[Closed/Review]I Am Not Sexually Attracted To My Husban

[guest 34193 35]

Is she also to blame for the years of domestic abuse, emotional torture and lack of compassion which she suffered at the hands of her husband PRIOR to ever doing the 'alleged' crime? If a person is pushed to the point of destruction by those they love it is not surprising to see what they will end up doing.

To say that the entire problem rests upon her shoulders couldn't be further from the truth.

She's already "admitted" to some sort of illicit relationship with another man (the extent of which we neither know, nor do we need to know). So why exactly are we to take her word at face value regarding the prior conduct of her husband? She might be telling the truth. She might be stretching the truth (haven't you known people to do so, especially when trying to deflect the real source of blame in things, i.e. themselves). She might be lying. We don't know, and the husband isn't here to defend himself.

And whether you realize it or not, you are enabling her to sin here. While your gentle approach might make her feel happier for the moment, in fact you could not be hurting her worse by doing so. There is no justification for adultery, ever.

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

She's already "admitted" to some sort of illicit relationship with another man (the extent of which we neither know, nor do we need to know). So why exactly are we to take her word at face value regarding the prior conduct of her husband? She might be telling the truth. She might be stretching the truth (haven't you known people to do so, especially when trying to deflect the real source of blame in things, i.e. themselves). She might be lying. We don't know, and the husband isn't here to defend himself.

It is quite simple. Why do you take anything at face value on an online forum? Because I do not know you or other members on this site personally and I don't have any information outside of that which you feel comfortable providing. When someones comes to a forum to seek advice and presents their problem to people behind this sort of veil, it is unproductive to go about assuming, speculating and condemning without evidence. She has given you information and you either accept what she has told you and help her on that basis (which is what we usually do on shiachat) or if you feel uncomfortable and suspicious you refrain from giving advice.

She might be obscuring details. Maybe her husband has never laid a finger on her and is the kindest, most generous man in all the world. Maybe he has beaten her horribly and subjected her to psychological torment that we can't begin to imagine. We deal with what we have. If she sincerely wants practical advice she probably isn't embellishing.

And whether you realize it or not, you are enabling her to sin here. While your gentle approach might make her feel happier for the moment, in fact you could not be hurting her worse by doing so. There is no justification for adultery, ever.

Enabling would be encouraging her to continue in an illicit extra marital relationship (I have not read the thread in its entirety but I don't recall anyone doing anything of the sort). However, there is virtue in addressing the circumstances and special needs of someone who has presented themselves as a victim of domestic abuse. It doesn't mean you are patting them on the back and encouraging them to continue.

Do you believe the approach that others have taken in this thread will help this woman? :unsure: The only people who could possibly advocate this simplistic method are- as the sis stated earlier- "doing the best with what they have." Their best is crude, simplistic and it has no place in a religion like ours.

When you call her an adulteress, condemn her to hell, and have the audacity to suggest she would be stoned (all without the evidence required by our religion) all you do is make her victimize herself even further and lessen the chances that she will deal with this issue in a healthy, productive manner.

You would think people on this forum are allergic to thoughtfulness the way I am allergic to tact.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Zahratul_Islam

[guest 34193 35]

It is quite simple. Why do you take anything at face value on an online forum? Because I do not know you or other members on this site personally and I don't have any information outside of that which you feel comfortable providing. When someones comes to a forum to seek advice and presents their problem to people behind this sort of veil, it is unproductive to go about assuming, speculating and condemning without evidence. She has given you information and you either accept what she has told you and help her on that basis (which is what we usually do on shiachat) or if you feel uncomfortable and suspicious you refrain from giving advice.

She might be obscuring details. Maybe her husband has never laid a finger on her and is the kindest, most generous man in all the world. Maybe he has beaten her horribly and subjected her to psychological torment that we can't begin to imagine. We deal with what we have. If she sincerely wants practical advice she probably isn't embellishing.

There's some truth there. Which is probably another reason why online forums aren't really appropriate for such things. Especially in this case, a married woman asking for sexual advice on a forum in a large part populated by young unmarried virgins.

Enabling would be encouraging her to continue in an illicit extra marital relationship (I have not read the thread in its entirety but I don't recall anyone doing anything of the sort). However, there is virtue in addressing the circumstances and special needs of someone who has presented themselves as a victim of domestic abuse. It doesn't mean you are patting them on the back and encouraging them to continue.

I more had in mind what the brother said in another post of his, which was:

And no, I am not justifying her actions, they are indeed filthy, however all I am saying is that if she is to repent out of compulsion, and make a pledge to Allah and herself to refrain from this action, then when she is with her husband and she is faced once again with her domestic issues and her female innate desire for love and affection is unfulfilled she will run back to that very action she told herself not to commit, because deep down nothing has changed and the effect, the sin, will resurface again!

