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shiasoldier786

Wali Amr Al-muslimeen: Poll

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"In the final analysis, I would say that one may do taqlid of any of the marãji'-e taqlid in all matters; but since they are silent or have no opinion on political issues and on issues related to the Islamic Movement world-wide, one should follow the Wali-e faqih of Iran who is best suited to guide on such issues.

Was-salaam."

Sayyid M. Rizvi

http://www.islamic-laws.org/articles/waliefaqih.htm

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Kufi hain na shami hain

ham rahbar k hami hain

Edited by khuram

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Polls are meant for opinions. This isn't an opinion. This is similar to asking if one takes the Imam Mahdi (as) as their Imam, since Rahbar is his deputy.

We don't care how many people reject the Wilayat of the Imams by rejecting their deputy.

Thanks for your non-opinion with respect to the matter. The likes of you do a good job at exposing yourself.

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Thanks for your non-opinion with respect to the matter. The likes of you do a good job at exposing yourself.

Exposing themselves to what?

That we accept him as Wali Amr Al Muslimeen? We don´t need to expose it, we are telling you that we do.

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Exposing themselves to what?

That we accept him as Wali Amr Al Muslimeen? We don´t need to expose it, we are telling you that we do.

SABZIs dont have the ability to understand

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Edited by khuram

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not in a million years.

surely one of the main criteria for the "wali e amr" is that he must be JUST?

keeping people under house arrest for political reasons such as ayatollah montazeri is not just, nor is it justifyable...unless you can show me any imams that kept their opponents under house arrest? oh wait. you cant,

so where are we left?

1) the wali e amr must always be just

2) ayatollah khamenei is not just

3) therefore, no matter how many people "believe" him to be, that does not change the reality of the fact that he is nothing of the sort.

1 + 2 = 3

oh yeah, and enough with the communist-style videos, comrade.

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Guest Zahratul_Islam

^ House arrest is a legitimate punishment in Islam. Look it up...

No Imams other than Imam Ali (as) - only 3-4 years - and Imam Hasan (as) - only 6 or so months - were given their right to rule, so how could the other Imams punish others when they weren't given their right to rule?

Imam Ali (as) chopped fingers off, and many other Islamic punishments which you consider brutal.

I can't imagine the horrible names you would call Amirul Momineen (as) during his rule. AstaghfarAllah.

Hasan Sajjad

President

There is this really obvious point that your simple mind can't seem to grasp- Imam Ali (as) was just and infallible. His punishments were justified because he was far more insightful/fair than the political/spiritual leaders we have today (especially those who wear the corrupt hat of politicians and the turban of a scholar).

So no, he wouldn't call Amirul Momineen any "horrible name" because he finds your analogy insulting and disrespectful as a Shia. You can worship Khamenei all you like, but refrain from analogies that compare his petty politics to the actions of my Imam.

Edit: What does them being given their right to rule have to do with anything? Had they been given the right to rule.. you think they would have been silencing opposition? You can't possibly miss the irony.

Edited by Zahratul_Islam

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Guest Zahratul_Islam

^ I wonder if you people would accept Imam Ali (as) as infallible like you claim to today.

According to you, we should all just sit and twiddle our thumbs like a bunch of idiots and "wait" for our Imam. Not realizing it is our Imam who is waiting for us.

People like you just want to hold on to your precious money and pretend you are waiting for the Awaited (as), while instead you are delaying his (as) return.

Prophet Muhammad (saw) said "The scholars are the inheritors of the ambiya"

Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) made the scholars rulers over us.

I can give you many more hadith but as the Quran says:

[2:17] Their parable is like the parable of one who kindled a fire but when it had illumined all around him, Allah took away their light, and left them in utter darkness-- they do not see.

