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In the Name of God بسم الله

Racism In Islam

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Try being a Pakistani Punjabi Shia.

'Oh they are a bunch of malangs'

'Oh they don't do taqleed'

'Oh they just do matam and nothing else'

'Oh they don't pay khums'

'Oh they never read namaz'

I could go on but I can't be bothered. You will find plenty of it on this board.

Or try being a Pakistani pathan shia, its so frustrating sometimes that I want to bang mu head on a wall.

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no need for balancing what i say describing matters the OP opened with is on topic you will find that Pakistanis and Arabs cherish the women in their race and see the lunacy in disowning them in front of others. take a look at the context in the OP and you will see the relevance of my reply

I (a black man who witness these convos out of 'sisters' ear shot) have no intention of bashing myself for the entertainment of shia chatters.

BTW I do not see how --->

<---apply to all and sundry. I am only acknowledging this in the people who were enslaved. So i will clearly dissociate myself from your saying this before some idiot starts 'stuff ' (MY DISCLAIMER)

your memory's returned... good? however the problem i outlined does not cease to exist I have not forgotten 'the nice guys' in my post this discussion is not about 'nice guys' period.

TO OP I now know why I wont discuss/highlight :squeez:

mi gone

As salaam alaykum,

Please don't leave on my account. My apologies if I've offended you.

It seems to me that this discussion is becoming about inappropriate generalizations that are especially insulting to black men. I want to balance that, especially because we are involved in a thread about racism and I don't want to perpetuate racist stereotypes.

Just because you've been privy to a few (or many) conversations where black men complain about black women and you haven't been privy to such conversations amongst Arabs or Indians you've drawn some conclusions about other men "cherishing" their women and black men not doing so. I disagree. I grew up in a very black city in a pretty black part of the country amongst plenty of black men who LOVED black women and made it very clear that they thought we were the be all and end all of beauty, intelligence, competence and female grace. Once I became a Shi'a Muslim, I saw less of that, but I chalk a lot of that up to the area I was in not because I think all or most black Shi'a men have inferiority complexes. Frankly, most black men (Sunni, Shi'a, Christian, atheist whathaveyou) marry black women, so black male opinion of black women clearly isn't *that* abysmal. In my own circle of associates, most of the women are married to men outside of their own racial group. Some of these women complain about men from their husband's racial group, sometimes far too much. But I'm 99% sure that if they had it to do all over again, they'd marry from that group again. For example, when I've asked some white women if they'd have preferred to marry white men they usually answer with a swift "no!" People love to gripe. It's not good, but it's a normal human thing to do and we shouldn't draw too many conclusions from it.

Anyway, enough airing of the laundry. I just think it's unfair to decide that because some black men you've met have issues, that most or all black men don't "cherish" black women the way other men do.

Edited by AnotherUmmAli
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Or try being a Pakistani pathan shia, its so frustrating sometimes that I want to bang mu head on a wall.

Or try being a Pakistani anything Shia. You will have enough anti [insert ethnic group here] bigotry to bang your head over. I have my stories to tell. :(

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As salaam alaykum,

Please don't leave on my account. My apologies if I've offended you.

It seems to me that this discussion is becoming about inappropriate generalizations that are especially insulting to black men. I want to balance that, especially because we are involved in a thread about racism and I don't want to perpetuate racist stereotypes.

Just because you've been privy to a few (or many) conversations where black men complain about black women and you haven't been privy to such conversations amongst Arabs or Indians you've drawn some conclusions about other men "cherishing" their women and black men not doing so. I disagree. I grew up in a very black city in a pretty black part of the country amongst plenty of black men who LOVED black women and made it very clear that they thought we were the be all and end all of beauty, intelligence, competence and female grace. Once I became a Shi'a Muslim, I saw less of that, but I chalk a lot of that up to the area I was in not because I think all or most black Shi'a men have inferiority complexes. Frankly, most black men (Sunni, Shi'a, Christian, atheist whathaveyou) marry black women, so black male opinion of black women clearly isn't *that* abysmal. In my own circle of associates, most of the women are married to men outside of their own racial group. Some of these women complain about men from their husband's racial group, sometimes far too much. But I'm 99% sure that if they had it to do all over again, they'd marry from that group again. For example, when I've asked some white women if they'd have preferred to marry white men they usually answer with a swift "no!" People love to gripe. It's not good, but it's a normal human thing to do and we shouldn't draw too many conclusions from it.

Anyway, enough airing of the laundry. I just think it's unfair to decide that because some black men you've met have issues, that most or all black men don't "cherish" black women the way other men do.

I wont defend my posts if you think you are saving the day and keeping a balance but i will say the post was for the OP it was addressed to her saying

Really these forums should be dynamic and not just redundant and stuck in the mire of religion.

