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The Green Knight

One Question For The Non-shia Muslims

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(bismillah)

I have here two verses from Surat Al-Nisaa', the fourth chapter of the holy Qur'an. The first one is as follows:

íóÇ ÃóíøõåóÇ ÇáøóÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇú ÃóØöíÚõæÇú Çááøåó æóÃóØöíÚõæÇú ÇáÑøóÓõæáó æóÃõæúáöí ÇáÃóãúÑö ãöäßõãú ÝóÅöä ÊóäóÇÒóÚúÊõãú Ýöí ÔóíúÁò ÝóÑõÏøõæåõ Åöáóì Çááøåö æóÇáÑøóÓõæáö Åöä ßõäÊõãú ÊõÄúãöäõæäó ÈöÇááøåö æóÇáúíóæúãö ÇáÂÎöÑö Ðóáößó ÎóíúÑñ æóÃóÍúÓóäõ ÊóÃúæöíáÇð {59}

[shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

Dear Muslim brothers, we all believe in the Quran and it is stressed in the Quran to contemplate it. It is a message from God for each and every individual. We all know that the Quran was revealed in its entirety and the revelations were completed during the life of the holy Prophet (pbuh). That said, my question is about this third party, referred to in Arabic as "Ool-ul-Amr" which has been roughly translated to entity in authority. You see I've been thinking and couldn't help but ask the following question: (please read it carefully)

Question: Since all the verses of the holy Quran were revealed during the life of the holy Prophet (pbuh), surely, this party referred to and identified as "Ool-il-Amr" (translation: those in authority) must also be present with the holy Prophet (pbuh) during his life and especially when this verse was revealed. If it is a single person, then who was he according to your research? Or if its a party then of what nature was it? Please describe them for the sake of knowledge and learning. Thanks in advance.

Now, a bit more clarification. I am sorry but I do not agree with the exegesis that "those in authority" means the future kings.This verse was revealed DURING the life of the holy Prophet (pbuh) and we must find the Ool-ul-Amr in that time. Someone authoritative enough and worthy enough for such a title that appears in the holy Quran written by Allah (swt). During the life of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), he himself was the king of Muslims and the executive authority among us, but the verse mentions a third entity anyway. Surely, this must be of great concern for all who consider all the words of Quran to hold true for all times, past, present and the future.

Here is the second verse, which is as much intriguing and a bit more explanative as the first one. It further indicates and illuminates the entity in question. Again from the same surah.

æóÅöÐóÇ ÌóÇÁåõãú ÃóãúÑñ ãøöäó ÇáÃóãúäö Ãóæö ÇáúÎóæúÝö ÃóÐóÇÚõæÇú Èöåö æóáóæú ÑóÏøõæåõ Åöáóì ÇáÑøóÓõæáö æóÅöáóì Ãõæúáöí ÇáÃóãúÑö ãöäúåõãú áóÚóáöãóåõ ÇáøóÐöíäó íóÓúÊóäÈöØõæäóåõ ãöäúåõãú æóáóæúáÇó ÝóÖúáõ Çááøåö Úóáóíúßõãú æóÑóÍúãóÊõåõ áÇóÊøóÈóÚúÊõãõ ÇáÔøóíúØóÇäó ÅöáÇøó ÞóáöíáÇð

{83}

[shakir 4:83] And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few.

Again, I am not interested in the exegesis that emphasizes on the authority of future kings. Remember, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the king of the Muslims when this verse was revealed and there also existed alongside him a certain authority that can be identified by their power of knowledge which is significant enough that God has written it down in the Quran. Who was this Ool-il-Amr then, that existed alongside the holy Prophet (pbuh), and had such significant power of knowledge over things?

Hint: Personally I can't help but be reminded of the hadith: Ana madinatual Ilme wa Aliyyun baabuha (I am the city of knowledge and Ali (as) is the gate of that city).

In case I am mistaken, please make haste in correcting me. I am eagerly awaiting your answers brothers.

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The apparent meaning of the verses is that one should follow their leaders. This applies even at the time of the Prophet (pbuh), for he has assigned leaders among the Muslims. In one hadith the Prophet (pbuh) states, "Who obeys me obeys Allah and who defies me defies Allah, and who obeys my Ameer (which I have appointed) obeys me, and who defies my Ameer defies me." This is the clear and apparent meaning from the verses. See the exegesis of Ibn Katheer for more on the subject, as he also gives a second definition which includes the scholars of Islam and expounds on the first definition.