[2:18] Deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they will not turn back.

http://www.iranchamber.com/personalities/ashariati/works/red_black_shiism.php

Hasan Sajjad

President

*sigh*

I just remembered how profoundly dumb you are.. many apologies for attempting to take you seriously

Edited by Zahratul_Islam

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I have voted 'no' although I follow Mr. Khamenai and have his "tauzeeh" with me for guidance. Because in truth the words "wali" and "amr" are not applicable to him or his likes since we all, and even they, make mistakes. So it wouldn't be entirely correct ultimately to give any such titles to another man except the awaited Imam (as) even if Mr. Khamenai's advice is among the most worthy and he should be fully respected.

Edited by Ibrahim Nakhaee

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See, the other maraja DO have political views, and they DO issue political statements. Sayyed Sistani on Iraq is an example. What if Iraq adopted the system of Wilayatul Faqih, who would be the leader in Iraq? Sayyed Khamenei or someone ONLY Iraqis elect, just like ONLY Iranians elect Sayyed Khamenei? If it's another marja, then what happens if he and Sayyed Khamenei have political disagreements? If they're both representatives of the Imam, and they hold political office and DISAGREE on political issues, then at least one representative has to be wrong, doesn't he? A representative of the Imam cannot afford to make a wrong decision if he holds political office. If Sayyed Khamenei becomes the leader in Iraq, then voting cannot be limited to Iranians. If suffrage extends to Iraqis as well, then the leader of the Muslims will be voted in because of their nationality. Yes, religion should be more important than nationalism. Yes, religion should have a part to play in politics, BUT it doesn't. Simple as that.

I accept Sayyed Khamenei as my religious leader, and I will follow him on whatever he says. I believe it's my religious duty. However, firstly, I don't understand how he can be considered to be the leader of the Muslims if only Iranians are allowed to vote him in. Secondly, the political influence he has on non-Iranians is limited. The political statements he makes directly concern Muslims in Iran, not the world. The political statements he makes which concern the global Muslim ummah are similar to the ones made by other Maraja. Boycott Israel. Follow the law of the land unless it contradicts Islamic law. These things are said by ALL the maraja. I'm just asking with the aim to understand: how is Sayyed Khamenei the Leader of the Muslims of the world?

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Indian Scholar Allama Aqeel ul gharavi praises Ayatullah Khamenie

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

I heard all his majalises this ashra as he was making a lot of noise in Karachi. It was quite refreshing as I had been used to hearing out intense tabarra mongers in Irfan haider etc. At least Allama Aqeel was willing to approach certain topics with a rational mindset. In any case, the scholarly body present within the subcontinent and especially India was a source of pride for shia muslims in our part of the world. No where else in the muslim world existed a scholarly body comprising of both shia and sunni scholars working together with a progressive mindset encompassing of the wisdom around them yet still managing to be sufficiently independent and self sustaining. There is no doubt in my mind that this recent shift in focus towards Iran instead by our bodies to seek out blind guidance with respects to local religious and importantly political affairs has been a backwards step and incredibly disheartening.

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Exposing themselves to what?

That we accept him as Wali Amr Al Muslimeen? We don´t need to expose it, we are telling you that we do.

Good for you and all those who accept him as Wali amr Muslimeen. Not my business. But saying that accepting Khamenei as Wali Amr Muslimeen-i-jehan is not a matter of opinion [or a matter of viewpoint or of different theological interpretation] is practically equating his status and office to that of the infallible Imam whose acceptance is mandatory on all believers. The latter is not a matter of opinion. The former is akin to robbing me of my opinion. So those who think like that expose themselves as to where they are coming from. These Shia Taliban with an Amir al-momineen in all but name.

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Banning the use of Israeli products isn't political, it is against Fiqh to support those at war with Islam.

Anything about Israel is wholly political from A to Z. It has nothing to do with fiqh whatsoever. If you invoke the rule of not helping or siding with the oppressor, then it's a mere interpretation which can be extended to anything anywhere in the world.