Real people in the Ummah need real answers to everyday social issues. I am sorry but sometimes

Hadith and Quran together can't answer the questions.

that was the context....it was in no way intended to please all the people all the time. so hopefully we can move on and leave that answer in its context . Explaining myself and double thinking elongates an issue i mean what i say and say what i mean it is anyone's guess how they will use/corrupt a posting. so if someone wanted to draw gross stereo types from one posting they have themselves to blame!

Edited by Mohammed-W
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As salam alaykum,

Leda, I'm sorry that I can't offer you more. All of my books are packed up right now, and I don't have much time for googling these things. If/when I come across the numerous other hadith on this issue, I'll try to post them.

"O Mankind, We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is he who is the most righteous of you" (Quran 49:13).

"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood." From the Prophet's (saawas) last sermon.

The Prophet (S.A.W.) had said:

"My father be sacrificed on the mother of the 9th Imam who will be a pure and pious Nubian."

Imam Ja’far as Sadiq married Hamida Khaton (ra) and she was the mother of Imam Musa Al Kadhim (as). The records state that she was from the Barbary coast. Europeans called NW Africa (Tunisia, Morocco etc.) the Barbary coast, but Arabs called that area the Maghrib. According to Dr. Hamid Algar for Arabs of that time Barbary referred to East Africa, so it was highly unlikely that the mother of Imam Musa Al Kadhim (as) was a light skinned Berber and very likely that she was a darker skinned W. African.

Also, check out this nice pamphlet http://www.al-islam.org/nutshell/files/asabiyyah.pdf

The Prophet (saawas) also stated that Salman (ra)- who came to Medina as the Persian slave of a Jewish master- was from ahl al bayt. There are hadith about honor being in akhlaq and *not* lineage and the belief in the idea that lineage alone brings honor is from the time of jahiliyya. There is also a hadith where Imam Ja'far As Sadiq (as) advises that nubian women should be married because of their purity and, I believe, piety. I'm sorry, I don't have these things memorized, but if I can find sources I will post them InshaAllah.

Edited by AnotherUmmAli
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Brothers and sisters, this is a very big issue and I'm glad someone brought it up. Actually black women are statistically the least-desired women in multiracial societies, whether it's Muslims or non-Muslims you're talking about. And it's very sad, a lot of times they're made to feel unwanted and many of them NEVER get married, which leads to inevitable temptations and zina and illegitimate children. This wrecks the collective reputation of black women even further, until everyone THINKS that it's okay to treat them like trash. Yes black men a lot of times insult black women, which is stupid because then they'd have to insult their mothers too!

It's a BLASPHEMY that in Masjids and so-called Muslim societies there is so much racism. I mean it's one thing if you say "I don't get along with such and such race even though I'm not racist", but instead we have people flat out calling others SLAVES (of something OTHER than Allah) and also dirty and bondsmen, and in fact Muslims segregate themselves into cliques along racial lines. The Prophet (pbuh) did not allow this, in fact he said that all Muslims must treat each other as brothers. In fact as Shias we should all be aware that it was the racist members of the sahaba (i.e. the "tribalist Arabs") who eventually wrecked the Caliphate and became oppressors.

1. Abu Bakr - though today Sunnis often praise him as a fighter against racism for freeing Bilal from Slavery, he didn't ever consider Bilal as his brother in Islam, this is evident from the incident of Saqifah, where Bilal REFUSED to recognize Abu Bakr as the khalifa, thus Bilal was one of the first Shia! But Abu Bakr then became arrogant and said "why will you not give me allegiance? Didn't I free you from captivity when you were a mere lowly slave?" as if to say that Bilal owed him something, or that his freedom had been conditional! Sorry Mr. Bakr, you don't get ANY thawwab (reward) for a good deed if you act like the person now owes you something, or if you are constantly injuring them by reminding them of your generosity. just because you freed a slave doesn't mean you deserve the Khilafat. Muhammad (saw) actually paid the price of Bilal's freedom, and he and Ali(as), not Abu Bakr, freed the most slaves.

2. Umar - there is ample evidence, even from Nasibis like Mughirah bin Shuba, that Umar HATED non-Arab Muslims, especially Persians. The man who killed Umar was a Persian slave, Abu Lolo Firooz, who worked for Mughira, Mughira abused him and he desperately asked Umar to help him, Umar refused. Mughira later recalled: As for the Mawali (non-Arab Muslims), it is known that Ali was friendly to them, whereas Umar hated them. Umar was killed by a man of the ethnicity he hated most. And Allah knows best.

