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In the Name of God بسم الله

Coming Elections - Your Vote?

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Iraqiah_Shia

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A religious state does not necessarily have to IMPOSE the state religion upon anybody.

My point was if we have a Shia ideology in power this will not please our Sunni brothers, and vice versa. For God sakes, some Sunnis are already boycotting the elections because of this Shia vs Sunni religious ideology thing. It's best we keep religion out of the state or else Iraq will never be united.

And it's funny you brought up football, because I.R. Iran's national football team has one Sunni player (Hossein Ka'bi) and one Christian player (Andranik Teymourian).

There you go. A football team has no religion, it has football players. Samething with a state bro. We are a team of players looking to build a strong and united country.

Edited by Brother5819
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Brother I am not advocating one system or another. That's your people's business to sort out, obviously.

But I fail to see how secularism's success is a foregone conclusion. For 40 years you had secularism and where did it take you? And how can you be sure that a secular system ensures that no sect becomes too powerful? The Bath regime was secular and it was built on the basis of Sunni dominance.

Unless of course you want to set up a confessional system like in Lebanon (which may not be a bad idea, honestly).

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Brother I am not advocating one system or another. That's your people's business to sort out, obviously.

But I fail to see how secularism's success is a foregone conclusion. For 40 years you had secularism and where did it take you? And how can you be sure that a secular system ensures that no sect becomes too powerful? The Bath regime was secular and it was built on the basis of Sunni dominance.

Unless of course you want to set up a confessional system like in Lebanon (which may not be a bad idea, honestly).

I don't think it's accurate to say that for the past 4 decades we've had secularism in Iraq. It's been mostly dictatorship and occupation ruling the country, notably Saddam Hussein. I am not an advocate of Arab nationalism, don't get me wrong, but lets look at Iraq pre Saddam:

Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr: a ba3thi yes, however he was a true secularist and at least advocated peace and we had a stable economy during his leadership. FYI, it was Saddam Hussain who threatened to evict him from power if he didn't step down.

Abd al-Karim Qasim: Also Sunni, but the man showed nothing but respect towards the Shia majority. We lived in peace under his leadership before the Pan Arabs again led by Saddam tried to assasinate him.

This time, we have a Shia cleric in Jamal al Deen advocating secularism, aganist pan Arab nationalism and I think he can make it work right. How do we know it's not gonna be dominated by Sunnis or Shias? Well, that's the whole point of his secular views. He doesn't want any of the Shia or Sunni [Edited Out]. Iraq will be Iraq, like it was pre Saddam but with the leadership of Shias and Sunnis working together to build this country.

Edited by Brother5819
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I don't think it's accurate to say that for the past 4 decades we've had secularism in Iraq. It's been mostly dictatorship and occupation ruling the country, notably Saddam Hussein. I am not an advocate of Arab nationalism, don't get me wrong, but lets look at Iraq pre Saddam:

Ahmed Hassan al-Bakr: a ba3thi yes, however he was a true secularist and at least advocated peace and we had a stable economy during his leadership. FYI, it was Saddam Hussain who threatened to evict him from power if he didn't step down.

Abd al-Karim Qasim: Also Sunni, but the man showed nothing but respect towards the Shia majority. We lived in peace under his leadership before the Pan Arabs again led by Saddam tried to assasinate him.

This time, we have a Shia cleric in Jamal al Deen advocating secularism, aganist pan Arab nationalism and I think he can make it work right. How do we know it's not gonna be dominated by Sunnis or Shias? Well, that's the whole point of his secular views. He doesn't want any of the Shia or Sunni [Edited Out]. Iraq will be Iraq, like it was pre Saddam but with the leadership of Shias and Sunnis working together to build this country.

But after so many years of the Shia being oppressed, is reconciliation possible?

I think retribution is almost inevitable at this point.

And the terms "dictatorship" and "secular" are not mutually exclusive (in fact the worst dictatorships have been irreligious).

Edited by baradar_jackson
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But I fail to see how secularism's success is a foregone conclusion. For 40 years you had secularism and where did it take you? And how can you be sure that a secular system ensures that no sect becomes too powerful? The Bath regime was secular and it was built on the basis of Sunni dominance.

(salam)

I don't think Iraq had secularism for the past 40 years. It was a complete dictatorship.

I don’t think there is any political system that is full proof from corruption. You need to have a whole network of check and balances at all stage in order to avoid dictatorship or dominance by a certain tribe/sect.