Yes, will power and self control is needed undoubtedly, but this woman is on the verge of emotional implosion, in an extreme circumstance that has left her in a wreck and fragile. A mother, beaten by her own husband, outcast by family, denied affection and love. We need to admonish her with wisdom, not like one-dimensional robots. Only someone with strong and immense self control can stop nature from taking its predetermined route, and this is something even Prophet Yusuf prayed for when approached by the women of the town, when he asked Allah to put him in prison away from their plans.

Ok, it starts out good (up to "filthy"), but then goes downhill from there. She shouldn't repent yet because she's bound to just do it again as hard circumstance will have forced her to a predetermined route which only someone with an immense self control could have avoided? What???

Do you believe the approach that others have taken in this thread will help this woman?

It really depends on how serious she is about changing her ways. For something like this I think in trying to help someone else (I mean really trying to help, not just impress yourself with your own eloquence) you need both to be trying to convey warning and hope. Warning over the seriousness of what they have done (and the fear of Hell is entirely appropriate here) but hope in telling her the way out (stopping the sin, truly repenting to God and asking for His forgiveness, and striving to believe and do good works from now one). I get the impression that the lady in this situation needs some tough love otherwise I see a danger of her actually believing something like the above (it wasn't really my fault, I couldn't help it due to circumstances), but that said there is really a limit to what we might really know in this format. (For all we know "she" could really be some 15 year old juvenile male having a laugh on all of us. I doubt it, but it's possible)

[Gypsy 3,162]

(salam)

If being in an abusive relationship is going to drive you into another man’s arm, then why don’t people get a divorce? At-least you will be saving yourself from sinning and a chance for a happier life (maybe).

Some marriages cannot be saved no matter how much you try. When do you cut the relationship and move on?

[Guest Zahratul_Islam]

There's some truth there. Which is probably another reason why online forums aren't really appropriate for such things. Especially in this case, a married woman asking for sexual advice on a forum in a large part populated by young unmarried virgins.

Oh come on. She was hardly asking for "sexual advice" from the young, unmarried virgins populating shiachat. Are we not being a tad dramatic? I don't think giving advice on this matter hinged on having had sexual intercourse anymore than it is a prerequisite for members to have a background or education in political science before posting frantically in the political forum.

The point is, a lot of the stuff asked on this forum could probably get better answers elsewhere. We do not have very many people who have a background in psychology, etc (although mashAllah we do have a quite a few cyber wannabe mullahs). Very rarely are people on this forum equipped with the knowledge or the sensitivity (as has been displayed repeatedly throughout this thread) to answer questions of this nature.

However, every once in a while we get people (like we did in this thread) who have something worth saying and were unfortunately shot down by a "married adult" who accused them of handing out "tea and sympathy to an adulteress." Age and marital status are obviously not indicators of wisdom.

I more had in mind what the brother said in another post of his, which was:

Ok, it starts out good (up to "filthy"), but then goes downhill from there. She shouldn't repent yet because she's bound to just do it again as hard circumstance will have forced her to a predetermined route which only someone with an immense self control could have avoided? What???

I understand why you are confused. Try this.. reread what he wrote and this time around attempt to understand the meaning rather than glancing for buzz words like "filthy" "hell" "burn" "haddith" "stone" etc that you seem to feel are necessary in order to validate an opinion. The brother is being pragmatic and sensible. His posts were spot on and I can't seem to muster the same level of outrage.

It really depends on how serious she is about changing her ways. For something like this I think in trying to help someone else (I mean really trying to help, not just impress yourself with your own eloquence) you need both to be trying to convey warning and hope. Warning over the seriousness of what they have done (and the fear of Hell is entirely appropriate here) but hope in telling her the way out (stopping the sin, truly repenting to God and asking for His forgiveness, and striving to believe and do good works from now one). I get the impression that the lady in this situation needs some tough love otherwise I see a danger of her actually believing something like the above (it wasn't really my fault, I couldn't help it due to circumstances), but that said there is really a limit to what we might really know in this format. (For all we know "she" could really be some 15 year old juvenile male having a laugh on all of us. I doubt it, but it's possible)

You know me too well Mac. :blush:

Edited March 24, 2010 by Zahratul_Islam

[tlady 0]

I would like to address SOME of the posts here.... I am not some person playing a silly game. With this response, I can prob guess many will start to think, "oh she wants sympathy and is trying to justify herself". I been through HELL and back. I thought about taking my life once because the abuse was so bad!!! I DIDNT- obviously!!

Next, I could not go to anyone. Culture and family structure did not allow me that freedom, though I did mention it to my parents, who mentioned it to his parents and NOTHING was done. My parents are very old and not well. I hid them the truth of my life to avoid them pain and hurt.

He stopped prob because he wanted the kids to always think he was " a good dad" since the children would sense something when they got home from school. His parents thought to control one's wife you could hit her!!! yes, this is true.... I remember that day that it got so bad, i picked up the phone to FINALLY call the police because I was scared for my life!!! So he slowly stopped the physical abuse, but the verbal and emotional abuse continued!!