Hint: Personally I can't help but be reminded of the hadith: Ana madinatual Ilme wa Aliyyun baabuha (I am the city of knowledge and Ali (as) is the gate of that city).

Ahlul Sunnah don't base their Qur'anic interpretations on fabricated hadiths. If you want to convince us that this hadith should be accepted then I await your asaneed. Good luck.

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^ Ah thanks for replying. So who was/were these "Ameers" who could "search out the knowledge" of all matters that people would have brought to them, and without this Ameer (or Ameers) and their knowledgable guidance people would have certainly followed the Shaitaan save a few? (Refer to the second verse) Please name them for us with historical references if possible. ^

P.S.: You can ignore that hadith and instead simply just answer my question comprehensively so I may correct my belief. I was looking for his/their names actually, with historical references, not confusing and vague explanations that actually lead to no specific historical personality according to your brief answer which avoided the actual information which was required. :)

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Ahlul Sunnah don't base their Qur'anic interpretations on fabricated hadiths. If you want to convince us that this hadith should be accepted then I await your asaneed. Good luck.

Yeah the hadith which says that Prophet said "If there would have been any prophet after me that would have been Umer" must be authentic before your so called scholars.

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^ Ah thanks for replying. So who was/were these "Ameers" who could "search out the knowledge" of all matters that people would have brought to them, and without this Ameer (or Ameers) and their knowledgable guidance people would have certainly followed the Shaitaan save a few? (Refer to the second verse) Please name them for us with historical references if possible. ^

Before we go into historical accounts, I'd like to point out that the word choice in the verse implies that it is a group of people and not a single person. Secondly, it seems as though the verse isn't talking about all matters but only matters of security and fear. The verse doesn't imply that they have access to all knowledge. Futhermore, the verse implies that not all these people will have access to an answer, for the verse says:

"...and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it..."

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Now that you finally have some understanding of the topic, I think we could safely delete or ignore all the previous frivolous offtopic posts and you can finally take the plunge into historical accounts and give those names while keeping the verses in mind? Lets hope so.

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(bismillah)

I have here two verses from Surat Al-Nisaa', the fourth chapter of the holy Qur'an. The first one is as follows:

íóÇ ÃóíøõåóÇ ÇáøóÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇú ÃóØöíÚõæÇú Çááøåó æóÃóØöíÚõæÇú ÇáÑøóÓõæáó æóÃõæúáöí ÇáÃóãúÑö ãöäßõãú ÝóÅöä ÊóäóÇÒóÚúÊõãú Ýöí ÔóíúÁò ÝóÑõÏøõæåõ Åöáóì Çááøåö æóÇáÑøóÓõæáö Åöä ßõäÊõãú ÊõÄúãöäõæäó ÈöÇááøåö æóÇáúíóæúãö ÇáÂÎöÑö Ðóáößó ÎóíúÑñ æóÃóÍúÓóäõ ÊóÃúæöíáÇð {59}

[shakir 4:59] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

Dear Muslim brothers, we all believe in the Quran and it is stressed in the Quran to contemplate it. It is a message from God for each and every individual. We all know that the Quran was revealed in its entirety and the revelations were completed during the life of the holy Prophet (pbuh). That said, my question is about this third party, referred to in Arabic as "Ool-ul-Amr" which has been roughly translated to entity in authority. You see I've been thinking and couldn't help but ask the following question: (please read it carefully)

Question: Since all the verses of the holy Quran were revealed during the life of the holy Prophet (pbuh), surely, this party referred to and identified as "Ool-il-Amr" (translation: those in authority) must also be present with the holy Prophet (pbuh) during his life and especially when this verse was revealed. If it is a single person, then who was he according to your research? Or if its a party then of what nature was it? Please describe them for the sake of knowledge and learning. Thanks in advance.

Now, a bit more clarification. I am sorry but I do not agree with the exegesis that "those in authority" means the future kings.This verse was revealed DURING the life of the holy Prophet (pbuh) and we must find the Ool-ul-Amr in that time. Someone authoritative enough and worthy enough for such a title that appears in the holy Quran written by Allah (swt). During the life of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), he himself was the king of Muslims and the executive authority among us, but the verse mentions a third entity anyway. Surely, this must be of great concern for all who consider all the words of Quran to hold true for all times, past, present and the future.

Here is the second verse, which is as much intriguing and a bit more explanative as the first one. It further indicates and illuminates the entity in question. Again from the same surah.

