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In the Name of God بسم الله

Wife Not A Revert

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AlQadr

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I reverted to Islam four years ago. My wife has not. She comes from a culture not much reached by the religions of the Book. And she grew up under a regime that practiced a very harsh form of Communism. She insists Islam is "right for" me, not her. (It does not seem to help to point out that "right for" is a contradiction. An idea is either right or it is not.) Yet she fears death to an unhealthy degree---the sort of fear only the secularist knows. Any suggestions? This bothers me more and more.

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(salam)

My experience with folks who lived under communist rule have not been very encouraging. Some of them don't really understand the whole concept of religion and worship to god. The one we spoke to, think stories about Prophets are fairy tale. They don't think religion is important or serves any purpose. It is very difficult to have any form of debate with them because their knowledge about religion is almost nil.

I don't have many good ideas. I always felt that people under communist rule are enslaved by man made ideas. I think we have Islam so we do not have to be slave to human ideas.

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Any suggestions? This bothers me more and more.

Purely as a layperson, I'd imagine that there are two aspects to religion. There's the believing in fairy stories and then there's what you *do* bit.

How about starting with the latter?

So as a Shia Muslim you may believe in things regarding modesty/dress, abstinence from certain behaviours etc. Even if she does not convert in the short term, would it not be possible to ask if she's willing to make these changes? Because you feel more comfortable with them.

We're not talking hijab, but you could argue that longer skirts for example are more respectable, purely on secular grounds. There are lots of things here, and you could work towards gradual change. Once she accepts the logic behind the behaviour change and sees the benefits (drunkeness becomes far more offensive a sight when you do not drink yourself), you may find that the faith becomes more attractive.

HTH

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I reverted to Islam four years ago. My wife has not. She comes from a culture not much reached by the religions of the Book. And she grew up under a regime that practiced a very harsh form of Communism. She insists Islam is "right for" me, not her. (It does not seem to help to point out that "right for" is a contradiction. An idea is either right or it is not.) Yet she fears death to an unhealthy degree---the sort of fear only the secularist knows. Any suggestions? This bothers me more and more.

(bismillah) (salam)

...dieth in his Disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein.

(  ÓæÑÉ ÇáÈÞÑÉ  , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #217)

 Lo! those who disbelieve, and die in Disbelief, the (whole) earth full of gold would not be accepted from such an one if it were offered as a ransom (for his soul). Theirs will be a painful doom and they will have no helpers.  

(  ÓæÑÉ Âá ÚãÑÇä  , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #91)

 Let not their conduct grieve thee, who run easily to Disbelief, for lo! they injure Allah not at all. It is Allah's Will to assign them no portion in the Hereafter, and theirs will be an awful doom.  

(  ÓæÑÉ Âá ÚãÑÇä  , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #176)

 Those who purchase Disbelief at the price of faith harm Allah not at all, but theirs will be a painful doom.  

(  ÓæÑÉ Âá ÚãÑÇä  , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #177)

 What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to Disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O MUhammad) canst not find a road.  

(  ÓæÑÉ ÇáäÓÇÁ  , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #88)

when you have yourself clear in your beliefs and she has made herself clear in her beliefs, it's one or the other.

(salam)

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Purely as a layperson, I'd imagine that there are two aspects to religion. There's the believing in fairy stories and then there's what you *do* bit.

How about starting with the latter?

So as a Shia Muslim you may believe in things regarding modesty/dress, abstinence from certain behaviours etc. Even if she does not convert in the short term, would it not be possible to ask if she's willing to make these changes? Because you feel more comfortable with them.

We're not talking hijab, but you could argue that longer skirts for example are more respectable, purely on secular grounds. There are lots of things here, and you could work towards gradual change. Once she accepts the logic behind the behaviour change and sees the benefits (drunkeness becomes far more offensive a sight when you do not drink yourself), you may find that the faith becomes more attractive.

HTH

(bismillah) (salam)

...dieth in his Disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein.

(  ÓæÑÉ ÇáÈÞÑÉ  , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #217)

 Lo! those who disbelieve, and die in Disbelief, the (whole) earth full of gold would not be accepted from such an one if it were offered as a ransom (for his soul). Theirs will be a painful doom and they will have no helpers.  

(  ÓæÑÉ Âá ÚãÑÇä  , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #91)

 Let not their conduct grieve thee, who run easily to Disbelief, for lo! they injure Allah not at all. It is Allah's Will to assign them no portion in the Hereafter, and theirs will be an awful doom.  

