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In the Name of God بسم الله

Discussion On Ibn Taymiyyah's Views

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(bismillah)

(salam)

many thanks bro lotfilms, this is the second time i am thanking you as much

have you made your amends by the way, and in the manner which is only right

by apologizing to the thread

(wasalam)

It is easier to advice others by quoting the Quran and hadiths right and left. But it is difficult to make amends by apologizing to the thread!

Waiting to be seen!

It is rather easier to preach than to act!

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(bismillah)

(salam)

(bismillah)

(salam)

many thanks bro lotfilms, this is the second time i am thanking you as much

have you made your amends by the way, and in the manner which is only right

by apologizing to the thread

(wasalam)

The only thing i apologize for is for saying that "اعرض" meant "confirmed". Rather, it should be "overlooked", or even "reject". And this is because i was thinking of the verse "عَرَّفَ بَعْضَهُ وَأَعْرَضَ عَنْ بَعْضٍ" in my head for another thread, so i accidentally mixed the two (عَرَّفَ and أَعْرَضَ) up. So that i apologize for.

Otherwise, i did nothing wrong. If you recall, i emphasized that i would need to see the full context and not some small screenshot. And i was careful to say that "أصح" could mean "more" or "most" depending on the context. And if you recall, i translated it as both ways when you asked me to.

But you didn't read my word carefully and instead read what you wanted and accused me of purposefully trying to conspire against you and calling me a stooge, a dhalim, a munafiq, and God knows what else.

was salam

Edited by lotfilms
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The Holy Quran is very clear that, Don’t start hostilities, as God does not love aggressors, but those who fight you, fight them in the way of God, (190), ....

Either you love imam Hussain (as) or you love the nasibis (la)!

As the saying goes, "You can't have your cake and eat it too!"

Otherwise, i did nothing wrong. If you recall, i emphasized that i would need to see the full context and not some small screenshot. And i was careful to say that "ÃÕÍ" could mean "more" or "most" depending on the context. And if you recall, i translated both ways when you asked me to.

The Quranic verse you quoted was comparative rather then superlative. The verse said, "most people" and not "all people". The verse was comparing the most people to the whole of mankind!

You were told as such and still you didn't withdraw or make amends!

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(bismillah)

(salam)

The only thing i apologize for is for saying that "ÇÚÑÖ" meant "confirmed". Rather, it should be "overlooked", or even "reject". And this is because i was thinking of the verse "ÚóÑóøÝó ÈóÚúÖóåõ æóÃóÚúÑóÖó Úóäú ÈóÚúÖò" in my head for another thread, so i accidentally mixed the two (ÚóÑóøÝó and ÃóÚúÑóÖó) up. So that i apologize for.

Otherwise, i did nothing wrong. If you recall, i emphasized that i would need to see the full context and not some small screenshot. And i was careful to say that "ÃÕÍ" could mean "more" or "most" depending on the context. And if you recall, i translated it as both ways when you asked me to.

But you didn't read my word carefully and instead read what you wanted and accused me of purposefully trying to conspire against you and calling me a stooge, a dhalim, a munafiq, and God knows what else.

was salam

(bismillah)

(salam)

bro please don't do a bro botta on us for a second time

i know you are really impressed by him and that is a mild word

you are scared of him

you had all the words, you were told to read in context

and you mistranslated mawla as servant when you were fully aware of the context

why can't people be man enough to say i goofed up big time and may Allah forgive me

or else one is a munafiq of the highest order

but do tell me bro, what was the relevance of your post to this thread

forget it, just concentrate on the above

(wasalam)

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Really fun to see how retardayn help and support each other in their retardness.

Very true!

The Retarded Three Stooges supporting your Lord, meaning Botta!

Now, we have to make room for the fourth and the most retarded of the stooges!

Alleluyah! Alleluiah! Halleluiah! Hallelujah! Allaluiah!

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Very true!

The Retarded Three Stooges supporting your Lord, meaning Botta!

Now, we have to make room for the fourth and the most retarded of the stooges!

Alleluyah! Alleluiah! Halleluiah! Hallelujah! Allaluiah!

Subhân Allâh :lol:, actually with retardayn (arabic form of dual) I meant haidariam and you, and viola! the two retards (retardayn) just replied :)

Edited by Abu'l Fadl
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Subhân Allâh :lol:, actually with retardayn (arabic form of dual) I meant haidariam and you, and viola! the two retards (retardayn) just replied :)

Wow, you finally learned some Arabic and then trying to tell an Arab about singular, dual and plural!

How retarded can you be!

As, I said before!

Alleluyah! Alleluiah! Halleluiah! Hallelujah! Allaluiah!

Your Lord, meaning Botta has lost all the creditability and so his all four stooges!

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(bismillah)

(salam)

I am going to summarise here the discussion so far and the arguments of Bro Botta which have been debunked in that he has been dishonest in his translation and understanding of the scans and the pages around it and has exonerated the positions of,

Ayatollah Kamal Hyderi

Bro Mo

Bro Aladdin

and Allah(swt) saved me of what I testified for him(Bro Botta)

In that yes Ibn Taymiya did authenticate the Hadith and yes some other scholars have also considered it weak because of unscientific reasons as pointed out by Bro Mo

But Alhamdulillah Allah(swt) is greater and Ibn Taymiya’s authentication of the Hadith is a witness against him as was Firoun’s(la) raising of Musa(as). I wish my bros read the Holy Quran more

1. Dishonest Translation

a.Bro Botta translated the scan dishonestly in full knowledge of his dishonesty or else he is lacking in Arabic Language skills – refer to earlier posts. The people who have

thus far supported him have been dishonest too and Bro Ninja stands guilty and as are his other appeasers like bro lotfilms

b.The scan is essentially talking of weakening the Hadith of Ali(AS) and there are 2 if not more pages of this rubbish – a fact which he tried to deny with his technical

terminology also known as jargon

c.Bro Botta being elusive when cornered and tried in vain to skirt the issues

2. Ibn Taymiya weakening the Hadith of Ali(as)

Ibn Taymiya did infact spend those 2 or more pages in weakening the Hadith of Ali(as). The book can be checked online by bros well versed and native speakers of Arabic Language.