3. Uthman - he was not just racist but tribalist, he considered his own family better than all other Arab tribes. He put his cousins into the top position of power even when they were totally incompetent, and allowed them to raid public coffers and build up huge armies. In Egypt he allowed Amr Bin Aas to kill and torture thousands of Muslims who disagreed with Uthman's policies. Ali (as) interceded for the egyptians and got a a signed agreement from Uthman, but then Uthman broke the agreement and a secret message telling Amr to torture more people was intercepted by the Egyptians. They said "Uthman, this message is in your secretary's handwriting - either you ordered this and are unfit to rule, or it was done without your knowledge and you are unaware of what is being done in your name and are still unfit to rule!". Every one of those egyptians was killed. Not surprisingly, the Egyptians were among those who joined the angry mob that killed Uthman! Allah knows best!

4. Mu'awiya - began an official policy of persecution of Iranians and the banning of the persian language in an attempt to eradicate Persian culture.

5. Yazid - made this process even worse and bloodier

6. Marwan and Abdul Malik hired Hajjaj to do their dirty work, he killed over 100,000 Persians in an attempt to wipe out Persian language and culture.

8. Later Umayyads and Abbasids - made it ILLEGAL to speak and teach farsi for OVER 200 YEARS!!!

Of course as a result of this Iranians often hate Arabs today and thus we see how hate breeds more hate.

And lets not forget the "Moorish" Umayyads who oppressed blacks and engaged in slave trade! And also the Zanj, who were forced to work in sweltering marshes near Basra, with very bad food, they revolted and that's no surprise.

All these tribalist Arabs seem to have forgotten the words of Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (as) who said "He who has even a tiny bit of 'asabiyyah (prejudice) in his heart, even to the amount of a mustard seed, will be resurrected with the polytheist Arabs of Jahiliyyah!" (i.e. he will not even smell the scent of paradise).

Edited by Shia Shahid
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LOL. Someone posted the same lecture on SC last summers and it was dissected thoroughly. The most obvious flaw in this lecture is that the method of approaching the issue is ineffective and anachronistic. Again, there is a difference between pious words and actually addressing the issue in contemporary Muslim societies.

salamunalikum,.

1) in that same discussion, it was made clear that relevance of lecture was in relation to black history month

2) how this discussion began makes the lecture even more emphatic-- point made by Sayed Ammar :)

Ya Ali

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salamunalikum,.

1) in that same discussion, it was made clear that relevance of lecture was in relation to black history month

2) how this discussion began makes the lecture even more emphatic-- point made by Sayed Ammar :)

Ya Ali

He totally missed the boat on a really important issue. His examples of racists were of non-Muslims in contexts outside of Canada - not exactly hitting the target of racism within the Shia community. As someone already pointed out - people who address these issues need to be educated enough in the area to have the ability to apply this knowldege meaningfully and to transfer or generalize the teaching to current situations within the ummah.

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Hazrat Fizza ra.gif at Karbala did her best to protect Hazrat Zainab as.gif and the women of Imam Hussain's as.gif army. She was her friend and supporter through all the trials and torment. During his life Imam Hussain as.gif paid her great respect.

If the world is disrespectful to blacks and black women in particular, Imam Hussain's as.gif actions are a slap on their faces.

Personally I've always found blacks more attractive than whites in the looks arena.

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Hazrat Fizza ra.gif at Karbala did her best to protect Hazrat Zainab as.gif and the women of Imam Hussain's as.gif army. She was her friend and supporter through all the trials and torment. During his life Imam Hussain as.gif paid her great respect.

If the world is disrespectful to blacks and black women in particular, Imam Hussain's as.gif actions are a slap on their faces.

Personally I've always found blacks more attractive than whites in the looks arena.

WAIT a SECOND! You're saying that Hazrat Fizza(ra) was black? I seriously never knew that! All I knew was that she was a mo'min and always knew the right Qur'an verse to answer any dilemma, but as to her ethnic origins I never knew the facts.... that's is very interesting.

I DO know that black Sahaba were some of the most faithful of the Sahaba, and of all Muslims. Bilal, and also Usama bin Zaid, were both unwavering companions of the Prophet (saw) and his family, and they would definitely be considered near-perfect Shia by today's standards. They prayed often, were humble and honest in every regard, gave charity, and never regressed into the old ways of Jahiliyya like many of the Arabs did. Nor did they have any kind of racial or tribal prejudice, they TRULY believed in the brotherhood of all Muslims. Because as former slaves they personally had felt the torment of how bad Jahiliyya really was! Truly a far cry from today's negative image of blacks, with this stupid pop culture of all the fake "rapper pimps" and all the bling-bling, drug dealers and dope junkies, imitating the materialistic ways of the white slave-masters and even trying to outdo them in ostentatious displays of greed. Bilal and Usama should be the role models, not these guys!

As for looks... that's one's personal preference. There are a lot of good looking black women, the problem is a lot of times many cultures seem to only see the ugly ones! I'm Persian, and very sad to say, some people in my family could never imagine such thing as a pretty black woman even existing. They can barely stomach a pretty Asian at first! And white women only catch their attention if they're blond lol! And that causes friction because when it comes to whites, I prefer brunettes to blondes hands down.

