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Vilayatul Faqih

Hussayn (ra) Forbidded Matam

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Towards the final moments of his blessed life Husayn ibn Ali (ra) comforted his sister Zaynab bint Fatima (ra) after she wept, beat her face and tore her garment by the following words: "Sister, fear Allah and take comfort in the consolation of Allah". "Sister, I swear to you and I always keep my oaths - that you must not tear your clothes, nor scratch your face, nor cry out with grief or loss when I am killed"...

Shaykh al-Mufid, Kitaab Al Arshad, P349.

Why do the shia's ignore such words of wisdom from the Imam himself recorded in their own books??

Can we declare that the emotional facade of self mutilation & lamentation practised by the shia today is contradictory to the teachings of their 'divine infallible imam''??

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Towards the final moments of his blessed life Husayn ibn Ali (ra) comforted his sister Zaynab bint Fatima (ra) after she wept, beat her face and tore her garment by the following words: "Sister, fear Allah and take comfort in the consolation of Allah". "Sister, I swear to you and I always keep my oaths - that you must not tear your clothes, nor scratch your face, nor cry out with grief or loss when I am killed"...

Shaykh al-Mufid, Kitaab Al Arshad, P349.

Why do the shia's ignore such words of wisdom from the Imam himself recorded in their own books??

Can we declare that the emotional facade of self mutilation & lamentation practised by the shia today is contradictory to the teachings of their 'divine infallible imam''??

sorry your argument has no bearing.

Brother slave_of_hussain already refuted this here

why did Aisha beat herself?

salam

Edited by SLAVE_OF_ALLAH

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The book you refer above may be by a prominent writer of Sunni Brothers but there is no any that kind of Riwayat in Shia's books. Further if tearing or crying is prohibited in Islam then why Prophet Yaqoob (a.s) was got blind due to tearing and crying every moment in the love of his beloved son Prophet Yousuf (a.s) why Allah not stopped Hazrat Yaqoob (a.s) from crying in fact that he was Prophet and also knows that his son is safe? but instead Allah condems prophet Yaqoob (a.s) practice Allah wrote this story with pround in Quran.

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sorry your argument has no bearing.

Brother slave_of_hussain already refuted this here

why did Aisha beat herself?

salam

I'll check the other forum topic shortly but i dont understand when you justify your actions by qouting the actions of Ayesha (ra) - do you consider her actions as Hujja??

Are you not upon the manhaj of Ahle BAyt? - If you claim to be then your source of reference should be your Infalliable imams not personalities you consider sinful, treacherous etc...

What i find is intriguing is when the shia realise the proof within their sources actually contradicts them, they starkly deny itsexistance and jump to find proofs from incomprehendable sources....

Another point is when ahlus sunnah find an action of a companion and the statement of the Prophet, the latter is accepted..

Al-Bukhaari (1294) and Muslim (103) narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “He is not one of us who strikes his cheeks, rends his garment, or cries with the cry of the Jaahiliyyah.”

This is also what Husayn (ra) preached as was recorded by Shaykh al Mufid in his book Kitaab al Arshad -

"Sister, I swear to you and I always keep my oaths - that you must not tear your clothes, nor scratch your face, nor cry out with grief or loss when I am killed"...

Shaykh al-Mufid, Kitaab Al Arshad, P349.

Do the shia not hold this book as a legitimate shia source???

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I'll check the other forum topic shortly but i dont understand when you justify your actions by qouting the actions of Ayesha (ra) - do you consider her actions as Hujja??

Are you not upon the manhaj of Ahle BAyt? - If you claim to be then your source of reference should be your Infalliable imams not personalities you consider sinful, treacherous etc...

What i find is intriguing is when the shia realise the proof within their sources actually contradicts them, they starkly deny itsexistance and jump to find proofs from incomprehendable sources....

Another point is when ahlus sunnah find an action of a companion and the statement of the Prophet, the latter is accepted..

Al-Bukhaari (1294) and Muslim (103) narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “He is not one of us who strikes his cheeks, rends his garment, or cries with the cry of the Jaahiliyyah.”

This is also what Husayn (ra) preached as was recorded by Shaykh al Mufid in his book Kitaab al Arshad -

"Sister, I swear to you and I always keep my oaths - that you must not tear your clothes, nor scratch your face, nor cry out with grief or loss when I am killed"...

Shaykh al-Mufid, Kitaab Al Arshad, P349.

Do the shia not hold this book as a legitimate shia source???

forget aisha, he refutes this in post 13.

No i could not care if aisha did it or not, I dont rely on her as its irrelevant, Aisha also led a war which caused deaths to thousands of muslims so you can see i dont put to much hope in her when it comes to my faith but thats an issue for another day so ill stick to the topic at hand.

Edited by SLAVE_OF_ALLAH

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Towards the final moments of his blessed life Husayn ibn Ali (ra) comforted his sister Zaynab bint Fatima (ra) after she wept, beat her face and tore her garment by the following words: "Sister, fear Allah and take comfort in the consolation of Allah". "Sister, I swear to you and I always keep my oaths - that you must not tear your clothes, nor scratch your face, nor cry out with grief or loss when I am killed"...

Shaykh al-Mufid, Kitaab Al Arshad, P349.

Why do the shia's ignore such words of wisdom from the Imam himself recorded in their own books??