æóÅöÐóÇ ÌóÇÁåõãú ÃóãúÑñ ãøöäó ÇáÃóãúäö Ãóæö ÇáúÎóæúÝö ÃóÐóÇÚõæÇú Èöåö æóáóæú ÑóÏøõæåõ Åöáóì ÇáÑøóÓõæáö æóÅöáóì Ãõæúáöí ÇáÃóãúÑö ãöäúåõãú áóÚóáöãóåõ ÇáøóÐöíäó íóÓúÊóäÈöØõæäóåõ ãöäúåõãú æóáóæúáÇó ÝóÖúáõ Çááøåö Úóáóíúßõãú æóÑóÍúãóÊõåõ áÇóÊøóÈóÚúÊõãõ ÇáÔøóíúØóÇäó ÅöáÇøó ÞóáöíáÇð

{83}

[shakir 4:83] And when there comes to them news of security or fear they spread it abroad; and if they had referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those among them who can search out the knowledge of it would have known it, and were it not for the grace of Allah upon you and His mercy, you would have certainly followed the Shaitan save a few.

Again, I am not interested in the exegesis that emphasizes on the authority of future kings. Remember, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the king of the Muslims when this verse was revealed and there also existed alongside him a certain authority that can be identified by their power of knowledge which is significant enough that God has written it down in the Quran. Who was this Ool-il-Amr then, that existed alongside the holy Prophet (pbuh), and had such significant power of knowledge over things?

Hint: Personally I can't help but be reminded of the hadith: Ana madinatual Ilme wa Aliyyun baabuha (I am the city of knowledge and Ali (as) is the gate of that city).

In case I am mistaken, please make haste in correcting me. I am eagerly awaiting your answers brothers.

Excuse me slave of Ali I am the slave of Allah. Stop using the same verse again and again and dont even try using versus from surat Fatima

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Rowhana and abbas18 if you do not have any thing relevant to the topic or this thread keep you mouth shut and let the true debaters come forward and answer. Bringing one verse again and again??? Huh you must have recited Quran only once in your life thinking why to recite one thing again and again. We are not literalist like you. We do not think like you that Quran needs a dictionary for its explanation.

Mods are requested to remove the irrelevant posts from this thread including this mine one

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Rowhana and abbas18 if you do not have any thing relevant to the topic or this thread keep you mouth shut and let the true debaters come forward and answer.

Your first post in the thread:

Yeah the hadith which says that Prophet said "If there would have been any prophet after me that would have been Umer" must be authentic before your so called scholars.

=/

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^ Ah thanks for replying. So who was/were these "Ameers" who could "search out the knowledge" of all matters that people would have brought to them, and without this Ameer (or Ameers) and their knowledgable guidance people would have certainly followed the Shaitaan save a few? (Refer to the second verse) Please name them for us with historical references if possible. ^

P.S.: You can ignore that hadith and instead simply just answer my question comprehensively so I may correct my belief. I was looking for his/their names actually, with historical references, not confusing and vague explanations that actually lead to no specific historical personality according to your brief answer which avoided the actual information which was required. :)

Mr Nakhaee, clearly you dont know Quranic Ayah & you have somehow conjured up an idea that this must mean Imam Ali (as). For your information this ayah is GENERAL & you have restricted it to the time of the Prophet (SAW). Can you tell me how you have done this? Dont give me your understanding as your level of Arabic grammar is probably not even at basic level, so who's understanding have you taken this from?

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Mr Nakhaee, clearly you dont know Quranic Ayah & you have somehow conjured up an idea that this must mean Imam Ali (as). For your information this ayah is GENERAL & you have restricted it to the time of the Prophet (SAW). Can you tell me how you have done this? Dont give me your understanding as your level of Arabic grammar is probably not even at basic level, so who's understanding have you taken this from?

what makes you so certain it is general? my arabic is also 'not even at its basic level' could you please enlighten me?

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what makes you so certain it is general? my arabic is also 'not even at its basic level' could you please enlighten me?

Mohammed W, if you look to the Quran with open eyes rather than through tunnel vision you will see that the Quran has 2 types of Ayah: -

(1) Muhkamat ayat - Very clear and straightforward meanings

(2) Mutashabihat ayat - Multiple meanings

The ayah in mention is of Muhkamat extraction & when Allah (SWT) says "O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end" The wording then if you quarrel about anything, (fa in tanaza tum fi shay) here Allah (SWT) is telling us that disputes will arise (in the future) therefore it is a GENERAL ayah and gives guidance to resolve them. Also all the Mufassirs state it is general aswell & not tied to the timeline of Muhammed (SAW). Does that answer your question?

