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In the Name of God بسم الله

Do The Imams Know Past, Present & Future

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AbuIthnayn

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Alot has been said of the Imams on this forum, it has been narrated in some Shia Hadith books that the Imams know the past, present & future. Do all Shia's agree with this concept?

Only Allah knows ilum al-ghaib, and He gives some of this knowledge to any servant as He pleases!

And, the above is not from me!

It is in the Holy Quran and I am sure that you being a Muslim do read and know the Holy Quran!

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Only Allah knows ilum al-ghaib, and He gives some of this knowledge to any servant as He pleases!

And, the above is not from me!

It is in the Holy Quran and I am sure that you being a Muslim do read and know the Holy Quran!

But I have read in Al Kafi that The Imams know when they will die, and they only die by their choice. (Al-Kafi p.258) and The Imams have knowledge of the past and future; and nothing is hidden from them. (Al-Kafi p.260)

Are these hadith fabricated or weak? Or do you just totally disregard them?

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But I have read in Al Kafi that The Imams know when they will die, and they only die by their choice. (Al-Kafi p.258) and The Imams have knowledge of the past and future; and nothing is hidden from them. (Al-Kafi p.260)

Are these hadith fabricated or weak? Or do you just totally disregard them?

You didn't read my answer properly. You are Muslim and I am pretty sure that you have read and understood the Holy Quran.

Only Allah knows ilum al-ghaib and no one else. And He gives part of this knowledge to any f His servant as He pleases!

Is this hard for you to understand?

Do you believe in the Holy Quran?

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No not all Shias agree on this matter. However it is not a major and pivotally important aspect of belief (such as Prophethood, Imamate, Qiyamat, etc) so there is no problem with disagreements. People are free to make their own decisions based on their logic or on narrations.

^ BTW by definition it's not 'ghayb' if someone knows about it. Sometimes even we as humans learn about the future by dreams which later come true. God revealed predictions about the future in the Qur'an too. So there is nothing wrong, in and of itself, with knowing the future.

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No not all Shias agree on this matter. However it is not a major and pivotally important aspect of belief (such as Prophethood, Imamate, Qiyamat, etc) so there is no problem with disagreements. People are free to make their own decisions based on their logic or on narrations.

^ BTW by definition it's not 'ghayb' if someone knows about it. Sometimes even we as humans learn about the future by dreams which later come true. God revealed predictions about the future in the Qur'an too. So there is nothing wrong, in and of itself, with knowing the future.

Salam sister,

The dream about the future which Allah reveals to His servant is part of the ilum al-ghaib which He has chosen to give His servant. Though it is part of the ilum al-ghaib and not the total.

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[shakir 72:26] The Knower of the unseen! so He does not reveal His secrets to any,

[shakir 72:27] Except to him whom He chooses as a messenger; for surely He makes a guard to march before him and after him,

áöíóÚúáóãó Ãóä ÞóÏú ÃóÈúáóÛõæÇ ÑöÓóÇáóÇÊö ÑóÈøöåöãú æóÃóÍóÇØó ÈöãóÇ áóÏóíúåöãú æóÃóÍúÕóì ßõáøó ÔóíúÁò ÚóÏóÏðÇ {28}

[shakir 72:28] So that He may know that they have truly delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses what is with them and He records the number of all things.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 72:26]

Allah alone knows the unseen. It was not made known to any save the Holy Prophet.

Imam Ali bin Musa ar Rida (as) said:

"Allah revealed all the secrets of the unknown to the Holy Prophet who entrusted this knowledge of the unseen to the Imams of his Ahl ul Bayt."

Refer to The Knowledge of the Unseen & the Knowledge of the Book

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Salam sister,

The dream about the future which Allah reveals to His servant is part of the ilum al-ghaib which He has chosen to give His servant. Though it is part of the ilum al-ghaib and not the total.

Then it's not ghayb anymore if someone knows about it. (This is what I am trying to say)

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[shakir 72:26] The Knower of the unseen! so He does not reveal His secrets to any,

[shakir 72:27] Except to him whom He chooses as a messenger; for surely He makes a guard to march before him and after him,

لِيَعْلَمَ أَن قَدْ أَبْلَغُوا رِسَالَاتِ رَبِّهِمْ وَأَحَاطَ بِمَا لَدَيْهِمْ وَأَحْصَى كُلَّ شَيْءٍ عَدَدًا {28}

[shakir 72:28] So that He may know that they have truly delivered the messages of their Lord, and He encompasses what is with them and He records the number of all things.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 72:26]

Allah alone knows the unseen. It was not made known to any save the Holy Prophet.

Imam Ali bin Musa ar Rida (as) said:

"Allah revealed all the secrets of the unknown to the Holy Prophet who entrusted this knowledge of the unseen to the Imams of his Ahl ul Bayt."

Refer to The Knowledge of the Unseen & the Knowledge of the Book

Salam,

I fully agree with you.

But in the tribes of Sunnis, there are some weird ones though. Some of them believe as such:

1. Nabi is higher than rasool.

2. Any Tom, Richard and Harry can be rasool.

3. Adam was not the first nabi.

4. Rasool Allah Mohammad (saw) was the last nabi but not the last rasool.

5. There are many, many more rasool to come. Therefore, if Allah reveals to someone in his/her dream part of the future, then that person is a rasool.

6. The Qadianis and Ahmadis believe that rasool Allah Mohammad (saws) is the seal of ambiya, meaning the stamp of ambiya, but not the end of ambiya.

It takes all kind in the tribe of Sunnis to tango!

Then it's not ghayb anymore if someone knows about it. (This is what I am trying to say)

Salam sister,

I fully agree. After, I posted my reply to you it downed on me what are you trying to say.

