12 Princes Of Ishmael

[AlayhisSalaam]

Asalaamu alaikum

Authu bilahi minaysh shaytani rajeem, Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

I used to be a Christian, and I remember this verse which used to confuse me and make me think (amongst many other verses!):

"As for Ishmael, I will bless him also, just as you have asked. I will make him extremely fruitful and multiply his descendants. He will become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation." Bible - Genesis Chapter 17, Verse 20

Is it just me or does this seem like a prophecy of the 12 Imams? Is this already known about by others or the first time anyone has seen this?

As we know, Muhammad (pbuh) is the direct descendant of Ishmael (as) and from Muhammad (pbuh) came the 12 Imams of Shi'a Islam.

I also wonder what our Christian brothers and sisters think about this verse of the Bible, and the facts of history which speak for themself. God in the Bible has told us, over 4,000 years ago, that from Ishmael (as) would come 12 Princes. In Islam, we believe the Bible as we know it today is not the same revelation that God originally revealed, because the people who handled the text did not record it accurately, or even blatantly lied and changed it to suit their own thoughts or desires. This fact (of alteration) is also confirmed by the Bible:

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" Jeremiah 8:8

But there still remains some wisdom, some truth, in the Bible, which is why we Muslims respect the Bible, but do not follow it because God has revealed the perfect Holy Qur'an which has not changed since it was originally revealed to Muhammad (pbuh), it was recited and memorized by his family and closest companions and it has been protected by God from alteration.

So, I think this is a prophecy in reference to the 12 Imams, which makes me inclined to learn about Shi'a Islam, as I have only ever really studied Sunni Islam, but have always been open-minded (alhamdulilah).

To finish, for our Christian brothers and sisters, I would also like to point out a couple more prophecies which the honest heart cannot simply deny, just as they cannot simply deny this prophecy of the 12 Princes from Ishmael (as)....

God came from Teman,

the Holy One from Mount Paran*.

Selah*

His glory covered the heavens

and his praise filled the earth.

- Bible - Habakkuk 3:3

*Mount Paran is a reference to the mountain near Mekkah, where the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) received his first Revelation of the Qur'an from God.

*Selah means, "Listen! This is very important!"... So God is telling us that the Holy One comes from Mount Paran, and that it is very important for us to know this and to not forget. The glory of this Holy One covers the heavens and his praise filled the Earth....

Who could this possibly be referring to?

Muslims say "Sullallahu alayhi wa salaam" (Peace be upon him) every time we say the name of Muhammad (pbuh). We pray 5 times every day and each prayer we declare that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of Allah (swt). Who else on Earth is more praised by more people? Not even Jesus (as) is mentioned and praised as much as Muhammad (pbuh). So unless you ignore Habakkuk 3:3 then you cannot explain how this is not a prophecy of Muhammad (pbuh).

And he said, The Lord came from Sinai,

and rose up from Seir unto them;

he shined forth from mount Paran,

and he came with ten thousands of saints:

from his right hand {went} a fiery law for them.

Yea, he loved the people;

all his saints {are} in Thy hand:

and they sat down at Thy feet;

{every one} shall receive of Thy words.

- Bible - Deuteronomy 33:2

Sinai is the holy mountain where upon Moses spoke with God.

For a map of the Sinai peninsula, click here http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Sinai-peninsula-map.jpg Mekkah is directly East

The eminent French Orientalist Maxime Rodinson, in his book 'Mohammed' writes on page 259: "At last he (Muhammad) set out with what was usual in Arabia at that time, and immense army: ten thousand men."

It is common knowledge in Islam as well as in History that Muhammad (pbuh) fought against the enemies of God at the battle for Mekkah with an army of 10,000 men.

How do we know this is referring to Muhammad (pbuh)? I'll only point to one major reason, there are many other reasons, but this will be sufficient inshallah.

Deuteronomy 33:2 and Habakkuk 3:3 both give the prophecy of the Holy One from Mount Paran.... Muhammad (pbuh) is the only person in history who has fulfilled these prophecies, as he came from Mount Paran and is a spiritual leader and the Seal of the Prophets.

Allahu 3alem, Allah knows best!

Jazakallah khayr, aslaamu alaikum

Edited March 2, 2010 by AlayhisSalaam

[Qa'im]

(salam)

They are the 12 sons of Ishmael (as).

"Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bore unto Abraham: And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth, and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadad and Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedmah. These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns and by their encampments; twelve princes according to their nations." (Genesis 25:12-16)

w/s

[AlayhisSalaam]

(salam)

They are the 12 sons of Ishmael (as).

"Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bore unto Abraham: And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth, and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadad and Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedmah. These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns and by their encampments; twelve princes according to their nations." (Genesis 25:12-16)

w/s

(salam)

(bismillah)

"O People of the Scripture, why do you argue about Abraham while the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed until after him? Then will you not reason?" - Qur'an 3:65

The Bible is not 100% accurate, that same verse you're quoting also says that Ishmael (as) lived to be 135 years old and doesn't mention him and Ibrahim (as) constructing the Ka'aba together as the Qur'an says:

"And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing:" 2:127

The Qur'an doesn't mention some of the things the Bible mentions, and vis-a-vis. We know from Qur'an and Bible that the scholars of the Bible changed the scripture. It could be that the Jews of old wanted Isaac (as) to be the sacrifice instead of Ishmael (as), and they couldn't explain the prophecy of the 12 Imams so they wanted to make up these 12 children and do away with the prophecy and say that Ibrahim (as) sent Ishmael (as) to a far away land and left him. If this is the case, then how can the Bible claim to say how many children Ishmael (as) had when the Bible says that he was sent away from Ibrahim (as) ? lol contradiction and conjecture

What do you think about this possibility?

[Qa'im]

(salam)

My point was, be careful when using the Bible. Remember that the books in the Old Testament were originally not divided in verses and chapters - you can't really pick and choose things you like from it, and then leave the rest. So if it says "12 princes", and then gives the description of these 12 princes, taking one part of it and saying the other part was fabricated, without proper evidence, is not a good argument. It reminds me of what some Christians do when they say the capture, trial, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus fulfills 300 OT prophecies - it's simply not true. If there was substantive evidence that the later part of the verse was fabricated, then your argument would be valid, but at this point we do not know if the 1st part is fabricated or not, if the 2nd part was fabricated or not, or if the entire text was authentic (as a whole) or not.

Furthermore, I find it unlikely that the 12 A'immah (عليه السلام) were mentioned at that period. There aren't many Prophets, for example, that the Old Testament talks about before their birth, let alone successors of Prophets. Isaiah talks about the Messiah, Malachi talks about John the Baptist, but I think that's pretty much it. Moreover, the Qur'an itself does not talk about the specific number of Imams, and its evident that even some from the early Shiite community did not know that there will be 12. It would be a bit strange to say that Moses and the Jews knew about the 12 Imams, but not many of the actual followers of the Imams.