So can Mr Nakhaee tell us how he restricted the Ayah & made out that "those in authority from among you" was meant for Imam Ali (as). Also does he know the Asbab al Nuzul for this Ayah before he carries on with his irroneous claims?

JZ

Edited by AbuIthnayn

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(bismillah)

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you;

is this 1or 2 and why?

then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end"

the quaralling (you say) is general what does refer to Allah and his messenger mean?

Edited by Mohammed-W

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(bismillah)

is this 1or 2 and why?

I believe I have answered this!!!

the quaralling (you say) is general what does refer to Allah and his messenger mean?

Refer to Allah means look to the Quran to settle your quarelling & his messenger means look to the examples of the messenger (SAW) through his hadiths to settle your disputes.

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I believe I have answered this!!!

I dont believe you have since you have mentioned grammar and explained that

then if you quarrel about anything, (fa in tanaza tum fi shay) here Allah (SWT) is telling us that disputes will arise (in the future) therefore it is a GENERAL ayah and gives guidance to resolve them.

here you pay attention to future disputes to generalize the whole ayat.

now i have asked about the 'grammar' for ayat below paying particular attention to the outlined part

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you;
Refer to Allah means look to the Quran to settle your quarelling & his messenger means look to the examples of the messenger (SAW) through his hadiths to settle your disputes.

what then of the hadeeth (such as) ghadir Al khum? would that mean referring it to Ali sa after the prophets demise? since He SAW said that he has been ordered to convey the message in that speech and He SAW said in that speech that whomsoever he is the Mawla Ali sa is their mawla etc. or is this general and there is a more specific hadeeth for who to refer to?

Edited by Mohammed-W

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\

Refer to Allah means look to the Quran to settle your quarelling & his messenger means look to the examples of the messenger (SAW) through his hadiths to settle your disputes.

Yes exactly when you have dispute that who was the real successor of Prophet (pbuh) refer your dispute to Allah and Prophet (pbuh). When you see that it turned to Quran 5:67 and Ghadeer declaration immediately run away from this :blush:

Edited by Aabiss_Shakari

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I dont believe you have since you have mentioned grammar and explained that

here you pay attention to future disputes to generalize the whole ayat.

OK lets say it is a specific ayat for that day, this means that you (Muslims) must obey Allah (SWT) & his Messenger (SAW) & the authority among you (Imam Ali) OK, now Imam Ali isnt among us, so who do you obey? Because according to you the ayah is not general & specific to the timeframe of (SAW)

now i have asked about the 'grammar' for ayat below paying particular attention to the outlined part O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you;

For this Ayah this would mean the Imams for the Shia, but we have no Imams alive today whom you could ask guidance from, so it would mean your Ayatollah's. For the Sunni, it would mean the Rulers (who are just) & the Ulema of the Sunni world.

what then of the hadeeth (such as) ghadir Al khum? would that mean referring it to Ali sa after the prophets demise? since He SAW said that he has been ordered to convey the message in that speech and He SAW said in that speech that whomsoever he is the Mawla Ali sa is their mawla etc. or is this general and there is a more specific hadeeth for who to refer to?

Why are you specifically referring to Ghadir Al Khum?, Allah (SWT) doesnt say do this so why are you? Yes it is a hadith, but at the time of Muhammed (SAW) the authority lied in the hands of Muhammed (SAW) not anyone else. Also you need to look into the Asbab al Nuzul (circumstance for its revelation) for this Ayah, the Sunni's say this Ayah was revealed because of the Prophet (SAW) sent an army detachment & appointed Abdullah bin Hudafa bin Qais bin 'Adi at its head & he (SAW) commanded the people to follow Abdullah. So can you tell me how you have linked the Imams to the Ayah?

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OK lets say it is a specific ayat for that day, this means that you (Muslims) must obey Allah (SWT) & his Messenger (SAW) & the authority among you (Imam Ali) OK, now Imam Ali isnt among us, so who do you obey? Because according to you the ayah is not general & specific to the timeframe of (SAW)

you follow the Prophet SAW now so i don't understand your questioning? you would follow Ali (SA) in the same way since he lived through a lot of fitna which the Prophet Mohammed SAW was not alive to give example.

you talked about rudimentary Arabic so i asked if it was specific / then it is still specific as we have his (SA) example and Prophets (SAW) example.

For this Ayah this would mean the Imams for the Shia, but we have no Imams alive today whom you could ask guidance from, so it would mean your Ayatollah's. For the Sunni, it would mean the Rulers (who are just) & the Ulema of the Sunni world.