3. Mutawatir Hadith

a.Bro Botta’s lack of understanding of matn especially when earlier scholars have understood and used the other Ahadith in support – refer to earlier posts. His denial

that it is mutawatir and his dumbfoundness as to why one of his great scholars termed it mutawatir

i. Hadith of Ali(as) by Zir and co

ii. Hadith of Ali(as) by Um Salama

iii. Hadith of Ali(as) by Buraida

iv. Hadith of Ali(as) by ibn Umar

4. Ansar Hadith a Fabrication

a. Did Umar not know of this Hadith when he beat the Ansar at Saqifa

i. Shows that this Hadith was a later fabrication in spite of a maybe solid chain, but then that was what was the job of the fabricators and that is what they got paid for

b. Did Abu Bakr not know of this Hadith and corrected Umar in showing love for the Ansar

c. We all know for a fact that all of the Ansar were not to be in the loved category. It can never be an open blanket coverage

I guess I have covered all, and that about sums it up

Kindly spend some time and read all pages time permitting

Bros’ Botta and Ninja and lotfilms

I have nothing personal against you and it is now upto you both to correct your wrongs and repent before Allah(swt), and it shall all be hunky dory between us. This here is only an academic discussion so that perhaps Allah(swt) might show us the way of his Hidaya. One of the ways of coming back into His(swt) folds is admitting your wrongs

I have stated my position about the Salafi brothers long before this discussion began that they are some of the most dishonest people I have ever met

and I add here that Sufi brothers are some of the most confused people I have ever met - imagine riding in 2 boats going in opposite directions

(wasalam)

ps. to bring from 90 to 80 is weakening for the short of logic bros

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Subhanallah, look how you insist on exposing people ^

If you fail to see that both translations could have worked in the small screenshot you gave me, then there's nothing more that i can say.

Had i been given the full context, it would have been different. And i told you this.

Had i been dishonest, i would have said "it ONLY means most", but i was very careful with my words and tried to remain as neutral as possible because i didn't have the context nor do i have his book.

was salam

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.... it and has exonerated the positions of,

Ayatollah Kamal Hyderi

Bro Mo

Bro Aladdin

Salam brother,

The only credit goes to you. You kept this thread when everyone had abundant it. You kept on it until you proved the right and haqq under extreme pressure and ridicule.

May Allah increase you in your knowledge and whatever you desire. May Allah grant you good in this life and hereafter.

Amin Ya'Rabbi!

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Subhanallah, look how you insist on exposing people ^

If you fail to see that both translations could have worked in the small screenshot you gave me, then there's nothing more that i can say.

Had i been given the full context, it would have been different. And i told you this.

Had i been dishonest, i would have said "it ONLY means most", but i was very careful with my words and tried to remain as neutral as possible because i didn't have the context nor do i have his book.

was salam

(bismillah)

(salam)

bro please stop insulting our intelligence and your own dignity

i will need to put up your posts also

you are lying bro, you had been given all the facts and told to read before the said line and yet you choose

to misinterpret

please stop it, you are sinking so low in my eyes bro,

please for your own sake

(wasalam)

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A few comments should be made about Haideriam's conclusions:

1. Dishonest Translation

a.Bro Botta translated the scan dishonestly in full knowledge of his dishonesty or else he is lacking in Arabic Language skills – refer to earlier posts. The people who have

thus far supported him have been dishonest too and Bro Ninja stands guilty and as are his other appeasers like bro lotfilms

b.The scan is essentially talking of weakening the Hadith of Ali(AS) and there are 2 if not more pages of this rubbish – a fact which he tried to deny with his technical

terminology also known as jargon

c.Bro Botta being elusive when cornered and tried in vain to skirt the issues

After admitting that I made a mistake with context, Haideriam accepted my apology for dragging on the argument for so long without being certain about the context. Haideriam accepted that I am fallible and that it was an honest mistake. He then said, "inshallah you are good and made an honest mistake." However, after Wellwisher asked me about my thoughts on Kamal Al-Haideri and his arguments about Ibn Taymiyah, I implied that it is most likely because he made a mistake and didn't read the whole book. Haideriam, emotionally hurt by my accusation, promised to expose me for holding this position, then changed his view once again, rejected my intentions and claimed that my translation was dishonest.

2. Ibn Taymiya weakening the Hadith of Ali(as)

Ibn Taymiya did infact spend those 2 or more pages in weakening the Hadith of Ali(as). The book can be checked online by bros well versed and native speakers of Arabic Language.

Ibn Taymiyah did no such thing. During the course of the next two pages he speaks of the following things:

He speaks of the signs of nifaaq. He says that there is no doubt that whoever loves Ali for Allah, with an amount that he deserves for Allah, then it is indeed a sign of his faith. The same can be applied to the ansaar, and whoever hates Ali and the ansaar for their faith in Allah, His Prophet (pbuh), and their jihad in the name of Allah, then he is a munafiq. Then, on the next page (149), Ibn Taymiyah weakens the hadith of Jabir, "We did not know the hypocrites, during the time of Ali (raa), except through their hatred towards Ali." Ibn Taymiyah then argues that Allah (swt) includes several verses in Suratul Tawba that shows the signs of the hypocrites and none of those signs had anything to do with hating Ali. He then brings up a narration by Ibn Mas'ud in Saheeh Muslim which speaks about one of the signs of the munafiqeen and implies that they were known since they would avoid praying in the masjid. On the next page (151), Ibn Taymiyah talks about the Rafidha and how they display the signs of the munafiqeen. On page 155, he quotes a hadith by Ibn Umar that speaks of four signs of hypocrisy. Then he says that one cannot say that hating Ali is the only sign of nifaaq. Yet, what one can say is that hating Ali is one of the signs of nifaaq, for those that know what Ali has done when it comes to his faith and his jihad, for whoever hates him for that is a hypocrite. Then Ibn Taymiyah speaks about the position of the ansaar and how they, as a whole, are better than Ali. However, they are not better than the muhajireen as a whole. Then Ibn Taymiyah speaks about those that hated Omar and how they are worse than those that hated Ali.

Haideriam. You have not read the text. Why do you assume that Ibn Taymiyah weakens the hadith when you haven't read any of the text?

3. Mutawatir Hadith

a.Bro Botta’s lack of understanding of matn especially when earlier scholars have understood and used the other Ahadith in support – refer to earlier posts. His denial

that it is mutawatir and his dumbfoundness as to why one of his great scholars termed it mutawatir

i. Hadith of Ali(as) by Zir and co

ii. Hadith of Ali(as) by Um Salama

iii. Hadith of Ali(as) by Buraida

iv. Hadith of Ali(as) by ibn Umar

Haideriam isn't aware that tawatur has two forms. The first is tawatur lafthi which is extremely rare since most hadiths that have similar meanings usually have different meanings. The second is tawatur ma'nawi which means that the meaning is mutawatir. Unfortunately for Haideriam, he doesn't have access to any of the four hadiths that he quoted above. Furthermore, he isn't aware of what those hadiths include, for if he knew what they included, he wouldn't have brought them up since they are all different in meaning than the hadith of Ali in Saheeh Muslim.