WHY DID HE DO THIS??? Well, i can start by saying he had a very bad temper since childhood which was never controlled. I never knew!! He was severely insecure and still is about his relationship with his father ( who was also abusive- not as bad as he). His siblings were just NOT NICE PEOPLE IN ANY CAPACITY and would preach their religious banter left and right.

I swear on my children, I NEVER did anything to EVER deserve this!! I was very patient always waiting for his good side to come back. I was sooo young, that I did not know love or the laws of relationships outside of what i saw. I didnt have friends because he never let me. After my children, he told me to be a size 2 and lose the weight because "you would not like me looking at other women"!! So i did...i work out like crazy and the rest, Allah has blessed me with decent looks. ( sounds so strange to even write this).

Human insecurity is their tragic downfall! He was so afraid of everything, that the stress came out on me- ANY STRESS!! I could not go to my parents house, because my face would have showed the abuse!! Years of this I stayed...praying he would change and scared to be alone with children!! Where would i go, who would want me with 2 kids? what a shame to my very large family!!! I was patient, prayed, BUT very very alone and very scared.

So when a person comes along and actually notices how i take care of my family, how I deal with my parents sickness( he is a doctor), I guess he was intrigued... Just a person asking "how are you" and helping me made me feel warm. I never wanted to start loving someone else...i hadnt before!!! But for once telling my story to someone was refreshing and I thought it would help me with my husband... well it didnt of course, I started caring for him.... Being of arab descent as well, he knows its wrong.... But he started caring for me and could not believe how i lived with so much ( too many details to get into here) in fact he saw a brief burst of my husbands temper once for a trivial petty matter!!

Honestly, after the first initial responses, I told myself just do whatever i can because at this point, even my love for another has condemned me.

I am very afraid of being alone. I know everyone will say Allah is there, but I have done that for many yrs already. Human love and compassion is different. My children are my best friends, but soon IA they will have their own life.

Brothers, please understand that a woman loses all respect with the very first kick or punch or slap!! A woman looks for protection...isnt that why our parents get us married???

I do not want this topic to offend anyone or to become an argument amongst people...im sorry if this is what has happened.....

As far as my steps...i have already spoken to this other guy and its quite heart wrenching on both sides to say thank you for being there...but its ALL wrong..... but i did.......

I am so weary that now if Allah has decided then it will be so......

Thank you to all who have been so empathetic and kind. It's nice to see people standing up for me ( NOT MY ACTION). Please pray for me.....

[3ashiqat-Al-Batoul 11]

^ That post was very emotional and you can't imagine the pain I feel for you right now. I don't even want to imagine being in that type of situation, because just imagining that I would have to live that way hurts my heart, let alone having to actually experience it.

Sister, all that has happened to you in your life, and your patience and raising your kids as religious good humans will lead you to jannah, all you have to do is end the relationship with this other man. I know how hard it must be, somebody caring for you and loving you for 4 years when you had absolutely nobody else, It will probably kill your heart to have to let go of that, but it is the only way. You can be held in such a high esteem in front of Allah swt. You can't begin to imagine the status of the oppressed, especially the one that shows patience and never stops having hope and faith in Allah swt.

You don't have to remain in this situation. If the only reason your husband changed is to make himself appear nicer in front of others, and there's no chance of him actually going to counseling and fixing what has been broken, I advice you to go to a psychologist yourself and try to sort out all the emotional scars you have. The psychologist can give you the relief that this other man has been given you, without causing you more problems and making you feel guilty your entire life for doing something haram. You can be free of all of this pain, you can move forward and either learn to live happily within your situation, or accept that divorce is the only option and leave the marriage with dignity.

You should not tell anybody that you were with another man however, and you must in fact move forward as if there was never another man, and truly repent before Allah swt for what you have done and never go back to that situation.

You have obviously seen in my other posts what cheating means and how big of a sin and horrible it is. But this doesn't mean there is no hope like you said before, there is hope. You just need to take that step toward Allah swt, let go of this sin that you are committing, make this step and inshallah Allah swt will take the 10 promised steps toward you.

Your life can and will get better, you just need to move forward. If you truly want to love your husband again that is an option, but you really do need counseling.

I wish you the best, and please please take my advice about the cheating subject, it is crucial.

[tlady 0]

Also... I do have something to say publicly to Batoul:

I really do not know who you are, how old, married, kids???

So let me tell you this- assuming you are young- be careful of the words you throw at anyone, The people here were upset by your words, and they were not even directed towards them. Imagine how you made me feel! Maybe you would love to get your jollies off of having a chance to stone me- whether or not you know the truth or whether or not I am guilty!! My heart is my own and my actions as such. Be mindful that we all have a future in front of us and Allah can do many things to test us and we all may or may not fail. Maybe this was your little test and yes YOU FAILED ME!!