Sometimes family and friends can seriously get crazy about ethnicity, who they want you to marry, forcing their own standards of beauty on you, etc. Half of the Persian women I've seen are too thin for my taste anyway. They seriously need more beef and rice.

Edited by Shia Shahid
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I had written this yesterday but just now edited it, because of tiredness i had put the wrong salutation in the original post yesterday, only just noticed it, so here the corrected version

(salam) Rascism is a big problem in the world and the Ummah being part of the world is no exception of the rule. In the early years after the departure of Rasul (pbuh) the corruption of the Ummah started by Umar introducing the rascist Mawalis system (ofcourse it got abolished by Imam Ali a.s., but re-introduced again by Mu'awiya). And we shouldn't forget that the first Europeans who started to ship African slaves were the Portugese and Spanish who picked up the idea of using Africans for slaves from their southern neighbours; the Moroccon Arabs. Rascism is so deeply imbedded in Arab society, that when Sheikh Adel Al-Kalbani was appointed as the first Afro-Arabian imam in S-Arabia, a year or so ago, he called his appointment as imam "a brave descision"..! (can you imagine more than 1300 years after Bilal, and centuries of African influx through slavery into the Arabian penninsula, hell even three quarter of the national Saudi football team is Afro-Arabian!, never ever in all those centuries they've had an Afro-Arabian imam..!!!!). Well, better late than never.

But there is also another side to the story, sometimes people experience something as racial discrimination, when it isn't meant as such. For example the usage of the word black, i have ever hardly heard it used as demeaning, but always as descriptive. For example two people talk about "this guy said something very interresting", and the other person asks "which guy?", "the black guy". It is meant descriptive like; "the white guy" , not demeaning at all. Let's suppose the person in that conversation wants to be politically correct and says instead of "the black guy" he says "the guy that always wears a green cap". Than the other person will proberly scratch his head, and just to make sure that they are talking about the same person will ask "you mean the black guy with the green cap?" No evil intend. Another thing is that people may behave odd, not because they dislike you, naugh they may even die to get to know you better, but they just don't know how to behave in the odd situation of a "stranger" among familiar faces. But yes sometimes there is discriminational talk but if you would pay attention it is mostly the case when a group of a certain minority meets who in their uncertainty of being a minority within an ocean of "others" seek to find comfort in each other by pointing out their own virtues against the lack of it in others, basically these people suffer from an identity crisis and therefor try to re-enforce a fantasy identity that they can belong to and feel good again about themselves, it is mostly these people that don't really want "sttrangers" to join their Jamaat, for that will be read as an intrution into their bubble of safe identity fantasy. With those cases religion has nothing to do with it, you'll find the same xenofobia among the local "Chinese ethnic" football team, Instead of the ethnic based footballteam they use the ethnic based Mosque. And this can go very far, i've seen it with my own eyes in the Mosque of Maseru the capitol of Lesotho. The Muslims in Lesotho were pre-dominantly descendants of Indians planted in Lesotho by the former British rulers. Now it so happened that Ahmad Deedat had send two Malawian Muslim brother to Lesotho to set up the 'Lesotho Islamic Information Services' to bring the glory of Islam to the local people of Lesotho (something the Indians well over a century never had done). Anyway my dear African friend mr Muhammad Abbas of Malawi was so succesfull that more and more Basotho embraced Islam and came to the Mosque of Maseru. You know what the Indian ruled Jamaat did? They quickly got an old imam for the Maseru Mosque from India who didn't speak a word of English and hence all the sermons were suddenly in Urdu, which the Basotho ofcourse didn't understand. But for the Indian based Jamaat it had a different dimension, they would argue; "But it is our Mosque, we bought it and build it, it is the only place we have in this country where we can meet each other on the friday, does ahmad Deedat want to take this our place away from us and give it to the Basotho?" Ofcourse they would never say that in public for the code of moral conduct prescribed that they should be happy with the spread of Islam amongst the locals, which they obviously weren't , and hence also hypocritcy enters the scene to make things just a bit more complicated than it allready was.

And than again if you look different from everyone around you it is easy, and almost automatic, to think that sometimes sorten people behave in a sorten way towards you just "because you look different". and i am sure that your "not black" husband will complain from time to time about some of your "black" aquentances treating him in a sorten way just because "he is white" (or whatever colour he is), true isn't it? and than you have to explain that this person treats everyone like that or whatever. Some years ago there was a very good documentary on the BBC where a white guy was made up like a black guy and a black guy was made up to look like a white guy. Interrestingly the black man who was made to look white and was filmed undercover mixing with white people (who didn't know he was really black), which was something he never had done, said in the end of that documentary that all his life he thought that white people were deep inside rascist, but had now discovered that he himself was the one with the biggest prejudice. Not everything is as black and white as it seems on the surface. (wasalam)

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WAIT a SECOND! You're saying that Hazrat Fizza(ra) was black? I seriously never knew that! All I knew was that she was a mo'min and always knew the right Qur'an verse to answer any dilemma, but as to her ethnic origins I never knew the facts.... that's is very interesting.