4. Ansar Hadith a Fabrication

a. Did Umar not know of this Hadith when he beat the Ansar at Saqifa

i. Shows that this Hadith was a later fabrication in spite of a maybe solid chain, but then that was what was the job of the fabricators and that is what they got paid for

b. Did Abu Bakr not know of this Hadith and corrected Umar in showing love for the Ansar

c. We all know for a fact that all of the Ansar were not to be in the loved category. It can never be an open blanket coverage

The hadith of the love of the ansar has a few authentic chains and isn't authentic only because of shawahid. To those that are reading this, I cannot attempt to respond to an argument that is this weak and stupid. No offense to Haideriam, but he's just trying to throw anything at me no matter how weak it is.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

bro botta

shall we deal with each of those points one by one

as just trying to sort out an earlier point took so many pages

bro did you pay attention to bro abdul qaim's posts in the other thread of advice

they were really good

also bro you are almost like a child who will try to win all matches fairly or unfairly - spolit sport

you keep coming back to the topic with a behaviour which is in the same fashion - childish

rather than try and see the whole and accept that your premise could be wrong

you are stuck in the trees of ilm ur rijal, ilm ul hadith and one post at a time

the vision tends to stop there, too myopic for your own good and progress

let me give you a small example of you having accepted defeat before you even started

look at my first summary

look at your first apologetic and weak response above

and by the same methodology i shall explain to you as to how your translation was dishonest and not lack of understanding or reading out of context.

i just wanted to save you some honour and respect which even bro mo tried to do in the other twin thread, but looks like you have just not grown up enough

do you know what weakenig means bro, for in your posts it looks like you are not familiar withn the word

maybe bro ninja might bear me out on this one at least

dr tahir ul qadri in one of his speeches at houston at the end of the speech asked a naib chief of jamaat e islami to say the concluding dua

the person came on the stage and started crying, i have not seen it but a bro mentioned it and dr tahir ul qadri said it was one of the houston speeches

after crying for a long time this person said that today the bugz e ali has left my heart and i am so grateful to Allah(swt) for it

and whatever rest

there are subtle messages in all this for you bro, please ponder and take good advice

(wasalam)

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I'd also like to add, for those that haven't read the first few pages, that Al-Thahabi said the following about the hadith in Siyar A'alam Al-Nubala' under the biography of Yahya bin Abdul A'atham (3/4177) Baitul Afkar Al-Duwaliya:

Rough translation:

"...and the meaning of loving is that loving Ali is a part of faith and hating him is a part of hypocrisy, and faith has many different layers, and hypocrisy has many different layers. No sane person would say: Simply loving Ali makes a person one of complete faith, and simply hating him makes one a complete hypocrite. For he who loves him (Ali) and hates Abu Bakr is in the position of those that hate him (Ali) and loved Abu Bakr. Hating them is a falsehood and hypocrisy and loving them is truth and faith. The hadith is in Saheeh Muslim."

This statement is significant because this is what Ibn Taymiyah spends most of his time speaking about in the pages above in Minhaj Al-Sunnah. The Shias of this thread, on the other hand, hold firmly to the statement made by Al-Thahabi that this hadith is mutawatir.

Holding onto this statement for Shias is a problem since it contradicts their initial argument, which is that Ibn Taymiyah weakens the hadith with his interpretation of it. If that is the case, then the same is applied to Al-Thahabi's interpretation, since it is the same as Ibn Taymiyah's. Due to this, the Shias are left with two options:

1- Accept Ibn Taymiyah's and Al-Thahabi's interpretation of the hadith and both of their authentications.

2- Reject both of their interpretations and authentications.

As for Ibn Taymiyah's authentication of the hadith, it can be found in Minhaj Al-Sunnah 8/420:

As for the manaqib of Ali in the sihah: The most authentic are what was said during Khaibar: "I will give the raya to a man that loves Allah and his prophet, and who is loved by Allah and his Prophet." And his saying in Tabuk: "Wouldn't you be satisfied being in the postion of Harun to Musa, except that there is not a prophet after me." And his entering in the hadith of mubahala and al-kisa'a, and him saying, "You are from me and I am from you." And none of that is for him alone. And the hadith: "Only a mu'min loves me and only a munafiq hates me." And the hadith of the shura which was brought up earlier, and the statement of Omar that the Prophet (pbuh) died while being satisfied of Uthman, Ali, Talha, Al-Zubair, Sa'ad, and Abdulrahman.

------------

Another thing that readers should note is that Haideriam didn't respond to my arguments and it was him that brought up all those points together in post #220. It wasn't in my intentions to drown him with arguments. However, he shouldn't have any trouble breaking down my arguments since I'm such a childish amateur.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

like i might have mentioned earlier bro

you only see things in black and white, so the two points you mention of both being either fully authentic or fully false are not well developed

secondly what you are trying to prove is some sort of a virtue for D wherin

A is wrong

B is wrong

C is wrong

therefore D being wrong is a virtue for there have been others wrong before him

a wrong is a wrong bro, others being wrong does not make you less wrong

this is going in the opposite direction of weakening that is strengthening

that is why i said bro do you understand what weakening means

how can you not understand such a simple logic bro

it baffles me

(wasalam)

(bismillah)

(salam)

the thread itself is a testament of not understanding a single point let alone multiple points,

and the carrying of books or quoting them is not a testament to understanding them

(wasalam)

Edited by haideriam
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I'd also like to add, for those that haven't read the first few pages, that Al-Thahabi said the following about the hadith in Siyar A'alam Al-Nubala' under the biography of Yahya bin Abdul A'atham (3/4177) Baitul Afkar Al-Duwaliya:

Rough translation:

"...and the meaning of loving is that loving Ali is a part of faith and hating him is a part of hypocrisy, and faith has many different layers, and hypocrisy has many different layers. No sane person would say: Simply loving Ali makes a person one of complete faith, and simply hating him makes one a complete hypocrite. For he who loves him (Ali) and hates Abu Bakr is in the position of those that hate him (Ali) and loved Abu Bakr. Hating them is a falsehood and hypocrisy and loving them is truth and faith. The hadith is in Saheeh Muslim."

