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In the Name of God بسم الله

Marja' Differences

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This was posted on Facebook - some wise words about working together despite marja' differences - from Shaykh Safdar Razi (for those who know him). I felt the message is good so I am sharing.

Salaams, I have seen people following different MARAJE work together like one body and one soul (NAFS and ROOH), and respect each others MARAJE...

And I have seen religious people follow one same MARJE and fight and curse each others.

It all about how to handle the differences and keep it on an academic level and agree to disagree on the differences... See More, but morally there should be a mutual respect, thats how our MARAJE deal with their differences,as our Infallibles (as) taught us....

AKHLAAQ should remain high on a level which allows to embrace some one you disagree with him and does not hold obvious animosity against Islam.

My beloved ones are divided in various followers of MARAJE , I respect them all, and enjoy celebrating three EIDs with them ;)

The more the EGO goes down the more the tolerance towards the differences goes up (inverse relation)

The diversity brings strength , fruit cocktail is more delicious than uni fruit juice.

The holy Quran [shakir 60:8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.

Chief of the believers Imam Ali (as) to Malik (R.A.) his representative in Egypt:

“People are not but two kinds; either your brother in religion or same like you in creation"...

May Allah swt bless u all

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fruit cocktails usually have natural flavors that may contain alcohol, 100% juice of a single fruit often will not have that. but i do understand that scholars have to tell the followers what they like to hear or it may cause too big an uproar. you'll hear ayatollahs say the likes of this when speaking on certain topics.

Edited by gogiison2
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^ I have quotes from Sheikh Razi himself saying Ayatullah Fadlallah is not a marja and facebook quotes of him supporting the statement from Jamia Modaressin denouncing Sannei.

Not saying he is wrong or anything, but this statement seems contradictory.

I always thought you knew him very well! :Hijabi:

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there is haqq, and there is baatil.

"difference of opinion" is nonsense. as is "diversity".

point noted about akhlaaq though, its easy to bash other peoples beliefs.

Black & White, certain, are the rules of formal logic and the principles of mathematics. Everything outside this set is subject to a gray-scale..

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When I posted this, I thought to myself, "I bet that people will start arguing about what is being said here even though the words are very well spoken."

Prophecy fulfilled!

It is disenheartening that sincere advice becomes a source of argument. Surprising? Not really, given the types of arguments on other threads.

But I think if we are going to argue about the text of what I posted... we had better look into ourselves and see what is wrong with ourselves, rather than take stabs at it.

I mean, 'Fruit cocktail has alcohol but regular fruit juice does not.' Come on!

If you have a comment for Shaykh Razi, he's easy enough to contact - direct it at him personally. AFAIK he's not here on SC.

Incidentally, "diversity" is not nonsense, Rasul Allah (S) said that diversity was a blessing for his ummah.

Edited by BintAlHoda
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fruit cocktails usually have natural flavors that may contain alcohol, 100% juice of a single fruit often will not have that. but i do understand that scholars have to tell the followers what they like to hear or it may cause too big an uproar. you'll hear ayatollahs say the likes of this when speaking on certain topics.

This is a very arrogant statement, not to mention needlessly cynical. I doubt whether you have ever personally met more than a handful of ayatollahs in your life (even if that many) to make a judgment about the group.

Have some humility, and also some respect for people who dedicate their lives to religious studies.

Statements like this generally come from people who have so little knowledge that they do not know enough to recognize what they don't know.

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Incidentally, "diversity" is not nonsense, Rasul Allah (S) said that diversity was a blessing for his ummah.