Can we declare that the emotional facade of self mutilation & lamentation practised by the shia today is contradictory to the teachings of their 'divine infallible imam''??

Salaam Brother.

There is an explanation given to this hadith.

Imam Husayn (a.s) did not want zaynab (a.s) to show any sighns of grief specifically the moment Imam Husayn (as) is killed because Imam Husayn (as) did not want Zaynab (a.s) to show any sighns of weakness infront of the enemies and infront of the other Woman and children because they all looked towards her. Hence, Imam (a.s) said "...... when I am killed"

Hence, this hadith was to be applied my Zaynab (as) the moment when Imam (a.s) was killed. Not after. If latom was forbidden Imam Ali (as) would of told zaynab (as) not to do latom when he (as) was on his death bed.

When you read a hadith for a Masoom (a.s) you must take into consideration the time and the context the hadith was said in. Brother, you see we have ahadith from Imam Sadiq (a.s) saying you can beat your chest and face on Imam Husayn (a.s) , therefore it's impossible Imam sadiq (a.s) will contradict Imam Husayn (a.s).

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Salaam Brother.

There is an explanation given to this hadith.

Imam Husayn (a.s) did not want zaynab (a.s) to show any sighns of grief specifically the moment Imam Husayn (as) is killed because Imam Husayn (as) did not want Zaynab (a.s) to show any sighns of weakness infront of the enemies and infront of the other Woman and children because they all looked towards her. Hence, Imam (a.s) said "...... when I am killed"

Hence, this hadith was to be applied my Zaynab (as) the moment when Imam (a.s) was killed. Not after. If latom was forbidden Imam Ali (as) would of told zaynab (as) not to do latom when he (as) was on his death bed.

When you read a hadith for a Masoom (a.s) you must take into consideration the time and the context the hadith was said in. Brother, you see we have ahadith from Imam Sadiq (a.s) saying you can beat your chest and face on Imam Husayn (a.s) , therefore it's impossible Imam sadiq (a.s) will contradict Imam Husayn (a.s).

Brother will all due respect can you present to me where you found this explanation of this hadith from? Please cite a bonafide shia commentator:

This is due to the fairness of taking and refuting the views of the authoritative shia figures...

Please don't tell me this is your own commantary of the hadith......

Edited by Vilayatul Faqih

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When you read a hadith for a Masoom (a.s) you must take into consideration the time and the context the hadith was said in. Brother, you see we have ahadith from Imam Sadiq (a.s) saying you can beat your chest and face on Imam Husayn (a.s) , therefore it's impossible Imam sadiq (a.s) will contradict Imam Husayn (a.s).

Any sahih hadith where Imams of Ahlul bayt (as) recommend to beat ourselves every year for Imam al-Hussain (as) ?

You mentioned this one in other thread:

æÞÏ ÔÞÞä ÇáÌíæÈ æáØãä ÇáÎÏæÏ ÇáÝÇØãíÇÊ Úáì ÇáÍÓíä Èä Úáí ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã¡ æÚáì ãËáå ÊáØã ÇáÎÏæÏ æÊÔÞ ÇáÌíæÈ

This is the complete narration:

ãÍãøÏ Èä ÇáÍÓä ÈÅÓäÇÏå Úä ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÏÇæÏ ÇáÞãí Ýí ( äæÇÏÑå ) Úä ãÍãøÏ Èä ÚíÓì ¡ Úä ÃÎíå ÌÚÝÑ Èä ÚíÓì ¡ Úä ÎÇáÏ Èä ÓÏíÑ ÃÎí ÍäÇä Èä ÓÏíÑ ¡ ÞÇá : ÓÃáÊ ÃÈÇ ÚÈÏÇááå ( Úáíå ÇáÓáÇã ) Úä ÑÌá ÔÞ ËæÈå Úáì ÃÈíå ¡ Ãæ Úáì Çãå ¡ Ãæ Úáì ÃÎíå ¡ Ãæ Úáì ÞÑíÈ áå ¡ ÝÞÇá : áÇ ÈÃÓ ÈÔÞ ÇáÌíæÈ ¡ ÞÏ ÔÞ ãæÓì Èä ÚãÑÇä Úáì ÃÎíå åÇÑæä ¡ æáÇ íÔÞ ÇáæÇáÏ Úáì æáÏå ¡ æáÇ ÒæÌ Úáì ÇãÑÃÊå ¡ æÊÔÞ ÇáãÑÃÉ Úáì ÒæÌåÇ ¡ æÅÐÇ ÔÞ ÒæÌ Úáì ÇãÑÃÊå ¡ Ãæ æÇáÏ Úáì æáÏå ÝßÝÇÑÊå ÍäË íãíä ¡ æáÇ ÕáÇÉ áåãÇ ÍÊì íßÝÑÇ ¡ Ãæ íÊæÈÇ ãä Ðáß ¡ ÝÇÐÇ ÎÏÔÊ ÇáãÑÃÉ æÌååÇ ¡ Ãæ ÌÒÊ ÔÚÑåÇ ¡ Ãæ äÊÝÊå ÝÝí ÌÒ ÇáÔÚÑ ÚÊÞ ÑÞÈÉ ¡ Ãæ ÕíÇã ÔåÑíä ãÊÊÇÈÚíä ¡ Ãæ ÅØÚÇã ÓÊíä ãÓßíäÇ ¡ æÝí ÇáÎÏÔ ÅÐÇ ÏãíÊ ¡ æÝí ÇáäÊÝ ßÝÇÑÉ ÍäË íãíä ¡ æáÇ ÔíÁ Ýí ÇááØã Úáì ÇáÎÏæÏ Óæì ÇáÇÓÊÛÝÇÑ æÇáÊæÈÉ ¡ æáÞÏ ÔÞÞä ÇáÌíæÈ æáØãä ÇáÎÏæÏ ÇáÝÇØãíÇÊ Úáì ÇáÍÓíä Èä Úáí ( ÚáíåãÇ ÇáÓáÇã ) ¡ æÚáì ãËáå ÊáØã ÇáÎÏæÏ æÊÔÞ ÇáÌíæÈ .