Quote

What do you think about this possibility?

I think at this point it is nothing more than a plausibility, but to prove that it is likely is another story.

[Gangster]

Salam

There is hadith in Musnad Ahmad, that says there will be exactly Twelve Successors having Authority over this nation just like the number for Bani-Israel (ie. there was twelve successors for Musa (as)). The hadith is authentic and there is just a few disagreeing on one of it's narrators.

This hadith existed BEFORE the Twelve Imams (as) lived. There is also the famous Quraysh one, twelve Successors from Quraysh hadith, and it existed before passing of Twelve Imams (as). Those are considered authentic.

So I don't see why see prophecy of the bible but not hadiths?

The other issue is that TWELVE has been discussed in Quran in a way that has "they similarly... take lesson" way. With other verses, these become not so ambigious anymore.

For example, why the word "Captain" with "covenant" might seem ambigious until you pay attention to talks of boats in Quran, and ships that sail by his favor and what Nuh (as) said "By the Name of Allah is it's sailing and anchoring...". These clarify why the word is being use and what image God wants us to think of the what the covenant is and the 12 Captains of it in Bani-Israel, the Imams whom Guide by his Command, the Successors of Musa (as).

Then when you understand it, and you see it warning by way of the past and admonishing us by the past, you will know we have Twelve Captains and ship to board which is the Thaqalain and Wilayah of Allah made manifest by Rasool (saw) and built and founded by him.

Also the twelve rivers were meant as a lesson to Bani-Israel, and Quran sasy "if they went straight, we would have made them drink from abundant water", and there is emphasis on their injustice on themselves because they killed their spirits and cut off their life support when they rebelled against the Messengers (as), whom were of the family of Musa (as) and Harun (as) as other verses clarify.

If you read hadithal thaqalain, it's like the Quran is explaining hadithal thaqalain with various angles and it's as if hadithal thaqalain is explaining those verses as well.

"I am leaving you two weigthy things, Quran and my family. These two will not separate till they return to me at the pond".

[Qa'im]

(wasalam)

I didn't say the narrations about the twelve successors didn't exist, I'm saying they weren't necessarily commonly known by the early Shiite community. There are many sects that had split off from twelver tashayyu' during the life of the Imams, such as those who believed in the successions of Zayd (ra) and Muhammed ibn Isma'il, or those who believed the Imams Musa al-Kadhim (as) or Hassan al-Askari (as) went into occultation. In other words, yes, some authentic narrations about the 12 caliphs do exist, but the knowledge wasn't common enough to prevent these secondary and tertiary Shi'i sects from arising.

But really, that's not my point brothers. What I'm saying is, you cannot take the 12 princes statement as a prophecy of the 12 Imams, unless you:

a ) Prove that this verse is authentic (just like any hadith)

b ) Prove that the second verse is a fabrication

And for bonus points: c ) Bring forth a piece of evidence to say that the early Jewish community understood the verse in the manner you are presenting it

It's not a mystery that there were 12 A'immah (as) and that Ahl al-Bayt carried out the legacy after the Prophet (pbuh), and that this is evident in the Qur'an and Sunnah. But using the Bible to prove this is a whole different ballgame.

[Son of Placid]

"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" Jeremiah 8:8

This verse is used lots, or mis used. Can you please explain who is talking to whom, and which Scribes they are talking about?

Then you can research what happened to these Scribes and their false laws.

[Qa'im]

(salam)

Here is an explanation of Jeremiah 8:8

First of all that translation is a little off, or to put it more accurately, the translator has taken a tricky passage and translated it in a way that takes out all the trickiness. The literal translation is:

How can you say we are wise and the Torah of G-d is with us indeed behold for falsehood [he/it] made a false scribes' pen.

Quote

The quotation marks, commas, connective words, etc. are all the invention of the translator. Biblical Hebrew does not have quotation marks or other punctuation.

Rashi, probably the foremost Jewish exegete, has a pretty simple explanation of this verse, although it probably requires some explanation. As Rashi explains, "false scribes' pen" means "your prophet." That is, it means Jeremiah. If this confuses you, then imagine it is punctuated thusly:

How can you say, "We are wise and the Torah of G-d is with us. Indeed, behold -- for falsehood he made a false scribes' pen!" ???!!

or more idiomatically in modern English --

Where do you get off saying "We are wise and the Torah of G-d is with us? Look - this guy (Jeremiah) is lying!" ?!!

But I'll go a step further. In discussions with people it's often helpful to show that even if you adopt their assumptions their argument doesn't hold up. Let's assume you have a problem with Rashi for some reason. Furthermore, let's also assume your translator is correct in placing the bit about the false pen is "outside the quotation marks," so to speak, in other words, that Jeremiah is saying that some scribes have been lying. In other words, that the translation is essentially:

How can you say "We are wise and the Torah of G-d is with us"? Indeed, behold, he did that for falsehood -- a false scribes' pen.

First, under this assumption, who is Jeremiah saying is lying? The subject of the verb "asah" (did or made) is an unnamed masculine pronoun. If it's not Jeremiah himself, who is it? Is Jeremiah suggesting that G-d is lying? Seems doubtful. Second, under this assumption, what is Jeremiah saying that whoever is lying is in fact lying about? Your translation begs the question by assuming that the subject of the lie is the Torah itself, but it could be, for example, the claim by the then-leaders of Jerusalem that they were wise.

Let's step back and see if we can put any context on this, either from Jeremiah's own time, or from the following 2600 years.

First, Jeremiah's own time -- Jeremiah was in constant conflict with the leaders and inhabitants of Jerusalem of his day, both on matters religious (he said they weren't following the Torah) and political (he said they were foolish to rebel against Babylon). He spent his whole career advocating for greater Torah observance. His entire book is filled with pleas and warnings for the Jewish nation to increase its Torah observance. Would it make sense for him to suddenly suggest that the Torah had been mishandled by "lying scribes"? Which is more plausible - that a man who dedicated his life to advocating Torah observance would accuse the scribes who copied the Torah of lying, or the particular leaders of Jerusalem of his own time of lying?

Second, the years afterwards. Now let's bear in mind that the Jewish nation has carefully hand-copied and transmitted the book of Jeremiah -- which, by the way, absolutely excoriates the Jewish people for its failings -- for some 2600 years now. We have gone to great efforts to preserve this book. No translations of the Torah into any other languages were done for several hundred years after Jeremiah had died. If there was any chance Jeremiah was saying the Torah had been mishandled, it would have been very easy for us to "lose" the book, or even easier, to just tweak that verse, right? If you assume our scribes are changing the text of the Torah, it would have been very easy for them to change Jeremiah's accusation that they were doing exactly that, and nobody outside the Jewish nation would have ever known. But we didn't. Generations of scribes copied Jeremiah's accusation faithfully, and the same Jews who would go to their deaths to protect a burning Torah scroll read from Jeremiah in the synagogue. So one of the following must be true:

1. The verse means that the Torah has been altered by dishonest scribes. So we Jews are idiots. There's this verse in the Book of Jeremiah that disproves our entire religion and we just never noticed it. We're absolute morons. I think you can discount this; of all the anti-Jewish theories advanced over the years, nobody has ever accused us of stupidity.