(  ÓæÑÉ Âá ÚãÑÇä  , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #176)

 Those who purchase Disbelief at the price of faith harm Allah not at all, but theirs will be a painful doom.  

(  ÓæÑÉ Âá ÚãÑÇä  , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #177)

 What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to Disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O MUhammad) canst not find a road.  

(  ÓæÑÉ ÇáäÓÇÁ  , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #88)

when you have yourself clear in your beliefs and she has made herself clear in her beliefs, it's one or the other.

(salam)

Thanks for a direct answer. I appreciate frankness. I think in my wife's case, the work for me is to try to get her to see that some beliefs are necessary. China, in these decades post-Deng Xiao Ping, is drunk on material "progress." Rather like America in the 50's and 60's. It is difficult to bring people to see through that lie. But I will set to work with renewed vigor.

Does she have any religion, even nominally? And if so, which? And do you have any children together?

Does she have any religion, even nominally? And if so, which? And do you have any children together?

No children. We married in our mid-forties. Her religion is lukewarm Marxism (yes, that creed counts as a religion, albeit an abased one.) That and Chinese Taoist notions, sort of a cultural hangover the same way as unchurched Americans are "Christian."

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Salam,

As a revert like you, I have had many opportunities to discuss my faith with people from different backgrounds. In my experience, the particular cultural or social background matters much less then the attitude of the individual themselves toward these subjects. To describe your wife as a "lukewarm Marxist with a Taoist hangover" is more an effort by you to simplify and condense your wife's complexities into a particular narrative then an accurate description of her (I suspect). It's important when having a dialog with someone to listen to them and recognize their individuality rather then overlaying a narrative that reinforces you opinions.

If your wife truly believes what Marxism teaches "i.e., that all religions are man made and created by the bourgeois to control and oppress "the people" then she may benefit from a more careful examination of her core beliefs. You should encourage her to study different idea's about God and religion (in general), and she will find some things that support this notion, and some that contradict it. I think she will find this study worth her time, as even if she ultimately doesn't abandon her belief then she will at least understand her own idea's in more depth. It's possible that as she studies other religions she will find that they weaken her own irrational prejudice against them, and that one religion in particular stands out as being the most beneficial to it's followers and least like the capitalist weapon that she was taught that all religions were. She may also find that one particular religion more then others teaches about the true nature of human beings, the purpose of life, and the importance of being moderate and balanced in all things (and the same idea is in Taoism as well).

Of course it's also possible that she has no interest in studying any religion or more carefully examining her own core beliefs. If this is the case then there is not much you can do (unfortunately) except continue to encourage her and be a good example (in your own behavior) of what Islam teaches.

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I reverted to Islam four years ago. My wife has not. She comes from a culture not much reached by the religions of the Book. And she grew up under a regime that practiced a very harsh form of Communism. She insists Islam is "right for" me, not her. (It does not seem to help to point out that "right for" is a contradiction. An idea is either right or it is not.) Yet she fears death to an unhealthy degree---the sort of fear only the secularist knows. Any suggestions? This bothers me more and more.

Pray to God that He removes the disease which is in your wife's heart : unbelief and fear of death. Nobody except herself and God can remove this terrible disease.

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Thanks for a direct answer. I appreciate frankness. I think in my wife's case, the work for me is to try to get her to see that some beliefs are necessary. China, in these decades post-Deng Xiao Ping, is drunk on material "progress." Rather like America in the 50's and 60's. It is difficult to bring people to see through that lie. But I will set to work with renewed vigor.

(bismillah) (salam)

(1) Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment. 

(  ÓæÑÉ ÇáÈÞÑÉ  , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #7)

(Arabic, Transliteration, Urdu, Yusuf Ali, ShakiPr, Picthal, Mohsin Khan, French, Spanish, Indonesian, Melayu, German, Bosnian, Russian)

(2) In their hearts is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allah has increased their disease. A painful torment is theirs because they used to tell lies. 

(  ÓæÑÉ ÇáÈÞÑÉ  , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #10)

(Arabic, Transliteration, Urdu, Yusuf Ali, Shakir, Picthal, Mohsin Khan, French, Spanish, Indonesian, Melayu, German, Bosnian, Russian)

(4) And they say, "Our hearts are wrapped (i.e. do not hear or understand Allah's Word)." Nay, Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so little is that which they believe. 