I'm not interested in entering into a debate about ibn Taymiyyah as I regard it as a fruitless effort.

What interests me, however, is Al-Thahabi's interpretation quoted by Lord Botta. I thought it was as-Shi'ah - the Rawaafidh - who are constantly criticised for their reliance on ta'weel when interpreting the Qur'an and ahadeeth. Clearly, the Prophet (pbuh) did not say, "To love 'Ali and hate Abu Bakr is nifaaq.". Had he wanted to include other companions he would have made a more general statement.

Even the Isma'ilis would have to marvel at the use of hermeneutics in this case. Talk about batini ta'weel at its finest ...

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Sallamun Alaykum

as aladdin said brother haider u deserve all the credit May Allah (AW) bless u and lord botta also for discussing.

i just noticed something about me not translating an underlined text i dont know what that is about.

i think the best way for u brother haider and lord botta is to agree that u will not accept scholistic interpretation of the hadith or its narrators becuase frankly we are not speaking from a shia or salafi point of view. we are talking from a intellectual logical Honest down to earthy level therefore if a scholar makes a mistake in his interpretation then discuss it. if you both agree to this rule then in my view you will get closer to what you both agree on.

Anyway i apologise again for not being here regularly to discuss th issue with u brothers.

ws wr wb

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I'm not interested in entering into a debate about ibn Taymiyyah as I regard it as a fruitless effort.

What interests me, however, is Al-Thahabi's interpretation quoted by Lord Botta. I thought it was as-Shi'ah - the Rawaafidh - who are constantly criticised for their reliance on ta'weel when interpreting the Qur'an and ahadeeth. Clearly, the Prophet (pbuh) did not say, "To love 'Ali and hate Abu Bakr is nifaaq.". Had he wanted to include other companions he would have made a more general statement.

Even the Isma'ilis would have to marvel at the use of hermeneutics in this case. Talk about batini ta'weel at its finest ...

(bismillah)

(salam)

bro abdul qaim

your posts both amaze me and humble me at the same time,

mashallah bro

and then bro botta still does not understand what weakening means

is A++ down to A+ weakening or not

(wasalam)

ps. bros mo and aladdin

you are being generous with your younger bro, may Allah(swt) bless you both

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^ Are you saying that Ibn Taymiyah weakened the hadith from (Mutawatir) to (Saheeh)?

(bismillah)

(salam)

we are not learning much are we bro botta

you know what happened the last time you played these word games with me

additionally your post is pointing to two things

that you are beginning to realise what weakening is

and you have lost your enthusiasm to defend ibn taymiya for you are beginning to feel that there is something amiss here

(wasalam)

Edited by haideriam
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So, after doing some research, I've changed my position on ibn Taymiyyah. Nothing every sticks to him, not a single allegation made against him. I hardly agree with him on anything, but may Allah bless him for his sincere efforts.

Care to elaborate on the blue part?

As for the red part... You still respect him even after tonnes of evidence and proofs have been laid out by people here that he did nothing more than demonize, antagonize and aggravate us Shias by attacking the very Holy Family of the Prophet we hold in high regards and esteem, not to mention the sanctioning of violence toward Shias as a whole...

I'm really disappointed here brother...

(wasalam)

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Care to elaborate on the blue part?

As for the red part... You still respect him even after tonnes of evidence and proofs have been laid out by people here that he did nothing more than demonize, antagonize and aggravate us Shias by attacking the very Holy Family of the Prophet we hold in high regards and esteem, not to mention the sanctioning of violence toward Shias as a whole...

I'm really disappointed here brother...

(wasalam)

I was towards him before, but I'm just going to keep silent. There are certain things about his scholarship that disturb me. Furthermore, why is it that he's like teflon that nothing ever sticks to him? If someone raises a criticism against him, his supporters deny all of it, his opponents affirm all of it and the neutral parties do a bit of both. Who is this man? When nothing sticks, that's when I become worried.

You misread that "praise". There is an implication there in how it is worded.

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I was towards him before, but I'm just going to keep silent. There are certain things about his scholarship that disturb me. Furthermore, why is it that he's like teflon that nothing ever sticks to him? If someone raises a criticism against him, his supporters deny all of it, his opponents affirm all of it and the neutral parties do a bit of both. Who is this man? When nothing sticks, that's when I become worried.

Bingo! Precisely why I think it's futile to discuss him ...

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • Veteran Member

(bismillah)

(salam)

i am posting extracts of posts that show that bro botta was dishonest in his translation of the underlined especially when he had the full scan and the book. and was told time and again to refer to the paragraph above for a proper context.

you will notice that at one point or a few he stopped to challenge the alternate translation provided which is something he does not do when challenged unless he is wrong

and when he finally found out in another thread that i was not fluent in arabic then started to challenge the translation vehemently

this was his attempt to hoodwink all and as you will notice his questions are all aimed at just one thing and that is to get a particular response for a quick finale.

he tried to do the same hoodwinking game with bro mo on another debate video and bro mo had to say to him twice that who are you trying to kid bro botta

and bro botta withdrew quietly, someone can probably remember and pull that thread

as it is his aim to save the attrition to his creed and possibly gain new recruits from amongst the ahle sunnah bros

so is it my duty to safeguard and let my bros beware of the antics of the salafia/wahabia

and by god i don't mean it in a bad way but these salafi bros are the most dishonest lot i have ever come across

this is to warn others that they should only take things from him with a pinch of salt

where i feel necessary in the text to say/clarify/add something i am going to write it in blue

Posted Lord Botta 06 April 2010 - 10:17 AM

1- Ibn Taymiyah holds the view that this hadith is authentic and is one of the most authentic hadiths regarding the fadha'il of Ali. He says so on the same page.

2- This is actually the view of Al-Daraqutni in Al-Tatabu' (#142 Darul Kutub Al-ilmiyah). Ibn Taymiyah is just pointing to his opinion and stating that the hadith of the Ansar is stronger than the hadith of Ali. Yet, as I've stated in the point above. Ibn Taymiyah believes that the hadith of Ali is authentic.

reading page and not line

Posted Lord Botta 09 April 2010 - 06:13 PM

I swear by Allah that I've checked the book. I've mentioned the pages from the copy I've got at home.

he has checked the book, how is it possible to miss the context

Posted mo87_11014: 09 April 2010 - 09:57 PM

bro its the same book thats why im surprised the things lord botta is saying it seems he hasnt even read it but he says he has i just want to see where he understood ibn taymia authenticating and making it the most authentic and showing it is the fathail of Imam Ali when he spends over 2 pages going round and round trying to disaprove it then calling it a lie.