Fizza and Bilal both were from Abyssinia = modern day Ethiopia and Eritrea. Both were black.

For example the usage of the word black, i have ever hardly heard it used as demeaning, but always as descriptive. For example two people talk about "this guy said something very interresting", and the other person asks "which guy?", "the black guy". It is meant descriptive like; "the white guy" , not demeaning at all. Let's suppose the person in that conversation wants to be politically correct and says instead of "the black guy" he says "the guy that always wears a green cap". Than the other person will proberly scratch his head, and just to make sure that they are talking about the same person will ask "you mean the black guy with the green cap?" No evil intend.

Back in the day calling a black person black carried negative connotations. Therefore good white people avoided calling someone black. They used terms like coloured etc. The usage of the term changed over time especially due to the increased usage of 'black' by the black people themselves. It is no longer negative to call someone black if they are so. It is not demeaning at all. At least not in English and/or in the West. But there is a degree of negativity attached with the equivalent of the term 'black ' in Eastern languages. In Urdu, "kala" for male and "kali" for female - which literally means "black" is not a nice word to call a dark skinned person. 'Aswad' and 'abd'[?] in Arabic also connotes negativity. That is due to the ubiquitous aversion of many Easterners [Middle Easterners as well as South Asians] towards darker skins.

Black is beautiful.

said in the end of that documentary that all his life he thought that white people were deep inside rascist, but had now discovered that he himself was the one with the biggest prejudice. .

Exactly. Hating a group of people because you believe that they are racists is actually being racist yourself. Many non-white Muslims would reach at this self-diagnosis if they thought about it.

Not everything is as black and white as it seems on the surface.

Indeed. Most are brown. :D

Edited by Marbles
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salaam to all

sorry to hear that you have to deal with some non sense like that.

you know it's funny just the other day I was thinking that i never met a racist Muslim. (zionism is not a race)

I've never dealt with it. Maybe it's because my father is Palestinian and in Islam you are what your father is so i guess people ignore the fact that my mother is black.

But even then I just never seen it happening to other people. From my point of view I see all Muslims treated equal by each other then again i haven't seen the whole world just my immediate vicinity

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Exactly. Hating a group of people because you believe that they are racists is actually being racist yourself. Many non-white Muslims would reach at this self-diagnosis if they thought about it.

(salam)

Brother, can you please explain this to me?

The dictionary defines racism as:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Thanks

w/s

Çááåã Õá Úáì ãÍãÏ æÇá ãÍãÏ

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(salam)

Brother, can you please explain this to me?

The dictionary defines racism as:

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.

3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Thanks

w/s

Çááåã Õá Úáì ãÍãÏ æÇá ãÍãÏ

There are many different dictionaries - so there is no such thing as "the" English dictionaries....but anyways - his comment would fall under Definition 1 as he is describing someone giving negative character attributes/belief systems based on the colour of their skin. Negative thoughts of others are brought about by your environment; colour of your skin is brought about by your genetics.

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There are many different dictionaries - so there is no such thing as "the" English dictionaries....but anyways - his comment would fall under Definition 1 as he is describing someone giving negative character attributes/belief systems based on the colour of their skin. Negative thoughts of others are brought about by your environment; colour of your skin is brought about by your genetics.

(salam)

Thanks for the reply

w/s

Çááåã Õá Úáì ãÍãÏ æÇá ãÍãÏ

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WAIT a SECOND! You're saying that Hazrat Fizza(ra) was black? I seriously never knew that! All I knew was that she was a mo'min and always knew the right Qur'an verse to answer any dilemma, but as to her ethnic origins I never knew the facts.... that's is very interesting.

Yup. There's a story told in majalis about her and Hazrat Zainab as.gif in the court of Yazid. Some soldier/soldiers advanced towards Hazrat Zainabas.gif menacingly and she put herself between them. The soldiers raised their hands to her and all the blacks in the court immediately stood up saying not to harm one of their homeland.

On the other hand, stories told in Urdu majalis are notoriously reckless with respect to authenticity and I'm not sure if it's true. But it is often repeated and it stuck to me.

In Urdu, "kala" for male and "kali" for female - which literally means "black" is not a nice word to call a dark skinned person

.

Lol! Oh, but that doesn't stop the Dadi-Auntie brigade from going "oooooooh her new baby is so kali/kala!"