Women have a strange nature, which is why I chose hardly ever to get close to any female. They- that is many- love seeing another woman hurt, or ugly, or fat, or just indigent, in order to bring herelf up. I would know since my best friend happens to be a psychologist (though being a family friend could never tellher my story- unfortunately). So when the initial shock of your words faded, I obviously started to analyze them. As you progressed, you just stopped making much sense. Please re-evaluate yourself so that you are not condescending. Hateful or hurtful words have a background, especially towards someone you dont even know???

I do not need to further answer any of your questions. You did not have the common decency of just saying, "sorry Tlady if I was rude". That's just a little lesson in Akhlaq. Apologizing does not make my situation right or wrong, but at least I would have known your heart meant well for me. Obviously, your intention was not heartfelt.

Good luck and God bless!!!

[3ashiqat-Al-Batoul 11]

^ That post kinda makes me less sympathetic, but nonetheless everything i said before holds true.

Good luck to you too. :)

[Muskaan 21]

Dear tlady,

In my initial post, I said

Perhaps you are have just written this to vent, because I am not sure what advice anyone can really give you.

I can see now that there was plenty of advice we have all given you...so Oooops!

Well I guess I will join the bandwagon here.

The one thing you need to do most immediately is leave this thread (and the other one too...you know which one I mean, right). Everyone has given you their thoughts and opinions...some positive, others not so. But as soon as everyone leaves the screen, we get back to our own lives. You are the one left affected by whatever everyone has so enthusiastically typed out. And I can see that the condemnnation has had its negative effect...naturally so. You appear to be pretty strong from what you have been through...so dont be weakend by others opinions of you. Eventually, your own opinion of yourself is the only one that counts. You are a sensible lady, so I think you know what to do.

Another thing about staying on this thread is that slowly and I know its totally unintended, you are begining to reveal tiny details of yourself which may identify you. As Haji had mentioned, this will leave you completely exposed, and in deeper problems than you are now.

I wish the best for you and your children....do the right thing.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Muskaan

[Marbles 16,033]

Sister, all that has happened to you in your life, and your patience and raising your kids as religious good humans will lead you to jannah,

*Blows whistle*

Listen folks, we have a change of plan.

[Maula Dha Mallang 1,491]

tlady, i dont know why but alarm bells have started ringing in my head that this is all a fake situation and you are a troll. something isnt adding up here and i cant put my finger on it, its something you said but ive forgotten what it is lol.....ive been on this website quite a while now and this exact topic has been started by trolls in the past as well, and there was always something that gave them away (wish i remembered what it WAS!)

i hope to god that this is the case, cos if everything is true then i truly, truly feel sorry for you.

[ali the lion 3]

Dear tlady,

You have two options,

1. Leave your present husband in the best manner possible without revealing to him what happened in your life with another man. Start a new life and you can always have good relation with your kids as they grow they will understand.

2. Stay with your present husband and severe all connections with the other man, believe me however good he sounds to you he is not a honest person.

Pray for Allahs forgiveness daily for the rest of your life. I am not judging you. But you have to take care of your own deeds and let your husband care for his own bad deeds against you. He is going to go in his grave and you in yours. And if by any chance you decide to continue your life with your husband than treat him well so that in the eyes of Allah he doesnt have any argument against you, because may be in the eyes of Allah by treating him well you have attoned for your sin.

Pray daily sister I repeat.

[Gypsy 3,162]

He stopped the physical abuse a while back, but it had gone ontoo long already...my kids dont know a thing and I have protected them...he is trying to be a good husband now, since the kids are older and he neer hurts them...his family pressured him a lot and all the anger would unleash on me... am with him because I dont want to hurt my kids,

(salam)

Tlady,

I know people are saying that you should not inform your children anything about this, but I still think it is a mistake to try to shield your children from the abusive relationship (what was happening to you). They need to know the truth. Islam doesn’t treat teenagers as kids. They could have been your friends, a shoulder to cry on and for support.

Having the other man makes this problem more complicated. You now have two problems.

The most important thing is for you to decide your future plan. I don’t think it is possible to be happy until you really solve your problem. And I don’t think your problem will disappear on it’s own.

[Haji 2003 7,790]

tlady, i dont know why but alarm bells have started ringing in my head that this is all a fake situation and you are a troll. something isnt adding up here and i cant put my finger on it, its something you said but ive forgotten what it is lol.....ive been on this website quite a while now and this exact topic has been started by trolls in the past as well,

Salaam Bro

I think you are spot on. I was around within the last year when something like this happened and flagged the same issue. Such threads tend to go on a bit because we have Sis here who want to support the Sistahood, and we have Bro's who just can't help themselves when they see a damsel in distress.

The question though is why does an OP such as this want to post in the first place - what do they hope to get out of it? And that is ultimately what gives them away and always will.

Bro, why do you post? Why do I post? It's to express a point of view, about something we believe in. And I think in 99.9% of cases it applies to other posters as well. And it's the same here. The OP has a specific view about gender relations and is using this hypothetical case in order to express them. The case is useful for them because by it's very nature it immediately gives them the moral upperhand, even before any discussion has started.