In the absence of 'imams' we will still be raised with one (there are 'imams' leading to the fire).... so why not start with allegiance to ALI (SA)? the alternative is none that means you die a munafiq and jahil. This is not an option is it?

(bismillah)

(2) One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.

( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #71)

(5) And We made them imams who call to the fire, and on the day of resurrection they shall not be assisted.

( سورة القصص , Al-Qasas, Chapter #28, Verse #41)

Why are you specifically referring to Ghadir Al Khum?, Allah (SWT) doesnt say do this so why are you? Yes it is a hadith, but at the time of Muhammed (SAW) the authority lied in the hands of Muhammed (SAW) not anyone else. Also you need to look into the Asbab al Nuzul (circumstance for its revelation) for this Ayah, the Sunni's say this Ayah was revealed because of the Prophet (SAW) sent an army detachment & appointed Abdullah bin Hudafa bin Qais bin 'Adi at its head & he (SAW) commanded the people to follow Abdullah. So can you tell me how you have linked the Imams to the Ayah?

What does Allah say to do? you mentioned referring to hadeeth for dispute so i did... i never said it was linked to this ayah below but several sources have (now you mention it)

(bismillah)

O Messenger. proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.

Edited by Mohammed-W

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you follow the Prophet SAW now so i don't understand your questioning? you would follow Ali (SA) in the same way since he lived through a lot of fitna which the Prophet Mohammed SAW was not alive to give example. You talked about rudimentary Arabic so i asked if it was specific / then it is still specific as we have his (SA) example and Prophets (SAW) example.

We follow the Prophet (SAW) as HE was given the wahy & NOT Imam Ali (as) is that difficult to grasp? & Allah (SWT) mentions that he (SAW) is the best example to follow & no-one else.

In the absence of 'imams' we will still be raised with one (there are 'imams' leading to the fire).... so why not start with allegiance to ALI (SA)? the alternative is none that means you die a munafiq and jahil. This is not an option is it?

One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.

( ÓæÑÉ ÇáÅÓÑÇÁ , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #71)

Do you actually know whom Allah is referring to here? Its NOT the 12 Imams its the Prophets & Messengers, how have you linked this with the Imams? You've just picked up an English translation without looking into it properly & justified your stance just because that particular translation mentions Imams!!

What does Allah say to do? you mentioned referring to hadeeth for dispute so i did... i never said it was linked to this ayah below but several sources have (now you mention it)

Why are you putting your own understanding on Ayah of Quran when you mentioned yourself that your understanding is rudimentary?

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We follow the Prophet (SAW) as HE was given the wahy & NOT Imam Ali (as) is that difficult to grasp? & Allah (SWT) mentions that he (SAW) is the best example to follow & no-one else.

who said he was given wahy? (revelation) you are seeing things :unsure:

Do you actually know whom Allah is referring to here? Its NOT the 12 Imams its the Prophets & Messengers, how have you linked this with the Imams? You've just picked up an English translation without looking into it properly & justified your stance just because that particular translation mentions Imams!!

did i say 12 imams? again you are seeing things :unsure:

Why are you putting your own understanding on Ayah of Quran when you mentioned yourself that your understanding is rudimentary?

you have to be joking i never mentioned the Quran with ghadeer al khum HADEETH someone else did......and i posted them (verses) since YOU mentioned verses which i never posted in the first place..somebody else did!

---------------> I ONLY MENTIONED HADEETH... do you remember? you can scroll up and check! (post 19) I POSTED THEM (verses of quran) AFTER YOU BROUGHT IT UP AND SAID MANY SOURCES SAY IT IS TO DO WITH THIS HADEETH.<--------

YOU HAVE NOT BOTHERED TO ASK THE SOURCES (WHICH ARE NUMEROUS AND SUNNI) THAT CLAIM THIS IS IN REFERENCE TO GHADIR AL KHUM.

your akhlaq is bare/basic and your reading comprehension is definitely rudimentary.

what are you talking about you have not understood anything i posted! I dont expect you to apologize and i dont want to argue with the dead.

PEACE

Edited by Mohammed-W

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who said he was given wahy? (revelation) you are seeing things :unsure:

I didnt mention any names, so why make the assumption that this was directed towards you?

Did i say 12 imams? again you are seeing things :unsure:

No you didnt, but you clearly meant it, by highlighting Imams in the ayah, can you tell me what is your understanding (not your personal understanding but of a mufassir) of the ayah

You have to be joking i never mentioned the Quran with ghadeer al khum HADEETH someone else did......and i posted them (verses) since YOU mentioned verses which i never posted in the first place..somebody else did!