That's not what the hadith means (which Sunnis have misused to try to justify their own ikhtilaf (in the sense of differences of opinions and views) amongst their madhhabs with such differences of rulings and so on). See this hadith:

حدثنا علي بن أحمد بن محمد - رحمه الله - قال: حدثنا محمد بن أبي عبد الله الكوفي عن أبي الخير صالح بن أبي حماد، قال: حدثني أحمد بن هلال، عن محمد بن أبي عمير، عن عبد المؤمن الانصاري، قال: قلت لابي عبد الله عليه السلام: إن قومارووا أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله قال: " إن اختلاف امتي رحمة " ؟ فقال: صدقوا، قلت: إن كان اختلافهم رحمة فاجتماعهم عذاب ؟ قال: ليس حيث ذهبت وذهبوا، إنما أراد قول الله عزوجل: " فلو لا نفر من كل فرقة منهم طائفة ليتفقهوا في الدين ولينذروا قومهم إذا رجعوا إليهم لعلهم يحذرون " فأمرهم أن ينفروا إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله ويختلفوا إليه فيتعلموا ثم يرجعوا إلى قومهم فيعلموهم، إنما أراد اختلافهم من البلدان لا اختلافا في دين الله، إنما الدين واحد.

(From Shaykh as-Saduq’s Ma`ani al-Akhbar) `Ali b. Ahmad b. Muhammad, may Allah have mercy on him, narrated to us. He said: Muhammad b. Abi `Abdillah al-Kufi narrated us from Abu ‘l-Khayr Salih b. Abi ‘l-Hammad. He said: Ahmad b. Hilal narrated to me from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from `Abd al-Mu’min al-Ansari. He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام: A people have narrated that the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه واله said: Verily the ikhtilaf of my Umma is a mercy. So he said: They have spoken the truth. I said: If their ikhtilaf was a mercy, then their convening is a punishment? He said: It is not as you and they have believed. He only meant the saying of Allah `azza wa jalla “but why should not a party of every section of them go forth, to become learned in religion, and to warn their people when they return to them, that haply they may beware” (9:122). So he commanded them that they go forth to the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه and that they frequent him (yakhtalifu ilayh) so that they learn then return to their people so that they teach them. He only meant their frequenting (ikhtilafahum) from their homelands, not ikhtilaf in the deen of Allah, the deen is only one.

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(bismillah)

(salam)

The problem many Shi'ah feel that with these Maraaja difference make it seems like its the same thing Sunnis have in their whole 4 schools of fiqh.

not really the same our's is constantly progressing or is alive in the sense.

i frequently keep saying this to people as to how else can a mujtahid/marja prove to you that

1. he is not (all) knowledgeable.

2. his knowledge is dependant as to what he gets from the source.

3. he is not protected from error.

but

by following you better your chance of following the halaal and abstaining from the haraam

(From Shaykh as-Saduq’s Ma`ani al-Akhbar) `Ali b. Ahmad b. Muhammad, may Allah have mercy on him, narrated to us. He said: Muhammad b. Abi `Abdillah al-Kufi narrated us from Abu ‘l-Khayr Salih b. Abi ‘l-Hammad. He said: Ahmad b. Hilal narrated to me from Muhammad b. Abi `Umayr from `Abd al-Mu’min al-Ansari. He said: I said to Abu `Abdillah Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã: A people have narrated that the Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÇáå said: Verily the ikhtilaf of my Umma is a mercy. So he said: They have spoken the truth. I said: If their ikhtilaf was a mercy, then their convening is a punishment? He said: It is not as you and they have believed. He only meant the saying of Allah `azza wa jalla “but why should not a party of every section of them go forth, to become learned in religion, and to warn their people when they return to them, that haply they may beware” (9:122). So he commanded them that they go forth to the Messenger of Allah Õáì Çááå Úáíå and that they frequent him (yakhtalifu ilayh) so that they learn then return to their people so that they teach them. He only meant their frequenting (ikhtilafahum) from their homelands, not ikhtilaf in the deen of Allah, the deen is only one.

excellent and many thanks

(wasalam)

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This is a very arrogant statement, not to mention needlessly cynical. I doubt whether you have ever personally met more than a handful of ayatollahs in your life (even if that many) to make a judgment about the group.

Have some humility, and also some respect for people who dedicate their lives to religious studies.