Though this may be a troll, some of the issues raised are interesting, so let's play along.

The second thing is this, we are supposed to believe is that someone who has suffered silently for 20 years, has now developed amazing levels of articulation in order to express the grief and outrage that they feel? This same person who has suffered in silence now hits back asap to posters who argue with her. Oh really? Quite a change in personality. No? For 20 years this person has been meeting health professionals, social services, talking to her own family, friends (hers not his) and not a peep.

Yet after the event, on a BB that it seems she has never visited before (otherwise she'd have had an idea of the possible reaction), she pops in and to a group of strangers tells all.

In excruciating detail.

Sure there are people around who have suffered, who have been through counselling etc. etc. and after time and healing are able to self-reflect, write about it even etc. but that's not the supposed scenario here.

If the OP had admitted that last point, the case would have lost some of its poignancy. If this had been a third person reporting of something that had happened to someone else, it may have been more believable, but again lost some of its edge.

So that's what lets these people down. Trying to achieve too much.

All IMHO.

[Muskaan 21]

I have taken this as a genuine case, because, well I guess I take things at face value. However, there are two points, which perhaps have a satisfactory explanation, but dont quite add up.

Haji, you have somewhat covered both of them.

Firstly, the OP has been in an oppressive relationship for several years. She has "suffered in silence"...yet she is very able to hold her own on this forum. The probable explanation for that is the comfort of anonymity and the fact that she has the advantage to think before typing as opposed to giving an answer on the spot.

The second point, I believe, is stronger yet more subtle. I will try and put it across the best way i can. Nobody wants to be in an abusive relationship, yet many women are and still hanging onto it. Why? You may say they are weak, not able to fend for themselves, social stigma, children etc. But there is a vague and perhaps elusive bond that is formed between the two partners being together for so long ...not obvious, not even acknowledged but its definitely there. In this case, the bond is more apparent as she claims to be friends with him and they look after and enjoy the children together. So I am wondering how its acceptable for her to insistently create a negative image about him. Oh no doubt what he has done is utterly despicable, but if she were in a genuine relationship, somehow, somewhere it would hurt her that she is allowing random strangers to think adversely about him to such an extent. Its one thing to vent, but quite another to spew. So i stick to my previous advice...tlady leave the thread .... whether you are genuine or not.

Anyway I may have been completely incoherent on this, so apologies.

I think I have said too much.

[ali the lion 3]

Dear Tlady,

I am not judging you and you have never mentioned that adultery took place, nevertheless i feel its important to let you know about an event that took place in our neighbourhood.

A woman not known to be bad was divorced by her husband after some problems in her marriage. And it was also confirmed that the divorce happened because of another man in her life. The husband compalined that to the community senior members. After the divorce one year later fire broke out in the woman's parents home. She was alone in the house and was trapped. She was burnt alive. And she died from her wounds after 7 days in hospital.

May Allah guide us and give us an oppurtunity to repent.

[Haji 2003 7,790]

To Bro Haji, Muskaan and others,

We forgot the whole purpose of the thread and went from stoning the "adulteress" to playing Sherlock Homes investigation techniques. If that's how it works, then no one should write about any of their problems, because we'll be busy finding accusations or detecting lies rather than simply replying to what information we are given.

Well it never really had a purpose did it? Lady puts up her story and people tell her that they'll pray for her. Great, fine, let's move on. No-one is questioning her or anything. But no, that's not enough. We get to hear about the other dude and so it develops.

And all along you wonder what actually is the purpose?

Sometime later on she says she wanted to know what duas to use in order to help her love her husband. Came as news to me since she'd never said that before. People have actually given sound advice, but AFAICS she's not really responded to it. We still don't know whether she'll dump Dude No.2. People have also said on a number of occasions that proper counselling would be better. I offered at the start to move this to the Sis board, where it could at least be a little more private. None of those offers have been taken up.

As I have said, but you have chosen to ignore, people come to this site to attack Islam and Muslims in many different ways, some crude, some more subtle. This thread, IMHO was an attempt to wheedle-in acknowledgement/understanding/acceptance of an haram relationship, and to create doubt in the minds of believers.

This person wanted a more general discussion and she's got it. And in the process we've had another chance to see the true colours of the posters on this board - which is never a bad thing.

[Faris-Al-Hujjat 16]

intent in the begining to start with...

well said Haji 2003...your judgement is quite definitive..

i am sure after reading your post ..this lady or who ever it is will not return to SC

[Marbles 16,033]

This thread has long run its course and it is making less and less sense as it is progressing, oopss I mean digressing.

Calm has a solid point and it should mark the end of this stupid thread.

[Guest]

Well it never really had a purpose did it? Lady puts up her story and people tell her that they'll pray for her. Great, fine, let's move on. No-one is questioning her or anything. But no, that's not enough. We get to hear about the other dude and so it develops.