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Lol! Oh, but that doesn't stop the Dadi-Auntie brigade from going "oooooooh her new baby is so kali/kala!"

Exactly. Dark skinned newborns are called kala/kali to convey dissatisfaction and somewhat regret on the colour of their skin. If you want to convey a factual truth, you use word like 'sanwla(i)' which actually means 'dark skinned'. The usage of 'sanwla', in some cases, is polite and respectable but it can also be very loaded. "Larki sanwali hai" [The girl is dark skinned] may mean she is not 'white' enough.

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Exactly. Dark skinned newborns are called kala/kali to convey dissatisfaction and somewhat regret on the colour of their skin. If you want to convey a factual truth, you use word like 'sanwla(i)' which actually means 'dark skinned'. The usage of 'sanwla', in some cases, is polite and respectable but it can also be very loaded. "Larki sanwali hai" [The girl is dark skinned] may mean she is not 'white' enough.

That is pretty common here, people tend to equate dark skin with ugliness which is honestly pretty strange. I have seen people disliking people with green/blue eyes because they superstitiously think that these colors equate to cunning and unfaithfulness. Again, I think these notions stems out of ignorance and travel down generations without people questioning them.

Exactly. Dark skinned newborns are called kala/kali to convey dissatisfaction and somewhat regret on the colour of their skin. If you want to convey a factual truth, you use word like 'sanwla(i)' which actually means 'dark skinned'. The usage of 'sanwla', in some cases, is polite and respectable but it can also be very loaded. "Larki sanwali hai" [The girl is dark skinned] may mean she is not 'white' enough.

That is pretty common here, people tend to equate dark skin with ugliness which is honestly pretty strange. I have seen people disliking people with green/blue eyes because they superstitiously think that these colors equate to cunning and unfaithfulness. Again, I think these notions stems out of ignorance and travel down generations without people questioning them.

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Exactly. Dark skinned newborns are called kala/kali to convey dissatisfaction and somewhat regret on the colour of their skin. If you want to convey a factual truth, you use word like 'sanwla(i)' which actually means 'dark skinned'. The usage of 'sanwla', in some cases, is polite and respectable but it can also be very loaded. "Larki sanwali hai" [The girl is dark skinned] may mean she is not 'white' enough.

That is pretty common here, people tend to equate dark skin with ugliness which is honestly pretty strange. I have seen people disliking people with green/blue eyes because they superstitiously think that these colors equate to cunning and unfaithfulness. Again, I think these notions stems out of ignorance and travel down generations without people questioning them.

You know what I blame? The elder-worship we have here. Sure, respecting our elders and benefitting from their experience and advice is totally Islamic. But what has Pakistani (and I presume Indian) culture done? I know in my family circle you cannot even THINK of hinting that someone elder than you is wrong or behaving inappropriately. There's a social hierachy in most of our homes which do not permit concepts different from the way of the elders as this translates as "disrespect". I'm not talking about challenging old ideas and trading them in for new ones (also an issue, but I'm not talking about that). I'm talking of a system where after people hit 40, or their hair turns grey or they suddenly become grandparents, they start innovating new things, creating a mini-kingdom in their homes where THEY are elite and THEIR rules apply. These new rules basically elevate their own qualities, their own thinking, their own ethnicity, and degrade everybody who is actually better than them. This is out of jealousy, like daadis/aunties calling even the fairest baby "kali/kala"- simply because they hate the mother. And men. Have you seen the older men? Their egos hit the ceiling. I've seen old men who have no claims to knowledge insult marja like Ayatullah Sistani, speakers like Allama Talib Johari and Sayed Ammar Nakshawani, noha reciters like Nadeem Sarwar. Why? Jealousy. Once I made a suggestion to one man who insulted Ayatullah Sistani (not criticized-insulted). I asked him whether he was an Ayatullah or had similar knowledge to one. 5 minutes later I was famous as the most badly-behaved young 'un the world had ever seen.

And these elders propagate a system which makes a feel-good environment of bringing down others outside their elite little circle to make themselves look good. And that is one road to racism.

Edited by SayYaAli
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Salam,

Yes, I think that racism does exist in muslim countries, just as it exists among any other countires - unfortunately. But it would be wrong to say "muslims are racists"...lets paraphrase it to "there are muslims, who are racists..."..or better put, there are people claim to be muslim, but they have the sable of jahilliya on their shoes.

I used to live in the Gulf, well, I was not looked down, because I am white, but I WAS looked down, because I am poor. These has not much to do with Islam.

And I remember girls having troubles finding a husband only because their skinw as dark or their father was dark so prospective mother in laws were afraid that "black genes" might come out...in the kids. Thats very sad.

Its all about level of intelligence and iman.