Statements like this generally come from people who have so little knowledge that they do not know enough to recognize what they don't know.

see here, optimism is a good thing, but when one mixes it in with naivety is when it can backfire on you. research it some more; inshaAllah you'll see what i say is true about what some ayatollahs may say about this. humility and respect? i don't quite get what you want to say. speaking of "so little knowledge," let's research the definition the FDA gives for natural flavors. many are ignorant and many are rejectors.

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I would ignore Gogiison...he is very disrespectful to the ulema even to their face. Just look at his facebook exchanges with Sheikh Makki from Philly.

well, he could have accepted the offer, right? i don't have time for one on one meetings. i asked for an audience. i don't think you remember what was said to me.

Edited by gogiison2
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(bismillah)

Philosophers say that the chances of being saved in a ship without a captain from the stormy waves of ocean are brighter than those of a man being saved in an outburst of wild passion.

God forbid, that we should ever belong to that category of people who become aggressive during academic discussions, as some of our students suffer from this intemperance. You have to resist against this bad tendency. Act against it, especially on the occasions of formal functions, which are attended by a great number of scholars and common men. During the discussions, if you see that the other party is justified in its argument, you are expected to admit your fault and confirm what opponents say. God willing, these meannesses will be eliminated in a short time. God forbid, that the words of some scholars, who claimed to be divinely inspired and said that it was revealed that the quarrel among the inhabitants of hell, mentioned by God, is that of the scholars and transmitters of ahadith, should ever be true. Even if you do not believe in the authenticity of this tradition, even then you should carefully try to get rid of this habit. See the following account:

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It is narrated from many companions of the Prophet (S) that once as the Prophet (S) came to them they were engaged in wrangling over a religious issue. The Prophet (S) of Islam was greatly displeased and was indignant to this extent that they had never seen him before in such an anger. The Prophet (S) told them it was because of this habit of wrangling that their precursors were destroyed, and he added that a true believer would never wrangle.

The Prophet (S) asked them to stop wrangling and told them that he would not act as an intercessor to any wrangler. Wrangling occupies the second place after idolatry among the things forbidden by God Almighty. The Prophet (S) is reported to have also said that unless a believer refrains from wrangling and altercation he cannot know the truth, in spite of his position being correct.

There are various traditions in this regard. How abominable it will be if we deprive ourselves of the intercession of the Prophet (S) for the sake of merely a trivial thing which has no value, no merit whatsoever. Intellectual discussions, which would otherwise be the highest order of service and worship if undertaken with sincere motives, end in such a catastrophe and wipe out all his good deeds and acts of worship. In all circumstances, man should focus his attention on each of his vices individually, and eradicate them from the domain of his soul by restraining his carnal self. Once the tresspasser is driven out, the rightful owner of the house can readily come to take possession.

(Forty Hadith by Imam Khomeini (qas), under the1st hadith)

WS

Edited by Orion
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see here, optimism is a good thing, but when one mixes it in with naivety is when it can backfire on you. research it some more; inshaAllah you'll see what i say is true about what some ayatollahs may say about this. humility and respect? i don't quite get what you want to say. speaking of "so little knowledge," let's research the definition the FDA gives for natural flavors. many are ignorant and many are rejectors.

The primary knowledge of religion is not about natural flavors. It is about ma'rifah (recognition) of God and of the akhirah, and of ethical principles. The Prophet (S) said "I was sent to perfect good manners (akhlaq)."

Yes we follow fiqh as part of our submisson to God, but knowledge of what natural flavors are halal or not is not "knowledge" in the Islamic tradition, it is "a collection of facts that one should act on". There is a vast difference between understanding and facts, in that understanding changes and guides the soul, whereas one can still have a bunch of facts and be misguided (for instance, Kharijites, or Bin Ladin).

To my knowlege, I am not naive about these issues, nor am I encouraging blind following of peopl ewho call every which way. However, it's not naive for me to respect people who have dedicated their lives to the study of religion who appear to be sincere. I dont have to agree, but I respect that, and I respect that other people do choose to follow their considered opinions. And I respect that they know a lot more than me about a lot of issues. There may be one or two areas of study which I have genunely investigated in depth in which I could claim to argue on, but as a whole I know enough - as I said above - to know the vastness of I don't know, even when it comes to shariah law, and especially when it comes to spiritual and moral ideas.

