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In the Name of God بسم الله
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baradar_jackson

Question For My Fellow Revolutionaries

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(bismillah)

(salam)

As you all know, I am a loyal supporter of the Islamic Revolution and the Islamic Republic of Iran. This much is evident from my posts.

But I am afraid that the revolution is becoming far too nationalistic.

Take, for example, the issue of the Persian Gulf.

Ahmadinejad: Persian Gulf name irrefutable

Fri, 12 Mar 2010 06:37:26 GMT

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad insists the name of Persian Gulf is so indisputable that makes it beyond negotiation.

“The name of the Persian Gulf is so irrefutable that it is non-negotiable,” President Ahmadinejad said Thursday in a live televised program in Iran's southern Hormozgan province on the Persian Gulf coastline.

“Some claims lack legal and political values,” the Iranian chief executive added. “Those who make such claims say that they are under pressure to do so.”

President Ahmadinejad further pointed out that all credible maps in the world bear the name of the Persian Gulf.

“Nobody can change Iran's strong relations with the regional countries,” he also reiterated.

Despite the existence of historical and geographical documents that prove, beyond doubt, the authenticity of the Persian Gulf's name, some Arab states over the past years have spared no efforts to violate the international standards and distort the name of these waters to "Arabian Gulf."

Since Persian Gulf occupies a pivotal place in the Iranian history and culture, the false use of the name of the area has always provoked the annoyance of Iranian people and governments.

The historical and geographical name of the Persian Gulf has been endorsed and clarified by the United Nations on many occasions and is in use by the United Nations, its member states, and all other international agencies worldwide. The last UN Directive confirming the name of the Persian Gulf was on August 18, 1994.

The use of the distorted name of the Persian Gulf was also described as 'faulty' by the Eighth United Nations Conference on the Standardization of Geographical Names in Berlin on August 27, 2002.

HRF/MB

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=120641&sectionid=351020101

OK so maybe it is to be expected that an Iranian president would say such a thing. But what about this:

Iran threatens to bar or impound jets that use the term 'Arabian Gulf'

Iran has threatened to bar – and possibly impound – aircraft that fly into its airspace unless they use the name "Persian Gulf" on their in-flight monitors, the BBC reports. The threat comes on the heels of a report that Iranian officials expelled a Greek flight attendant working for an Iranian-owned airline for instead calling the body of water the "Arabian Gulf." The passenger got into a "verbal argument" with passengers on the subject, according to AFP.

"Due to his inappropriate and irresponsible behavior, the Greek steward of Kish Airline has been expelled," Gholam Reza Rezain, head of Iran's immigration police, is quoted as telling Iranian press, according to AFP. "He was summoned by the immigration police of Kish and his residency permit was cancelled." The airline has also been reprimanded, according to various media accounts.

Radio Netherlands Worldwide explains why the matter is contentious, writing "Iran insists that the body of water between the Arab peninsula and the Iranian plateau be referred to as the 'Persian Gulf.' However, since the 1960s, many Arab nations have insisted on referring to it as the 'Arabian Gulf.' At its 23rd session in 2006, the United Nations confirmed the name 'Persian Gulf' as the legitimate and official term to be used by its members."

Iran is taking the matter seriously, saying airlines have 15 days to eliminate "Arabian Gulf" references from Iran flights. If they do not, Iranian officials say airlines would be barred from the nation's airspace. Repeat offenders could have their jets impounded once they reach Iranian soil, according to the BBC.

Reuters says "the unusual move reflects tension in the region over Iran's dispute with the United States and its allies over its nuclear enrichment activities and the position of Arabian Peninsula states caught between ties to Washington and fear of Tehran." Reuters adds that "Gulf Arab states share U.S. anxiety that Iran seeks to develop a nuclear weapons capability. Most of them offer facilities to U.S. military forces and some have heavily purchased U.S. weaponry in recent years."

As for the dispute, the BBC says "numerous Arab airlines fly into Iran every day, not to mention Europeans and others, so it remains to be seen how they will respond" to Iran's possible enforcement of the issue. Stay tuned …

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/item.aspx?type=blog&ak=79971.blog

All of this indicates a dangerous nationalistic turn our country has taken. Such an uproar created as a result of a dispute over the name of a body of water? It's just so petty. It's unbefitting of the revolution.

Of course I understand the many historical factors in the past 31 years which have created -- or even necessitated -- the rise of nationalism in Iran. I am not trying to pin the blame on the IRI. I am just pointing out this shift and expressing my concern over it. What should be done to stop this process? What CAN be done? Is this simply inevitable? And if it is, will this populist Iranian nationalism invariably lead to bourgeois "Persian" nationalism?