---------------> I ONLY MENTIONED HADEETH... do you remember? you can scroll up and check! (post 19) I POSTED THEM (verses of quran) AFTER YOU BROUGHT IT UP AND SAID MANY SOURCES SAY IT IS TO DO WITH THIS HADEETH.<--------

YOU HAVE NOT BOTHERED TO ASK THE SOURCES (WHICH ARE NUMEROUS AND SUNNI) THAT CLAIM THIS IS IN REFERENCE TO GHADIR AL KHUM.

your akhlaq is bare/basic and your reading comprehension is definitely rudimentary.

Whats the point in asking for hadith, when your not even going to entertain those hadith? You will simply dismiss them as forgeries or lies. You've already made up your mind that "& those in authority amongst you" means Imam Ali (as). As for your seconds points, well im laughing off my seat!

What are you talking about you have not understood anything i posted! I dont expect you to apologize and i dont want to argue with the dead.

PEACE

Apologise for what I dont believe I have done anything wrong which warrants an apology?

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Abu Ithnain, you tell me that we have a tunnel vision but it is you, my dear friend, who is using a bird's eye view. Why? Because you very conveniently ignored and did not comment one word on the second ayah I posted. Also I feel that unfortunately you have a weak grasp over english comprehension too.

Please read my first post again.

Why can't any of you be comprehensive and decisive in refuting this and need all sorts of dishonest crutches to run away or derail the topic? If it's not a sign of your defeat and if you cannot see it then rest assured that those who do not have locks over their hearts can still see it. Your vain criticism without any scholarly points exposes the sad state you are in. May Allah help us and guide us all.

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Salaam my brothers and sisters in Islam,

There are many verses in the Holy Qur'an which command us to obey the Prophet " O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Apostle" 2/13 ( you can also see 4/69; 24/52; 33/71, 48/18). In the same surah "Whoever obeys the Apostle, he indeed obeys Allah." 4/80 In two of the verses that were stated as well as numerous other verses, it shows that the obedience of Allah is sysnonmous with the obedience of the Prophet. Such assertions would be impossible if the Prophet was not ma'soom (infallible).

".... and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one..." 76/26 The picture has now been completed, the Prophet is to be obeyed and the sinners are not to be obeyed.

Jabir Ibn Abdillah Al-Ansari said to the Holy Prophet (saw) “We know Allah and the Prophet, but who are those vested with authority whose obedience has been conjoined to that of Allah and the Prophet?”

The Holy Prophet said “They are my caliphs and the Imams of the Muslim after me. The first of them is Ali, then Hasan, then Hussein, then Ali, son of Hussein, then Muhammad son of Ali, who has been mentioned as Al-Baqir in the Torah (Old Testament). O Jabir! You will meet him. When you see him, convey my greetings to him. He will be succeeded by his son Ja’far Al-Sadiq (The Truthful), then Moosa son of Ja’far, then Ali son of Moosa, then Muhammad son of Ali, then Ali son of Muhammad, then Hassan son of Ali. He will be followed by his son whose name and patronym will be the same as mine. He will be Hujjat(Proof) of Allah on the earth, and Baqiyyatullah(the one spared by Allah to maintain the cause of faith) among mankind. He will conquer the whole world from east to west. So long will he remain hideen from the eyes of his followers that the belief in his Imamate will remain only in those hearts which have been tested by Allah for faith”

Jabir said, “O Messanger of Allah! Will his followers benefit from his seclusion?”.

The Holy Prophet (saw) said, “Yes. By Him Who sent me with prophethood, they will be guided by his light, and benefit from his Wilayeh during his seclusion, just as people benefit from the sun even when it is hidden behind the clouds. O Jabir! This is from the hidden secrets of Allah and treasured Knowledge of Him. So guard it except from the people who deserve to know”. Al-Khazzaz: Kifayetul Aathar p. 53

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Assalam o Allaikum,

Very nice topic. i wish i should join you. i simply describe the meanings of OOLILAMR for those who think that our knowledge of Arabic language is weeker than them. The word OOLILAMR contains two arabic words i.e. OOLA & AMR. OOLA meanins someone or something Greater or has authority on the word coming after i.e. AMR. And AMR means the orders of Allah as Allah himself called in Quraan regarding the soul (ROOH) that ªÐÇ ÑæÍ ãä ÇãÑ ÑÈی that the soul is one of the AMRs of Allah. Now according to the meanings of the word OOLILAMR should have the authorities upon some of the AMRs of Allah (not all). Now could someone explain that who was the OOLILAMR and who is the OOLILAMR. As Allah says that this book (QURAN) is the last and complete life style for muslims till the day of judgement then there should be an OOLILAMR in today's era too.

