattened, and Moses fell down fainting from thunderous noise/thunderstruck, so when he recovered/woke up, he said: "Your praise/glory, I repented to you, and I am first (of) the believers."

The above is the literal translation from the quoted site!

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Here is a Sunni site with 15 or more translation plus the literal translation too!

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/7/143/

The above is the literal translation from the quoted site!

Nobody is disputing that or other translations (anymore). However, the verse can be interpreted to meant this or the next life. That's where the discussion is headed now.

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