2. The verse does not mean that the Torah has been modified by lying scribes. Rather, it means something entirely different. Maybe something that is not at all flattering to the Jewish nation, but we have never whitewashed our failings or suppressed internal criticism. Whatever the verse means, it doesn't mean that the Torah has been altered by dishonest scribes. Isn't this much more plausible?

[Gangster]

(wasalam)

I didn't say the narrations about the twelve successors didn't exist, I'm saying they weren't necessarily commonly known by the early Shiite community. There are many sects that had split off from twelver tashayyu' during the life of the Imams, such as those who believed in the successions of Zayd (ra) and Muhammed ibn Isma'il, or those who believed the Imams Musa al-Kadhim (as) or Hassan al-Askari (as) went into occultation. In other words, yes, some authentic narrations about the 12 caliphs do exist, but the knowledge wasn't common enough to prevent these secondary and tertiary Shi'i sects from arising.

But really, that's not my point brothers. What I'm saying is, you cannot take the 12 princes statement as a prophecy of the 12 Imams, unless you:

a ) Prove that this verse is authentic (just like any hadith)

b ) Prove that the second verse is a fabrication

And for bonus points: c ) Bring forth a piece of evidence to say that the early Jewish community understood the verse in the manner you are presenting it

It's not a mystery that there were 12 A'immah (as) and that Ahl al-Bayt carried out the legacy after the Prophet (pbuh), and that this is evident in the Qur'an and Sunnah. But using the Bible to prove this is a whole different ballgame.

(salam)

My post was not aimed at you bro. However, I thought of the issue, we see Yaqoub (as) sons were not perfect, how did all 12 turn to be princes? It seems like a huge irregularity, not normal. This is why it's more plausible that it was added by Sayateen forces to make ambigous, I would not be suprised also that if it originally predicted a Messenger and twelve princes, but they watered it down to that, with twelve sons. It's like how hadithal thaqalain got water away in Sahih Muslim.

salam

[ali the lion]

Asalaamu alaikumAuthu bilahi minaysh shaytani rajeem, Bismillahir Rahmanir RaheemI used to be a Christian, and I remember this verse which used to confuse me and make me think (amongst many other verses!):"As for Ishmael, I will bless him also, just as you have asked. I will make him extremely fruitful and multiply his descendants. He will become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation." Bible - Genesis Chapter 17, Verse 20Is it just me or does this seem like a prophecy of the 12 Imams? Is this already known about by others or the first time anyone has seen this?As we know, Muhammad (pbuh) is the direct descendant of Ishmael (as) and from Muhammad (pbuh) came the 12 Imams of Shi'a Islam.I also wonder what our Christian brothers and sisters think about this verse of the Bible, and the facts of history which speak for themself. God in the Bible has told us, over 4,000 years ago, that from Ishmael (as) would come 12 Princes. In Islam, we believe the Bible as we know it today is not the same revelation that God originally revealed, because the people who handled the text did not record it accurately, or even blatantly lied and changed it to suit their own thoughts or desires. This fact (of alteration) is also confirmed by the Bible:"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" Jeremiah 8:8But there still remains some wisdom, some truth, in the Bible, which is why we Muslims respect the Bible, but do not follow it because God has revealed the perfect Holy Qur'an which has not changed since it was originally revealed to Muhammad (pbuh), it was recited and memorized by his family and closest companions and it has been protected by God from alteration.So, I think this is a prophecy in reference to the 12 Imams, which makes me inclined to learn about Shi'a Islam, as I have only ever really studied Sunni Islam, but have always been open-minded (alhamdulilah).To finish, for our Christian brothers and sisters, I would also like to point out a couple more prophecies which the honest heart cannot simply deny, just as they cannot simply deny this prophecy of the 12 Princes from Ishmael (as).... God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran*. Selah* His glory covered the heavens and his praise filled the earth.- Bible - Habakkuk 3:3*Mount Paran is a reference to the mountain near Mekkah, where the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) received his first Revelation of the Qur'an from God.*Selah means, "Listen! This is very important!"... So God is telling us that the Holy One comes from Mount Paran, and that it is very important for us to know this and to not forget. The glory of this Holy One covers the heavens and his praise filled the Earth....Who could this possibly be referring to?Muslims say "Sullallahu alayhi wa salaam" (Peace be upon him) every time we say the name of Muhammad (pbuh). We pray 5 times every day and each prayer we declare that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of Allah (swt). Who else on Earth is more praised by more people? Not even Jesus (as) is mentioned and praised as much as Muhammad (pbuh). So unless you ignore Habakkuk 3:3 then you cannot explain how this is not a prophecy of Muhammad (pbuh).And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand {went} a fiery law for them. Yea, he loved the people; all his saints {are} in Thy hand: and they sat down at Thy feet; {every one} shall receive of Thy words. - Bible - Deuteronomy 33:2Sinai is the holy mountain where upon Moses spoke with God. For a map of the Sinai peninsula, click here http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Sinai-peninsula-map.jpg Mekkah is directly EastThe eminent French Orientalist Maxime Rodinson, in his book 'Mohammed' writes on page 259: "At last he (Muhammad) set out with what was usual in Arabia at that time, and immense army: ten thousand men."It is common knowledge in Islam as well as in History that Muhammad (pbuh) fought against the enemies of God at the battle for Mekkah with an army of 10,000 men.How do we know this is referring to Muhammad (pbuh)? I'll only point to one major reason, there are many other reasons, but this will be sufficient inshallah.Deuteronomy 33:2 and Habakkuk 3:3 both give the prophecy of the Holy One from Mount Paran.... Muhammad (pbuh) is the only person in history who has fulfilled these prophecies, as he came from Mount Paran and is a spiritual leader and the Seal of the Prophets.Allahu 3alem, Allah knows best!Jazakallah khayr, aslaamu alaikum

Dear brother, I have read the torah. What you say is very true. There are many parts of torah which are words of God and have not been altered. When God protects somethings none can change. what you mention about Ishmael 12 princes are the 12 IMAMS of shia Islam. And also the prophet of mount Hira is the prophet of Islam. You will be surprised if I tell you that the sacrifice of Imam Husein (the grandson of holy family of the prophet) in karbala has been foretold in Torah very clearly. Please read about the great sacrifice near river euphrates in torah.

Jazaj Allah

[AlayhisSalaam]

Allahu 3alem

Wa alaikum salaam

Jazakallah khayr everyone for your responses.