This narration is daif b/c of majhool narrators in the sanad. Syed al-Khoei said:

ÇáÓäÏ ÖÚíÝ ¡ áÌåÇáÉ ÎÇáÏ Èä ÓÏíÑ

w/s

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Brother will all due respect can you present to me where you found this explanation of this hadith from? Please cite a bonafide shia commentator:

This is due to the fairness of taking and refuting the views of the authoritative shia figures...

Please don't tell me this is your own commantary of the hadith......

See tanqih Sharh Al-Urwa Al-Wuthqa for sayed Al-khoei volume 9 page 231. al-Khoei (r.a) gives a shafi explanation on the hadith.

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See tanqih Sharh Al-Urwa Al-Wuthqa for sayed Al-khoei volume 9 page 231. al-Khoei (r.a) gives a shafi explanation on the hadith.

Brother i dont have this book - i will try my mate who is an imami shia and i will relay my findings after i have read up on the explanation of this hadeeth......

regards

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Any sahih hadith where Imams of Ahlul bayt (as) recommend to beat ourselves every year for Imam al-Hussain (as) ?

You mentioned this one in other thread:

This is the complete narration:

محمّد بن الحسن بإسناده عن أحمد بن محمّد بن داود القمي في ( نوادره ) عن محمّد بن عيسى ، عن أخيه جعفر بن عيسى ، عن خالد بن سدير أخي حنان بن سدير ، قال : سألت أبا عبدالله ( عليه السلام ) عن رجل شق ثوبه على أبيه ، أو على امه ، أو على أخيه ، أو على قريب له ، فقال : لا بأس بشق الجيوب ، قد شق موسى بن عمران على أخيه هارون ، ولا يشق الوالد على ولده ، ولا زوج على امرأته ، وتشق المرأة على زوجها ، وإذا شق زوج على امرأته ، أو والد على ولده فكفارته حنث يمين ، ولا صلاة لهما حتى يكفرا ، أو يتوبا من ذلك ، فاذا خدشت المرأة وجهها ، أو جزت شعرها ، أو نتفته ففي جز الشعر عتق رقبة ، أو صيام شهرين متتابعين ، أو إطعام ستين مسكينا ، وفي الخدش إذا دميت ، وفي النتف كفارة حنث يمين ، ولا شيء في اللطم على الخدود سوى الاستغفار والتوبة ، ولقد شققن الجيوب ولطمن الخدود الفاطميات على الحسين بن علي ( عليهما السلام ) ، وعلى مثله تلطم الخدود وتشق الجيوب .

This narration is daif b/c of majhool narrators in the sanad. Syed al-Khoei said:

السند ضعيف ، لجهالة خالد بن سدير

w/s

Salaam Brother.

First there is sahih hadith either saying latom is forbidden on Ahlu al-Bayt (as).

Secondly, it is stated in the history books (and this is an historical fact, historical facts dont need isnaad) that zaynab (as) did latom on Imam Husayn (as) in karbala, when she passed by her brother's body.

Thirdly, weakness of a chain doesnt mean the hadith is to be rejected. The scholars have divided a weak hadith into 15 types

Ayatullah Sheikh Muhammed Sanad says in his book al-Imamah al-Elahiya

ج ـ ان الخبر الضعيف لا يساوي الخبر الموضوع او المدلس وهذه نكتة قل الالتفات اليها، وهي احدى الاسباب التي ادت إلى ترك الأخبارالضعيفة. فاننا نسلم ان الأخبار الموضوعة المدلسة يجب طرحها واهمالها وتركها إذا عُلم وضعها وتدليسها حيث اتفق على أنه اذا ثبت كون حديث موضوعاً حرمت روايته لكونها اعانة على الاثم واتيان للفرية في الدين، وأما ما كان ضعيف السند غير الموضوع فلا بأس بروايته مطلقاً، نعم العمل على طبق مافيه يحتاج إلى جبر الضعف(1)، وقد وضع العلماء اعلى الله مقامهم طرق وقرائن لكشف الحديث الضعيف الموضوع عن غيره فمثلاً مجرد اتصاف الراوي بالكذب لا يعني وضع الخبر، فإن الكذوب قد يصدق، كما في وهب بن ابي وهب. كما انا نلاحظ ان طائفة كبيرة قد وصفت بالكذب لمجرد روايتها لأخبار المعارف.