Little slow, but not that much! :)

Edited by aladdin
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You didn't read my answer properly. You are Muslim and I am pretty sure that you have read and understood the Holy Quran.

Only Allah knows ilum al-ghaib and no one else. And He gives part of this knowledge to any f His servant as He pleases!

Is this hard for you to understand?

Do you believe in the Holy Quran?

You clearly didnt understand my position & that is why you answered my question with an emotional response. Even the Prophet (SAW) didnt know the exact time & date he would be taken away by the Angel of death, so how on earth does an Imam know this?

Look forward to your comments.

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You clearly didnt understand my position & that is why you answered my question with an emotional response. Even the Prophet (SAW) didnt know the exact time & date he would be taken away by the Angel of death, so how on earth does an Imam know this?

Look forward to your comments.

I remember he mentioned in his SAW last sermon, that he was told (by angel?) he would die soon. The sermon was the one at ghadir, mutawatir.

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You clearly didnt understand my position & that is why you answered my question with an emotional response. Even the Prophet (SAW) didnt know the exact time & date he would be taken away by the Angel of death, so how on earth does an Imam know this?

Look forward to your comments.

You maybe are a good writer, but for sure you are not a good reader! ;)

You have been answered in post #7 by Naheed.

Take some time and read it again!

Be a good reader! :)

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I remember he mentioned in his SAW last sermon, that he was told (by angel?) he would die soon. The sermon was the one at ghadir, mutawatir.

Salam,

How can he give the sermon saying al-wada, unless he (saws) knew that he is dying soon. His (saws) last sermon is extensively recorded in the sahih sitah (the sahihain and the four suna) about leaving the two mighty things.

The problem lies with the Sunnis, that it never sinks in them.

Edited by aladdin
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I was having secret meeting with my friend and after the meeting i came out. Two persons were siting outside one was asking the other that "What Aabiss has told to his friend and what he did not?". The other replied only Allah knows how much he told and how much he did not.

Looking outside How you can say that how much Ilm ul Ghaib is given by Allah to Prophets or Prophet (pbuh) or Aima Masoomeen (as)?. This is Allah knows only and Prophet (pbuh) know only or the Aima Masoomeen (as) known only.

You are not even to judge what i told to my friend and what i did not. How you can judge about the Ilm ul Ghaib given by Allah to Masoomeen (as). Basically you are no where to judge it.

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(salam) (bismillah)

i believe they do know pretty much all of past, present, and future , with some exceptions, such as the coming of imam mahdi (as) which is unknown to any creature, including imam mahdi (as) himself, and the day of judgement, which no one knows but Allah, perhaps theres some other things they dont know too, but those are 2 things i know that no creature knows.

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Although somewhat counter intuitive, the best way to address this kind of question is to not address it at all. We are in no place to judge what the 14 Infallibles (A.S.) know or don't know. It isn't our concern and it isn't necessary. Just understand that they know more than you could ever imagine or fathom, and leave it at that. I find it kind of disrespectful that people (especially Shias) are willing to sit here and try to find areas of knowledge that they believe are unknown to Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.). Even if by some odd chance you are right, it isn't necessary nor is it your place to point it out. Most people seem to give more respect to the ulema than they do to Ahlul-Bayt (A.S.), which is clearly a lack of marifat and urgently needs to be addressed. Keep our lowly status in mind when speaking about them and do not deviate from it. Whatever knowledge they have, you couldn't grasp an atom's worth of it...is that not enough for you to understand their majesty?

Allah (SWT) knows best.

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You clearly didnt understand my position & that is why you answered my question with an emotional response. Even the Prophet (SAW) didnt know the exact time & date he would be taken away by the Angel of death, so how on earth does an Imam know this?

Look forward to your comments.

you already got answered:

Allah alone knows the unseen. It was not made known to any save the Holy Prophet.

Imam Ali bin Musa ar Rida (as) said:

"Allah revealed all the secrets of the unknown to the Holy Prophet who entrusted this knowledge of the unseen to the Imams of his Ahl ul Bayt."

Refer to The Knowledge of the Unseen & the Knowledge of the Book

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But I have read in Al Kafi that The Imams know when they will die, and they only die by their choice. (Al-Kafi p.258) and The Imams have knowledge of the past and future; and nothing is hidden from them. (Al-Kafi p.260)

Are these hadith fabricated or weak? Or do you just totally disregard them?

Instead of being dishonest, as this is not the first time you post nothing and claim something. Please post them so that we can have a look at them and their context, have you actually read al kafi? be honest, i have my doubts that you have/

This is not to say the Imams(as) were not given hidden knowledge which they were

Edited by SLAVE_OF_ALLAH
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I remember he mentioned in his SAW last sermon, that he was told (by angel?) he would die soon. The sermon was the one at ghadir, mutawatir.

What you fail to realise is that (SAW) didnt know the exact time of his death as this is knowledge with Allah (SWT) & NOT with anyone else. SO again, if the Prophet (SAW) didnt know this how on earth would an Imam know this!!!

you already got answered:

Im sorry, but there is a contradiction in the statement "Allah alone knows the unseen. It was not made known to any save the Holy Prophet" & then a quote of the Imam is given, so which is it? the aforementioned or the latter?

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Instead of being dishonest, as this is not the first time you post nothing and claim something. Please post them so that we can have a look at them and their context, have you actually read al kafi? be honest, i have my doubts that you have

Oh really, & where have I done that then? You make a claim & then contradict yourself with your statement below? Dont you understand that with Allah (SWT) is knowledge of Past, Present & Future & he gives this knowledge to the Ambiyah & no-one else. As for your false statements, here is your reference The Imam knows his Hour of death and his death is in his control.” (Usool Al-Kafi, Vol. No. 1,Page No. 258). This contradicts the Islamic belief, for not even the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) knew when he was going to die, and he definitely did not do so out of his own control. It is a fundamental belief in Islam that nobody knows when they are going to die and nobody has any control over it save Allah Almighty.