Personally, I do feel Iraq is heading towards the right direction. Whatever system they adopt, it should be something that is accepted and respected by every Iraqi.

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(salam)

I don't think Iraq had secularism for the past 40 years. It was a complete dictatorship.

Again, those terms are not mutually exclusive. Secularism means the basis for governance being something other than religion. Dictatorship means widespread, formal repression of dissent and opposition.

These two ideas can coexist perfectly. It seems crystal clear to me.

Edited by baradar_jackson
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But after so many years of the Shia being oppressed, is reconciliation possible?

I think retribution is almost inevitable at this point.

And the terms "dictatorship" and "secular" are not mutually exclusive (in fact the worst dictatorships have been irreligious).

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Shias have been oppressed since God knows when, and all we have is mercy for our enemies. Bro, a true Shia knows that the real retribution will come on the day of judgement.

Most dictators have been pro nationalist. Secularism does not imply pro nationalism. In the example of Saddam Hussain, well his pure dictatorship regime overshadowed his secular views of a united Iraq. Saddam is the best example of a pan Arab dictator.

I don't know if we can call the Kings of Jordan and Saudi "religious", but they are certaintly dictator.

(salam)

I don't think Iraq had secularism for the past 40 years. It was a complete dictatorship.

I don’t think there is any political system that is full proof from corruption. You need to have a whole network of check and balances at all stage in order to avoid dictatorship or dominance by a certain tribe/sect.

Personally, I do feel Iraq is heading towards the right direction. Whatever system they adopt, it should be something that is accepted and respected by every Iraqi.

I agree.

Listen to this speech. He makes interesting points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52okgORzECc&feature=video_response

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(salam)

Of course they can co-exist.

Secularism means the basis for governance being something other than religion.

But I don't think the current Iraqi government are 100% secularist. Furthermore, if the religious authority in Najaf don't find it (political system) offensive, then why would we have problem with any political system that they choose to govern themselves. :unsure: Am I misunderstanding you?

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(salam)

Of course they can co-exist.

But I don't think the current Iraqi government are 100% secularist. Furthermore, if the religious authority in Najaf don't find it (political system) offensive, then why would we have problem with any political system that they choose to govern themselves. :unsure: Am I misunderstanding you?

Jackson, any political philosophies can co exist, even if they contradict themselves. The point I was making is complete dictatorship dominated Iraq, while Saddam did not represent a true secularist view. All Saddam sought after was power and destruction.

Zareen, who said the current Iraqi governent is 100%, let alone 10% secularist? That's a bold lie or misunderstanding.

Edited by Brother5819
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(salam)

I was actually disagreeing with the statement.

Iraq will probably have a new form of government. People with some interest in politics are going to compare it with other government/political system in predominantly Muslim countries (i.e., Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Iran).

Unfortunately, I don’t have that much knowledge or interest for theoretical discussion into what political systems are bests. This is something that the Iraqi need to decide.

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Hossein Kaebi a Sunni Muslim??? I don't think so, he's just an Arab. We do have Sunni Arabs from Iran, but they are dead rare. Ahwaz is a Shiite Arab province in Iran, I'm not sure if it has Sunnis, I'd have to check.

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The problem in iraq right now are those parties who seem to be more loyal to the foreign states...

Hakims group is loyal to Iran.

Iyad allawi is loyal to the saudi monarch.

The kurds more or less are loyal to anyone who would support them getting some sort of independance (including isreal AND iran)

The other sunni majority groups are also loyal to the likes of Jordan, Syria, Saudi, Kuwait...etc.

I think the only parties who who loyal to Iraq and ONLY Iraq is malikis group, Mithal alusi, iyad jamal din and the lesser well known.

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Good point brother Iraqilives, I think Iyad Jamal Deen is the most loyal one to Iraq. Some of you say he is loyal to America, but that's because Iraq has to be loyal to America since the Americans are the occupation.. Malaki is also loyal to America of course, and to some degree Iran.

Edited by Brother5819
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There are still some baath in Iraq bro.

Not only baath, but iyad allawis group consists of pan arabists, nasserites, communists and nationilists. These groups have a lot of support in Iraq.

It will take a generation to clean Iraq from what saddam created. This election is SO important its a matter of life and death for the future of Iraq. And the whole world knows it.