فما ثبت وضعه وتدليسه من الأخبارالضعيفة يجب ردها وتركها اما الأخبار الضعيفة كلها فلا يجوز ردها خصوصاً ان لدينا ضوابط سهلة يمكن بواسطتها تمييز الوضع والتدليس كعرضها على المحكمات في الكتاب والسنة والعقل. وبالتالي لا يكون نقل الاحاديث الضعيفة تغريراً على المسلمين حيث ان الخبر الضعيف مهما بلغ شأنه لا يمكن ان يحرف المسلمين عن جادة المحكمات في الحجج الثلاث. ومن هنا تساهل القوم في نقل الضعاف لما لها من فوائد جمّة في الحجية، ولا مجال لتوهم اتحادها مع اخبار الوضع والدس

You see even though sayed al-Khoei weakened the isnaad he still accepted it he himself says

نعم استثنى الأصحاب من حرمة تلك الأمور الاتيان بها في حق الأئمة والحسين بن علي ، من لطم الخد وشق الجيب ، كما ورد في رواية خالد بن سدير

tanqih Sharh Al-Urwa Al-Wuthqa for sayed Al-khoei volume 9 page 231

You see this hadith does not condradict sunna and Quruan. Zaynab (as) performed latom in karbala and when Imam Ali (as) did not forbid her.

Edited by Slave of Husain

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You see this hadith does not condradict sunna and Quruan.

^How can you say it doesn't contradict the sunna when we have nothing sahih in our books which proves that its sunnah to beat ourselves for Imam al-Hussain. I don't mind accepting this narration if you can show any other sahih narration which recommend us to beat ourselves for Imam al-Hussain. But AFAIK, there isn't any.

Zaynab (as) performed latom in karbala and when Imam Ali (as) did not forbid her.

^Even this narration is daif.

w/s

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^How can you say it doesn't contradict the sunna when we have nothing sahih in our books which proves that its sunnah to beat ourselves for Imam al-Hussain. I don't mind accepting this narration if you can show any other sahih narration which recommend us to beat ourselves for Imam al-Hussain. But AFAIK, there isn't any.

Salaam Brother.

Brother do you have saheh proof that latom is forbidden on the Ahlu al-Bayt (as)??

And I showed you a weak isnaad narration does not mean it is to be rejected. The narration has been accepted by our ulamaa (r.a) and as sayed al-Khoei (r.a) said.

The hadith does not contradict the sunna, Zaynab (as) practised it in karbala and on Imam Ali (as) death bed and it is inline with quruan

"Then came forward his wife in grief, she smote her face and said (what! I) An old barren woman?"

Quran 51:29

^Even this narration is daif.

w/s

Brother you have to understand this is a historical fact when you read about karbala in the history books this is what it says happened, if you wanna reject the fact that sayeda zaynab (as) did latom on Imam Husain (as) you might as well just reject the whole incident of karbala, because this is part comes with package.

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The book you refer above may be by a prominent writer of Sunni Brothers but there is no any that kind of Riwayat in Shia's books. Further if tearing or crying is prohibited in Islam then why Prophet Yaqoob (a.s) was got blind due to tearing and crying every moment in the love of his beloved son Prophet Yousuf (a.s) why Allah not stopped Hazrat Yaqoob (a.s) from crying in fact that he was Prophet and also knows that his son is safe? but instead Allah condems prophet Yaqoob (a.s) practice Allah wrote this story with pround in Quran.

I fail to see the evidence of you claim from the Quran:

And he turned away from them and said: "Alas, my grief for Yûsuf (Joseph)!" And he lost his sight because of the sorrow that he was suppressing. (Yusuf 12:84)

He said: "I only complain of my grief and sorrow to Allâh, and I know from Allâh that which you know not. (Yusuf 12:86)

This is in contrast to the rituals of ashura practised by the shia who unlike Yaqoub (as) make no attempt to suppress their sorrow.

Also i would like to question the legitimacy of the comparison made between the grief of Yaqoub (as) and that of the shia which in my experience is short lived and restricted to 10 or so days a year...

From personal experience no sooner do the days of Muharram surpass us that the shia are back to their old 'unislamic' ways of pubbing, clubbing and flirting via shi'i websites - all in the name of the Family of the Prophet....

http://www.youtube.com/watch#playnext=1&playnext_from=TL&videos=OvPqUO7FeBc&v=jRYs0oFSyeI

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I fail to see the evidence of you claim from the Quran:

And he turned away from them and said: "Alas, my grief for Yûsuf (Joseph)!" And he lost his sight because of the sorrow that he was suppressing. (Yusuf 12:84)

He said: "I only complain of my grief and sorrow to Allâh, and I know from Allâh that which you know not. (Yusuf 12:86)

This is in contrast to the rituals of ashura practised by the shia who unlike Yaqoub (as) make no attempt to suppress their sorrow.

Also i would like to question the legitimacy of the comparison made between the grief of Yaqoub (as) and that of the shia which in my experience is short lived and restricted to 10 or so days a year...

From personal experience no sooner do the days of Muharram surpass us that the shia are back to their old 'unislamic' ways of pubbing, clubbing and flirting via shi'i websites - all in the name of the Family of the Prophet....

http://www.youtube.com/watch#playnext=1&playnext_from=TL&videos=OvPqUO7FeBc&v=jRYs0oFSyeI

Salaam to you again my respectful brother.