Allah (SWT) in the Quran that everyone’s time of death is decided by Allah and Allah alone: “And no soul can die except by Allah’s leave- a [divine] decree with a fixed term!” (The Noble Quran, 3:145) & “It is Allah that gives life and causes death.” (Quran, 3:156)

This is not to say the Imams(as) were not given hidden knowledge which they were

If you do this, then you destroy Allah's attributes as you give it to a human.

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As a Shia I believe that rasool Allah Mohammad (saws) was connected to Allah 24/7

WHY?

Everything that rasool Allah Mohammad (saws) said, did, showed, approved, disapproved, nodded in approval, frowned on and so forth become the SUNNAH!

Get it!

No need for ijtihad, shura, qiyas, conjure and so forth.

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As a Shia I believe that rasool Allah Mohammad (saws) was connected to Allah 24/7

WHY?

Everything that rasool Allah Mohammad (saws) said, did, showed, approved, disapproved, nodded in approval, frowned on and so forth become the SUNNAH!

Get it!

No need for ijtihad, shura, qiyas, conjure and so forth.

Lets not get emotional now Aladdin, use your "logic" & try to understand text as it was supposed to be & not through distorted eyes!

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Lets not get emotional now Aladdin, use your "logic" & try to understand text as it was supposed to be & not through distorted eyes!

Now try to decipher the following aya:

3:81 Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, confirming what is with you; do you believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do you agree, and take this my covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree."He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

Who you think this rasool is in the above aya?

Keeping in mind that Allah is taking the covenant of all the ambiya, from the first nabi Adam (as) to the khatam al-ambiya, the beloved rasool Allah Mohammad (pbuh).

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What you fail to realise is that (SAW) didnt know the exact time of his death as this is knowledge with Allah (SWT) & NOT with anyone else. SO again, if the Prophet (SAW) didnt know this how on earth would an Imam know this!!!

Im sorry, but there is a contradiction in the statement "Allah alone knows the unseen. It was not made known to any save the Holy Prophet" & then a quote of the Imam is given, so which is it? the aforementioned or the latter?

Indeed, it may seem like a contradiction to you (if you do not understand it). I can apply your same logic to the Holy Quran:

Aal-e-Imran [3:44] This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Prophet!) by inspiration; thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary; nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).

Al-Anaam [6:59] With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth, and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered) but is (inscribed) in a Record Clear (to those who can read).

Yunus [10:20] They say: "Why is not a Sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "The unseen is only for Allah (to know). Then wait ye: I too will wait with you."

Yusuf [12:102] Such is one of the stories of what happened unseen, which We reveal by inspiration unto thee: nor wast thou (present) with them when they concerted their plans together in the process of weaving their plots.

At-Takwir [81:24] Neither doth he withhold grudgingly a knowledge of the unseen.

Al-Baqarah [2:255] "He knows what lies before them and what is after them, And they comprehend not anything of His Knowledge save as He wills."

If we want to take everything for it's literal face value, we can find contradictions even in the Holy Quran. This by no means concludes that the Quran is contradictory (nouzubillah), rather we must understand that every verse has a specific context and scope of understanding. The Quran has multiple meanings which cannot be fully understood without help from those who have undisputed and thorough knowledge of the Book (14 Ma'asoomeen).

Now let's address this issue of having knowledge of the unseen. From the above ayaat of Quran we can conclude that there must be two categories of knowledge of the unseen which Allah (SWT) is discussing, because surely Allah (SWT) is beyond perfect and does not contradict Himself. The first category is the one that Allah claims solely for Himself. The second category is the knowledge of the unseen which He chooses to disclose to those He chooses. This is the only way we can really rectify the seemingly contradicting statements in the above ayaat.

Lets consider that the knowledge of the unseen which Allah (SWT) claims for himself is the infinite, vast, and continuous pool of knowledge of the unseen. Nobody has the same level or exact kind of knowledge as Allah (SWT), His knowledge is unmatched. The second category of the knowledge of the unseen is the portion He discloses to those He chooses. This portion is also present in the large pool of knowledge that comprises the first category. By analyzing these ayaat in this manner we can see that there is no contradiction. Nobody has knowledge of the unseen like Allah (SWT), which is the infinite, vast, and continuous knowledge of the unseen, yet there are certain chosen people who have a portion of the knowledge of the unseen. Since those of the Sunni sect do not believe the Ahlul-Bayt(AS) to be among these chosen people, I'll use Hadhrat Qidhr (as) as an example. From the above ayaat we can also see that our beloved Prophet (as) was also among the chosen people.

Oh really, & where have I done that then? You make a claim & then contradict yourself with your statement below? Dont you understand that with Allah (SWT) is knowledge of Past, Present & Future & he gives this knowledge to the Ambiyah & no-one else. As for your false statements, here is your reference The Imam knows his Hour of death and his death is in his control.” (Usool Al-Kafi, Vol. No. 1,Page No. 258). This contradicts the Islamic belief, for not even the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) knew when he was going to die, and he definitely did not do so out of his own control. It is a fundamental belief in Islam that nobody knows when they are going to die and nobody has any control over it save Allah Almighty.

Allah (SWT) in the Quran that everyone’s time of death is decided by Allah and Allah alone: “And no soul can die except by Allah’s leave- a [divine] decree with a fixed term!” (The Noble Quran, 3:145) & “It is Allah that gives life and causes death.” (Quran, 3:156)

If you do this, then you destroy Allah's attributes as you give it to a human.

"Dont you understand that with Allah (SWT) is knowledge of Past, Present & Future & he gives this knowledge to the Ambiyah & no-one else."

Please don't get in the habit of making unsupported statements, you are in no place to say who Allah (SWT) has given knowledge to.