And all along you wonder what actually is the purpose?

Sometime later on she says she wanted to know what duas to use in order to help her love her husband. Came as news to me since she'd never said that before. People have actually given sound advice, but AFAICS she's not really responded to it. We still don't know whether she'll dump Dude No.2. People have also said on a number of occasions that proper counselling would be better. I offered at the start to move this to the Sis board, where it could at least be a little more private. None of those offers have been taken up.

As I have said, but you have chosen to ignore, people come to this site to attack Islam and Muslims in many different ways, some crude, some more subtle. This thread, IMHO was an attempt to wheedle-in acknowledgement/understanding/acceptance of an haram relationship, and to create doubt in the minds of believers.

This person wanted a more general discussion and she's got it. And in the process we've had another chance to see the true colours of the posters on this board - which is never a bad thing.

Exactly.

People need to be more attentive and alert, and to put pieces together when they should be put together. Nobody is doing this religion any favor when people decide that withholding sound critical judgment is an unfortunate necessity for some great altruistic vision of "empathy" and "understanding". People here are cheapening these terms significantly, and abusing them to the point of irrelevant cliche.

I wonder truly about the consistency of people. Some people will take the propaganda or slander of our marja or other Muslim leaders at face value, without question and with absolute firmness, but yet when it comes to a potential troll who has led us on a wild goose chase of drama, people turn 180 degrees into brainless softies, giving her every benefit of the doubt, and using all their energies given to defend and protect this narrative at all costs. People who simply provide statements to critically examine this whole hugfest are targeted as rude, mean, intolerant, and lacking proper Islamic ethics. But IMO most of us really don't know what proper Islamic ethics are, but are instead victims of our own social/cultural/tiime relativism, and then superimposing that on our religion, and calling it "Islam".

I agree bro Haji, the only good that has come out of this is that it really does demonstrate the true colors of people on this board. Threads like these, along with the political ones, are usually the ones that do it.

I agree, things just don't really add up.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Mahdaviat

[shoelace 44]

enough of bull [Edited Out] on this thread time to lock it up.

[Marbles 16,033]

People need to be more attentive and alert, and to put pieces together when they should be put together.

Yes, detective, yes. You can put together whatever pieces you want but do remember that you are as much in dark about the opening poster and the opening story as mod haji or me or someone else. Does that ring a few bells of humility in your ears or are you still bent on doing your e-detective work?

Nobody is doing this religion any favor when people decide that withholding sound critical judgment is an unfortunate necessity for some great altruistic vision of "empathy" and "understanding". People here are cheapening these terms significantly, and abusing them to the point of irrelevant cliche.

Was this thread about doing favour to religion or something? I think I missed the point of the thread then. I thought it deals with a problem a woman is having in her life who is also involved in a sin that needs taking care of. Taking care of baby religion? I didn't no seriously. Thanks for enlightening though. . .

Of course 'empathy' and 'understanding' are Western concepts. We need Islamic ones to replace that. So lets forget everything and stone the OP to death for allegedly committing adultery and dutifully inform her of her eternal abode - God's beautiful Hell - to which you have sent her. Pretty Islamic I would say.

I wonder truly about the consistency of people. Some people will take the propaganda or slander of our marja or other Muslim leaders at face value, without question and with absolute firmness, but yet when it comes to a potential troll who has led us on a wild goose chase of drama, people turn 180 degrees into brainless softies, giving her every benefit of the doubt, and using all their energies given to defend and protect this narrative at all costs. People who simply provide statements to critically examine this whole hugfest are targeted as rude, mean, intolerant, and lacking proper Islamic ethics.

This happens when you forget the point and go off on a tangent. You stop making an iota of sense. 180 degree turns? our marja? Muslim leaders? critical examination? Are you alright, brrrottherr?

But IMO most of us really don't know what proper Islamic ethics are, but are instead victims of our own social/cultural/tiime relativism, and then superimposing that on our religion, and calling it "Islam".

I thought you were more sophisticated than that. Good luck if you think that your Islamic consciousness of right and wrong works in a free vacuum uninterrupted and untouched by the forms, narrative, values and structures of the sociocultural reality you are a part of. This thread has been a good example to show Islamic ethics and courses of actions are indeed a function of your own superimposition of your cultural framework, instead of being a stand-alone reality which you can grab and inform others of it. I really think you need to pick up a title from Edward Said and improve upon your understanding of culture.

I agree bro Haji, the only good that has come out of this is that it really does demonstrate the true colors of people on this board. Threads like these, along with the political ones, are usually the ones that do it.

Agreed million times. I loved Haji's point and the absolute agreement we are getting on this from the participants of this thread.

Your worksheet:

Marks for English: 10/10

Marks for content. Nil, duck's egg, zero.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Marbles

[Guest]

^You gotta love the intolerant rage. Ironic, isn't it?