Brother, displaying grief is a practice of our holy prophet (pbuh) and the ahlu al-Bayt (as)

First of displaying grief in public for the sake of someone who has been wronged is inline with the Quruan

Allah loveth not that evil should be noised abroad in public speech, except where injustice hath been done; for Allah is He who heareth and knoweth all things. (4:148)

And brother there is many hadith of the holy prophet (pbuh) and his family (as) displaying their grief on the dead I will give some examples:

The prophet (pbuh) cries on his mum from sahih muslim

þÍÏËäÇ þ þÃÈæ ÈßÑ Èä ÃÈí ÔíÈÉ þ þæÒåíÑ Èä ÍÑÈ þ þÞÇáÇ ÍÏËäÇ þ þãÍãÏ Èä ÚÈíÏ þ þÚä þ þíÒíÏ Èä ßíÓÇä þ þÚä þ þÃÈí ÍÇÒã þ þÚä þ þÃÈí åÑíÑÉ þ þÞÇá þ

þÒÇÑ ÇáäÈí þ þÕáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã þ þÞÈÑ Ããå ÝÈßì æÃÈßì ãä Íæáå ÝÞÇá þ þÇÓÊÃÐäÊ ÑÈí Ýí Ãä ÃÓÊÛÝÑ áåÇ Ýáã íÄÐä áí æÇÓÊÃÐäÊå Ýí Ãä ÃÒæÑ ÞÈÑåÇ ÝÃÐä áí ÝÒæÑæÇ ÇáÞÈæÑ ÝÅäåÇ ÊÐßÑ ÇáãæÊ þ

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?hnum=1622&doc=1

Prophet (pbuh) cries on the great sahabi Uthman ibn math'un Musnad ahmed

þÍÏËäÇ þ þíÍíì þ þÚä þ þÓÝíÇä þ þÚä þ þÚÇÕã Èä ÚÈíÏ Çááå þ þÚä þ þÇáÞÇÓã þ þÚä þ þÚÇÆÔÉ þ

þÞÈá ÑÓæá Çááå þ þÕáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã þ þÚËãÇä Èä ãÙÚæä þ þæåæ ãíÊ ÍÊì ÑÃíÊ ÇáÏãæÚ ÊÓíá Úáì æÌåå

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?hnum=23036&doc=6

Al-turmuthi said this hadith is hassan sahih see here http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?hnum=910&doc=2

The prophet (pbuh) cires on jafar (as) from Bukhari

þÍÏËäÇ þ þÓáíãÇä Èä ÍÑÈ þ þÍÏËäÇ þ þÍãÇÏ Èä ÒíÏ þ þÚä þ þÃíæÈ þ þÚä þ þÍãíÏ Èä åáÇá þ þÚä þ þÃäÓ Èä ãÇáß þ þÑÖí Çááå Úäå þ

þÃä ÇáäÈí þ þÕáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã þ þäÚì þ þÌÚÝÑÇ þ þæÒíÏÇ þ þÞÈá Ãä íÌíÁ ÎÈÑåã æÚíäÇå ÊÐÑÝÇä

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?hnum=3358&doc=0

The prophet (pbuh) cries on his son Ibrahim (as) from Bukahri

þÍÏËäÇ þ þÇáÍÓä Èä ÚÈÏ ÇáÚÒíÒ þ þÍÏËäÇ þ þíÍíì Èä ÍÓÇä þ þÍÏËäÇ þ þÞÑíÔ åæ ÇÈä ÍíÇä þ þÚä þ þËÇÈÊ þ þÚä þ þÃäÓ Èä ãÇáß þ þÑÖí Çááå Úäå þ þÞÇá þ

þÏÎáäÇ ãÚ ÑÓæá Çááå þ þÕáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã þ þÚáì þ þÃÈí ÓíÝ ÇáÞíä þ þæßÇä þ þÙÆÑÇ þ þáÅÈÑÇåíã þ þÚáíå ÇáÓáÇã þ þÝÃÎÐ ÑÓæá Çááå þ þÕáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã þ þÅÈÑÇåíã þ þÝÞÈáå æÔãå Ëã ÏÎáäÇ Úáíå ÈÚÏ Ðáß þ þæÅÈÑÇåíã þ þíÌæÏ ÈäÝÓå ÝÌÚáÊ ÚíäÇ ÑÓæá Çááå þ þÕáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã þ þÊÐÑÝÇä ÝÞÇá áå þ þÚÈÏ ÇáÑÍãä Èä ÚæÝ þ þÑÖí Çááå Úäå þ þæÃäÊ íÇ ÑÓæá Çááå ÝÞÇá íÇ þ þÇÈä ÚæÝ þ þÅäåÇ ÑÍãÉ Ëã ÃÊÈÚåÇ ÈÃÎÑì ÝÞÇá þ þÕáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã þ þÅä ÇáÚíä ÊÏãÚ æÇáÞáÈ íÍÒä æáÇ äÞæá ÅáÇ ãÇ íÑÖì ÑÈäÇ æÅäÇ ÈÝÑÇÞß íÇ þ þÅÈÑÇåíã þ þáãÍÒæäæä

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?hnum=1220&doc=0

The reward of crying for Imam Husain (as) is paradise from fada'el as-Sahaba for Ahmed ibn hanbal

1118 - ÍÏËäÇ ÃÍãÏ Èä ÅÓÑÇÆíá ÞÇá : ÑÃíÊ Ýí ßÊÇÈ ÃÍãÏ Èä ãÍãÏ Èä ÍäÈá ÑÍãå Çááå ÈÎØ íÏå : äÇ ÃÓæÏ Èä ÚÇãÑ ÃÈæ ÚÈÏ ÇáÑÍãä ÞËäÇ ÇáÑÈíÚ Èä ãäÐÑ ¡ Úä ÃÈíå ÞÇá : ßÇä ÍÓíä Èä Úáí íÞæá : ãä ÏãÚÊÇ ÚíäÇå ÝíäÇ ÏãÚÉ ¡ Ãæ ÞØÑÊ ÚíäÇå ÝíäÇ ÞØÑÉ ¡ ÃËæÇå Çááå ÚÒ æÌá ÇáÌäÉ.