Inshallah whatever the truth is, may Allah (SWT) make it clear to all of us ameen

[yassameen]

thats actually was the first thought i had as i read that verse befor , our 12 imams , plus the rule of election is clearly mentioned in bible , it is not about flesh only

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

[placid]

Hi Yassameen,

It is interesting that you have quoted Romans 9 where Paul is voicing his disappointment with his own people, Israel, for rejecting God's new covenant and plan of salvation.

Paul had been a Pharisee and was among those who originally opposed Jesus before his conversion.

He goes on to say in Ch 10:

1. Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.

2. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

3. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

4. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

8. But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):

9. that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

10. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

Ch 9:33 says:

As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

This was a prophecy from Psalm 118:

21. I will praise You,

For You have answered me,

And have become my salvation.

22. The stone which the builders rejected

Has become the chief cornerstone.

23. This was the LORD’s doing;

It is marvelous in our eyes.

24. This is the day the LORD has made;

We will rejoice and be glad in it.

25. Save now, I pray, O LORD;

O LORD, I pray, send now prosperity.

26. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD!

--- (This last line was also fulfilled in the Triumphal Entry when Jesus rode into Jerusalem, and they said:

"Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord.")

Matthew Mark and Luke each record the 'Parable of the landowner,' where Jesus refers to Himself as the Son who is rejected, --- then refers to the Stone the builders rejected, Matthew 21:33-46.

Peter said in Acts 4:

8. Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel:

9. If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well,

10. let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.

11. This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’

12. Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:

18. For through Him we both (Jews and Gentiles) have access by one Spirit to the Father.

19. Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

20. having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

21. in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,

22. in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

And 1 Peter 2, where he commends the believers, and again confirms Jesus as the Chief Cornerstone:

1. Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking,

2. as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby,

3. if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious,

5. you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

6. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“ Behold, I lay in Zion

A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,

And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7. Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,

“ The stone which the builders rejected

Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8. and “ A stone of stumbling

And a rock of offense.”

They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9. But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

10. who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Notice that the verse you quoted, Romans 9:33, --- also 10:11, and 1 Peter 2:6 all end by saying:

And he who believes on Him ( the Chief Cornerstone) will by no means be put to shame.”

This is verified also in the Quran by verses like 2:62:

Pickthall: Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

Khalifa: Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

(While this may seem to be off topic, it is significant to the descendants of Abraham, through whom the world would be evangelized. I will add something on the twelve Princes of Ishmael later.)

Placid

[placid]

Hi Yassameen,

It is interesting that the twelve sons, or Princes of Ishmael were born a generation before the twelve sons of Jacob.

It was perhaps customary for women at that time who had no children to have children through a servant.

And Hagar was to be a surrogate mother.

Genesis 16:

1. Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. And she had an Egyptian maidservant whose name was Hagar.

2. So Sarai said to Abram, “See now, the LORD has restrained me from bearing children. Please, go in to my maid; perhaps I shall obtain children by her.” And Abram heeded the voice of Sarai.

3. Then Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar her maid, the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan.

4. So he went in to Hagar, and she conceived.

--- God had promised a son to Abraham and they had waited 13 years, so Sarah was anxious to have the promise fulfilled.

--- No doubt Sarah thought she would raise the child as her own but it didn't go well with the two women.

Later, in chapter 17, the promise is mentioned:

15. Then God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name.

16. And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her.”

17. Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?”

18. And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!”

19. Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.

20. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.

21. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.”

22. Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

21: 1. And the LORD visited Sarah as He had said, and the LORD did for Sarah as He had spoken.

2. For Sarah conceived and bore Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him.

3. And Abraham called the name of his son who was born to him—whom Sarah bore to him—Isaac.

8. So the child grew and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the same day that Isaac was weaned.

9. And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing.

10. Therefore she said to Abraham, “Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac.”

11. And the matter was very displeasing in Abraham’s sight because of his son.

12. But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called.

13. Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed.”

14. So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, he gave it and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away. Then she departed and wandered in the Wilderness of Beersheba.

15. And the water in the skin was used up, and she placed the boy under one of the shrubs.

16. Then she went and sat down across from him at a distance of about a bowshot; for she said to herself, “Let me not see the death of the boy.” So she sat opposite him, and lifted her voice and wept.

17. And God heard the voice of the lad. Then the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said to her, “What ails you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad where he is.

18. Arise, lift up the lad and hold him with your hand, for I will make him a great nation.”

19. Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. And she went and filled the skin with water, and gave the lad a drink.

20. So God was with the lad; and he grew and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.

21. He dwelt in the Wilderness of Paran; and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt.

--- When Hagar and Ishmael were sent away with only little provision, it seemed to be a tragedy for them, but they had to rely on God to sustain them. --- Hagar was no longer a servant and God had to teach her a lesson of reliance on Him.

Ishmael is never spoken of as being spiritual, but in this case of dire need, he prayed.

--- 'Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the lad.' --- Whether it was a plea, or a cry of dispair, or a complaint, God heard it.

Ishmael married an Egyptian so the Princes born to them would be three quarters Egyptian.

--- And they are named in chapter 25:

12. Now this is the genealogy of Ishmael, Abraham’s son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah’s maidservant, bore to Abraham.

13. And these were the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: The firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; then Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam,

14. Mishma, Dumah, Massa,

15. Hadar, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah.

16. These were the sons of Ishmael and these were their names, by their towns and their settlements, twelve princes according to their nations.

17. These were the years of the life of Ishmael: one hundred and thirty-seven years; and he breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his people.

18. (They dwelt from Havilah as far as Shur, which is east of Egypt as you go toward Assyria.)

--- Notice how God had blessed them as He promised, --- 'by their towns and their settlements, TWELVE PRINCES ACCORDING TO THEIR NATIONS.

--- And their territory in Arabia was 'from Havilah as far as Shur, which is east of Egypt as you go toward Assyria.'

As I said, Ishmael had 12 sons and Isaac had two, Esau and Jacob. Jacob had 12 sons which would be a generation behind the sons of Ishmael. (Perhaps 30-50 years)

There is an interesting account of the Ishmaelites as wealthy traders during that time who came from Midian.

They were Ishmaelites by descendancy, but Midianites by location.

This is an account that involves the sons of Jacob who hated their brother Joseph and wanted to be rid of him.

16. So he (Joseph) said, “I am seeking my brothers. Please tell me where they are feeding their flocks.”

17. And the man said, “They have departed from here, for I heard them say, ‘Let us go to Dothan.’” So Joseph went after his brothers and found them in Dothan.

18. Now when they saw him afar off, even before he came near them, they conspired against him to kill him.

19. Then they said to one another, “Look, this dreamer is coming!

20. Come therefore, let us now kill him and cast him into some pit; and we shall say, ‘Some wild beast has devoured him.’ We shall see what will become of his dreams!”