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There is nothing wrong in advocating the overthrow of the corrupted Islamic republic of Iran. The man is a secularist. He wants no religion in a state because it makes sense. Does a state perform salat? Does a state do hajj? Nope, the people do it. He has no intention of messing with Iran, except if Iran intereferes in Iraq. He's not being literal here.

He clearly said that he will use the MKO, who have a good record of killing innocent civilians, against the Islamic Republic. I wouldn't even spit on his face.

You are known by your allies, as I said before, and I'll repeat again, May Allah (swt) give him and followers a place next to their MKO allies in the hereafter, as they do seem insistent on supporting them.

Your ignorance is clearly shown through you not having the ability to differentiate between validly calling for a seperation of religion and state, and the backing of terrorists that have a history of killing innocent shias.

Regards to him not being literal. Can you hence please explain me the metaphoric meaning of ''I will use the MKO against Iran if I get elected''?

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According to opinion polls in Iraq, MAliki and Iyad Allawi are the top contenders...

http://www.france24.com/en/20100224-foes-maliki-allawi-top-contenders-iraq-poll

This is interesting.

I'm very doubtful Allawi's list will muster enough votes to position it in 2nd place. While his new 'cross-sectarian' secular coalition will gain some of the Sunni vote I don't think they will out-vote the Iraqi National Alliance, who now also include the Sadrists. The lNA have conducted their own polls to suggest they could garner between 22- 25% rather than 17%: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/8961274

Edited by MajiC
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I'm very doubtful Allawi's list will muster enough votes to position it in 2nd place. While his new 'cross-sectarian' secular coalition will gain some of the Sunni vote I don't think they will out-vote the Iraqi National Alliance, who now also include the Sadrists. The lNA have conducted their own polls to suggest they could garner between 22- 25% rather than 17%: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/8961274

Ive had enough of the INA. They use religion to garner public support for them to gain power and to fill there pockets $$$

I hope your right about iyad allawi. Hes an agent and still a baathi..he can deny it all he likes.

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He clearly said that he will use the MKO, who have a good record of killing innocent civilians, against the Islamic Republic. I wouldn't even spit on his face.

You are known by your allies, as I said before, and I'll repeat again, May Allah (swt) give him and followers a place next to their MKO allies in the hereafter, as they do seem insistent on supporting them.

Your ignorance is clearly shown through you not having the ability to differentiate between validly calling for a seperation of religion and state, and the backing of terrorists that have a history of killing innocent shias.

Regards to him not being literal. Can you hence please explain me the metaphoric meaning of ''I will use the MKO against Iran if I get elected''?

You are pretty selective with your quotes. Why don't you post the entire transcript of his interview here.

He will go that far if Iran interferes in Iraqi politics. We all know Iran uses the names of Allah, Muhammed and Ali for it's own self interests. They have no integrity at all. Iyad Jamal Al deen will not let Iran step even a foot in Iraq. May Allah bless him.

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What Iran wants for Iraq, is what it did for Lebanon. The IRGC went there and fought and trained young Lebanese men to take their place. These young Lebanese men achieved something the combined armies of the Arabs could not achieve. Not only could all these Arab armies not gain any ground on the Zionists, but they suffered a humiliating defeat and lost a lot of land to them. Hezbollah is an independent group which strives for an independent, free and prosperous Lebanon. Look at them, they are the pride of the Muslim world and beyond.

Today they have grown to such an importance that we are mutual beneficiaries. We need them, they need us, together we're stronger.

Iran wants an independent middle-east and beyond with which it can create ties, create a powerful block both in the field of economy as well as security. We do not have the urge to control anyone's country, you're falling for the enemies trap. If the Iraqis, as a majority, fail to see this, they might open up the path to another 1000 years of poverty and failure. Learn from your mistakes, do not repeat past mistakes. If the shi'a do not manage to control Iraq, you and your children will again end up in tears and doom. Do you not see this?!

Fear Allah (swt), choose with faith in mind, not with petty worldly thoughts...

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^^^ OMG, you two know who your gonan vote for???

I dont know who to vote for :( Iyad jamal el din is indirectly (Without him knowing) being supported by the saudis.

Maliki is good but isnt there anyone more anti arab/iran but not being supported by the saudis?!?!?!

Bro IraqiLives don't make statements without substance. Where are your sources? What kind of support? I thought Saudis hated Shias.

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Ive had enough of the INA. They use religion to garner public support for them to gain power and to fill there pockets $$$

I hope your right about iyad allawi. Hes an agent and still a baathi..he can deny it all he likes.