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Abu Ithnain, you tell me that we have a tunnel vision but it is you, my dear friend, who is using a bird's eye view. Why? Because you very conveniently ignored and did not comment one word on the second ayah I posted. Also I feel that unfortunately you have a weak grasp over english comprehension too.

Mr Nakahee, i find it amazing that you link the verse with Imam Ali (as) without even looking at the circumstances toward the revelation & are quick to jump & say it MUST mean Imam Ali (as) without any iota of proof. You have made the claim that it means Imam Ali (as) not I, so the burden is upon you, not me ,to provide the evidence!

Why can't any of you be comprehensive and decisive in refuting this and need all sorts of dishonest crutches to run away or derail the topic? If it's not a sign of your defeat and if you cannot see it then rest assured that those who do not have locks over their hearts can still see it. Your vain criticism without any scholarly points exposes the sad state you are in. May Allah help us and guide us all.

Can you provide me with the Asab Al Nuzul for this ayah before you make more fanciful claims? I havent needed to add any scholarly claims as I am not making the insuiations, you are, so again provide the proof of Asbab Al Nuzul & the "Scholary" discourse that goes with it i.e. tafsir

Edited by AbuIthnayn

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Brother now you have just contradicted yourself. First you claimed that it is a "general order" sort of verse. Now you want "asbab al nuzul" for it as if it was not a general but a situational verse? :)

Just read the two verses yourself and use the God gifted common sense only. Allah (swt) has clearly defined and empowered the "ool al-amr" in those two verses. Perhaps you should read my first post again. It does not need scholarly exegesis. Quran is for everyone, not just scholars. And if you wanted supporting proof then you have the hadith posted by brother right.path.

Anyway, since you request it brother, here is tafsir:

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 4:59]

"Obey Allah and obey the messenger and the ulil amr (those vested with authority through His messenger)."

The command to obey is infinite-total obedience in all material, religious and spiritual matters, therefore, as this verse clearly signifies, the ulil amr must also be as just, wise and merciful as Allah and the Holy Prophet are, and he who - administers the affairs of mankind should be the khalifatullah (vicegerent of Allah) and the waliallah (representative of Allah whom He chooses after equipping him with His wisdom). Please refer to the commentary of al-Baqarah: 30 to 39 and 124; and al-Ma-idah: 55 and 56 and 3 and 67 with reference to the event at Ghadir Khum; and al-Rad: 43; and al-Hud: 17. A careful study of the above references discloses that Ali, and after him, the remaining eleven Imams, in the progeny of the Holy Prophet, Ali and Fatimah, are the true successors of the Holy Prophet who have been referred to as ulil amr in this verse. So the Shias obey and follow the Holy Prophet and the twelve Imams.

It is irrational and senseless to accept any ruler as ulil amr, otherwise men like Yazid bin Mu-awiya will have to be included in the category of ulil amr; and no sane person would say that Allah has enjoined to obey men like Yazid (prototypes of whom were and are many and in abundance since the departure of the Holy Prophet till today) just as one obeys Allah and the Holy Prophet.

From the event of ashira (feast of the near relatives to carry out the divine command of "warn your tribe of near relatives") to the day at Ghadir Khum, the Holy Prophet repeatedly announced the successorship of Ali, therefore, the first step a true Muslim must take to obey the messenger of Allah is to obey and follow Ali ibn abi Talib. Also refer to the "Right Path" and "Peshawar Nights", published by the Peermohammed Ebrahim Trust or Zahra Publications, because the issue of ulil amr and wali has been discussed in depth in these books with authentic references from the well-known books of tafsir (exegesis) and hadith (traditions) written by the Muslim scholars.

Today the Muslim ummah (from Indonesia to Morocco) is in a quandary, because the theoreticians who directly or indirectly served the interests of the despotic rulers, have presented "the obedience to ruler" (even if he is an usurper, a rogue or a ruffian) as a fundamental of religion (known as the theory of ghlu and ghalba-violence and conquest) by misinterpreting this verse. Such theoreticians are their Imams. There is no way leading to emancipation from terror and exploitation if this theory is not rightly rejected once and for all. It is not possible unless the sincere Muslims submit to the teachings of the Ahl ul Bayt.

And this is for the second verse:

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 4:83]

In this verse Allah again invites people to refer to the Holy Prophet and his Ahl ul Bayt (ulil azm-see the commentary of verse 59 of this surah) all their affairs and problems because they alone know the truth and are authorised to guide; and if they do not, surely they will go astray in the direction of Shaytan.