21. But Reuben heard it, and he delivered him out of their hands, and said, “Let us not kill him.”

22. And Reuben said to them, “Shed no blood, but cast him into this pit which is in the wilderness, and do not lay a hand on him”—that he might deliver him out of their hands, and bring him back to his father.

23. So it came to pass, when Joseph had come to his brothers, that they stripped Joseph of his tunic, the tunic of many colors that was on him.

24. Then they took him and cast him into a pit. And the pit was empty; there was no water in it.

25. And they sat down to eat a meal. Then they lifted their eyes and looked, and there was a company of Ishmaelites, coming from Gilead with their camels, bearing spices, balm, and myrrh, on their way to carry them down to Egypt.

26. So Judah said to his brothers, “What profit is there if we kill our brother and conceal his blood?

27. Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, and let not our hand be upon him, for he is our brother and our flesh.” And his brothers listened.

28. Then Midianite traders passed by; so the brothers pulled Joseph up and lifted him out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty shekels of silver. And they took Joseph to Egypt.

Isn't it interesting that the Ishmaelites were the means of taking Joseph to Egypt where he, a Jew, became Governor of Egypt.

Also notice that at this time the sons of Jacob were shepherds and herdsmen, while the Ishmaelites had become seemingly wealthy traders (v 25).

--- However, I doubt that you can claim a descendancy from the twelve sons of Ishmael to the Imams.

--- Twelve is such a commonly used number in the Scripture, as well as in various applications like the twelve months of the year, that there is perhaps no historical or hereditory identification.

--- It probably followed the pattern of the Twelve tribes of Israel (OT), and the Twelve Apostles (NT), so may have no greater significance than that.

Placid

[yassameen]

(äúÈÇíæÊ) ( נבית ) .Nebajoth

æ (ÞóíÏÇÑ) ( קדר ) ) .Kedar

æ (ÃÏÈÆíá) ( אדבאיל ) ) .Adbeel

æ (ãöÈúÓÇã) ( מבשׂם )) .Mibsam

æ (ãöÔãÇÚ) ( משׁמאע ) ) .Mishma

æ (ÏæãÉ) ( דומא ) .Dumah

æ (ãóÓóøÇ) ( משׂא ) ) .Massa

æ (ÍóÏóÏ) ( חדד ) ) . Hadar

æ (ÊóíãÇ) ( תימא )) .Tema

æ (íúØæÑ) ( יטר ) ) .Jetur,

æ (äÇÝíÔ) ( נאפישׁ ) ) .Naphish

æ (ÞóíÏãå) ( קדמה ) ) .Kedemah.

these are the names in arabic and herbrw just for fun

i just discover that theer is a herbrew version of bible an it is a bit diffrent than the english one

by the way who translated that verse about stone , i didnt get it at all , what it suppose to mean ?

back to the topic , you might be right , i dont know much about bible so i wont talk about what i dont know

hmm here is an arabic article about the same topic , a comparision between bible story and quranic story , iam sorry but it is in arabic

http://www.al-hadj.com/ar/index.php?part=library/15/001&id=14

.

[Shia Shahid]

Actually the 12 princes are NOT the 12 imams, they are the ancestors of the 12 Ishmaelite tribes, just like there were 12 Israelite tribes.

The 12 princes were real people who lived long before the Imams. One of the 12 was "Kedar" (real semitic/Arabic name, Qaydar), he was very early ancestor of Muhammad (saw) and another bible verse mentions a prophecy of a time when the house of Kedar will be given supremacy over all of God's true believers. The House of Kedar is none other than the Bani Hashim, and the Ahlul bayt. And the Mahdi is therefore also a descendant of Kedar.

It's not surprising that there were 12 princes from Ishmael, the number 12 is repeated several times in the history of the Abrahamic tradition, of which Muhammad's Ummah (Islam) is the final, complete iteration.

You want bible prophecies about Islam and the Mahdi? Here you go.

Isaiah 41:

1 "Be silent before me, you islands!

Let the nations renew their strength!

Let them come forward and speak;

let us meet together at the place of judgment.

2 "Who has stirred up one from the east,

calling him in righteousness to his service?

He hands nations over to him

and subdues kings before him.

He turns them to dust with his sword,

to windblown chaff with his bow.

3 He pursues them and moves on unscathed,

by a path his feet have not traveled before.

4 Who has done this and carried it through,

calling forth the generations from the beginning?

I, the LORD -with the first of them

and with the last—I am he."

Isaiah 42:

1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold,

my chosen one in whom I delight;

I will put my Spirit with him [note that Jesus (as) will appear with the Mahdi, and he's called Ruhollah, "Spirit of God"]

and he will bring justice to the nations.

2 He will not shout or cry out,

or raise his voice in the streets.

3 A bruised reed he will not break,

and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.

In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;

4 he will not falter or be discouraged

till he establishes justice on earth.

In his law the islands will put their hope."

5 This is what God the LORD says—

he who created the heavens and stretched them out,

who spread out the earth and all that comes out of it,

who gives breath to its people,

and life to those who walk on it:

6 "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;

I will take hold of your hand.

I will keep you and will make you

to be a covenant for the people

and a light for the Gentiles,

7 to open eyes that are blind,

to free captives from prison

and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness. [the Jahiliyyah is like darkness or lack of knowledge of the divine]

8 "I am the LORD; that is my name!

I will not give my glory to another

or my praise to idols.

9 See, the former things have taken place,

and new things I declare;

before they spring into being

I announce them to you."

10 Sing to the LORD a new song,

his praise (hamd) from the ends of the earth,

you who go down to the sea, and all that is in it,

you islands, and all who live in them.

11 Let the desert and its towns raise their voices;

let the settlements where Kedar lives rejoice.

Let the people of Sela sing for joy;

let them shout from the mountaintops.

12 Let them give glory to the LORD

and proclaim his praise in the islands.

Edited March 14, 2010 by Shia Shahid

[yassameen]

shia shahid , if am to read bible as if iam reading quran then i would not consider the 12 sones of ismaeal nor the tribes they form as princes or great nation

but anyhow , i wont argue alot about it , great nation should be a great nation arabs are not great nation they are not even a nation

and why would god bother to tell ibrahim about how many grandchildren he would get ?to make him happy ?and why is that mentioned in bible ?

Placid i still dont get the idea of the cornerstone though i've read about daniel prophecy and the grape farm part in bible but why do builders exclude it ? who are they and how they exclude it ? or refuse it

[yonus]

Actually shia tie islam with christianity and judaism and also because the prophet mentioned that :

#6448

Abu Said Alkhudri reported Allah's messenger (May peace be upon him)

as saying: You would tread the same path as was trodden by those

before you inch by inch and step by step so much so that if they had

entered into the hole of the lizard, you would follow them in this

also. We said: Allah's messenger, do you mean Jews and Christians

(by your words)"those before you"? He said: Who else(than those two

religious groups)?

Hadith 12 : Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "The (Islamic) religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh .

Shia believe the twelve imam are appointed by God and the twelve of bany israel also appinted by God .

5:12] Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We raised among them twelve chieftains, and Allah said: Lo! I am with you. If ye establish worship and pay the poor-due, and believe in My messengers and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow. Whoso among you disbelieveth after this will go astray from a plain road.

[yassameen]

that hadith is a negative one . it is not shia who would follow step by step christians and jews . dont mix things togather

it is not shia who would legalis the illigal nor illigalized the legal , not the shia who hides knowldge from people , not shia who change their fatwas and stance according to sultans wishes

on the other hand moses jesus mohammad and all of the prophets across the globe came with one religion so no surprise if they look alike

[placid]

Hi Yassameen,

Quote from your above post.:

Placid i still dont get the idea of the cornerstone though i've read about daniel prophecy and the grape farm part in bible but why do builders exclude it ? who are they and how they exclude it ? or refuse it

--- When they built a building of stone they would cut a perfect stone to put on the main corner of the foundation. It was cut square on all sides so that it was the perfect beginning of the building as the sides and walls were made even with the cornerstone.

If the cornerstone was not square and you were using it as a guide for the walls of the builsing, the opposite corner would be off by the degree the stone was off.

The application was made that Jesus was the Perfect Cornerstone for the New Covenant with Israel.

The word 'Covenant' means --- agreement, or testament, --- Thus the 'New Testament' was the new 'Covenant' , or the new 'agreement' that God made with Israel

The prophecy about this New Covenant or Testament was written in Jeremiah 31:

31. “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

32. not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.

33. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

34. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

This was the new Covenant or agreement, which is called 'The New Testament'.

--- God sent His Son, Jesus who was not born of a human father so was without sin.

God said, "I will put My law in their minds and write it on their hearts. This was the Holy Spirit of God that was given to the believers on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.

The idea was that Jesus was the Cornerstone of the New Covenant, or New Testament, but the Pharisees and Jewish Heirarchy rejected Him as the Prophet of God, --- so the saying was that 'the Stone (Jesus) which the builders (the Pharisees and Jewish Heirarchy) rejected, has become the Chief Cornerstone.'

This is expressed in the following verses as new believers become 'living stones' in the Spiritual Temple of the Lord.

Ephesian 2:21

19. Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

20. having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

21. in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,

22. in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Placid

[yassameen]

alright , i thought the chief corner stone was ismaeil since he was non jew right ? so the builders rejected him as prophet or divine nor his progeny inlike jesus who was technically jew

plus jews killed many other prophets beside jesus no ? so why he would be special ?

the verses that states that christ was the chief stone was said after he was dead but jesus himself didnt say iam the chief corner stone no ?

Parable of the Evil Tenants

33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. 34When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

35“The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38“But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40“Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

41“He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet

so jesus didnt say i would take that away from you nor that iam the cornerstone , he didnt said i was given that , he said that the kindgdom would be taken away from you , jesus was prophet to jews he was sent to jews and those who belived in him were jews plus others

[placid]

Hi Shia Shahid,

I would like to comment on a few verses you used from Isaiah 42 in Post 16:

1. “Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,

My Elect One in whom My soul delights!

I have put My Spirit upon Him;

He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.

2. He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,

Nor cause His voice to be heard in the street.

3. A bruised reed He will not break,

And smoking flax He will not quench;

He will bring forth justice for truth.

4. He will not fail nor be discouraged,

Till He has established justice in the earth;

And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”

This was fulfilled in Matthew 12 when Jesus was teaching, preaching and healing, and the Pharisees plotted against Him. He used the OT prophecies to verify who He was:

14. Then the Pharisees went out and plotted against Him, how they might destroy Him.

15. But when Jesus knew it, He withdrew from there. And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them all.

16. Yet He warned them not to make Him known,

17. that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

18. “ Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen,

My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased!

I will put My Spirit upon Him,

And He will declare justice to the Gentiles.

19. He will not quarrel nor cry out,

Nor will anyone hear His voice in the streets.

20. A bruised reed He will not break,

And smoking flax He will not quench,

Till He sends forth justice to victory;

21. And in His name Gentiles will trust.”

In verse 4 above it says, 'The coastlands shall wait for His law.'

--- Jesus preached to the Jews, as the New Covenant was given to them first. He trained all His followers to be disciples (meaning 'disciplined' ones), and He chose twelve to continue after His death and take His message and 'laws of righteousness' to the Gentiles.

6. “ I, the LORD, have called You in righteousness,

And will hold Your hand;

I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,

As a light to the Gentiles,

7. To open blind eyes,

To bring out prisoners from the prison,

Those who sit in darkness from the prison house.

--- This verse goes with verse 1 where it says, "I have put My Spirit upon Him."

--- (Notice, the capital letters. --- My, meaning God, --- Spirit, meaning the Holy Spirit, --- and Him referring to His Servant, Jesus Christ, who He sent.

Isaiah 61 gives a Messianic prophecy:

1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,

Because the LORD has anointed Me

To preach good tidings to the poor;

He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,

To proclaim liberty to the captives,

And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

In Luke 4, this is recorded:

14. Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and news of Him went out through all the surrounding region.

15. And He taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all.

16. So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18. “ The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,

Because He has anointed Me

To preach the gospel to the poor;

He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,

To proclaim liberty to the captives

And recovery of sight to the blind,

To set at liberty those who are oppressed;

19. To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD.”

20. Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.

21. And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

8. I am the LORD, that is My name;

And My glory I will not give to another,

Nor My praise to carved images.

9. Behold, the former things have come to pass,

And new things I declare;

Before they spring forth I tell you of them.”

--- Notice verse 6, "I will give You as a covenant to the people, as a light to the Gentiles

And verse 9 says, "The former things have come to pass (the Old Covenant)

And new things I declare. Before they spring forth, I tell you of them.

Notice--- I will give You (the Servant, Prophet, Messiah) as (a new) covenant to the people.

Jesus said, "I am the light of the world," --- and certainly a light to the Gentiles.

The reference for the old and new covenant is found in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

According to the Bible dictionary, the descendants of Kadar were located in the northern part of the Arabian Desert.

They are mentioned later in Jeremiah 49:28-33.

Placid

[ali the lion]

There is a lot of difference when God says 12 Princes and normal human being says 12 Princes? It is beyond any doubt that the princess mentioned in bible are Godly appointed and not men's choices. Similarly when god says about a great sacrifice near river euphrates. The word 'Great' coming out from Gods mouth is not comparable to human's words. When God says Great Sacrifice it has real weight and not comparable to any other sacrifice.

[placid]

Hi Yassameen,

Quote from your above post:

so jesus didnt say i would take that away from you nor that iam the cornerstone , he didnt said i was given that , he said that the kindgdom would be taken away from you , jesus was prophet to jews he was sent to jews and those who belived in him were jews plus others

The Parable you included explains it. --- A Parable is an earthly story with a heavanly meaning, (or a Spiritual application).