You are turning this into a nationalism issue, who cares who decides as long as it is the mujtahideen who decide. If you believe our ulema are our guides and leaders, then I don't see why it matters where our ulema are from, the majority are from Iran. And that shouldn't matter to us.
There is no WF of Iraq/Iran/Lebanon, etc etc. The WF is of the Muslim Ummah. The mujtahideen amongst us decide who that is.

He is asking about the jurisdiction of the selected [not elected] Wali al-faqih both in matters political and religious, since for you the two are one and the same. He is also asking about the religious legitimacy of the conflicting decrees/viewpoints/policies etc of two or more selected WFs [although there can't be two in theory as per the original doctrine] who happen to be the leaders of geographic entities separated by international borders. These are practical issues which would come up if, say, Seestani is to assume the role of WF in Iraq. This has nothing to do with nationalism.

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Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said "The scholars are the inheritors of the ambiya"

Imam Jafar Sadiq (as) made the scholars rulers over us.

Then Seyyed Fadhlallah, may God forgive me, is also an inheritor of ambiya? A scholar who continuously foils all that we Shia stand for, for his personal agenda of erasing the difference between us and the Neherwanis? A scholar who says we can eat non-scaled fish and anything that comes out of the sea? Even if non-Shias take that hadith then a lot of their scholars will be found guilty of Satanic deeds and Fadhlallah happens to accomodate them all. How then can these people be the inheritors of prophets only by devoting some years studying religion? Satan studied religion and did more worship than any of these and his incapability in the face of so much knowledge destroyed him in the end as it imbalanced him and he got the impression that he was superior. Now look at these scholars, what they wear and what they do. Prophets (as) and Imams (as) and all saints (ra) had no "riya", they payed little attention to their worldly appearance but rather their inner selves and to God's pleasure. They wore patched clothes and were always broke. They were practical people, they never stood by and ignored other human beings let alone muslim nations. I sent e-mails to the Rahbar concerning the situation of Shia in Pakistan and he didn't even reply. I know many scholars, both Shia and non-Shia. I know full well how they are on the "mimber" (preacher's seat) in front of people and then how they are in day to day life. I always see a vast difference. The saints (ra) these days do not even dare sit on the mimber of the Prophet (pbuh) because they think themselves unworthy. They avoid attention. They guide you if you ask them. They don't wear lots of long, fancy and out of fashion middle eastern clothes or black turbans over their heads to stand out. But they have "amr", i.e., what they say is true or becomes true, they are pious to the letter and the true inheritors in both actions and words.

Seriously, don't get carried away following the worldly scholarly figures blindly after giving them such titles. Sure they give good lectures and sure they have a lot more knowledge and some can be convincing enough. We should follow their advice in the matters of religion if we find no better. But they are definitely not Islamic leaders. They're simply not indoctrinated for that and their inability in such weighty matters should be enough evidence for all. Imam Khomeini (ra) was an exception though and a very special person even if he too made a mistake or two from time to time. But unfortunately I don't see anyone comparable to him today, leave alone the immaculate prophets, Imams and saints of God.

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There are people over here who are muqallideen of Sayyed Fadlallah, and whatever issues you have with him you keep to yourself otherwise your words will cause this whole thread to be hijacked if you don't edit them.

Then Seyyed Fadhlallah, may God forgive me, is also an inheritor of ambiya? A scholar who continuously foils all that we Shia stand for, for his personal agenda of erasing the difference between us and the Neherwanis? A scholar who says we can eat non-scaled fish and anything that comes out of the sea? Even if non-Shias take that hadith then a lot of their scholars will be found guilty of Satanic deeds and Fadhlallah happens to accomodate them all. How then can these people be the inheritors of prophets only by devoting some years studying religion? Satan studied religion and did more worship than any of these and his incapability in the face of so much knowledge destroyed him in the end as it imbalanced him and he got the impression that he was superior. Now look at these scholars, what they wear and what they do. Prophets (as) and Imams (as) and all saints (ra) had no "riya", they payed little attention to their worldly appearance but rather their inner selves and to God's pleasure. They wore patched clothes and were always broke. They were practical people, they never stood by and ignored other human beings let alone muslim nations. I sent e-mails to the Rahbar concerning the situation of Shia in Pakistan and he didn't even reply. I know many scholars, both Shia and non-Shia. I know full well how they are on the "mimber" (preacher's seat) in front of people and then how they are in day to day life. I always see a vast difference. The saints (ra) these days do not even dare sit on the mimber of the Prophet (pbuh) because they think themselves unworthy. They avoid attention. They guide you if you ask them. They don't wear lots of long, fancy and out of fashion middle eastern clothes or black turbans over their heads to stand out. But they have "amr", i.e., what they say is true or becomes true, they are pious to the letter and the true inheritors in both actions and words.