(wasalam)

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I am really glad that the Islamic reply "attacking" those who use "Arabian Gulf". Although we are all Muslims, so we do not hide that some are Persians, some are Arabs, paki, and Turks. Secular state such as Turkey has done a lot to remove things that do not "fit" turkey. So they write Latin now, and they eliminate many Arabic and Persian words. I have also noticed that more young people say: Be Khuda name, instead of Bismillah rahman rahim in iran. It's something I understand, but maybe its just me. Regardless, it is difficult to get rid of the nationalistic feeling. Of course, so I'm sick of the persian pride the people who live in the United States.

But it's much more about the name, you and I know what's really behind it. It's all about oil. If the arrogant Arab countries (I refer those who do not use the persian gulf), begins to change the name, so they get more indirect power. After several years, who know ? So is the name officially changed, and then suddenly several Arab countries have even more power over the persian gulf.

The persian gulf referring just to Iran, and how many countries refer to the arabian gulf? Yes, many.

It's about power. It's about having control over oil and gas. And the name is very important to claime the right.

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(salam)

You are not alone and your concern is very legitimate.

I don’t think you can do much. You can point out specific instances and express your outrage but I am not sure it can change anything. Whatever you say will fall on deaf ears.

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i agree that the argument is petty, but let's not lose sight of the fact that it is the gulf arabs who are making this an issue.  and we all know it is a thinly veiled power play by weak client regimes.  let them squabble, all the better to control them with.   if european states can allow turkey into their close knit union, then certainly the persians and arabs can find common ground somewhere.  the arab states are getting played and they know it and they don't even care.

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i agree that the argument is petty, but let's not lose sight of the fact that it is the gulf arabs who are making this an issue.  and we all know it is a thinly veiled power play by weak client regimes.  let them squabble, all the better to control them with.   if european states can allow turkey into their close knit union, then certainly the persians and arabs can find common ground somewhere.  the arab states are getting played and they know it and they don't even care.

Of course the root of this dispute is undeniable. Ronald Reagan started using the term "Arab Gulf" after the revolution as a means of spiting Emam Khomeini (as if Emam Khomeini cared about such things). After that, the Gulf Arab countries recognized that in the absence of a submissive Iran, they had been promoted to the position of supreme house negro. So they took advantage and also started using the term.

My issue is not with the root of the dispute, but with the fact that the IRI has played into the hands of those who started it.

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BJ

I guess you are not making a valid point here. What else do you suggest? Ahmadinejad is only responding to nationalistic calls of a few fascists in Arabia, however it is a good idea that other officials should deal with this issue instead of him.

Muslims must not allow fitna to occupy and control them. To suggest changing Persian to Arab, Shiraz to Medinatul Bin Baz and Tehran to Ahl-e Saud Gardens is purely fascism and has no place in Islam. It is proven and well documented that the historical name is "Persian Gulf", period. Now, in situation like this if you let it go and nationalists and fascists are successful to achieve whatever they wanted then that is when it makes them feel empowered and energized.

FASCIST ARABS are the ones who are bringing up this idea to create mistrust and tension between Muslims, Shias and countries of the region. They are trying to provide evidence to the people that Iran is after a Persian empire. Where is this Arab nationalism when Palestine is burning in the hands of Zionism?

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BJ

I guess you are not making a valid point here. What else do you suggest? Ahmadinejad is only responding to nationalistic calls of a few fascists in Arabia, however it is a good idea that other officials should deal with this issue instead of him.

Muslims must not allow fitna to occupy and control them. To suggest changing Persian to Arab, Shiraz to Medinatul Bin Baz and Tehran to Ahl-e Saud Gardens is purely fascism and has no place in Islam. It is proven and well documented that the historical name is "Persian Gulf", period. Now, in situation like this if you let it go and nationalists and fascists are successful to achieve whatever they wanted then that is when it makes them feel empowered and energized.

FASCIST ARABS are the ones who are bringing up this idea to create mistrust and tension between Muslims, Shias and countries of the region. They are trying to provide evidence to the people that Iran is after a Persian empire. Where is this Arab nationalism when Palestine is burning in the hands of Zionism?

I am not defending Arab nationalism. I am saying that we shouldn't use nationalism to fight nationalism.

Edited by baradar_jackson

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in this case here to the Islamic Republic to do what they have done. Because that is the question. If the Islamic Republic does not answer back, so get several Arab countries soon to tell other countries that it is called the "Arabian Gulf". It's not just talk about the name, but also power. Then Iran will lose a total of influence when it comes to the Gulf.