(  ÓæÑÉ ÇáÈÞÑÉ  , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #88)

(Arabic, Transliteration, Urdu, Yusuf Ali, Shakir, Picthal, Mohsin Khan, French, Spanish, Indonesian, Melayu, German, Bosnian, Russian)

(2) O Messenger (Muhammad Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã)! Let not those who hurry to fall into disbelief grieve you, of such who say: "We believe" with their mouths but their hearts have no faith. And of the Jews are men who listen much and eagerly to lies - listen to others who have not come to you. They change the words from their places; they say, "If you are given this, take it, but if you are not given this, then beware!" And whomsoever Allah wants to put in Al-Fitnah [error, because of his rejecting of Faith], you can do nothing for him against Allah. Those are the ones whose hearts Allah does not want to purify (from disbelief and hypocrisy); for them there is a disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a great torment. 

(  ÓæÑÉ ÇáãÇÆÏÉ  , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #41)

(Arabic, Transliteration, Urdu, Yusuf Ali, Shakir, Picthal, Mohsin Khan, French, Spanish, Indonesian, Melayu, German, Bosnian, Russian)

your welcome brother, all praise is due to Allah, only Allah can change the hearts of men and no amount of words, evidence, explantion, could guide someone who Allah has set astray likewise, no one can change the hearts of men who are guided and no amount of words, evidence, explantion, could misguide them.

(salam)

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Thanks for a direct answer. I appreciate frankness. I think in my wife's case, the work for me is to try to get her to see that some beliefs are necessary. China, in these decades post-Deng Xiao Ping, is drunk on material "progress." Rather like America in the 50's and 60's. It is difficult to bring people to see through that lie. But I will set to work with renewed vigor.

No children. We married in our mid-forties. Her religion is lukewarm Marxism (yes, that creed counts as a religion, albeit an abased one.) That and Chinese Taoist notions, sort of a cultural hangover the same way as unchurched Americans are "Christian."

Salaam

Sorry to hear you are having problems.

In general, I think it's difficult for a person that age to change. People usually have one of three beliefs about God: yes, no, or maybe. If she's in the 'maybe' category (even 'probably not... but maybe') there might be some possibility. You might also try to get her to see some of the negative effects this material progress is having on China (like destroying the environment, huge social inequities, breakdown of culture, etc)

If she feels linked to Taoist belief at all, you might try sharing some of Sachiko Murata's writings in which she compares Islam and Taoism, such as The Tao of Islam. (That one's rather difficult to read; there are some articles online which might be easier; you could google Sachiko Murata) You might focus on the spiritual aspect of the human being and her beliefs in that as well as regarding the goal of life.

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Salam,

As a revert like you, I have had many opportunities to discuss my faith with people from different backgrounds. In my experience, the particular cultural or social background matters much less then the attitude of the individual themselves toward these subjects. To describe your wife as a "lukewarm Marxist with a Taoist hangover" is more an effort by you to simplify and condense your wife's complexities into a particular narrative then an accurate description of her (I suspect). It's important when having a dialog with someone to listen to them and recognize their individuality rather then overlaying a narrative that reinforces you opinions.

If your wife truly believes what Marxism teaches "i.e., that all religions are man made and created by the bourgeois to control and oppress "the people" then she may benefit from a more careful examination of her core beliefs. You should encourage her to study different idea's about God and religion (in general), and she will find some things that support this notion, and some that contradict it. I think she will find this study worth her time, as even if she ultimately doesn't abandon her belief then she will at least understand her own idea's in more depth. It's possible that as she studies other religions she will find that they weaken her own irrational prejudice against them, and that one religion in particular stands out as being the most beneficial to it's followers and least like the capitalist weapon that she was taught that all religions were. She may also find that one particular religion more then others teaches about the true nature of human beings, the purpose of life, and the importance of being moderate and balanced in all things (and the same idea is in Taoism as well).

Of course it's also possible that she has no interest in studying any religion or more carefully examining her own core beliefs. If this is the case then there is not much you can do (unfortunately) except continue to encourage her and be a good example (in your own behavior) of what Islam teaches.

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Thank you for your careful reply. My remark about Taoism and Marxism was not meant as punditry. The ideological side of Marxism simply did not penetrate that deeply here. Taoist and Confucist habits of thinking exist cheek by jowl with Marxism (and now---Allah save us---Milton Friedmann.) In my wife's case, the problem is not helped by the fact that the only Chinese translations of the Quran available are those dating back to the Song Dynasty. The language is very archaic and the meaning often opaque. (This lets the regime have its cake and eat it too. Religion is "free." But the available texts are a barrier to understanding.) I'm thinking of translating at least the shorter Surahs into modern Chinese as a help to her.

Salaam

Sorry to hear you are having problems.