The Parable of the Evil Tenants

33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. 34When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.

--- (This is a simple story that all the listeners would understand).

35“The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

--- (The Spiritual application is: --- The Landowner [God] sent His servants [the Prophets] and the evil tenants [the Jewish heirarchy who were disobedient to God] beat them and killed them. So He [God] sent His Son [Jesus] to them)

38“But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

--- (The Pharisees had already plotted Jesus' death and they knew that when He told this Parable it was aimed at them.

This is the Scripture that shows their intent, though it wasn't yet carried out. --- After Jesus raised Lararus from the dead, in John 11, this is recorded:

43. Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!”

44. And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

45. Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him.

46. But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them the things Jesus did.

47. Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, “What shall we do? For this Man works many signs.

48. If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation.”

49. And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all,

50. nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.”)

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

--- (Jesus asked this question to the crowd, who respnded with verse 41.)

41“He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they replied, “and he will rent the vineyard to other tenants, who will give him his share of the crop at harvest time.”

--- (This was the logical answer that the landowner would remove the evil tenents and give the vineyard to new trustworthy ones. --- Then Jesus quoted this prophecy from Psalm 118:22).

42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?

--- (Here Jesus refers to Himself [the Son] as the stone that the builders [the Pharisees] rejected in order to hold on to their position.)

43“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.”

--- (Then he directed His words to them saying, "The kingdom of God will be taken away from you [Pharisees] and given to a people who will produce its fruit. [The followers of Jesus] who were built on the foundation of Jesus Christ, the Chief Cornerstone.)

45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet

--- (Rather than the Pharisees believing in Jesus as the Prophet sent from God, they still rejected 'and looked for a way to arrest Him'. --- Then the Romans did 'take away their place' when they destroyed the Temple in 70 AD as well as the nation being scattered. However, the New nation of the New Covenant, flourished. --- The kingdom of God was taken from them and given to the Christians. --- And the Church is still bearing fruit.)

Placid

[texas_muslimah]

My head is now spinning! subhanallah!

This has been a really interesting thread....

To me however, the bible is confusing even to christians... they all interpret it differently, and so many things were written in parables and etc that it is so confusing even having been raised to know it... i think it can be dangerous and dare I say even can be a wasted effort to put that much thought and weight into the bible... it has clearly been tampered with...

[Son of Placid]

My head is now spinning! subhanallah!

This has been a really interesting thread....

To me however, the bible is confusing even to christians... they all interpret it differently, and so many things were written in parables and etc that it is so confusing even having been raised to know it... i think it can be dangerous and dare I say even can be a wasted effort to put that much thought and weight into the bible... it has clearly been tampered with...

I know what you mean by confusing at times, and there are no Hadeeths to explain it. Then again Hadeeth can be an iffy thing as well. They can be like dogmatic commentaries.

You should explain to me what is clearly tampered with.

[14candles]

Salaamu aleikum,

The imams (as) are higher than the prophets (as). They (as) were created before the prophets (as). Read this; http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/8.html

Imam Ali (as) is the divider between hell and heaven and he's not a prophet he's an imam. The rank of imam is higher than the rank of a prophet. Notice that prophet Ibrahim (as) had a rank as a prophet before he was ranked as imam.

It is noted that the prophet Jesus (p) will pray behind imam Mahdi Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã. Our imams are not simply successors, they are the reason for creation of mankind. Read hadith al kisa:

ÞóÇáó: ” ٱáÓøóáÇãõ Úóáóíúßó íóÇ ÑóÓõæáó ٱááøóåö! ٱáúÚóáöíøõ ٱáÇÚúáóìٰ íõÞúÑöÆõßó ٱáÓøóáÇóãó¡ æóíóÎõÕøõßó ÈöٱáÊøóÍöíøóÉö æóٱáÅößúÑóÇãö¡ æóíóÞõæúáõ áóßó: ’æóÚöÒøóÊöí æóÌóáÇáöí¡ Åöäøöí ãóÇ ÎóáóÞúÊõ ÓóãóÇÁð ãóÈúäöíøóÉð¡ æóáÇó ÇÑúÖÇð ãóÏúÍöíøóÉð¡ æóáÇó ÞóãóÑÇð ãõäöíÑÇð¡ æóáÇó ÔóãúÓÇð ãõÖöíÆóÉð¡ æóáÇó ÝóáóßÇð íóÏõæúÑõ¡ æóáÇó ÈóÍúÑÇð íóÌúÑöí¡ æóáÇó ÝõáúßÇð íóÓúÑöí ÅöáÇøó áÇöÌúáößõãú æóãóÍóÈøóÊößõãú.

Gabriel the Honest Archangel descended, "Peace be upon you, O Allah’s Messenger!" he greeted, "The Most High and All-high (Lord) conveys to you His greeting, expresses His special greeting and honoring to you, and says, ‘By My Almightiness and My Majesty I take this oath: I have not created any well-established sky, extended land, glowing moon, shining sun, revolving planet, flowing ocean, or moving on ark except for your sake and for your love.’

There are lots of hadiths, be it sunni or shia,

that have the prophet (p) mentioning each successor by their name.

There are a lot more to them than just successors, it's a shame people

only stick to their biographies as if they were no better than just a regular

person like you and I.

(salam)

My point was, be careful when using the Bible. Remember that the books in the Old Testament were originally not divided in verses and chapters - you can't really pick and choose things you like from it, and then leave the rest. So if it says "12 princes", and then gives the description of these 12 princes, taking one part of it and saying the other part was fabricated, without proper evidence, is not a good argument. It reminds me of what some Christians do when they say the capture, trial, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus fulfills 300 OT prophecies - it's simply not true. If there was substantive evidence that the later part of the verse was fabricated, then your argument would be valid, but at this point we do not know if the 1st part is fabricated or not, if the 2nd part was fabricated or not, or if the entire text was authentic (as a whole) or not.

Furthermore, I find it unlikely that the 12 A'immah (as) were mentioned at that period. There aren't many prophets, for example, that the Old Testament talks about before their birth, let alone successors of prophets. Isaiah talks about the Messiah, Malachi talks about John the Baptist, but I think that's pretty much it. Moreover, the Qur'an itself does not talk about the specific number of Imams, and its evident that even some from the early Shiite community did not know that there will be 12. It would be a bit strange to say that Moses and the Jews knew about the 12 Imams, but not many of the actual followers of the Imams.

I think at this point it is nothing more than a plausibility, but to prove that it is likely is another story.

[Hadi Ataei]

Salam Alaykum,

You are right. This verse not only tell us about the fact that our twelve beloved Imams (may God's peace and blessing be upon them all) are descendants of Ishmael. This verse also tell us that our beloved prophet Mohammad (may God's peace and blessing be upon him and his immaculate progeny) is from Ishmael. However, the jewish scholar, as they are experts in distorting the words and the truth, have this distorted this verse's translation as to hide the truth. Please notice the 'transliteration' of the verse Genesis 17:20.