Posted mo87_11014 :10 April 2010 - 01:31 AM

Ibn Taymia states in page 147-148

it is certain that the prophet said it (regarding the hadith about ansar however regarding the hadith some have doubted it.

Sayed Kamal: Now here first he doesnt mention who doubted it just says some people doubt (which ofcourse would be unacceptable as evidance) also how can anyone doubt if it is saheeh Muslim.

Ibn Taymia further states:

and this is an individualistic approach from muslim and bukhari did not mention it purposly and the

hadeeth about ansar is more authentic than the hadith of Imam Ali

thats all he says.

lord botta all i can see is ibn taymia belittling the hadeeth where does he say it is:

Quote botta

1- Ibn Taymiyah holds the view that this hadith is authentic and is one of the most authentic hadiths regarding the fadha'il of Ali. He says so on the same page.

the online copy which i got from the sunni side i just noticed has a few cut words maybe it was removed from there please tell me where ibn taimya says that the hadeeth is one of the most authentic hadiths about the fathail of Imam Ali becuase it is clear he doubts this hadeeth in his statement that the hadeeth is more authentic than this one.

Posted Lord Botta :10 April 2010 - 07:03 AM

Resized to 92% (was 1024 x 492) - Click image to enlarge

Ayatollah Al-Haydari just never mentioned it. Look under his finger in the video when he flips the page back.

so bro botta is reading all for he can pick out what he wants to from the page

Posted Lord Botta :10 April 2010 - 07:12 AM

Questions to Mo:

1- Won't you agree that it was somewhat dishonest for him not to read Ibn Taymiyah's words to the audience?

trying to lead onto kamal hyderi being dishonest and bro botta being honest when it is the other way round

Posted mo87_11014:10 April 2010 - 11:08 AM

now brother please tell me where does ibn taymia say this:

Quote botta

1- Ibn Taymiyah holds the view that this hadith is authentic and is one of the most authentic hadiths regarding the fadha'il of Ali. He says so on the same page.

so you can see here that bro botta has read the full page but when he got caught out he makes the excuse that he did not read the para above

Posted Lord Botta :10 April 2010 - 01:15 PM

now brother please tell me where does ibn taymia say this:

Quote botta

1- Ibn Taymiyah holds the view that this hadith is authentic and is one of the most authentic hadiths regarding the fadha'il of Ali. He says so on the same page.

Can you not see the screenshot I've provided? Also go back to post #43 as well.

However, I do have some issues with him skipping the sentence where Ibn Taymiyah says that this is one of the most authentic hadith about Ali's merits.

trying to hurry before he gets caught out

Posted mo87_11014:10 April 2010 - 10:10 PM

that said the facts are as follows:

ibn taymia beleives the ansar hadith is more correct/more authentic than the ali hadith

he says there are some people that doubt it

he says only muslim individualy narrated it and bukhari purposly did not narrate it (this further adds doubt)

that said brother i never saw the statement where ibn taymia says it is one of the most important authentic hadiths and it is a fathl to imam ali the statements which you posted only mention him saying the ansar hadith is more correct than the ali hadith.

Posted Lord Botta : 11 April 2010 - 03:53 PM

Wallah, I don't know what to say. I've posted screenshots in the previous page and I've underlined them. The first screenshot explicitly implies that the hadith is authentic. If you cannot see this, then maybe it is because Allah doesn't want you to.

and you will see later that he has to go to some other page in possibly another volume to go for this explicit authentication. i will have to get this checked for i don't trust his translations anymore

Posted mo87_11014 :11 April 2010 - 08:27 PM

brother lord botta you did not say it is authentic u said he stated that it is one of the most authentic hadiths and a fathil to Imam Ali which he did not yes he cannot say it is not authentic as sayed kamal said however he never sayd it is the most authentic or a fathil as you said becuase if that were the case then he wouldnt doubt it so much with reasons which to be honest cannot be considered evidance.

Posted mo87_11014: 12 April 2010 - 03:06 PM

and also brother alladin he made a mistake and i think people relized it but its ok since i personally beleuve a student of knowledge can make simple mistakes whereas a scholar should be under scrutiny more and is liable for he says.

bro mo letting him off

Posted mo87_11014: 17 April 2010 - 04:56 PM

And The Hadith of Ansar we are certain that the prophet stated it and is more correct/authentic than the The Hadith of Ali some have doubted it (The Hadith) and Muslim Individually Narrated it while Bukhari Purposely did not narrate it”

Posted Lord Botta :19 April 2010 - 10:04 PM

First of all, it is important to see what Ibn Taymiyah has stated about this hadith himself.

http://s866.photobuc...li.jpg&newest=1 – same page 7/147 above

As we can see, the underlined words state that this hadith is one of the most solid hadiths that have been narrated about Ali. Ibn Taymiyah later on states that this hadith is only related by Muslim, and it is the narration of Adi bin Thabit, from Zirr bin Hubaish from Ali bin Abi Talib and that Al-Bukhari ignored this hadith. He also says that it is opposed to the hadith of the ansaar in which the scholars of the Saheeh have authenticated it, Al-Bukhari and others, and that it is agreed upon, and that the scholars know for a fact that the Prophet said it, while there are some doubts about the hadith of Ali.

Posted haideriam:29 April 2010 - 07:46 PM

Lord Botta, on 10 April 2010 - 01:15 PM, said:

Yet, in this hadith, he stated that it was one of the most authentic hadith regarding the virtues of Ali.

mo87_11014, on 12 April 2010 - 03:06 PM, said:

brother we will look at it in the discussion inshallah

and also brother alladin he made a mistake and i think people relized it but its ok since i personally beleuve a student of knowledge can

make simple mistakes whereas a scholar should be under scrutiny more and is liable for he says.

My 2 quotes above are stating that we could all make mistakes and bro mo absolved you of some of the criticism levelled against you but had

mentioned that he would be touching upon this later.

So now bro I ask you where is what you have so categorically stated

Posted haideriam:30 April 2010 - 07:54 PM keep on noting the time stamps and his non refutation/avoidance of the translation

just clarify 2 things for us in the meantime bro

where does he state that it is the one of most authentic hadith of the fadail of imam ali(as)?

Posted haideriam:30 April 2010 - 08:39 PM

Quote haideriam

where does he state that it is the one of most authentic hadith of the fadail of imam ali(as)?

Quote Botta

I've provided a picture in the previous thread. Please look it up yourself.