In general, I think it's difficult for a person that age to change. People usually have one of three beliefs about God: yes, no, or maybe. If she's in the 'maybe' category (even 'probably not... but maybe') there might be some possibility. You might also try to get her to see some of the negative effects this material progress is having on China (like destroying the environment, huge social inequities, breakdown of culture, etc)

If she feels linked to Taoist belief at all, you might try sharing some of Sachiko Murata's writings in which she compares Islam and Taoism, such as The Tao of Islam. (That one's rather difficult to read; there are some articles online which might be easier; you could google Sachiko Murata) You might focus on the spiritual aspect of the human being and her beliefs in that as well as regarding the goal of life.

Thanks for an insightful reply. She agrees as to China's problems, but tends to trust the regime too impicitly. Though she DOES concur with my insistence that what we see now is a revival of neo-Confucianism, one tied to technology.

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If she has the patience for it, you might also share this book with her (it is by Sachiko Murata and her husband William Chittick). It is one of the better "Introduction to Islam" books that I've seen that attempts to describe the essence of Islamic belief (which, in my opinion, is something most books fail to do). For that matter, it's worth reading for anyone.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Vision-Islam-Sachiko-Murata/dp/1845113209

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I reverted to Islam four years ago. My wife has not. She comes from a culture not much reached by the religions of the Book. And she grew up under a regime that practiced a very harsh form of Communism. She insists Islam is "right for" me, not her. (It does not seem to help to point out that "right for" is a contradiction. An idea is either right or it is not.) Yet she fears death to an unhealthy degree---the sort of fear only the secularist knows. Any suggestions? This bothers me more and more.

You reverted to Islam four years ago ? So did I. ;)

I was married with a christian girl , few years ago because I was not able to find a muslim wife:

I was very poor without house, car , job and no one want to marry me ;) So I found out this girl and I contract marriage with her. ^_^

Time passed and we have now two children. We have found something like commitment: I mean I don't annoy her with my

religion and in the other hand she annoy me with nothing.

Actually , I really don't want her to be a muslim... I must confess!!!!

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Purely as a layperson, I'd imagine that there are two aspects to religion. There's the believing in fairy stories and then there's what you *do* bit.

How about starting with the latter?

So as a Shia Muslim you may believe in things regarding modesty/dress, abstinence from certain behaviours etc. Even if she does not convert in the short term, would it not be possible to ask if she's willing to make these changes? Because you feel more comfortable with them.

We're not talking hijab, but you could argue that longer skirts for example are more respectable, purely on secular grounds. There are lots of things here, and you could work towards gradual change. Once she accepts the logic behind the behaviour change and sees the benefits (drunkeness becomes far more offensive a sight when you do not drink yourself), you may find that the faith becomes more attractive.

HTH

I think this is the best advice that has been given so far. It is also backed by modern research into how the brain functions. Beliefs and actions strengthen and mutually reinforce each other. So if she begins acting like a muslima, she may begin to believe in it. At her age(mid-forties), don't expect big changes over night and it is a huge task for anyone at that age to make significant changes to their beliefs. Also, from my exposure to people who lived in China and E. Europe under communist rule, they really 'did a number' (to use an American expression) on them. They were thoroughly brainwashed from a very young age and no opposing viewpoints were allowed of considered. Even if she was 20 years younger, that would be a difficult thing to deal with. If she begins moving in the direction of belief in Islam, it may take her another 40 years to complete the transition from her

Start with small steps. Like the br said, if she doesn't dress properly from the Islamic definition, try to encourage her to dress modestly and you could make the argument on secular grounds (it is safer, it forces other people to look at you in a more respectful way, etc). If she drinks alcohol, try to discourage her from drinking, etc. If she has an atom's weight of sincerity in her heart to follow truth, Allah(s.w.a) will guide her thru you and she will begin to make these changes. Again, this is a process and it doesn't happen overnight so you must be very patient with her and figure that you are going to have good and bad days in regards to this change.

Also, if you have a good and thorough knowledge of Arabic and Chinese, and the time and energy to do it, I can't tell you how valuble it would be for you to start on a modern translation of the Quran into Chinese (I am assuming Mandarin). The thawab(reward from Allah(s.w.a) for this is unimaginable, if the translation is true and correct.

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Start with small steps. Like the br said, if she doesn't dress properly from the Islamic definition, try to encourage her to dress modestly and you could make the argument on secular grounds (it is safer, it forces other people to look at you in a more respectful way, etc). If she drinks alcohol, try to discourage her from drinking, etc. If she has an atom's weight of sincerity in her heart to follow truth, Allah(s.w.a) will guide her thru you and she will begin to make these changes. Again, this is a process and it doesn't happen overnight so you must be very patient with her and figure that you are going to have good and bad days in regards to this change.