As for the above ayaat, nobody is saying that the Imam has more power over his death than Allah (SWT) (nouzubillah) or that the Imam knows when he is going to die and Allah(SWT) doesn't (nouzubillah). Lets take a look at the hadith again:

The Imam knows his Hour of death and his death is in his control.” (Usool Al-Kafi, Vol. No. 1,Page No. 258)

The first claim, that the Imam knows his hour of death does not violate any Islamic principles. We have shown that knowledge of one's death is of the unseen knowledge as well, and that it may very well be possible that Allah (SWT) discloses this knowledge to those He chooses. The second claim is that the Imam (as) has control over his death. This should not be interpreted as he has more control than Allah(SWT) (nouzubillah) but should be interpreted as the Imam (as) cannot be blindsided by death and therefore his death is in his control. We can even go further and say that Allah (SWT) has given the Imam (as) the opportunity to exercise control over how, when, where, and why he will die. Ultimately, Allah (SWT) knows the decision that the Imam (as) will make and therefore the time is still decreed, known, and set by Allah (SWT).

This concept of controlling one's death shouldn't be too foreign to the Sunni Sect:

Abu Hurairah narrated: "The Angel of Death was sent to Musa (pbuh). When he came to Musa, Musa slapped him on the eye. The Angel returned to his Lord and said: 'You have sent me to a slave who does not want to die.' Allah said: 'Return to him and tell him to put his hand on the back of an ox and for every hair that will come under it, he will be granted one year of life.' Musa said: 'O Lord! What will happen after that?' Allah replied: 'Then death.' Musa said: 'Let it come now!' Musa then requested Allah to let him die close to the Holy Land so that he would be at a distance of a stone's throw from it." Abu Hurairah added: "Allah's Messenger (pbuh) said: 'If I were there, I would show you his grave below the red sandhill on the side of the road." Sahih Al-Bukhari

"If you do this, then you destroy Allah's attributes as you give it to a human."

I don't understand how you are drawing this conclusion. Let's use an elementary example to discuss this issue. We know that we perceive 2 + 2 as being equal to 4. Allah (SWT) also knows that we perceive 2 + 2 as being equal to 4. According to you we have just "destroyed Allah's attributes" (nouzubillah) because both us and Allah (SWT) know the same piece of knowledge. Now let me use a more relevant example:

Aal-e-Imran [3:44] This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Prophet!) by inspiration; thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary; nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).

This portion knowledge of the unseen was revealed to the Holy Prophet (as). Allah (SWT) is also, of course, aware of this portion of knowledge. Haven't we just "destroyed Allah's (SWT) attributes" (nouzubillah) since only Allah (SWT) has knowledge of the unseen?

Hadhrat Qidhr (as) had a portion of the knowledge of the unseen and he knew when that boy was going to die (he killed him):

Al-Kahf [18:74] Then they proceeded: until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said: "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard-of) thing hast thou done!"

Does this violate any Islamic principles?

Allah (SWT) knows best. May we all be guided to the right path.

Edited by mnaqvi
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Oh really, & where have I done that then? You make a claim & then contradict yourself with your statement below? Dont you understand that with Allah (SWT) is knowledge of Past, Present & Future & he gives this knowledge to the Ambiyah & no-one else. As for your false statements, here is your reference The Imam knows his Hour of death and his death is in his control.” (Usool Al-Kafi, Vol. No. 1,Page No. 258). This contradicts the Islamic belief, for not even the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) knew when he was going to die, and he definitely did not do so out of his own control. It is a fundamental belief in Islam that nobody knows when they are going to die and nobody has any control over it save Allah Almighty.

Allah (SWT) in the Quran that everyone’s time of death is decided by Allah and Allah alone: “And no soul can die except by Allah’s leave- a [divine] decree with a fixed term!” (The Noble Quran, 3:145) & “It is Allah that gives life and causes death.” (Quran, 3:156)

still not 1 hadith, im now really starting to wonder whether you have read al kafi or if you are basically copying a reference from an anti islamic website, you are making assumptions about something you have not shown any proof, i ask you against instead of posting (Usool Al-Kafi, Vol. No. 1,Page No. 258) post the hadith with the chain so we can analyse the context, if you dont it will prove you have not read the hadiths.

If you do this, then you destroy Allah's attributes as you give it to a human.

How can we discuss with those who believe the Prophets(s) commited sins? astrafagrallah We are not destroying anything, Allah(swt) gives to his Prophets(s) and Imams(as) some hidden knowledge of the unseen, this does not mean that they are independant of their creator in anyway, have you not read the Quran? this is not something out of the ordinary

Edited by SLAVE_OF_ALLAH
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How can we discuss with those who believe the Prophets(s) commited sins?

When did I say that Muhammed (SAW) committed sins, stop putting words in my mouth, this is a totally different topic!

still not 1 hadith, im now really starting to wonder whether you have read al kafi or if you are basically copying a reference from an anti islamic website, you are making assumptions about something you have not shown any proof, i ask you against instead of posting (Usool Al-Kafi, Vol. No. 1,Page No. 258) post the hadith with the chain so we can analyse the context, if you dont it will prove you have not read the hadiths.

Usul al-Kafi Book 4: The Book of Divine Proof Chapter 48 The past and the future

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq I know whatever is in the skies and whatever is on the earth and whatever is in the heaven and whatever is in hell, and also what has already happened and what is going to happen.

Remaining silent for a while and noticing that this had been too much for the audience to believe, he said: I have acquired this knowledge from the Book of God, the Mighty and the Glorious, who says: Details of everything have been explained in it.