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(salam),

The book you refer above may be by a prominent writer of Sunni Brothers but there is no any that kind of Riwayat in Shia's books. Further if tearing or crying is prohibited in Islam then why Prophet Yaqoob (a.s) was got blind due to tearing and crying every moment in the love of his beloved son Prophet Yousuf (a.s) why Allah not stopped Hazrat Yaqoob (a.s) from crying in fact that he was Prophet and also knows that his son is safe? but instead Allah condems prophet Yaqoob (a.s) practice Allah wrote this story with pround in Quran.

It is, ofcourse, an excellent point.

However, I have just one problem with this. Can you show me reference which shows Yaqoub (as) also 'tore his clothes' in mourning of Yusuf's (as) absence?

wa (salam)

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(salam),

Lady Zaynab (as) was the leader of the caravan which Imam Hussain (as) brought from Madinah, after his martyrdom. If the leader himself falls weak, what would be expected from the rest of the caravan? From what I understand, they were strict instructions to Zaynab (as), and applied only to her for a limited time (until her duty as leader of Hussain's (as) caravan was over, i.e. when they reached Madina again).

If this were not the reason, how could you ask a sister, who's nephews, niece, sons and brothers and are all brutally murdered in one afternoon by none other than the Ummah itself, their heads severed, and shown around on lances, not to cry? How could you not expect a woman who has been locked up along with other women and their kids, behind bars along with the Imam of the time, not to mourn? Why would it not be natural for the grand daughter of the mightiest personality of this Earth and the Seal of the Prophet (as), to scream, weep and possibly lose her sanity, on being snatched of her Hijab? I would expect a normal woman, to have committed suicide by then, or to the very least, not have the least bit interest in life and its joys.

If Imam Hussain (as) wanted people after him not to mourn him, he would have said so in the many sermons he delivered in his life. He would have given all such instructions to the many people he left in Madinah, like Muhammad ibn Hanafiyah and Abdullah ibn Jafar (may Allah be pleased with both of them), since it's quite natural for one's followers to mourn the absence of their leader.

Furthermore, there is proof in Sunni books, that the Prophet (pbuh) too mourned for Imam Hussain (as) (tell me if you would like to see them) Why should we not choose to do the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh)?

wa (salam)

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Salaam to you again my respectful brother.

Brother, displaying grief is a practice of our holy prophet (pbuh) and the ahlu al-Bayt (as)

(salam)

Displaying grief through tears is not the same as hitting yourself, tearing your clothes, etc. According to Sunnis, the former is allowed, while the latter is not.

Please keep this in mind when posting about this topic.

^How can you say it doesn't contradict the sunna when we have nothing sahih in our books which proves that its sunnah to beat ourselves for Imam al-Hussain.

What hadiths do we have, regardless of authenticity?

JazakAllah khair.

If Imam Hussain (as) wanted people after him not to mourn him, he would have said so in the many sermons he delivered in his life. He would have given all such instructions to the many people he left in Madinah, like Muhammad ibn Hanafiyah and Abdullah ibn Jafar (may Allah be pleased with both of them), since it's quite natural for one's followers to mourn the absence of their leader.

There are hadiths about how to remember and mourn the ahlul bayt (as). Both in specific instructions, and through recorded instances of the practice of the imams (as). There are hadiths that speak about reciting poetry for them and remembering them in a general sense. However, it gets into a question surrounding usul al-fiqh.

One such example is the fact that singing is haram in our hadiths. However, if someone sings to remember the ahlul bayt (as), does this make it halal although this rememberance is being conducted through a haram means?

The same can be analogized with hitting yourself. Also, it gets into the notion of bid'ah. Remembering the ahlul bayt (as) is rewardable in the shariah, but can we, for instance, conduct a passion play to do this, or must we stick only with the ways the imams (as) have advised and demonstrated for us?

(salam)

Edited by avjar7

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Salaam Brother.

There is an explanation given to this hadith.

Imam Husayn (a.s) did not want zaynab (a.s) to show any sighns of grief specifically the moment Imam Husayn (as) is killed because Imam Husayn (as) did not want Zaynab (a.s) to show any sighns of weakness infront of the enemies and infront of the other Woman and children because they all looked towards her. Hence, Imam (a.s) said "...... when I am killed"

Hence, this hadith was to be applied my Zaynab (as) the moment when Imam (a.s) was killed. Not after. If latom was forbidden Imam Ali (as) would of told zaynab (as) not to do latom when he (as) was on his death bed.