With regards to the issue of natural flavors... the role of the ulama is to tell us their understanding of what is halal and haram according to religious law. (For instance, pork) Not to tell us "Flavor X is halal and flavor Y is haram." They aren't chemists. They may answer questions on natural flavors based on their awareness of the ingredients - but they aren't specialists in the food service, and virtually every country has different legislation and labelling on packages. If you feel one of the ulama is mistaken about a particular natural flavor being halal or haram, and that you feel it has a haram ingredient - then don't eat it and feel free to send them a letter why you think X Y or Z is haram. That's not a question of religious knowledge and how to answer shariah questions, that's a pratical issue. Your awareness of the actual contents of ingredients does not mean you have superior religious knowledge, it simply means you are more familiar with the food labelling practices in your country and know more about the chemical composition of these ingredients. Hope you can distinguish the two.

Edited by BintAlHoda
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The primary knowledge of religion is not about natural flavors. It is about ma'rifah (recognition) of God and of the akhirah, and of ethical principles. The Prophet (S) said "I was sent to perfect good manners (akhlaq)."

Yes we follow fiqh as part of our submisson to God, but knowledge of what natural flavors are halal or not is not "knowledge" in the Islamic tradition, it is "a collection of facts that one should act on". There is a vast difference between understanding and facts, in that understanding changes and guides the soul, whereas one can still have a bunch of facts and be misguided (for instance, Kharijites, or Bin Ladin).

To my knowlege, I am not naive about these issues, nor am I encouraging blind following of peopl ewho call every which way. However, it's not naive for me to respect people who have dedicated their lives to the study of religion who appear to be sincere. I dont have to agree, but I respect that, and I respect that other people do choose to follow their considered opinions. And I respect that they know a lot more than me about a lot of issues. There may be one or two areas of study which I have genunely investigated in depth in which I could claim to argue on, but as a whole I know enough - as I said above - to know the vastness of I don't know, even when it comes to shariah law, and especially when it comes to spiritual and moral ideas.

you seem to advocate respect, yet you attempt to attack me without getting your facts right. i would repost Orion's post right here, but i think you can read it yourself.

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you seem to advocate respect, yet you attempt to attack me without getting your facts right. i would repost Orion's post right here, but i think you can read it yourself.

i am responding to what you began on this thread and what you said.

if you feel there is a more respectful way in which i can phrase what i said, please do so. 'those who hear the word and follow the best of it' (as the qur'an says)

(macisaac please don't post now that i am taking the verse out of context, i am pointing to a principle here - if my usage of hadith or verses is disliked i can simply explain the principle in words but this is shorthand as it is something commonly understood among us)

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i am responding to what you began on this thread and what you said.

if you feel there is a more respectful way in which i can phrase what i said, please do so. 'those who hear the word and follow the best of it' (as the qur'an says)

(macisaac please don't post now that i am taking the verse out of context, i am pointing to a principle here - if my usage of hadith or verses is disliked i can simply explain the principle in words but this is shorthand as it is something commonly understood among us)

firstly, i disagree with the analogy that Shiekh Safdar uses here. i understand he isn't infallible and we all make mistakes. i am just pointing out where what he said can be questioned. i disagree with you if you think using scrutiny equates to disrespecting someone.

-and i wanted to add something else on top of what Macisaac has said to you; context is crucial. if i remember correctly, our Imams also said that without the wrong doers, the world wouldn't be the same, or the likes of this. it does not mean that wrong doers are praised here.

Edited by gogiison2
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(salam)

O how much benefit unity and tolrence is.

How many will grab hold of the reins of tolerance

and lift the banner of unity

How many shall put on the dress of piety and undress the dress of arrogance.

How many will elate themselves in good instead of elation in disunity.

How many will oppress the masses with their own views later to find they were not correct.

And how many will accept diversity's in a time when views are many, and opinions abundant.

(wasalam)

Edited by theunknownpreacher
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