This hadith doesnt have a chain of narration, much like alot of the hadiths in Al-Kafi.

astrafagrallah We are not destroying anything, Allah(swt) gives to his Prophets(s) and Imams(as) some hidden knowledge of the unseen, this does not mean that they are independant of their creator in anyway, have you not read the Quran? this is not something out of the ordinary

Have you not read the verses which state that knowledge of events is with Allah (SWT) exclusively, dont you realise that even Muhammed (SAW) wasnt even given this knowledge, so again, please explain to me how does the Imam know the future when the Prophet (SAW) Allah (SWT) greatest creation didnt have an insight to? Dont you realise that you are destroying the Asma Wa Siffat of Allah, by allowing one of his creatures to have an attribute?

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When did I say that Muhammed (SAW) committed sins, stop putting words in my mouth, this is a totally different topic!

dont try to deny that sunni school believes that Prophets(s) can commit sins.

Usul al-Kafi Book 4: The Book of Divine Proof Chapter 48 The past and the future

Imam Jafar as-Sadiq I know whatever is in the skies and whatever is on the earth and whatever is in the heaven and whatever is in hell, and also what has already happened and what is going to happen.

Remaining silent for a while and noticing that this had been too much for the audience to believe, he said: I have acquired this knowledge from the Book of God, the Mighty and the Glorious, who says: Details of everything have been explained in it.

This hadith doesnt have a chain of narration, much like alot of the hadiths in Al-Kafi.

finally thank you. I looked up this reference and the hadith and could not find it in the reference you gave me. there are about 6 hadiths in chapter 48 of the book of divine proof and all have chains.

This hadith doesnt have a chain of narration, much like alot of the hadiths in Al-Kafi.

please dont post rubbish comments like the above, only a very small percentage of the 16000-17000 hadiths in al kafi dont have chains, the rest do. Please instead of posting from anti islamic websites, please check al kafi to see if the chains exist or not.

Have you not read the verses which state that knowledge of events is with Allah (SWT) exclusively, dont you realise that even Muhammed (SAW) wasnt even given this knowledge, so again, please explain to me how does the Imam know the future when the Prophet (SAW) Allah (SWT) greatest creation didnt have an insight to? Dont you realise that you are destroying the Asma Wa Siffat of Allah, by allowing one of his creatures to have an attribute?

Rasulullah(s) was given some knowledge of past and future, many times like the famous event in the battle of Khandaq when ur forefather abu sufyan(LA) sent his kaffir army to attack the muslims and The Prophet(s) broke the rock and gave us 3 future events. Another instance is when the Imam Hussain(as) was born, the Prophet(S) cried immensely and told what was going to happen in Karbala. You are misinterpreting the quran just like ur scholars.

ws

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finally thank you. I looked up this reference and the hadith and could not find it in the reference you gave me. there are about 6 hadiths in chapter 48 of the book of divine proof and all have chains.

Can you find this then?

The Book on Virtue of Knowledge H 679, Ch. 48, h2

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Sinan from Yunus ibn Ya‘qub from al-Harith ibn al-Mughirah and a group of our people, among whom were ‘Abd al-A‘la’, abu ‘Ubaydah and ‘Abdallah ibn Bishr al-Khath‘ami, who have said that they heard abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) say the following. "I certainly know what is the heavens and what is in the earth. I know what is in paradise and what is the fire. I know what was there and what will be there." The narrator has said that the Imam (a.s.) paused for a while and found that what he had just said was much heavy for the audience then he (a.s.) said, "I learned all of it from the book of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has said, "In it there is the clarification of all things."

please dont post rubbish comments like the above, only a very small percentage of the 16000-17000 hadiths in al kafi dont have chains, the rest do. Please instead of posting from anti islamic websites, please check al kafi to see if the chains exist or not.

So you admit that a % of hadith dont have chains?

Rasulullah(s) was given some knowledge of past and future, many times like the famous event in the battle of Khandaq when ur forefather abu sufyan(LA) sent his kaffir army to attack the muslims and The Prophet(s) broke the rock and gave us 3 future events. Another instance is when the Imam Hussain(as) was born, the Prophet(S) cried immensely and told what was going to happen in Karbala. You are misinterpreting the quran just like ur scholars.

ws

Exactly, Rasuallah (SAW) was given this information & this was exclusively for him & other Prophets/Messengers, so now please explain to me without an emotional outburst, how is this information given to the Imams? As Allah (SWT) gives this information to the Nabi's via Wahy, dreams etc. SO how does an Imam recieve this information?

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Can you find this then?

The Book on Virtue of Knowledge H 679, Ch. 48, h2

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Sinan from Yunus ibn Ya‘qub from al-Harith ibn al-Mughirah and a group of our people, among whom were ‘Abd al-A‘la’, abu ‘Ubaydah and ‘Abdallah ibn Bishr al-Khath‘ami, who have said that they heard abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) say the following. "I certainly know what is the heavens and what is in the earth. I know what is in paradise and what is the fire. I know what was there and what will be there." The narrator has said that the Imam (a.s.) paused for a while and found that what he had just said was much heavy for the audience then he (a.s.) said, "I learned all of it from the book of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has said, "In it there is the clarification of all things."

ok this one does exist. I dont know about the authenticity, it may be weak by sanad, but i dont really see a problem with the hadith, you sunnis take everything so literally. Did you even read the hadith properly before rejecting it as "extreme" The imam(as) states that "I learned all of it from the book of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has said, "In it there is the clarification of all things."

this is very understandable for one that looks at it objectively and analyses it properly. sit down and think about what he means before jumping to conclusions. where does he say that he knows it from "himself" or such, what is wrong with the hadith? I find no problem accepting it providing a scholar authenticates it.

there is also this one from the same chapter

H 678, Ch. 48, h 1

Ahmad ibn Muhammad and Muhammad ibn Yahya have narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from Ibrahim ibn Ishaq al-Ahmar from ‘Abdallah ibn Hammad from Sayf al-Tammar who has said that he with a group of Shi‘a were in the presence of abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) in Hijr and the Imam (a.s.) said the following.