How does the INA use religion to gain public support, can you be more specific?

It is sad but true that corruption of some kind generally exists to various degrees and no government can be totally immune from it. I will not deny the possibility that some affiliated with this coalition may be guilty of financial and other corruption. However, this would usually be at the managerial level and below rather than amongst the higher circle of decision makers - most of whom are very decent people and have not been implicated as such. On other hand, it is an established fact that during Iyad Allawi's transitional government billions went missing and senior politicians like Hazim al-Sha'lan (ex-Defense Minister), Mish'an al-Jubouri (ex-Governer of Mosul) and Mohammed al-Dayini (ex-Electricity Minister) - who all fled the country - were all implicated in finanicial theft. The latter is also known for his failed attempt to blow up the parliament building.

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(salam)

Early voting is in underway. They already have suicide bombing. :dry:

They are nearly 6200 candidates for 335 positions. Iraq has almost 19 million registered voters,

InshaAllah this election will go smoothly.

Do we need an Iraq election update thread? :unsure: Are you guys using this thread or someone will start a new thread to track detail update?

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(salam)

Early voting is in underway. They already have suicide bombing. :dry:

They are nearly 6200 candidates for 335 positions. Iraq has almost 19 million registered voters,

InshaAllah this election will go smoothly.

Do we need an Iraq election update thread? :unsure: Are you guys using this thread or someone will start a new thread to track detail update?

Starting a new thread would be great. A new election thread where we can post pictures and news.

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I'll be voting for someone on the 337 slate. Not sure who yet, there are a number of good choices.

Wait for the right elections. They are scheduled to be held on May 6, 2010. :angel:

Anyway, Iraqis should vote for this man.

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Anyway, Iraqis should vote for [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P3zcjriPnM this man

Agree, Iyad Jamal al Din is the choice for IRAQ. However, 337 makes more sense now considering Iran is trying to f*** with the elctions and supporting Iyad Allawi that prostititute of a man.

3 + 3 + 7 = 12 Imams (as) and Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)

:P

BTW, don't vote for these criminals:

ARGUMENT PRINT | TEXT SIZE | EMAIL | SINGLE PAGE

Iraq's Elected Criminals

Some of the very people involved in kidnapping my father from his home three years ago might be elected to office on Sunday. Iraq can do better.

BY ALI AL-SAFFAR | MARCH 4, 2010

Three years ago, after a day of work at the Ministry of Health, my father, Ammar al-Saffar, was kidnapped from his childhood home in Iraq. Armed militiamen took him in front of my 89-year-old grandmother -- who, to this day, lives in hope of his return.

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At the time of his kidnapping, my father was the deputy minister of health and a highly regarded advisor to members of the political elite, including current Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and former Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari. But unlike many of Baghdad's political class, he refused to hole up in the Green Zone, arguing that doing so would disconnect him from the plight of ordinary Iraqis. Instead, he chose to live in his mother's house in Adhamiya, one of the most hostile districts of Baghdad -- without a security detail, blast barriers, or any of the other protections favored by Iraqi politicians. He lived that way until the day he was kidnapped.

My father was targeted during an investigation he was conducting into corruption in the Ministry of Health, which had become a fiefdom for the followers of Moqtada al-Sadr. He was on the verge of exposing explosive evidence that funds earmarked to improve Iraq's health sector were being diverted to sectarian militias, helping them carry on the fight against their opponents. Those directly implicated include his fellow deputy minister, Hakim al-Zamili, who took such exception to the threatened public disclosure of his association with violent militias that, I believe, he responded by having my father kidnapped.

Zamili was arrested in 2007, and an Iraqi court leveled the same charges against him that my father had made: that he had been responsible for the murder of hundreds of Sunnis who had arrived at the hospitals run by the Ministry of Health. After a two-day trial that featured widespread accusations of witness intimidation and many irregularities, Zamili was freed. In a morbid reversal of justice, Zamili has quoted Gandhi in describing his arrest and claims that it was actually a boon for his political career. He is now a leading candidate for parliament in Iraq's March 7 election, and his candidacy has been spotlighted on the front page of the New York Times.

Although I always believed Zamili was involved in the killing of my father, it was confirmed for me on March 12, 2007, in a conversation with one of my father's oldest and dearest friends, former prime minister Jaafari. At his home in London, Jaafari told me, in unambiguous terms, that he had evidence of Zamili's involvement in my father's kidnapping, saying that he had received phone calls from prominent Sadrists confirming that Zamili was in fact behind the kidnapping.