1. We are all in the dark to an extent, but we have all been on this site long enough to know some basic trends and patterns on things such as this. Any statement or judgment is not definitive, it will change as more is known. Giving the unequivocal benefit of the doubt is not taking a neutral or default stance, it is making a judgment in itself. You have to realize that. You are not exempt from the burden of validation.

2. This is an Islamic forum (at least in theory), and so when people bring up issues, especially ones dealing with sinful behavior, expect an attempt by people to provide an Islamic response to the answer. Anything else is absolutely irrelevant. If it contradicts Islam, or if advice is given with the intention of something other than serving this religion, it is pointless. The rest of your point is....well yeah. Whatever.

3. No tangent. Just making an observation of possible double standards, and you must know I was thinking about you when I made that point, which was why you were so quick to answer. I wish you would have provided something more substantive though.

4. I didn't exempt myself from being a relativistic creature. Islam is an all-encompassing system that accommodates many relative frames of references within its absolute framework. The only problem is when that relative frame of reference is highly skewed towards deviant ideals contrary to Islamic principles. That's what happens when people rely too much on their own logic, their own opinions, and their own immediate tangible environment to explain everything intangible. Some people refuse to examine issues beyond their own relative worlds.

5. I'm sure if I had come on this forum telling you that I had four girlfriends, am a Persian Pride playboy, and was a part time rapper on the side, you would give me a much warmer reception than you do for me now. Sorry about that. Can't control who I am. Where's my open arms?

[Marbles 16,033]

^

Bro, stick to politics forums. This isn't your place.

Edward Said I said.

[Guest]

^Ironic, I've said the same thing to you on the politics forums, but you never listened to me.

[Candela 5]

I have a Q for the OP:

Is your only problem right now that you're not sexually attracted to your husband?

And what did you want out of this whole thread?

[wayfarer. 467]

^You gotta love the intolerant rage. Ironic, isn't it?

1. We are all in the dark to an extent, but we have all been on this site long enough to know some basic trends and patterns on things such as this. Any statement or judgment is not definitive, it will change as more is known. Giving the unequivocal benefit of the doubt is not taking a neutral or default stance, it is making a judgment in itself. You have to realize that. You are not exempt from the burden of validation.

2. This is an Islamic forum (at least in theory), and so when people bring up issues, especially ones dealing with sinful behavior, expect an attempt by people to provide an Islamic response to the answer. Anything else is absolutely irrelevant. If it contradicts Islam, or if advice is given with the intention of something other than serving this religion, it is pointless. The rest of your point is....well yeah. Whatever.

3. No tangent. Just making an observation of possible double standards, and you must know I was thinking about you when I made that point, which was why you were so quick to answer. I wish you would have provided something more substantive though.

4. I didn't exempt myself from being a relativistic creature. Islam is an all-encompassing system that accommodates many relative frames of references within its absolute framework. The only problem is when that relative frame of reference is highly skewed towards deviant ideals contrary to Islamic principles. That's what happens when people rely too much on their own logic, their own opinions, and their own immediate tangible environment to explain everything intangible. Some people refuse to examine issues beyond their own relative worlds.

5. I'm sure if I had come on this forum telling you that I had four girlfriends, am a Persian Pride playboy, and was a part time rapper on the side, you would give me a much warmer reception than you do for me now. Sorry about that. Can't control who I am. Where's my open arms?

:) mashallah that was an excellent response.

[Aafreen 12]

So take from what I said what you want and discard what you want, I am satisfied that I have done the best I can do. Wasalam all. :)

Too bad most of it must be discarded!

This thread really does expose the contemporary Islamic society's outright refusal to engage in introspection and call a spade a spade. Why is the onus on tlady to please Allah? What about the male in this situation? Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one has unequivocally condemned her husband's violent behaviour thus far. Go right ahead and excuse the wife-beater, but expect the victim to fear God and act as such so your patriarchal institutions aren't challenged. You overzealously God-fearing folks might as well tell them Palestinians that apartheid and oppression are not an excuse for their suicide bombings or indiscriminate rocket fire...

Batoul: the image of Islamic justice you've painted could only have been possible in the second Caliph's infamous court. I'm certain that the Imams would have first and foremost responded to the violence and abuse that this woman was put through...

Sweeping widespread problems within your society under the rug will only come to haunt you... the Catholic Church is a potent example!

[Photi 9]

"And if you were harsh and of severe heart, they would have deserted you." (Quran 3:159)

I don't think there is anything unislamic about having tact and compassion, but what is so Islamic about being stern?  Part of the Islamic akhlaq is to assume the best about people.  I am not saying we should be unintelligent about matters, but there is no strong indicator that this woman is a troll other than the fact that her thread has upset people.   Better to help a troll than to desert a person in distress.   That she continues to come back and respond to other peoples' comments in a civilized way suggests to me that she is a bona fide person with real problems that need real solutions. 

I don't understand this need to be harsh with people, and I don't understand why so many of you take it as a sign of weakness and irreligiosity when sincere people attempt to come up viable solutions to ugly problems.  Understanding is not the same thing as justifying.  Horrible things happen when husbands abuse their wives, Tlady's story is but one example.         