Salaam

I have to say, when I read that post, I was uncomfortable with skirt length being the #1 issue of discussion. The basis of Islam is belief in Allah - and then, secondarily, good character and social interactions, and avoiding the major sins. As an example, tawhid was the first thing mandated in the prophetic mission, and hijab came much later. I am uncomfortable with the thought that this would send the message that the most important thing in Islam is a lady's style of clothing (or else, that it is ok to follow the outer of the shariah even if a person does not believe).

I think Islam loses a lot of 'converts' because of this emphasis on the material at the expense of the spiritual. (Of course both are important, but without the spiritual, the material is meaningless) The most important thing in Islam is God, and if a person does everything else 'Islamically' but does not believe in God, the other actions are not useful.

It goes without saying that this also plays on a lot of stereotypes of Muslims as being overly focused on female dress, etc

That being said, if she has some traditional Chinese values, it might be possible to draw on some similarities. Modesty in clothing is also a traditional Chinese value, as are famliy values, and probably other values and ideas as well.

But if they are married and in their 40's or 50's, then this probably isn't the #1 issue of concern anyway

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Salaam

I have to say, when I read that post, I was uncomfortable with skirt length being the #1 issue of discussion. The basis of Islam is belief in Allah - and then, secondarily, good character and social interactions, and avoiding the major sins. As an example, tawhid was the first thing mandated in the prophetic mission, and hijab came much later. I am uncomfortable with the thought that this would send the message that the most important thing in Islam is a lady's style of clothing (or else, that it is ok to follow the outer of the shariah even if a person does not believe).

I think Islam loses a lot of 'converts' because of this emphasis on the material at the expense of the spiritual. (Of course both are important, but without the spiritual, the material is meaningless) The most important thing in Islam is God, and if a person does everything else 'Islamically' but does not believe in God, the other actions are not useful.

It goes without saying that this also plays on a lot of stereotypes of Muslims as being overly focused on female dress, etc

That being said, if she has some traditional Chinese values, it might be possible to draw on some similarities. Modesty in clothing is also a traditional Chinese value, as are famliy values, and probably other values and ideas as well.

But if they are married and in their 40's or 50's, then this probably isn't the #1 issue of concern anyway

Salams,

OK. I understand what you are saying. I didn't mean to imply that this was the most important issue. I agree that belief in Tauhid is much,much more important.

The first thing that came to my mind as a practical step that is fairly easy to do and show sincere intent is the issue of modesty in dress.

There are a number of other things that could substitute as a practical first step, but since I don't know much about this br's life or his wife, I picked the one that

was most likely to apply to them. He could also start with taking her to Ziyarat to Najaf or Karbala or Mashad or encouraging her to give to charity, but I was not sure if either of these was possible and/or applied to them given their situation.

Again, I agree with you that it is not the most important thing that defines someones belief in Islam, but you have to start somewhere

Edited by Abu Hadi
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Salaam

I have to say, when I read that post, I was uncomfortable with skirt length being the #1 issue of discussion. The basis of Islam is belief in Allah - and then, secondarily, good character and social interactions, and avoiding the major sins. As an example, tawhid was the first thing mandated in the prophetic mission, and hijab came much later. I am uncomfortable with the thought that this would send the message that the most important thing in Islam is a lady's style of clothing (or else, that it is ok to follow the outer of the shariah even if a person does not believe).

I think Islam loses a lot of 'converts' because of this emphasis on the material at the expense of the spiritual. (Of course both are important, but without the spiritual, the material is meaningless) The most important thing in Islam is God, and if a person does everything else 'Islamically' but does not believe in God, the other actions are not useful.

It goes without saying that this also plays on a lot of stereotypes of Muslims as being overly focused on female dress, etc

That being said, if she has some traditional Chinese values, it might be possible to draw on some similarities. Modesty in clothing is also a traditional Chinese value, as are famliy values, and probably other values and ideas as well.

But if they are married and in their 40's or 50's, then this probably isn't the #1 issue of concern anyway

Bingo +1

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In my wife's case, the problem is not helped by the fact that the only Chinese translations of the Quran available are those dating back to the Song Dynasty. The language is very archaic and the meaning often opaque. (This lets the regime have its cake and eat it too. Religion is "free." But the available texts are a barrier to understanding.) I'm thinking of translating at least the shorter Surahs into modern Chinese as a help to her.

(salam)

This is actually a brilliant....brilliant idea. This is going to be very helpful. I agree you should start with small surah. The Quran also have some very nice verses about ethics and morals. BTW, I would also suggest reading the nahjul balagha. You may explain general theme of the sermons and then go in depth.

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