"An eye is watching over us." We then looked right and left and did not see anyone. We said, "No eye is watching over us." The Imam (a.s.) said, "I swear by the Lord of the Ka‘ba. I swear by the Lord of the House." He said so three times. "Had I been with Moses and al-Khidr I would have told them that I had more than they did and would have informed them of what they had no knowledge. This is because Moses and al-Khidr were given the knowledge of what was in the past and they were given the knowledge what will be in future or what will exist up to the Day of Judgment while we have inherited all of them from the Messenger of Allah as heirs."

please dont tell me this is problematic to.

from what i gather the Imams(as) know all this from learning the Quran at an extremely high level and also through inheritence from the Prophet(s) i see no problem or extremism here.

So you admit that a % of hadith dont have chains?

I have only come across a very small amount myself, and not all the english translations post the chains, if u look up the arabic the full chains are there and so what? you saying every sunni hadith that exists has chains? look at tabari.

Exactly, Rasuallah (SAW) was given this information & this was exclusively for him & other Prophets/Messengers, so now please explain to me without an emotional outburst, how is this information given to the Imams? As Allah (SWT) gives this information to the Nabi's via Wahy, dreams etc. SO how does an Imam recieve this information?

So you Admit now that Rasulullah(s) had knowledge to the unseen? Alhumdulilah. Now to your question the Imams(as) inherit from the Prophet(s), the knowledge was passed from the Prophet(s) to Imam Ali(as) from Imam Ali(as) to Imam Hasan(as) and Imam Hussain(as) and then passed to the succeeding 9 Imams(as) and this is why all 11 imams(as) were martyred, i ask you if they were innocent sunnis like you ignorants claim, why were they all martyred? why were all oppressed its because they had knowledge that others didnt. Remmeber we believe that all 12 were Chosen By Allah(swt) and we also believe Allah(swt) inspired them with hidden knowledge, this is nothing we hide or deny.

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I have only come across a very small amount myself, and not all the english translations post the chains, if u look up the arabic the full chains are there and so what? you saying every sunni hadith that exists has chains? look at tabari.

Imam Tabari (ra) is most famous for this tafsir & he only wrote one book called Tahdhīb al-Athār which wasnt completed & is still in Arabic, so I dont know why you referenced him.

So you Admit now that Rasulullah(s) had knowledge to the unseen? Alhumdulilah. Now to your question the Imams(as) inherit from the Prophet(s), the knowledge was passed from the Prophet(s) to Imam Ali(as) from Imam Ali(as) to Imam Hasan(as) and Imam Hussain(as) and then passed to the succeeding 9 Imams(as) and this is why all 11 imams(as) were martyred, i ask you if they were innocent sunnis like you ignorants claim, why were they all martyred? why were all oppressed its because they had knowledge that others didnt.

Can you back up your claims which state that this knowledge was given to the Imams by the Prophet (SAW)? Imam Ali (as) wasnt with the Prophet (SAW) all the time, so who told Imam Ali (as) when he wasnt in the presence of Muhammed (SAW)? You maybe need to look into who actually killed the Imams, was it sections of their own followers?

Remember we believe that all 12 were Chosen By Allah(swt) and we also believe Allah(swt) inspired them with hidden knowledge, this is nothing we hide or deny.

Again, hidden knowledge is given to the Ambiyah of Allah (SWT) & no-one else, you still havent proven that Allah (SWT) gave them "hidden knowledge"

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it is generally agreed by most shia that the imams had some form of supernatural knoweldge (that is, knowledge not known to us but of the type known to them, the prophets, etc). they don't agree on how much knowledge this is but in general the idea is accepted.

there is no need to prove this, as the reason for this belief is the reports of the imams and the reports of the companions of the imams - for instance, the imam telling the companion something that he had no normal way of knowing. (for instance, how much money the companion was carrying, or what he had done that morning at home in private, or what would happen in the future)

these reports could be true or false; however there are a lot of them and they are the basis of this belief.

no one asked my personal opinion (and i suspect no one cares), however i am of the opinion that they had/have strong knowledge of the past and future but maybe not every single future event, and that they had the spiritual ability to access knowledge which we could call 'unseen' but did not always make use of that.

maybe some of these ahadith are excessive (ghulat) but that does not deny the basic idea that they had some knowledge that ordinary people don't

this is due to their strong closeness with Allah (swt), and even us as human beings, if we purify our souls, we can acquire knowledge that we wouldn't otherwise have (although not nearly at the same level - but i am giving an example)

obviously someone who doesn't believe in the imamate will dislike this idea. but it is part of our belief and there's no need to be defensive about it.

we can agree to disagree.

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Can you back up your claims which state that this knowledge was given to the Imams by the Prophet (SAW)? Imam Ali (as) wasnt with the Prophet (SAW) all the time, so who told Imam Ali (as) when he wasnt in the presence of Muhammed (SAW)? You maybe need to look into who actually killed the Imams, was it sections of their own followers?

Yes from the Quran,

A dear brother once explained it to me with a verse from the Quran, alhumdulilah i have it on my computer, May Allah(swt) bless him, his response:

28:5) "æäÑíÏ Çä äãä Úáì ÇáÐíä ÇÓÊÖÚÝæÇ Ýí ÇáÇÑÖ æäÌÚáåã ÇÆãÉ æäÌÚáåã ÇáæÇÑËíä " In this ayat, Allah (SWT) says that we want to make the ones who were deemed weak in the land Imams, and make them "AL waritheen" Al waritheen is very important, the reason it is "AL" and not just "waritheen" is because they inherit everything. They inherit the lands, they inherit all the knowledge, they inherit the message, everything. Allah (SWT) made the Imams the heirs of the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and he made them inherit everything including his knowledge which includes some knowledge of the unseen.

and from hadith

Ahmad ibn Muhammad and Muhammad ibn Yahya have narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Husayn from Ibrahim ibn Ishaq al-Ahmar from ‘Abdallah ibn Hammad from Sayf al-Tammar who has said that he with a group of Shi‘a were in the presence of abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) in Hijr and the Imam (a.s.) said the following.