These people are no matter to accuse the Islamic Republic of nationalists or whatever. Every time Iran supports Muslim countries, as many of them are Sunni Muslims, so they will be accused of spreading Shi'ite Islam. Look at countries like Morocco? Iran and Morocco organized a football match between them, finally excuse that they are afraid that the Iranians will spread Shiite Islamic faith ...

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I am not defending Arab nationalism. I am saying that we shouldn't use nationalism to fight nationalism.

Sorry If I did not make my point clear...I meant Iranians are being defensive in this case.. They use the truths & -logic & their RIGHT to fight nationalism.

They can not stay neutral ... they are dragged in to this 'name changing' drama. It is either to accept Arab's aggressive nationalism approach or to reject it...If Iranians suggested "Persian Gulf" as a new alternative then, we could say they are using nationalism to fight nationalism...But, the historical facts testify that "Persian Gulf" was indeed the name!!!!! And I agree that they must play their role smartly. This is a mistake when the Iranian president is participating in this conversation.

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Sorry If I did not make my point clear...I meant Iranians are being defensive in this case.. They use the truths & -logic & their RIGHT to fight nationalism.

They can not stay neutral ... they are dragged in to this 'name changing' drama. It is either to accept Arab's aggressive nationalism approach or to reject it...If Iranians suggested "Persian Gulf" as a new alternative then, we could say they are using nationalism to fight nationalism...But, the historical facts testify that "Persian Gulf" was indeed the name!!!!! And I agree that they must play their role smartly. This is a mistake when the Iranian president is participating in this conversation.

OK... so it's the historically accepted name. The question is: who cares? It is a body of water historically shared by Iranians and Arabs. Therefore, Arabs have just as much of a right to its name as we do.

Indeed aggression should be repelled, but only if that aggression causes tangible harm (for example: foreign corporations owning Iran's economy prior to the revolution). This "name" issue is the type of conflict that arouses petty nationalism.

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OK... so it's the historically accepted name. The question is: who cares? It is a body of water historically shared by Iranians and Arabs. Therefore, Arabs have just as much of a right to its name as we do.

Most of the Arab countries were all under the rule of the Persian Empire until they separated however the name ' Persian Gulf' always remained the same. At the end of the day Iran has control over the Gulf whether the Arabs accept this or not. Most people call the Gulf Persian apart from the Arabs. Even in their books they call it the Arabian Gulf... there are 7 Gulf Countries in total: Iran, United Arab Emirates, Oman, Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait.

Nobody should be fighting over this issue but what really innoys me is when Arabs don't even recall Iran as one of the Gulf Countires. Not all Arabs are like this but most of them are. I remember a couple of years ago when I was in Kuwat and then I saw a sign saying ' the Arabian Gulf Street'... I got so angry and then my cousin said yeah it's Arabian Gulf not Persian Gulf. We were disputing over this issue for one day but then I just go over it. Who cares because at the end of the day the name can't just change because for hundreds of years the Gulf was called ' Persian'.

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to be fair it should be called shia gulf or rafidi gulf cuz all the surrounding inhibitants almost are shias

kidding

srsly it dsont matter to me and if politicians want to play some political cess over a name , so be it , let them waste their time , the name wont change anything

it is historically called the persian gulf since most parts of it was concured in the past by persian empire but now adays most of the inhibitants around it are arabs even the poeple in the persian lands so it is stupid issue except if you like to play chess the midlle east way

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Salaam,

I too have been disturbed by this issue....

Iran should offer a third way, mutual solution...

Work throught he OIC to name it the Perso-Arab Gulf, or the Islamic Gulf, etc...

This kind of third option will win support from Muslims, and non-nationalist Arabs and Iranians...

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I am not a fellow Revolutionary but here my thoughts and experiences: We (US Army) always called it the Persian Gulf and the idea that Ronald Regan called it the Arab Gulf sounds like anti-American propaganda to me. I don't believe it. However, I did have a UNCW College Professor who would take off points on our papers if we used the term "Middle East". She wanted us to use the term "South West Asia." Other then that, I have never heard it referred to as the Arab Gulf. This is my first time hearing it.

As far as Jackson's concern, I think there is reason for concern. Before an issue is ever decided on a battlefield it has to be decided on a number of other arenas way before the first shot is fired. This is the first arena because if you can control the language, you can control the thought.

Note: I have heard the Red Sea called the Arabian Sea once or twice.

Edited by Spriglief

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I am not a fellow Revolutionary but here my thoughts and experiences: We (US Army) always called it the Persian Gulf and the idea that Ronald Regan called it the Arab Gulf sounds like anti-American propaganda to me.