[Candela 5]

You overzealously God-fearing folks might as well tell them Palestinians that apartheid and oppression are not an excuse for their suicide bombings or indiscriminate rocket fire...

It's understandable, but not an excuse. Islam still stands at the end of the day and we can't change the fact that warfare has regulations in our deen (and you can never kill civialians and say it's Islamic or relate it to Islaam, killing one is like killing the whole of humanity etc etc).

It's all understandable, and people making things overly simplistic are overlooking the complexity, and that things have cause and effect.

But does that change Islaam? Heck no.

[Candela 5]

Well Palestians are the victims in the conflict no one is arguing that so take a chill pill. But they're not infallible, and those claiming suicide bombings yields martyrdom are making Islaam a big disfavour.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Candela

[Candela 5]

^Geez, maybe because suicide is haraam? And taking others with you while doing it doesn't convince me more. But thanks for your "reasoning".

I don't have to suppress or deny my own instincts as a Muslim just because I follow a marja, that which I don't comprehend I will not comprehend no matter what.

[Haji 2003 7,790]

2. This is an Islamic forum (at least in theory), and so when people bring up issues, especially ones dealing with sinful behavior, expect an attempt by people to provide an Islamic response to the answer. Anything else is absolutely irrelevant. If it contradicts Islam, or if advice is given with the intention of something other than serving this religion, it is pointless. The rest of your point is....well yeah. Whatever.

Bro in the last 24 hours on this forum another Shia Bro has posted a picture of himself next to some ladies. He says they are part of a dance troupe.

I do not see any one of the people who have criticised Sis Batoul, making even the slightest comment to that other poster about the acceptability of his actions, from an Islamic pov.

As I said, true colours.

[Photi 9]

Bro in the last 24 hours on this forum another Shia Bro has posted a picture of himself next to some ladies. He says they are part of a dance troupe.

I do not see any one of the people who have criticised Sis Batoul, making even the slightest comment to that other poster about the acceptability of his actions, from an Islamic pov.

As I said, true colours.

you make it sound as though enjoining the good and forbidding the bad is some black and white topic without intricacies of understanding.  i know absolutely nothing about Nazar Abbas, how could i even begin to think that I would be able to understand things from his perspective? and if i don't know his perspective on things how then could i find the common ground between him and i to have any sort of positive effect on him?  in fact, i don't even know what the ruling is on 'dancing,' so am i supposed to speak without knowledge?  

you read it yourself, he said "dancing is my passion."  if a person all of a sudden declares to him "dancing is haram...you are being sinful and you should stop," is that going to have any probability of success in getting him to stop dancing?  if he says it is his passion, that means it is a big part of his identity and it is typically not possible to suddenly kill off a huge portion of oneself like that.  this discussion with him will require considerable tact and understanding of his circumstances.  maybe he was raised in a dance troupe and knows no other way of being.  maybe his culture is telling him that his actions are 100% acceptable, how then can you convince him he is doing something wrong (if in fact he is doing something wrong)?  if his particular style of dance is haram, is there an alternative artistic outlet or other form of dance he could partake in that will satisfy his passion in a more Islamically acceptable way?   

my assumption is that he has other people in his life who actually know him, and *if* he is doing something wrong then i think the responsibility falls on them, not us, to show him the proper way.  

here are some  random quotes from S. Fadlullah on the subject of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil (see section nine at the link):

However, it has to be borne in mind that enjoining good and forbidden evil should not be carried out in a manner that may hurt the feelings of people and drive them further away from Islam. Neither should it be insulting and offensive to others; if so, it will be haraam. In a counsel to Imam Ali (a.s.), the Prophet (p.) had these words for him, "O Ali! This religion is solid, so to penetrate it deeply, you have to be gentle (in your approach)". This illustrates vividly that it is very important to put forward the truth in a wise and tactful enough manner that is commensurate to the capability of the intended person.

However, for counseling to be effective every effort has to be put into studying the circumstances of the sinful and choosing the right person and time to make inroads into rehabilitating them, as will be discussed.

No doubt achieving results could hinge upon the style used in giving counsel, be it harsh or mild; it also vary from one person to the other, male/female, young/old, father/son, etc., from time to another, from one venue to another, one to one or in a group, during the month of Ramadhan or the commemoration of the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (a.s.), by way of a play, a film, a picnic, music, and so forth. So, one has to be tactful in using the best way possible that may yield results in rehabilitating the sinner. Under no circumstances is it permissible to use any violent means in speech, where the gentle approach could do the job.

 

too many of you throw around this idea of amr bil maruuf wa nihi anil munkar as though it is some easy to grasp concept that anyone with a basic understanding of Islam can do.  maybe sometimes the process is simple and clear-cut, but i think most of the time the approach is much more nuanced than simply stating you are sinner in danger of going to hell.   allahu alim.