It therefore came as quite a shock to learn that Jaafari has recently mended fences with Zamili, in an apparent effort to resurrect his political career. Jaafari's Islaah Party will run in Iraq's parliamentary election on Sunday as part of the Iraqi National Alliance (INA) -- a coalition which also includes the Sadrists among its members. Zamili is 15th on the INA's Baghdad electoral list, just a few names below that of his former accuser, Jaafari.

When I attempted to get in touch with Islaah Party representatives in London four months ago to hear an explanation for this shift, I received no answer and was stonewalled by members of his office. Today, the official line coming from Jaafari's office is that because the court has cleared Zamili, he considers the matter of his alleged involvement in my father's kidnapping closed.

Edited by Brother5819
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It appears as if uncovered head of an Iraqi woman MP is equivalent to Hilary Clinton being naked in US. uhh!

--------

BAGHDAD: Feyruz Hatam's face is itself an indication of the change in Iraqi society's view of women that has become apparent in the run-up to the country's election on Sunday: it is not covered.

“The mentality of Iraqi voters has changed. I'm happy because my photo conveys the message that times have changed,” says Hatam, whose brown trouser suit makes her stand out from fellow Iraqi National Alliance candidates.

Her female colleagues at a meeting of the conservative Shiite grouping at Baghdad's Palestine Hotel are mostly wearing abayas, head-to-toe flowing black dresses, and the men are turbanned, indicating they are clerics.

Hatam and women like her around the country, whose faces are uncovered in all forms of media from election posters to televised debates, have been one of the surprises of the campaign ahead of Iraq's second parliamentary election since Saddam Hussein was ousted by the 2003 US-led invasion.

“I think I am an asset to my colleagues, because I think young men and women will vote for us because of my presence,” says the 44-year-old, who runs an Iraqi television channel and leads the small Fayli Kurd Party.

Faylis are Shia Kurds who live in the country's east. Thousands of them were expelled from their homes by Saddam Hussein in 1979.

“By showing my uncovered head, I show voters that our list is not only made up of Islamists.”

In the chaos that followed the 2003 invasion, religious militias severely clamped down on women's rights and forced them to cover their heads or face the threat of violence.

Hatam herself returned to Iraq in 2004, after having left for Iran aged 13, and is now among 1,801 female candidates standing for parliament.

Iraq's constitution stipulates that a quarter of a party's candidates, and eventual MPs, must be women. As a result, no fewer than 82 women will be elected to parliament in the March 7 poll.

Most female candidates still wear veils or headscarves, but a brave minority like Hatam and Safiya al-Souhail, a candidate with Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's State of Law Alliance, are making their point with uncovered heads.

“In 2005, the names and certainly the photos of the candidates did not appear on election posters because the security situation was dire,” says Souhail.

“We could have been targets for Al-Qaeda, who had vowed to stop the elections.”

For Souhail, who was elected to parliament in 2005 as part of ex-prime minister Iyad Allawi's bloc, “just because a woman is not veiled, it does not mean she is disrespecting religious tradition.”

“Our constitution is clear - it stipulates that our country respects Islam but is not an Islamic state.”

Souhail says she wants to “erase the years when the militias and outlaws forced women to cover their heads and forbade men from wearing jeans.”

Female candidates' uncovered faces have also had unintended consequences: in the northern oil-rich city of Kirkuk, a Turkman candidate's photograph has led to several traffic accidents at a major intersection.

“Drivers turn their heads to look at Jala Naftaji and this has caused collisions at intersections, bridges and checkpoints,” according to a police officer who declined to be identified.

[:lol: desperate Iraqis]

Naftaji, 54, is running on Allawi's Iraqiya list.

“I have heard (about the traffic accidents) - I think it is down to this new democratic experience known as Iraq,” she says.

Sabah Abdul Rasul al-Tamimi, a 36-year-old economics professor, has gone one step further - not only does she appear unveiled in photographs, she publishes her phone number on cards she hands to voters.

“I think it is better to give my phone number on a card than printing millions of dollars worth of posters,” says the mother-of-three, a candidate on Interior Minister Jawad al-Bolani's Iraqi Unity Alliance.

“That way, voters can call me and ask me about my programme.”

Weblink

Edited by Marbles
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