Ummm... I heard that whilst listening to NPR (an AMERICAN media outlet). So I doubt it was propaganda.

And the US Navy website seems to be using the term Arabian Gulf: http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=22718

No offense, but you are an old man. A lot has changed since you were in the US Army.

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(salam)

Aside from a nationalistic claim for pride. There is actually an important reason for this 'political' issue. This is just a political issue, but it is a serious one, and Spriglief is correct. It's not just about putting a name on an area of water. The name has historically been "Persian Gulf", by attempting to change the name and contesting the name; it is also contesting a notion of political ownership of the body of water. It creates the potential for future conflicts, for encroaching further into Iranian sovereignty.

The Iran and Iraq disputes originated from disputing over a proper border line, disputing over a river that splits Iran and Iraq, by placing ethnic/nationalistic names you are indirectly claiming ownership of the territory.

These arab political groups are pan-arab ultra fascists. They want to claim ownership of everything, one day they will say all ajami must be kicked out (anybody remotely linked to an iranian heritage, could be 5% even) or one day they will say there is no such thing as kurdish people and gas thousands of kurds. This has already happened.

Not too long ago these arabic gulf states were practically inhabitable, it was sparsely populated, only because of exploitation of oil by foreign countries and their involvement did immigration occur and these states formed.

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(salam)

Aside from a nationalistic claim for pride. There is actually an important reason for this 'political' issue. This is just a political issue, but it is a serious one, and Spriglief is correct. It's not just about putting a name on an area of water. The name has historically been "Persian Gulf", by attempting to change the name and contesting the name; it is also contesting a notion of political ownership of the body of water. It creates the potential for future conflicts, for encroaching further into Iranian sovereignty.

The Iran and Iraq disputes originated from disputing over a proper border line, disputing over a river that splits Iran and Iraq, by placing ethnic/nationalistic names you are indirectly claiming ownership of the territory.

These arab political groups are pan-arab ultra fascists. They want to claim ownership of everything, one day they will say all ajami must be kicked out (anybody remotely linked to an iranian heritage, could be 5% even) or one day they will say there is no such thing as kurdish people and gas thousands of kurds. This has already happened.

Not too long ago these arabic gulf states were practically inhabitable, it was sparsely populated, only because of exploitation of oil by foreign countries and their involvement did immigration occur and these states formed.

OK. Let's attack them for their racism and xenophobia. Let's attack them for discriminating against ajam. Let's not concentrate on the name of this body of water!

Besides I only used this as one example. There are many more examples of nationalism taking over. Keep in mind that the only time Emam Khomeini ever asserted himself as an Iranian was in reference to the Iranian people's triumph over imperialism; it had nothing to do with language or ancient history or the name of the Persian gulf. So nationalism is a new phenomenon for our revolution. Even the smallest sign of it indicates a giant step in that direction.

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(salam)

Ummm... I heard that whilst listening to NPR (an AMERICAN media outlet). So I doubt it was propaganda.

And the US Navy website seems to be using the term Arabian Gulf: http://www.navy.mil/...?story_id=22718

No offense, but you are an old man. A lot has changed since you were in the US Army.

The US and Britain only do what's in their interests, right now Iran is a problem for them so they will do anything in the media and in covert ways to undermine Iran politically. Arabic countries are weak and dependent, the US, Britain play the balancing game. In the 70's and 80's, they threw their support behind Saddam, pan arabs, and ba'athis. They will do the same now. They are doing many things, on many angles, using the Internet, propaganda, brain washing, attempting to change demographics and people's notions, idea's, ethnic-strife, nationalism vs. nationalism. They are not afraid to use these at their disposal to control and tame the idiots that exist in the region.

ws

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(salam)

OK. Let's attack them for their racism and xenophobia. Let's attack them for discriminating against ajam. Let's not concentrate on the name of this body of water!

Besides I only used this as one example. There are many more examples of nationalism taking over. Keep in mind that the only time Emam Khomeini ever asserted himself as an Iranian was in reference to the Iranian people's triumph over imperialism; it had nothing to do with language or ancient history or the name of the Persian gulf. So nationalism is a new phenomenon for our revolution. Even the smallest sign of it indicates a giant step in that direction.

Every country has nationalistic people, especially in the governments. Some islamic revolutionary iranians were not nationalistic, but I see your point. I think it's unavoidable, there are nationalistic people in the government, and every country has nationalistic people. My point is not whether the name should be named Persian Gulf, because of pride. My point is, Iran should have the right to defend it's stance, because this is a political ploy. It's purpose is for encroachment of territory, nothing else. Nobody's going to live on the water, and the international lines are supposedly already there, but it's an encroachment of territory and sovereignty eventually.