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It's terrible how race effects how people treat each other, especially in a religion as perfect as Islam. Being an African-American Muslim, I have been a victim to racial prejudice by other Muslims. Astagfirullah, some act as though they are better because they are from different countries, which is ridiculous. Every man and woman is equal, but very little act as though they never knew that the Allah (subhannah wa ta'alla) and the Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alayhi wasalam) have stated this.

Remember that those who have treated you such a way will have to answer to Allah on the Last Day

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As salaamu alaykum Brother,

I have to disagree with your argument here. Actually, I find it insulting that you would presume to tell "racial minorities, especially African Americans" that the problem is not racism, but our poor understanding of the issue.

Salam Sister,

I apologize if you were insulted (that was not my intention). I actually had to re-read my post to try and determine how you got that out of it (but I'm still a little confused by your response, honestly). To clarify, I agree that racism is a problem in the Muslim world (and probably everywhere in the world), however, some of the problem is actual racism and some of it is interpretation.

It is not perceived racism when an Arab refers to you as a slave rather than by your name. Slaves are considered inferior, considering someone inferior on the basis of race is the very definition of racism.

I don't think it is the intention of the person who uses the term "Abid" is to insult or degrade. I agree that if the intention of the person is to label you as inferior (such as when the English term "slave" is used that is , no doubt, a clear insult) then the term should not be used at all. Many Arab's use the term "Abid" and "Aswad" interchangeably (similar to how the terms "negro" and "black" were used in the 1950's) without any knowledge of the difference (in connotation) between the terms. In the end, however, if the term is insulting or degrading (regardless) of the reason in the mind of the subject of the term then it should not be used. Since I am not black (or Arab), then maybe I am missing something.

Generally, slavery sucks for the slave. Being owned is not a nice thing.

Of course I am not defending slavery. It was a horrible scourge on the face of history and HAMDULLIAH it doesn't exist any longer (generally speaking). To the extent that Muslims and Muslim society reflect the teaching of the Prophet (a.s.) and the Ahly Al Bayt (a.s.), slavery was never seen as a positive or good thing (as it was in Western society until very recently) and certainly any inhumane treatment was never accepted or protected by law (as it was in the West). Of course, the corrupt rulers that have dominated the political culture of the societies that they "ruled over" throughout much of the history of Islam committed many horrible atrocities, however, this was distinct from the perception of slavery (and the proper treatment of slaves) among the masses.

Let's not sugar coat.

Again, that is not my intention.

Also black is still used all the time here in the U.S., and is not considered an insult by anyone really.

Actually I think that is a generalization. I work everyday (in the U.S.) with many black people and they have many different interpretations of this term (just as you have with "Abid"). Some of them prefer the term "African American", some prefer "black" and some have no opinion (they all agree, however, that "negro" is insulting and I would never use this term). I think people should be called what they want to be called, so if I am aware of someone's preference I will use that term in their presence. However, I do get confused and forget some times.

Racism was a major problem amongst the Arabs even during the time of our beloved Prophet (saawas) as many looked down on Bilal and Salman (ra) because they were foreigners. If racism were not an issue the Prophet (saawas) would not have had to address it as clearly as he did.

I disagree that the racism was a major problem (since most of them were Arab, with a few rare exception (such as the companions you mentioned). The problem was "tribalism" and "sexism", which is what the Quran (and hadith) primarily address. The issue of Ansar vs. Muhajir, Quraysh vs. Bani Hashim, Meccan vs. Medinan are not problems of racism and should not be addressed as such. Also the issue of discrimination against women (which was very prevalent in the jahiliyah and still is today) is also different then the problem of racism. The intention of my post was to draw attention to the unique issues that exist within Muslim socieity (in regards to racism) in contrast to the ones that exist in other societies (such as the West, which is "a whole different ballgame). Again, I'm sorry if my post was read as a justification for either racism (in any community or form) or slavery, this was not my intention at all.

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I have much empathy for the sister who started this thread.

I always tell people, do not judge Islam by the behavior of Muslims.

Now it is a sad state of affairs that I should have to give such an advisory warning.

A fine journalist who was forced into retirement early by the Orlando Sentinel due to his consistent defense of both Palestinians and the Ummah in general, Charley Reese, a European-American.

He said this:

Years ago, I read an article in which the author said that science had killed religion and that the problem of the 20th century would be to find something to replace it. I think that's true, and I think we still haven't found a substitute. What he was talking about was not ritual or dogma, but a culture permeated with religious values. That's what missing in America today, despite the lip service paid to religion.

A person's religion ought to be visible in even casual association, not because of anything he or she says, but because of how he or she acts. I know it will surprise many Americans, but there is a great deal less crime in Muslim countries. There may be political violence, but neighborhoods are generally safe because most Muslims haven't yet lost their faith.