Quote haideriam

does he then write 2 pages trying to weaken it, or bringing out criticism regarding it?

Quote Botta

No, he doesn't attempt to weaken it. He just states that it is weaker than the hadith of the Ansar, but implies that it is still authentic.

he is now trying to change the translation

Posted haideriam:01 May 2010 - 11:49 PM

Quote Botta, on 06 April 2010 - 10:17 AM, said:

There are a couple of points I need to mention.

Ayatollah Al-Haydari's arguments against Ibn Taymiyah revolve around the following:

1- Ibn Taymiyah weakened the hadith of Muslim.

2- Ibn Taymiyah states that there are some scholars that have doubts regarding this hadith and didn't say who and he said that the hadith isn't mutafaqun alaihi and wasn't included by Al-Bukhari.

------------

Quick and simple response.

1- Ibn Taymiyah holds the view that this hadith is authentic and is one of the most authentic hadiths regarding the fadha'il of Ali. He says so on the same page.

2- This is actually the view of Al-Daraqutni in Al-Tatabu' (#142 Darul Kutub Al-ilmiyah). Ibn Taymiyah is just pointing to his opinion and stating that the hadith of the Ansar is stronger than the hadith of Ali.

Yet, as I've stated in the point above. Ibn Taymiyah believes that the hadith of Ali is authentic.

Quote Botta, on 10 April 2010 - 07:03 AM, said:

Resized to 92% (was 1024 x 492) - Click image to enlarge

Ayatollah Al-Haydari just never mentioned it. Look under his finger in the video when he flips the page back.

Quote Botta, on 10 April 2010 - 11:29 PM, said:

This, once again, implies that Ibn Taymiyah authenticated the hadith of Ali, the one in Saheeh Muslim, yet he weakens the hadith of Ibn Umar.

Quote aladdin, on 11 April 2010 - 11:08 AM, said:

that said brother i never saw the statement where ibn taymia says it is one of the most important authentic hadiths and it is a fathl to imam ali

the statements which you posted only mention him saying the ansar hadith is more correct than the ali hadith?

Quote Botta, on 11 April 2010 - 03:53 PM, said:

Wallah, I don't know what to say. I've posted screenshots in the previous page and I've underlined them. The first screenshot explicitly implies that the hadith is authentic. If you cannot see this,

then maybe it is because Allah doesn't want you to.

I have nothing more to say. May Allah guide us all.

Quote mo87_11014, on 11 April 2010 - 08:27 PM, said:

brother lord botta you did not say it is authentic u said he stated that it is one of the most authentic hadiths and a fathil to Imam Ali which he did not yes

he cannot say it is not authentic as sayed kamal said however he never sayd it is the most authentic or a fathil as you said becuase if that were the case then

he wouldnt doubt it so much with reasons which to be honest cannot be considered evidance.

bro, i am slightly left confused with the above

did you quote him wrong or not?

Posted Haideriam:02 May 2010 - 12:36 AM

Quote Botta, on 02 May 2010 - 12:23 AM, said:

I would still doubt the weak hadith.

1. you made a mistake in quoting him - kindly clarify?

Posted Lord Botta:02 May 2010 - 06:18 AM

Quote

1. you made a mistake in quoting him - kindly clarify?

Where did I make a mistake? What does the underlined statement in "red" say?

Posted haideriam:02 May 2010 - 07:04 PM

kindly be more forthcoming, inshallah it will help

please read the para before and then in the light of the 2 paras let me know what you understand by it for

you initially stated, " Ibn Taymiyah holds the view that this hadith is authentic and is one of the most authentic hadiths regarding the fadha'il of Ali."

and later you changed it to, "Ibn Taymiyah believes that the hadith of Ali is authentic." - submits would have been a better word in the light of the quran

and yet again, "The first screenshot explicitly implies that the hadith is authentic."

3 changes in 3 posts, and yet i have a feeling all 3 are incorrect,

Posted haideriam:02 May 2010 - 09:26 PM

Quote

you initially stated, " Ibn Taymiyah holds the view that this hadith is authentic and is one of the most authentic hadiths regarding the fadha'il of Ali."

and later you changed it to, "Ibn Taymiyah believes that the hadith of Ali is authentic." - submits would have been a better word in the light of the quran

and yet again, "The first screenshot explicitly implies that the hadith is authentic."

3 changes in 3 posts, and yet i have a feeling all 3 are incorrect,

Three changes? Subhanallah. Would you accuse me of changing my position if I said that "the sky is black" then that "the sky is dark" and that the "there is no light in the sky"???

Please, be direct and give us your opinion of what I underlined.

Posted haideriam02 May 2010 - 10:34 PM

if you read the 2 paras as i have said the whole meaning changes to what you had mistakenly thought

now after having read the whole what is it implying?

and does this then support the other brothers arguments in that he has spent 2 pages trying to weaken it or let us say creating doubt in his certainity

Posted Lord Botta:03 May 2010 - 01:05 PM

Quote haideriam

bro botta

the omission of , the most authentic hadith regarding the fadhail of ali ' is missing in your other quotes

and from, ' saying to believing to implying' is a big change

Same difference. You're taking word choices and blowing it way out of proportion.

Once again, I'd like you to interpret the statement of Ibn Taymiyah:

"This hadith is one of the most authentic (narrations) about Ali" (7/147)

What do you think this means? That Ibn Taymiyah believes that it is weak?

he found out from me in another thread that i am not fluent in arabic and hence a fresh challenge to the translation after an abscence of so many days of even mildly trying to defend his translation

Posted haideriam:03 May 2010 - 01:56 PM

read the para before about the hadith of the ansar and then link it up

Posted haideriam:05 May 2010 - 01:16 PM

and after you have answered the above question

then in the view of ibn taymiya the hadith of the ansar is solid and authentic and more healthier than the hadith about ali(as)

Posted haideriam:05 May 2010 - 11:21 PM

i had made mention of quite a few things along the way

1. read para before

2. where most and fadail are written

it is stating as bro mo and aladdin have pointed out above, just the underlined bit

“And the hadith is healthier than the one about ali(as)"

and not as you had stated and understood

correct me if i am wrong

Posted Lord Botta:06 May 2010 - 10:33 PM

Ibn Taymiyah, on the other hand, while pointing out to the objection raised by Al-Daraqutni, admits that the hadith is one of the most authentic hadiths about the fadha'il of Ali, without needing a supporting chain.