I agree, Iran is moving more towards a nationalistic stance overall, but in general this whole region is like this. But I don't think they are being unjust in this matter.

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(salam)

Every country has nationalistic people, especially in the governments. Some islamic revolutionary iranians were not nationalistic, but I see your point. I think it's unavoidable, there are nationalistic people in the government, and every country has nationalistic people. My point is not whether the name should be named Persian Gulf, because of pride. My point is, Iran should have the right to defend it's stance, because this is a political ploy. It's purpose is for encroachment of territory, nothing else. Nobody's going to live on the water, and the international lines are supposedly already there, but it's an encroachment of territory and sovereignty eventually.

I agree, Iran is moving more towards a nationalistic stance overall, but in general this whole region is like this. But I don't think they are being unjust in this matter.

Brother I understand what you said in the previous post. I know this is a political ploy and who is behind it. But Iran is just falling into the trap.

Our defence of the name appears to be in the name of preserving cultural heritage, history, etc. (all the things which fascists attach themselves to). Why don't our leaders come out and say: "This is a ploy by the imperialists to incite division between Arab and Iranian, and to fan the flames of petty nationalism. We will not fall into this game, and our defence of the name Persian gulf is only a defence against the political ploys of the imperialists, and in no way an attack on our Arab brothers and sisters."

But they won't say that. They don't even talk like that anymore. Everything is just Iran, Iran, Iran. "Mellat-e sharif-e Iran." "Iran-e aziz." "Hamvatanan-e aziz." We have not reached the level of nationalism of the Arab countries but who is to say that we won't (in the future)?

Edited by baradar_jackson

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Brother I understand what you said in the previous post. I know this is a political ploy and who is behind it. But Iran is just falling into the trap.

Our defence of the name appears to be in the name of preserving cultural heritage, history, etc. (all the things which fascists attach themselves to). Why don't our leaders come out and say: "This is a ploy by the imperialists to incite division between Arab and Iranian, and to fan the flames of petty nationalism. We will not fall into this game, and our defence of the name Persian gulf is only a defence against the political ploys of the imperialists, and in no way an attack on our Arab brothers and sisters."

But they won't say that. They don't even talk like that anymore. Everything is just Iran, Iran, Iran. "Mellat-e sharif-e Iran." "Iran-e aziz." "Hamvatanan-e aziz." We have not reached the level of nationalism of the Arab countries but who is to say that we won't (in the future)?

(salam)

I didn't see those words in your posts, I don't follow the Iranian politics so I don't know what they say. But it's not the imperialists who are doing this, they're just playing the teams. It's the arab state governments claiming to change the name. Perhaps imperialists are behind it by encouraging arab state governments, but at the end of the day the arab state governments are against Iran and are choosing to encroach against Iran politically. But according to your two posts, I didn't see anything 'that' nationalistic, they were basic points.

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Ummm... I heard that whilst listening to NPR (an AMERICAN media outlet). So I doubt it was propaganda.

And the US Navy website seems to be using the term Arabian Gulf: http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=22718

In recent years, due to increased cooperation with Arab states of the Persian Gulf, various branches of the U.S. armed forces have issued directives to their members to use the "Arabian Gulf" when operating in the area ("Persian Gulf" is still used in official publications and websites), partially to follow local conventions, or simply to follow local laws that ban the use of "Persian Gulf", e.g. in the United Arab Emirates. Also for similar reasons, branches of American universities in the region have also dropped references to "Persian Gulf" in their teaching materials.[citation needed]

Australia military refer to the area as 'The Gulf'. They refer to the northern part of this gulf as Northern Arabian Gulf (NAG) during operations. [5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Gulf_naming_dispute

(bismillah)

(salam)

It has been called the Persian Sea or Persian Gulf for at least one thousand years. There are more than 20 maps at that wikipedia webpage^, if not more, that use the name Persian Gulf or Persicus or Perse. If you go there, click on each map to enlarge it.

It is not just a frivolous thing about the naming of this body of water. The Arab countries are trying to say that the islands in the Persian Gulf are Arab land and don't belong to Iran! If the IRI does not stand up for itself and maintain that this is the Persian Gulf, then those lands could become like Bahrain, stolen and occupied by foreigners. The disputes of the name, who owns the islands, the cancelling of the Islamic Solidarity Games, etc., have all been designed to stir up animosity among these neighbors. Yes, we know who benefits from this stirred up hostility.

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