"An eye is watching over us." We then looked right and left and did not see anyone. We said, "No eye is watching over us." The Imam (a.s.) said, "I swear by the Lord of the Ka‘ba. I swear by the Lord of the House." He said so three times. "Had I been with Moses and al-Khidr I would have told them that I had more than they did and would have informed them of what they had no knowledge. This is because Moses and al-Khidr were given the knowledge of what was in the past and they were given the knowledge what will be in future or what will exist up to the Day of Judgment while we have inherited all of them from the Messenger of Allah as heirs."

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Sinan from Yunus ibn Ya‘qub from al-Harith ibn al-Mughirah and a group of our people, among whom were ‘Abd al-A‘la’, abu ‘Ubaydah and ‘Abdallah ibn Bishr al-Khath‘ami, who have said that they heard abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.) say the following. "I certainly know what is the heavens and what is in the earth. I know what is in paradise and what is the fire. I know what was there and what will be there." The narrator has said that the Imam (a.s.) paused for a while and found that what he had just said was much heavy for the audience then he (a.s.) said, "I learned all of it from the book of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has said, "In it there is the clarification of all things."

Yahya bin Abdullah asked imam Musa al-Kadhim saying: “May I be made your ransom, they are claiming that you know the Unseen?” He replied: “Glory be to Allah! Put your hand on my head; by Allah there is no hair on it and on my body except that it has been aroused. No, by Allah it is nothing other than the inheritance from the Messenger of Allah

also refer to hadith 678 68, ch 48 and ch49 in al kafi

there are countless hadiths on this subject in al kafi, behar etc. you posted one yourself, the proof is there but you are not going to accept it because you have made up your mind. Do you even understand why we cannot always be bothered with you people?

You maybe need to look into who actually killed the Imams, was it sections of their own followers?

wooow what a big call. so now the shia killed their own imams(as) do you know how pathetic that sounds? its like saying that sunnis killed omar. The companions of the Imams(as) sacrificed their lives for their masters and Ahlul bayt(as) loved them, do you even know what The Imams(as) said about their most loyal? Zurara(ra) Abu Baseer(ra), Muhammad ibn Muslim(ra), Hammad ibn Isa(ra) and so on? what about bahlool(ra) acted insane to preach the message of pure islam to survive under your forefathers because he loved ahlul bayt(as), ive had enough of you sunnis claiming rubbish. Just admit it was your forefathers who Killed Ahlul bayt(as) all were poisoned or killed by those who accepted the first 3 and followed the way of your school.. Look what your scholars have said about the imams. its amazing you claim allegiance to them and their kaboom your scholars attack the Imams(as)

íÌÈ Ãä íÚÊÈÑ ÍÏíËå ÅÐÇ Ñæì Úäå ÛíÑ ÃæáÇÏå æÔíÚÊå æÃÈì ÇáÕáÊ ÎÇÕÉ ÝÇä ÇáÃÎÈÇÑ ÇáÊí ÑæíÊ Úäå æÊÈíä ÈæÇØíá ÅäãÇ ÇáÐäÈ ÝíåÇ áÃÈì ÇáÕáÊ æáÃæáÇÏå æÔíÚÊå

regarding Imam Jafar Sadiq [as]:

ÞÇá íÍíì Èä ÓÚíÏ : ãÌÇáÏ ÃÍÈ Åáì ãäå ¡ Ýí äÝÓí ãäå ÔÆ

AND

ÞÇá ÇÈä ØÇåÑ íÃÊí Úä ÂÈÇÆå ÈÚÌÇÆÈ

from minhaj

ÞÏ ÇÓÊÑÇÈ ÇáÈÎÇÑí Ýí ÈÚÖ ÍÏíËå áãÇ ÈáÛå Úä íÍíì Èä ÓÚíÏ ÇáÞØÇä Ýíå ßáÇã Ýáã íÎÑÌ áå

from minhaj al sunnah again

æßÇä Úáí Èä ÇáÍÓíä æÇÈäå ÃÈæ ÌÚÝÑ æÇÈäå ÌÚÝÑ ÇÈä ãÍãÏ íÚáãæä ÇáäÇÓ ãÇ Úáãåã Çááå ßãÇ Úáãå ÚáãÇÁ ÒãÇäåã æßÇä Ýí Òãäåã ãä åæ ÃÚáã ãäåã æÃäÝÚ ááÃãÉ

and

æÃãÇ ãä ÈÚÏ ÇáËáÇËÉ ßÇáÚÓßÑííä ÝåÄáÇÁ áã íÙåÑ Úáíåã Úáã ÊÓÊÝíÏå ÇáÃãÉ æáÇ ßÇä áåã íÏ ÊÓÊÚíä Èå ÇáÃãÉ Èá ßÇäæÇ ßÃãËÇáåã ãä ÇáåÇÔãííä

and he keeps barking

áÇ ÑíÈ Ãä ãÇ íäÞáå ÇáÝÞåÇÁ Úä ãËá ÃÈí ÍäíÝÉ æãÇáß æÇáÔÇÝÚí æÃÍãÏ æÛíÑåã åæ ÃÕÍ ããÇ íäÞáå ÇáÑæÇÝÖ Úä ãËá ÇáÚÓßÑííä æãÍãÏ Èä Úáí ÇáÌæÇÏ æÃãËÇáåã æáÇ ÑíÈ Ãä åÄáÇÁ ÃÚáã ÈÏíä ÇáäÈí Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã ãä ÃæáÆß