When you read a hadith for a Masoom (a.s) you must take into consideration the time and the context the hadith was said in. Brother, you see we have ahadith from Imam Sadiq (a.s) saying you can beat your chest and face on Imam Husayn (a.s) , therefore it's impossible Imam sadiq (a.s) will contradict Imam Husayn (a.s).

The ruling you've derived from the narration is a seperate issue but.......

The time this narraation was narrated was when Husayn (ra) was about to be killed.... His final instruction was DO NOT show weakness to your enemies by hitting yourself, tearing your clothes etc...

So why do you shia insist of debasing the image of islam by behaving like frantic lunatics wielding weapons against themselves - doesn't this make you look weak and retarded amongst your enemies (the sunni's) as well as the non muslims???

I mean if the prohibition was based on the perceptions of the enemies, doesn't that still apply?? I can't imagine how behaving in such pathetic manner would show your enemies strength!

If you however consider this a show of strength then since the tragic death of Husayn (ra) what has 'this strength' achieved for the shia??? A thousand years later your Imam is still in 'hiding', you have no absolute authority in the world over Mekka, Medina, Jerusalem or any other aspect of worldly life or politics and finally the shia state of Iran is once again in a downward economic, social and political spiral that shows us no signs of strength but rather is fighting for its survival.....

Edited by Vilayatul Faqih

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See tanqih Sharh Al-Urwa Al-Wuthqa for sayed Al-khoei volume 9 page 231. al-Khoei (r.a) gives a shafi explanation on the hadith.

I seek refuge from Allah..

Al-Sallam-alikum

Brother if you have the book maybe you scan the page and share it with us.

Regards,

Sam

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If you however consider this a show of strength then since the tragic death of Husayn (ra) what has 'this strength' achieved for the shia??? A thousand years later your Imam is still in 'hiding', you have no absolute authority in the world over Mekka, Medina, Jerusalem or any other aspect of worldly life or politics and finally the shia state of Iran is once again in a downward economic, social and political spiral that shows us no signs of strength but rather is fighting for its survival.....

To be fair what group of musims are running Mecca, Medina or Jerusalem or any other major Mulim country.

Mecca American puppets not run by muslims

Medina American puppet not run by muslims

Jerusalem israie

Jordan american puppet

Egypt American puppet

need I go on

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To be fair what group of musims are running Mecca, Medina or Jerusalem or any other major Mulim country.

Mecca American puppets not run by muslims

Medina American puppet not run by muslims

Jerusalem israie

Jordan american puppet

Egypt American puppet

need I go on

Sorry but are you saying that the most sacred lands of Islam are not run by the Muslims?

Well when I visited Saudi last time the authorities facilitated my pilgrimage by all their systems & procedures...

So should i be thanking the Yank's or the Saudi's for this?

Can you elaborate on your previous nonsensical statement as I think it doesn't address the question as to why shiaism lacks religious & political authority in the presence of the 'hidden' imam??

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This generation has brought us Tom, Richard and Harry as hadiths experts.

These Tom, Richard and Harry would ague with you, until they or you turn blue in faces. These so called experts will discuss ilum al-riyal, matn, daif, sahih and so forth. These people are like Quran Only Muslims.

When you ask the Quran Only Muslims how they pray five times daily, they will tell you that rasool Allah (pbuh) showed us how to pray and this is passed down the generations.

Then you you ask them the Muslims pray with open hands, closed hands, closed on their chest, closed on their tummies and so forth, so which way the rasool Allah Mohammad (pbuh) showed, they look at you at amazement.

So, they are lost and they don't believe in the Sunnah of rasool Allah Mohammad (pbuh).

And, there are those who speak of ilum al-riyal, matn, daif, sahih and so forth, but they forget that our Imams showed us for generations how to do matan.

These so called Experts Of Hadiths are not any different than the Quran Only Muslims. The latter do not believe in the Sunnah of rasool Allah Mohammad (pbuh) and the former consider themselves expert on the Sunnah of rasool Allah Mohammad (pbuh).

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.............................

This generation has brought us Tom, Richard and Harry as hadiths experts.

These Tom, Richard and Harry would ague with you, until they or you turn blue in faces. These so called experts will discuss ilum al-riyal, matn, daif, sahih and so forth. These people are like Quran Only Muslims.

When you ask the Quran Only Muslims how they pray five times daily, they will tell you that rasool Allah (pbuh) showed us how to pray and this is passed down the generations.

Then you you ask them the Muslims pray with open hands, closed hands, closed on their chest, closed on their tummies and so forth, so which way the rasool Allah Mohammad (pbuh) showed, they look at you at amazement.

So, they are lost and they don't believe in the Sunnah of rasool Allah Mohammad (pbuh).

And, there are those who speak of ilum al-riyal, matn, daif, sahih and so forth, but they forget that our Imams showed us for generations how to do matan.

These so called Experts Of Hadiths are not any different than the Quran Only Muslims. The latter do not believe in the Sunnah of rasool Allah Mohammad (pbuh) and the former consider themselves expert on the Sunnah of rasool Allah Mohammad (pbuh).

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SEEING IS BELIEVING

For generations Muslims have been praying five times daily. How did they learned how to pray?

They learned it from their parents, from their families, from their ulemas and so forth.

There is no verse in the Quran which says to pray five times daily. No verse in the Quran which describes how to pray. Neither there is any hadith which says how to pray.

So, how do we know how to pray and what to pray?