Seriously, don't get carried away following the worldly scholarly figures blindly after giving them such titles. Sure they give good lectures and sure they have a lot more knowledge and some can be convincing enough. We should follow their advice in the matters of religion if we find no better. But they are definitely not Islamic leaders. They're simply not indoctrinated for that and their inability in such weighty matters should be enough evidence for all. Imam Khomeini (ra) was an exception though and a very special person even if he too made a mistake or two from time to time. But unfortunately I don't see anyone comparable to him today, leave alone the immaculate prophets, Imams and saints of God.

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^^ Post #15

^ House arrest is a legitimate punishment in Islam. Look it up...

No Imams other than Imam Ali (as) - only 3-4 years - and Imam Hasan (as) - only 6 or so months - were given their right to rule, so how could the other Imams punish others when they weren't given their right to rule?

Imam Ali (as) chopped fingers off, and many other Islamic punishments which you consider brutal.

I can't imagine the horrible names you would call Amirul Momineen (as) during his rule. AstaghfarAllah.

Hasan Sajjad

President

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I'm sorry but I never edit my posts myself. If someone is ignorant enough to think that critcizing a scholar is blasphemy then so be it. I'm a free man and have my opinions and am in the habit of striking down a statue regardless of how many worship it out of ignorance. Like this guy for example who thinks that scholars are substitutes of Imams (as):

I can't imagine the horrible names you would call Amirul Momineen (as) during his rule.

What sad ignorance is this. Ali's (as) pair of worn old shoes are holier than the caliphate over muslims, he said it himself to Abdallah ibn Abbas(ra), and its because the "caliphate" has been used by unclean people while Ali's (as) shoes have been his own through and through and always aided him in the pursuit of finding God's pleasure and nothing else. Where does the modern day mullah stand then?

All I can see is that such exaggerated reverence would only ensure the dominion of the mullah over the populace. So when the Imam (as) returns and your scholar fails to identify him after you spend weeks asking the marja, where would you be then? Don't get me wrong. Scholars have a respectable place in Islam indeed but you guys are going too far. When Khomeini was no more, someone took his place. When Khamenai is no more, someone will take his place. And regardless of their true inner identities, since most people can not see such things, the law ensures that the populace will follow whoever takes their place, that is the mullah next in line. I'm all for taking guidance from them in Islamic matters but their knowledge is limited and incomparable to the knowledge of Imams (as) and the holy Prophet (pbuh). Only Imams and Saints are the inheritors of ambiya, not the mullah. And again, Khomeini was a special case. Can't you see for yourselves? How easily can you be mistaken by someone's apparel and speech. Islam is rather about right actions, not words, beards, turbans and flowing robes. I follow Khamenai's religious advice myself, like I said, but I don't go so far and am astonished to see how weak and dependant people have become intellectually.

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I'm all for taking guidance from them in Islamic matters but their knowledge is limited and incomparable to the knowledge of Imams (as) and the holy Prophet (pbuh).