more barking

ÝÇáÒåÑí ÃÚáã ÈÃÍÇÏíË ÇáäÈí Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã æÃÍæÇáå æÃÞæÇáå æÃÝÚÇáå ÈÇÊÝÇÞ Ãåá ÇáÚáã ãä ÃÈí ÌÚÝÑ ãÍãÏ Èä Úáí æßÇä ãÚÇÕÑÇ áå æÃãÇ ãæÓì Èä ÌÚÝÑ æÚáí Èä ãæÓì æãÍãÏ Èä Úáí ÝáÇ íÓÊÑíÈ ãä áå ãä ÇáÚáã äÕíÈ Ãä ãÇáß Èä ÃäÓ æÍãÇÏ Èä ÒíÏ ÍãÇÏ Èä ÓáãÉ æÇááíË Èä ÓÚÏ æÇáÃæÒÇÚí æíÍíì Èä ÓÚíÏ ææßíÚ Èä ÇáÌÑÇÍ æÚÈÏÇááå ÇÈÇáãÈÇÑß æÇáÔÇÝÚí æÃÍãÏ Èä ÍäÈá æÅÓÍÇÞ Èä ÑÇåæíå æÃãËÇáåã ÃÚáã ÈÃÍÇÏíË ÇáäÈí ÕáìÇááå Úáíå æÓáã ãä åÄáÇÁ

Ibn tayimmah(la) likes to open his mouth doesnt he?

and the most clearest Mr Ibn Khaldoon slanders the Imams(as) and accuses them of inventing a religion and lying about their infallibility and status,

æÔÐ Ãåá ÇáÈíÊ ÈãÐÇåÈ ÇÈÊÏÚæåÇ æÝÞå ÇäÝÑÏæÇ Èå æÈäæå Úáì ãÐåÈåã Ýí ÊäÇæá ÈÚÖ ÇáÕÍÇÈÉ ÈÇáÞÏÍ æÚáì Þæáåã ÈÚÕãÉ ÇáÃÆãÉ æÑÝÚ ÇáÎáÇÝ Úä ÃÞæÇáåã æåí ßáåÇ ÃÕæá æÇåíÉ æÔÐ ÈãËá Ðáß ÇáÎæÇÑÌ æáã íÍÊÝá ÇáÌãåæÑ ÈãÐÇåÈåã Èá ÃæÓÚæåÇ ÌÇäÈ ÇáÅäßÇÑ æÇáÞÏÍ ÝáÇ äÚÑÝ ÔíÆÇ ãä ãÐÇåÈåã æáÇ äÑæí ßÊÈåã æáÇ ÃËÑ áÔíÁ ãäåÇ ÅáÇ Ýí ãæÇØäåã ÝßÊÈ ÇáÔíÚÉ Ýá ÈáÇÏåã æÍíË ßÇäÊ ÏæáÊåã ÞÇÆãÉ Ýí ÇáãÛÑÈ æÇáãÔÑÞ æÇáíãä

Imam Dhahabi records the following opinion of the Imam of Ahle Sunnah Sufiyan Thawri about Imam Jafar Sadiq [as]:

Sufyan said: 'We used to laugh at the hadith obtainer if he went to three, Rabeea, Muhammad bin Abi Bakar bin Hazm and Jafar bin Muhammad because they were not good in hadith.'

Siyar alam al-Nubala, Volume 6 page 91

Imam Jawad(as) wasn’t left alone

ÞÇá ÇÈä ØÇåÑ íÃÊí Úä ÂÈÇÆå ÈÚÌÇÆÈ

so just stay quiet on who killed the imams(as) and also what the belief of the imams(as) its not in your best interests.

ws

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Can you find this then?

The Book on Virtue of Knowledge H 679, Ch. 48, h2

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Sinan from Yunus ibn Ya'qub from al-Harith ibn al-Mughirah and a group of our people, among whom were 'Abd al-A'la', abu 'Ubaydah and 'Abdallah ibn Bishr al-Khath'ami, who have said that they heard abu 'Abdallah (a.s.) say the following. "I certainly know what is the heavens and what is in the earth. I know what is in paradise and what is the fire. I know what was there and what will be there." The narrator has said that the Imam (a.s.) paused for a while and found that what he had just said was much heavy for the audience then he (a.s.) said, "I learned all of it from the book of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has said, "In it there is the clarification of all things."

That hadeeth is classed as da'eef by Shi'i scholars because Muhammad ibn Sinan is in the chain.

So you admit that a % of hadith dont have chains?

Are you referring to mursal hadeeth? If so, they exist in Sunni books as well. Besides which, no hadeeth which is mursal can be saheeh. The book is called Al-Kafi, but it's not Saheeh Al-Kafi ...

Edited by Abdul Qaim
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Alot has been said of the Imams on this forum, it has been narrated in some Shia Hadith books that the Imams know the past, present & future. Do all Shia's agree with this concept?

(salam)

This may help you to find a proper answer from Ayatollah Fadlullah - http://english.bayyn...tsKnowledge.htm

Since the prophet (pbuh) only knew what Allah told him and allowed him to know, so was similar the imams (as) this is our view on this matter, other shia scholars, and followers may disagree.

(wasalam)

Edited by theunknownpreacher
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(salam)

This may help you to find a proper answer from Ayatollah Fadlullah - http://english.bayyn...tsKnowledge.htm

Since the prophet (pbuh) only knew what Allah told him and allowed him to know, so was similar the imams (as) this is our view on this matter, other shia scholars, and followers may disagree.

(wasalam)

Sayed Fadhlullah's views on many matters do not concur with those of the majority of Shi'ah 'ulama.

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