And had there not been Allah's grace (fadl) and mercy (rahmat) present among the Muslims, they would also have lived in total darkness of infidelity. Fadl and rahmat stand for the Holy Prophet and Ali ibn abi Talib. In the "feast of the near relatives" when the Holy Prophet had said that he had been commanded by Allah to call them to His worship, therefore, who would, among them, testify to his prophethood and join him to support his mission and be his brother, lieutenant, and successor, it was Ali who stood up and offered his services unconditionally. Then the Holy Prophet said, "Verily Ali is my brother and my successor. From this day it has been made obligatory upon everyone to obey the authority of Ali." (Ibn Jarir Tabari, Ahmed ibn Hanbal in his Musnad, Hakim in Mustadrak). So, from the "feast of the near relatives" to 11 Hijra Ali stood by the Holy Prophet and supported him in his divine mission. In 11 Hijra the Holy Prophet declared at Ghadir Khum that of whomsoever he was the lord-master Ali was his lord-master (see commentary of al-Maidah: 67).

Ibn Hajar Makki writes in Sawa-iq Muhiraqa that Fadl in verse 54 of al-Nisa refers to the Ahl ul Bayt, and Tabari in Majma ul Bayan confirms it.

Please refer to the commentary of al-Hud: 17 to know the authentic references which say that shahidun and imaman wa rahmatan (witness, guide and mercy) was Imam Ali ibn abi Talib. Also refer to the well-known books of history which clearly mention the decisive role Ali played in the battles of Badr, Uhad, Khandaq, Khaybar and many other wars, to confirm that it was Ali who had saved the Muslim ummah from total destruction. The Holy Prophet showed the right path and Ali guarded it.

Ali has been described as the "total faith" by the Holy Prophet in the battle of Khandaq; and after his decisive victory over Amr bin Abduwad which created terror in the hearts of a very large army of 12000 soldiers (refer to the commentary of al-Baqarah: 214 and 251) who en masse took to flight, the Holy Prophet declared that "one strike of Ali, on the day of Khandaq, is superior to all worship of both the worlds," because if this one strike were not dealt there would have been no Muslims on the face of the earth.

Source: http://www.al-islam.org/quran

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Brother now you have just contradicted yourself. First you claimed that it is a "general order" sort of verse. Now you want "asbab al nuzul" for it as if it was not a general but a situational verse? :)

Do you understanding what you are saying Ibrahim? A verse which has an asbab is only a situational verse? Where do you get that from?

Just read the two verses yourself and use the God gifted common sense only. Allah (swt) has clearly defined and empowered the "ool al-amr" in those two verses. Perhaps you should read my first post again. It does not need scholarly exegesis. Quran is for everyone, not just scholars. And if you wanted supporting proof then you have the hadith posted by brother right.path.

This is where the problem lies, we cannot use our God gifted common sense, as it is subjective to the person who is reading it! Something which makes sense to me might not for you & vice versa, so we cant interpret verses using our own logic & must refer to the Ulema/Ayatollah's. They are the ones who can interpret verses & use evidences from Sahaba (ra) or the Ahlul Bayt (as)

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And...?

Thank you too for ignoring and turning a blind eye to the evidence while beating around the bush. Sadly, I'll not play along when all the dishonest people have to do in face of truth is to derail the thread and take the discussion offtopic instead of presenting comprehesive scholarly arguments in response.

Next? B)

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And who was the Ulul Amr of the Time ...? IMAM ALI (as) and they did NOT OBEY HIM .......

QUESTION - And who is the Ulul Amr of the PRESENT TIME.....? Imam Akhiri Zaman & we CANNOT FIND HIM!!!! :lol:

Rather we are forced to obey some Ayatullah sitting in Qom who by your own admissions are not infallible - hence we are in the same boat being led by dictators who sin.

Well i guess we have to be patient for a few more hundred years until Iran can enrich Uranium to 150% to ensure the safety of the Imam Akhiri Zaman.

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QUESTION - And who is the Ulul Amr of the PRESENT TIME.....? Imam Akhiri Zaman & we CANNOT FIND HIM!!!! :lol:

Rather we are forced to obey some Ayatullah sitting in Qom who by your own admissions are not infallible - hence we are in the same boat being led by dictators who sin.

Well i guess we have to be patient for a few more hundred years until Iran can enrich Uranium to 150% to ensure the safety of the Imam Akhiri Zaman.

(bismillah)

You should be banned for mocking religious authority.

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