We learned from our parents, our families, our ulemas, who learned from their prior generation, who learned from their prior generation ........ who learned from rasool Allah Mohammad (as).

This is how we learned our matam too!

But the Wahhabi like Vilayatul Faqih and Lord Botta will run us in circles making us believe that they are the experts in the science of hadiths. And, our Jaffari friends like Jondab_Azdi .... like ......

Edited by aladdin

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SEEING IS BELIEVING

For generations Muslims have been praying five times daily. How did they learned how to pray?

They learned it from their parents, from their families, from their ulemas and so forth.

There is no verse in the Quran which says to pray five times daily. No verse in the Quran which describes how to pray. Neither there is any hadith which says how to pray.

So, how do we know how to pray and what to pray?

We learned from our parents, our families, our ulemas, who learned from their prior generation, who learned from their prior generation ........ who learned from rasool Allah Mohammad (as).

This is how we learned our matam too!

But the Wahhabi like Vilayatul Faqih and Lord Botta will run us in circles making us believe that they are the experts in the science of hadiths. And, our Jaffari friends like Jondab_Azdi .... like ......

When it is said to them: "Follow what Allâh has sent down." They say: "Nay! We shall follow what we found our fathers following." (Would they do that!) even though their fathers did not understand anything nor were they guided? [2:170]

It is clear that your forefathers did not comprehend Islam if they taught you to combine your daily prayers every single day without reason and to flog yourself to mourn people!

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When it is said to them: "Follow what Allâh has sent down." They say: "Nay! We shall follow what we found our fathers following." (Would they do that!) even though their fathers did not understand anything nor were they guided? [2:170]

It is clear that your forefathers did not comprehend Islam if they taught you to combine your daily prayers every single day without reason and to flog yourself to mourn people!

Thank you! :)

:yaali:

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*sigh*

we do what we do, because we want to do it. we do not ask for you to join us, or for your opinions or for your permission. its our bodies we are hitting, not yours.

so what business then is it of yours what we do? we will go to our own graves, you will go to yours. if its a sin, then may Allah forgive us. if its a source of blessings, then may Allah forgive you for trying to stop us.

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*sigh*

if its a sin, then may Allah forgive us. if its a source of blessings, then may Allah forgive you for trying to stop us.

Only those are the believers who have believed in Allâh and His Messenger, and afterward doubt not but strive with their wealth and their lives for the Cause of Allâh. Those! They are the truthful.

(Al-Hujurat 49:15)

The Prophet Muhammed (May the Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) warned his followers:

“I have left you upon clear proofs, its night is like its day, and no one deviates from it except one who is destroyed.... Reported by Imaam Ahmed (4/126)

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Only those are the believers who have believed in Allâh and His Messenger, and afterward doubt not but strive with their wealth and their lives for the Cause of Allâh. Those! They are the truthful.

(Al-Hujurat 49:15)

The Prophet Muhammed (May the Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) warned his followers:

“I have left you upon clear proofs, its night is like its day, and no one deviates from it except one who is destroyed.... Reported by Imaam Ahmed (4/126)

It is not clear what are you trying to say here.

It appears that not only you don't know Arabic language, but also you don't know how to write the English language.

Kind a feel sorry for you!

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It is not clear what are you trying to say here.

It appears that not only you don't know Arabic language, but also you don't know how to write the English language.

Kind a feel sorry for you!

aladdin - your name suits your fairytale arguments :lol:

If you see the mallang's statement

if its a sin, then may Allah forgive us. if its a source of blessings, then may Allah forgive you for trying to stop us.

Its a statement of doubt - [maybe he is seeing the truth and will abandon such falsified actions that have no basis in Islam].

This is why i used the ayah to highlight that doubt is not a quality of the believers: "Only those are the believers who have believed in Allâh and His Messenger, and afterward doubt not" (Al-Hujurat 49:15)

Bring out the genie aladdin - what you waiting for?

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aladdin - your name suits your fairytale arguments :lol:

If you see the mallang's statement

Its a statement of doubt - [maybe he is seeing the truth and will abandon such falsified actions that have no basis in Islam].

This is why i used the ayah to highlight that doubt is not a quality of the believers: "Only those are the believers who have believed in Allâh and His Messenger, and afterward doubt not" (Al-Hujurat 49:15)

Bring out the genie aladdin - what you waiting for?

Son it is not statement of doubt. As a Muslim he has rahma and therefore he is giving you the benefit of doubt.

Of course, as a Wahhabi you would not understand the difference in the above two statements. As you have no rahma in your qalb, and you qalb is hard as a stone by murdering the Muslims, let alone the non-Muslims.

You are following nothing, but the khanis Abdul Wahhab ibn Khabees, who killed many, many Muslims and his grandson Usama bin Laden.

Bring it on son!

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Son it is not statement of doubt. As a Muslim he has rahma and therefore he is giving you the benefit of doubt.

Of course, as a Wahhabi you would not understand the difference in the above two statements. As you have no rahma in your qalb, and you qalb is hard as a stone by murdering the Muslims, let alone the non-Muslims.

You are following nothing, but the khanis Abdul Wahhab ibn Khabees, who killed many, many Muslims and his grandson Usama bin Laden.

Bring it on son!

Uff i shouldn't have said that - the Genie is :mad: - go back Genie

Somebody rub the lamp :huh:

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