Posted haideriam:08 May 2010 - 10:39 PM

you have been dishonest in your translation of 7/147

or else you have no knowledge of arabic

i thought time would make it evident

but looks like you have realized the game is up

Posted Lord Botta:08 May 2010 - 11:00 PM

Wallah, I challenge you to translate 7/147! If you back down, then you are the coward.

Posted haideriam:08 May 2010 - 11:07 PM

have you the book and are you fluent in arabic

Posted Lord Botta:08 May 2010 - 11:11 PM

I have the book, bought it from Ibn Taymiyah bookshop in Sharjah around three years ago, and I've been able to speak Arabic since I was around five years old.

Posted haideriam: 08 May 2010 - 11:16 PM

that then probably leads me to the dishonesty claim

Posted Lord Botta:08 May 2010 - 11:58 PM

Quote haideriam

show me most and fadail on 7/147

and tell me it is not a continuation of the para before

Most authentic = ÃÕÍ

Fadha'il is not in the text. It is implied. Unless you are assuming that the hadith is one of the mathalib of Ali.

Posted haideriam:09 May 2010 - 12:13 AM

so fadail is not there - good

Most authentic = ÃÕÍ is incorrect

the correct translation is healthier/more authentic and not the absolute most

the ier denotes that

and then linking it up with the para above about the ansar hadith will tell you or any arabic speaker or anyone with sense that

ibn taymiya here is trying to weaken the hadith about ali

funny you never challenged it and conceded your translation

Posted haideriam:09 May 2010 - 12:52 AM

so you have admitted that fadail is not there - good

and then what about most and more - which one is more correct

my translation and my earlier highlight and your not raising an objection thereof and in fact letting your point go

i let it be to preserve some dignity for you and to let you refute yourself

my translation as is mo's and aladdin's

This is the authentic saying of the prophet and he said the ansar hadith that the love of the ansar-------------------------------

Then this narration is is healthier/more authentic then the one about ali(as) and that it is in muslim the narration of adi bin sabit and is rejected by Bukhari this hadith-------------------

This is the matn of what is written

It follows from ibn taymiya giving reasons for the hadith of the ansar being stronger than the hadith about ali

and is a link up to the earlier para as i have tried to let bro botta know in several of my posts

And not as bro botta an arab speaker since 5 has mistranslated and misunderstood

Quote haideriam, on 05 May 2010 - 01:16 PM, said:

and more healthier than the hadith about ali(as)

what have you got to say to defend yourself bro botta

all those who have access to an arab teacher or to an arab speaker kindly have them explain the scan 7/147 to you

not just the line, the line is as i have translated

once you have conceded to your dishonesty then

Posted Lord Botta:09 May 2010 - 06:19 PM

Haideriam, it seems as though you will reject the translation of a fellow Shia because of your bias. Would you like me to provide an Arabic speaking Jew in order for you to change your views? (No offense to Jews)

I wonder how Mo87 will react when he finds out that you've made a mockery of his views by taking his place.

...and since you are so much better in Arabic than me, Ninjaslim's roommate and Lotfilms, I'd love it for you to put the icing on the cake and translate the line for us all, "in context". =)

mentions in context and is trying to push me off for it has broken the back of the camel after the long journey of a year plus in establishing himself as thiqa

Posted Lord Botta:15 May 2010 - 06:07 PM

Ack, you're actually right. I read it wrong. I must have missed out on the context that came before this statement.

Without the hadith of the Ansar before it, it seemed like: "These hadiths (la yahibuni il mu'min) are one of the most authentic (fada'il) about Ali."

My apologies for dragging this on for so long.

once realizing the game was up decides to change tack and say that he had not read the para before,

when he has the book

he underlined the scan at the appropiate place

he told us he had done all homework and research unlike a goofball like me

he had been told time and again to read the ansar para before for context

he pointed out context to me

he had been provided alternate translations and one only checks as to how come there is another translation

so even without us telling him he or any sane/clever person would have tried to understand the alternate translation by reading the context

Posted Lord Botta:15 May 2010 - 10:38 PM

Also, on page 152 he says: forget the context on the same page and from where he stated that ibn taymiya authenticated the hadith, he goes elsewhere into the book to find out where ibn taymiya authenticated it, I will need to check this for i am sure you can't blame me for doing that - once bitten twice shy

It cannot be said: "There is no sign of hypocrisy other than hating Ali," and this wasn't said by any of the Sahaba. However, what can be said is, "Hating him (Ali) is a sign of hypocrisy," like what can be found in the marfu'u hadith: "Nobody hates me but a hypocrite," for this can be applied, for those who know what Ali (raa) has done when it comes to his faith in Allah and his Prophet and his jihad in his name, then hated him (Ali) upon that, then he is a munafiq.

This implies that the first hadith holds some sort of authenticity.

Posted haideriam:15 May 2010 - 10:46 PM

Quote haideriam, on 15 May 2010 - 09:57 PM, said:

where has he authenticated the hadith unless by implication

Quote Botta, on 15 May 2010 - 10:38 PM, said:

The simple fact that he doesn't do the same to this one, implies that it holds some weight.

This implies that the first hadith holds some sort of authenticity.

bro looks like we are at one on this

in that he has no where explicitly stated that the hadith of ali(as) is authentic or whatever acceptable variation

Posted Lord Botta:15 May 2010 - 11:03 PM

@haideraim:

Found it.

As for the manaqib of Ali in the sihah: The most authentic are what was said during Khaibar: "I will give the raya to a man that loves Allah and his prophet, and who is loved by Allah and his Prophet." And his saying in Tabuk: "Wouldn't you be satisfied being in the postion of Harun to Musa, except that there is not a prophet after me." And his entering in the hadith of mubahala and al-kisa'a, and him saying, "You are from me and I am from you." And none of that is for him alone. And the hadith: "Only a mu'min loves me and only a munafiq hates me." And the hadith of the shura which was brought up earlier, and the statement of Omar that the Prophet died while being satisfied of Uthman, Ali, Talha, Al-Zubair, Sa'ad, and Abdulrahman.

Minhaj Al-Sunnah 8/420 - and not 7/147 or even remotely close, showa he knew what game he was playing and would possibly get away with it

Feel free to check my translation...

will do bro botta, trust me will do, as you have lost your credibility lordship

(wasalam)

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Feel free to check my translation...

will do bro botta, trust me will do, as you have lost your credibility

Salam brother,

Forget checking the translation, they are altering books, altering hadiths, altering ilum al-rijal, altering isnad. How is one going to check all that?

For this reason Ayatollah Haideri, when he quotes from any books, he give the publication date, where it was published and the number of the publication.