ûl'yish'mäël sh'ma'Tiykhä hiNëh Bërakh'Tiy otô w'hif'rëytiy otô w'hir'Bëytiy otô Bi m'od m'od sh'nëym-äsär n'siyim yôliyd ûn'taTiyw l'gôy Gädôl

In all of the bibles' it has been translated as something similar to this:

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation."

The word mo'd mo'd is actually is a name. Can you guess which holy name this is? If you guessed Mohammad, then you are correct.

However, it seems to me the words fruitful, and great numbers are what they have translated Mo'd Mo'd as.

So, in conclusion, the verse not only gives the glad tidings of the twelve Imams,(pbuh) but also our beloved prophet (pbuhahf). So I think the correct translation should be something like this:

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father Mohammad of twelve kings, and I will make him into a great nation."

[Netzari]

10 hours ago, Hadi Ataei said:

 

ûl'yish'mäël sh'ma'Tiykhä hiNëh Bërakh'Tiy otô w'hif'rëytiy otô w'hir'Bëytiy otô Bi m'od m'od sh'nëym-äsär n'siyim yôliyd ûn'taTiyw l'gôy Gädôl

In all of the bibles' it has been translated as something similar to this:

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation."

The word mo'd mo'd is actually is a name. Can you guess which holy name this is? If you guessed Mohammad, then you are correct.

However, it seems to me the words fruitful, and great numbers are what they have translated Mo'd Mo'd as.

So, in conclusion, the verse not only gives the glad tidings of the twelve Imams,(pbuh) but also our beloved prophet (pbuhahf). So I think the correct translation should be something like this:

"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father Mohammad of twelve kings, and I will make him into a great nation."

This is incorrect. You assert that "Jewish scholars are experts at distorting the words and truth", yet you find a need to insert Muhammad into a verse in which he doesn't appear? That's called irony, my friend.

I don't claim to be an expert on Hebrew, but בִּמְאֹד מְאֹד (b'me'od me'od) is what your translation has rendered as "great numbers". מְאֹד means "very" or "exceedingly". בִּמְאֹד מְאֹד would then mean "very very much" or "very exceedingly". A more thorough literal translation might look something like this:

וּלְיִשְׁמָעֵאל שְׁמַעְתִּיךָ הִנֵּה בֵּרַכְתִּי אֹתוֹ וְהִפְרֵיתִי אֹתוֹ וְהִרְבֵּיתִי אֹתוֹ בִּמְאֹד מְאֹד שְׁנֵים עָשָׂר נְשִׂיאִם יוֹלִיד וּנְתַתִּיו לְגוֹי גָּדוֹל

וּלְיִשְׁמָעֵאל -- And for Ishmael שְׁמַעְתִּיךָ -- I have heard you הִנֵּה -- behold בֵּרַכְתִּי אֹתוֹ -- I have blessed him וְהִפְרֵיתִי אֹתוֹ -- and will make fruitful him וְהִרְבֵּיתִי אֹתוֹ -- and increase/multiply him בִּמְאֹד מְאֹד -- in very exceedingly שְׁנֵים עָשָׂר -- two [and] ten נְשִׂיאִם -- princes/rulers יוֹלִיד -- beget/father וּנְתַתִּיו -- and make/accomplish [I don't know this word] לְגוֹי גָּדוֹל -- his nation great.

Salam and Shalom

[Hadi Ataei]

You seem to have more knowledge of Hebrew than I do, so I take your word for it. 

Also, could you please tell me what the word "b'me'od me'od" means? Could it be referring to a name or a person? What would the literal meaning of it be?

Thank you,

-- Hadi Ataei

[aflyer]

On 3/2/2010 at 8:32 AM, AlayhisSalaam said:

"As for Ishmael, I will bless him also, just as you have asked. I will make him extremely fruitful and multiply his descendants. He will become the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation." Bible - Genesis Chapter 17, Verse 20

I was just reading this last night and the same thought occurred to me as you and I stumbled on your thread. As someone else mentioned Ishmael also had 12 sons so as far as I can tell with my limited knowledge of the subject I suppose it could be referring to either on or both. I am interested if there are other views on this.

I would however point out that your reasoning of the Bible scriptures is not consistent. It is illogical to presume that its scriptures are fallible but then use them to prove your belief. I don't outright refute your interpretation that Habakkuk 3:3 is referring to your Prophet; however I would suggest, this verse is referring to the law being given to Moses as recorded in the Bible. As far as I can tell a third reasonable understanding of this verse could be that the prophesy is not yet fulfilled.

I would agree it is clear Islam teaches that the Bible is not to be trusted. Hypothetically speaking I would also suggest a reasonable textual interpretation of the Bible (under the presumption it is true) would invalidate the Koran - that is because the Bible and Koran have disagreements. It would seem that there is no way to discern one is truth over the other without presupposing on faith that one of them is true and building your belief system from that, that is unless you have some extra scriptural knowledge (which I don't).

If the scriptures of the Bible were purposefully falsified they are much different than I would expect. I would hardly expect verses like 2 Kings 21:12-14 to read as they do and not have been changed.

Peace be to you,

-A

[Son of Placid]

On 1/27/2017 at 9:39 AM, aflyer said:

If the scriptures of the Bible were purposefully falsified they are much different than I would expect. I would hardly expect verses like 2 Kings 21:12-14 to read as they do and not have been changed.

Peace be to you,

-A

One would also expect to see Jesus saying, "I am God", or at least mention His position in a trinity. 

[aflyer]

22 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

One would also expect to see Jesus saying, "I am God", or at least mention His position in a trinity. 

I agree, you can't be dogmatic about what is not there.

[whirlingmerc]

No...  it is a prophesy of 12 sons... just as Jacob had 12 sons

[Abdul Batin Bey]

 I wouldn't say that the Bible and the Qur'an contradict one another but they are saying the same thing from different view points. It wouldn't make sense for the Qur'an to retell the entire story of Abraham (A.S.) because people in Muhammad's (A.S.) time already new the story. Instead the Qur'an tells aspects that may not be known to stress a certain point. Ishmael (A.S.) could have been sent away after he build the Ka'ba with his father. Just because he was sent away doesn't mean people lost touch, the Bible also says that at some point Isaac (A.S.) lived with Ishmael (A.S.) for a period of time. 

  The Bible (Tanakh more specific) and the Qur'an has many layers to it, some plain, some not. I think that the Twelve Princes of Ishmael is telling of the Twelve Tribes of Ishmaelites, the twelve names giving were the heads of each tribe. This doesn't mean a connection can't be made between the 12 Imams but you'd have to study what we know of the Ishmalite Tribal leaders and see if they match with the Imams.