I wandered about lost in a Cairo, Egypt, slum some years ago late at night, but no one bothered me. I wouldn't want to wander about in any American slum, even in daylight. Behavior is guided by a set of beliefs, even if they are adopted unconsciously. It matters a great deal what people believe.

So while it is so glaringly obvious to us when Christians do not live up to the teachings of Isa (A.S.) yet too many of the community are blind to the faults they, themselves, harbor.

What kind of testimony is it to people when hatred of races is part of a large segment of professed Muslims? What does that say to the world at large? Is some racism GOOD, while others BAD?

When some Lebanese immigrants, self-identifying as Muslims, in Australia, when raping on the beaches they would call their victims, "White sluts," or as in a case in England, Asian youths attacked white English pensioners whilst yelling, "Whites get out, this is a Muslim area!"

I read this article Shami: 'Whites don't want to work in factories'

With its blatant hostility towards European-Americans, this too the world notices and then draws conclusions.

How has it ever gotten to such a state?

How can our sister, Leda, be so disrespectfully treated in a masjid?

Where could people assume that this is alright?

How did this ever happen? How is it that people who swear submission to God feel so comfortable in expressing such derision towards their fellow members of the human race.

Surely no one learned that from the Qur'an.

A fellow Muslim is our brother, our sister. How dare we, as a community, permit hatred, even violence, against others merely because of their genetic codes.

It is good that the sister brought this topic up, it festers under the surface. It is not the exclusive problem of any one group. This is the sinful nature of man at work. Man does not want to SUBMIT to God, wants to be his own little deity. As with any other faith, people give lip service to their religion, few it is who actually live it.

If I may, I would close with a remarkable observation from a man who is surely considered evil by most.

Yet he makes a testimony that should surely give us all pause, do WE inspire such admiration from those who are not part of the Ummah? Do WE live in such a manner, conduct ourselves in such a manner, that inspires people to look to Islam?

May we all pray to our Creator for our community to LIVE what it preaches.

Leda, I will pray for you, it a tragedy to have to be exposed to such insensitivity and such parochial views.

Those men will miss out on meeting a good woman, pray for THEM, they need it.

David Duke, 2007

I can stand up and say to anyone that I am consistent, fair, and moral. That my position is decent and just.

All of us need to be able to say that.

All of us need to get the cobwebs of Jewish hypocrisy out of our skulls.

When I was in Iran, I noticed a few things. One, the people are very God fearing people. The sanctity of marriage is inviolate. No abortion, almost no drugs, no strip bars, no porn on TV or in the shops, not even any alcohol in the swankiest hotels. A society even more restrictive in some way than I would want for Europe where we can make the choice of whether we want a beer or glass of wine if we want.

While I was there I remarked to Mike Piper about the American evangelicals and how they have been instructed by anti-Christian Jews to hate immoral Iran, when the Islamic Republic has the very morals and laws they advocate but don't live. While the average Iranian girl is chaste until marriage, the average American daughter is have having casual oral sex when she is 15, and at least a full quarter have venereal disease by the time they can vote.

Give me a break.

I tell you something else for those who need to know.

I went to Bahrain a few years ago and spoke to crowds where at least half the audience was blacker than the average American Negro. I told them I was opposed to Israel but that I wanted to preserve my European heritage just as they wanted to preserve their Muslim heritage. They cheered.

Some more info for you.

Bahrain has no oil or natural gas to speak of, and as I said it is at least half African descent. But they have almost no crime, no rape, a decent school system, more democracy than we have, one elected representative for every 1000 Bahranians. It's one of the safest societies in the world.

I asked myself why. Then I realized. It is because of their Muslim Faith. Their religion strongly reinforces their morality. They are not told they can do any evil act and then get a miraculous death bed ticket to paradise. Their religion judges them by what they do in toto with their life, if they do evil they pay for it period.

Their sexual hormones are kept in check by complete separation of the sexes. After a very young age, girls are schooled with girls, boys with boys. Even the coffee houses are sexually segregated. There are few drugs and little alcohol to lower the moral guard of women or men. The women are covered, even at the beach.

Finally, they pray to Allah six times a day which reinforces their morality. I have always known that crime rates increase with certain racial groups, and I finally realized why Bahrain did not fit the pattern. It is because of the far more rigid religious system of Islam in the country. And by the way the family is incredibly intact in Bahrain, and illegitimacy is almost entirely from the guest workers they have from other nations.

All these things are factual, I talked with ministers in the country about all these issues and I saw the statistics, including from a British professor who helped compile the data for a book he was working on.

So, I would suggest that Islam seems suited for these people in their own nations, does not that afford a reason why it is so popular among them!

I believe a lot of the Muslim crime rate in Europe is attributable to the fact that they no longer live under a Muslim society, but a Hollywood, Jewish morality.

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