If you talk to any Christian Missionaries, they will tell you that they learned these tricks from Wahhabis/Qadianis/Ahmedis!

Edited by aladdin
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I'd also like to add, for those that haven't read the first few pages, that Al-Thahabi said the following about the hadith in Siyar A'alam Al-Nubala' under the biography of Yahya bin Abdul A'atham (3/4177) Baitul Afkar Al-Duwaliya:

Rough translation:

"...and the meaning of loving is that loving Ali is a part of faith and hating him is a part of hypocrisy, and faith has many different layers, and hypocrisy has many different layers. No sane person would say: Simply loving Ali makes a person one of complete faith, and simply hating him makes one a complete hypocrite. For he who loves him (Ali) and hates Abu Bakr is in the position of those that hate him (Ali) and loved Abu Bakr. Hating them is a falsehood and hypocrisy and loving them is truth and faith. The hadith is in Saheeh Muslim."

This statement is significant because this is what Ibn Taymiyah spends most of his time speaking about in the pages above in Minhaj Al-Sunnah. The Shias of this thread, on the other hand, hold firmly to the statement made by Al-Thahabi that this hadith is mutawatir.

Holding onto this statement for Shias is a problem since it contradicts their initial argument, which is that Ibn Taymiyah weakens the hadith with his interpretation of it. If that is the case, then the same is applied to Al-Thahabi's interpretation, since it is the same as Ibn Taymiyah's. Due to this, the Shias are left with two options:

1- Accept Ibn Taymiyah's and Al-Thahabi's interpretation of the hadith and both of their authentications.

2- Reject both of their interpretations and authentications.

As for Ibn Taymiyah's authentication of the hadith, it can be found in Minhaj Al-Sunnah 8/420:

As for the manaqib of Ali in the sihah: The most authentic are what was said during Khaibar: "I will give the raya to a man that loves Allah and his prophet, and who is loved by Allah and his Prophet." And his saying in Tabuk: "Wouldn't you be satisfied being in the postion of Harun to Musa, except that there is not a prophet after me." And his entering in the hadith of mubahala and al-kisa'a, and him saying, "You are from me and I am from you." And none of that is for him alone. And the hadith: "Only a mu'min loves me and only a munafiq hates me." And the hadith of the shura which was brought up earlier, and the statement of Omar that the Prophet (pbuh) died while being satisfied of Uthman, Ali, Talha, Al-Zubair, Sa'ad, and Abdulrahman.

------------

Another thing that readers should note is that Haideriam didn't respond to my arguments and it was him that brought up all those points together in post #220. It wasn't in my intentions to drown him with arguments. However, he shouldn't have any trouble breaking down my arguments since I'm such a childish amateur.

I am copying my argument which I had earlier written on "Yaum-o-dar event" thread since you do not want to discuss it there.

...and the meaning of loving is that loving Ali is a part of faith and hating him is a part of hypocrisy, and faith has many different layers, and hypocrisy has many different layers. No sane person would say: Simply loving Ali makes a person one of complete faith, and simply hating him makes one a complete hypocrite. For he who loves him (Ali) and hates Abu Bakr is in the position of those that hate him (Ali) and loved Abu Bakr. Hating them is a falsehood and hypocrisy and loving them is truth and faith. The hadith is in Saheeh Muslim."

In the paragraph above, the writer seems to be merging his opinion with the hadith of Rasul Allah (as). I don't want his opinion.

Surely if it (Someone who hates the other caliphs is munafiq too) were true, Rasool Allah (as) would have said it himself. The statement is presented by Ibne Taimiyya in his commentary on, Rasul saying that people who hate Ali are Munafiq)

Why can't he (Ibe Taymiyya) swallow the praise for Ali (as), and not try to dilute the intensity and the meaning that the hadith carries. It seems like a desperate attempt of a person who could not weaken the narrators for some reason so instead stretches the benefit towards Shaikhan. Some tactics of nasibis.

Why are you giving me these silly arguments. Bring a neutral person and see if he thinks like I do or not on the above writer.

I am sorry, but thats the way a normal person sees it.

Edited by akamp
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^ Coming from a Sunni perspective, the "opinion" that I've provided above makes perfect sense due to the existence of the hadith that "the sign of hypocrisy is hating the Ansar." Since Sunnis believe that the muhajiroon are better than the ansar, it led them to believe that hating the muhajireen is also a sign of hypocrisy.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

when you read through the thread bro akamp, you will notice

that i had presented the afdhal/adnaa argument to him many a times

and he called it unscientific

look what he says above

the afdhal suddenly becomes important to support one's conjecture

you and bro qaim

have explained to him about stretching and taweel at it's best

and he understands all that but his game is not about understanding

it is about winning unfairly by playing only the game which he is good at

but surprise getting clobbered at it also on the other thread

hypocracy is not just a sign of not loving ali(as)

it is also mixing and mingling your words

there are levels of hypocracy too

(wasalam)

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(salam)

Lord Botta, do you plan to reply to Bro Haideriam? I know you have put Bro Haideriam on your ignore list, but since he is actually quoting your own words, maybe you like to address some of his concern. :unsure:

In the paragraph above, the writer seems to be merging his opinion with the hadith of Rasul Allah (as). I don't want his opinion.

But he is giving it for free :!!!:

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(bismillah)

(salam)

so stretching it by the same imagination or theory bro botta

(grow up and stop ignoring me)

are the ahlul bayt(as) a compulsion in your salah

better than the muhajiroon and ansar or not

and did not ibn taymiya understand it better than me and you

then how come he grades the ansar hadith more than the ali(as) hadith

did not umar understand it better than ibn taymiya

then how come umar beat the ansar chief/or whoever at saqifa

hence QED concocted hadith with a clean isnaad(made up of course)

if the hadith is sound then umar is a hypocrite

have a ball bro aladdin

(wasalam)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

so stretching it by the same imagination or theory bro botta

(grow up and stop ignoring me)

are the ahlul bayt(as) a compulsion in your salah

better than the muhajiroon and ansar or not

and did not ibn taymiya understand it better than me and you

then how come he grades the ansar hadith more than the ali(as) hadith

did not umar understand it better than ibn taymiya

then how come umar beat the ansar chief/or whoever at saqifa

hence QED concocted hadith with a clean isnaad(made up of course)

if the hadith is sound then umar is a hypocrite

have a ball bro aladdin

(wasalam)

The people who have ignored bro Haideriam should see this.

(wasalam)

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