I agree.. no doubt about that. But we don't have direct access to Holy Imam's and Prophet now.. and it's logical to go to those who are the most knowledgable about the affairs of Imam's and Prophet.. i hope you would agree.. for you it may be Saints (i don't know your definition of Saints so plz explain).. for me it is pious scholars who are aware of some Uloom of Mohammad (as) wa Aaale Mohammad (as)... and who try their best to lead our communities on basis of that Ilm..

Only Imams and Saints are the inheritors of ambiya, not the mullah.

What do you mean by Saint's.. are they equal to Imam's in any respect ?.. And is there any evidence that led you to deduce that Saints are inheritors of Ambiya (just like Imam's) ??

And again, Khomeini was a special case. Can't you see for yourselves?

What was it that made Imam Khomeini special than other's?.. Were people not put in house arrest during his time.. were people not executed during his time ?.. was not same Agha e Montazeri under house arrest during his time.. wasn't Shariatmadari defrocked during his time..

Are we gradually sliding into habit of basing our opinions on basis of our preference rather than principles.. ??. I am not saying that no unjust and unworthy person can never assume the leadership of this Ummah in absence of Imam Mahdi(as).. but what i am saying is that when vast and huge majority of our pious and knowledgable scholars (and this includes Maraje from out of Iran too) have accepted the leadership and have not castigated Ayat. Khamenei for present unrest in Iran.. do we think we are more aware of the situation than them ??..

If vast majority of ulema were to say that this system does not hold any good for Ummah.. then i am ready to take it as evidence that it has no legitimacy left..

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[

In any case there are numerous hadith that speak about arresting in general (house or prison) and especially house arrests. I am sure will be able to find them with a quick search of the religious texts, I am surprised we are even discussing whether "house arrests" in itself is halal.

Thats so true.. unfortunately we are head deep in murky concept of Justice as promoted by the new world.. And irony is that those who themselves promote new principles of Justice do not follow it.. but only use it as a tool to discredit others who do not follow the neo Justice rules..

Let me ask my friends how many JUSTICE and RIGHTS friendly countries have political prisoners languishing in their jails.. how many of such nations have detention/espionage laws which give uncontrollable power to agencies.. and how many of you so seemingly JUST and RIGHTS ACTIVISTS have ever written or raised your voice against it ??..

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erm, are we reading the same ayats?

[4:15] And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

tafsir?

pooya/ali:

Fahisha in its general significance is "an excess, an enormity, anything exceeding the bounds of rectitude", but when particularised, signifies "adultery or fornication", and, in this context, evidently means an act of adultery.

The evidence in the case of adultery must be, according to the law of Islam, ocular, not hearsay, conjectural or circumstantial. Every possible safeguard is taken against hasty and unfounded accusations. When four men testify that they saw with their eyes the actual carnal conjunction, punishments mentioned in this verse, can be inflicted.

For "or Allah provides some other way for them" (through His Prophet) refer to fiqh.

was ayatollah montazeri arrested and put under house arrest for adultery?

im sorry, its my fault for assuming you knew i was quite obviously talking about POLITICAL HOUSE ARREST, considering thats what i am talking about, and thats what i asked, and thats why i mentioned ayatollah montazeri, and thats what this threads about. so its easy to see why you avoided the question completely. you snake. i noticed you pro khameneis do that a lot when asked with simple questions

[5:33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

[shakir 5:34] Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Those who wage war against Allah and His prophet, kill the believers and plunder their property shall be disgraced in this world, and for them is a dreadful doom in the hereafter.

Refer to the commentary of al Baqarah: 48, 97 and 98 and the preceding verse to know how the so-called followers of the Holy Prophet waged war against the holy house of the Holy Prophet and committed heinous crimes while carrying out their ugly plan to eliminate them for ever. No doubt they have been disgraced in this world (all the sincere believers curse and condemn them), and they shall be severely punished on the day of judgement .

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Waging war against Allah and His prophet means hostility against His chosen representatives; or deviation from His laws by overstepping the boundaries laid down by Him; or letting loose a reign of terror to persecute and frighten innocent people in order to deprive them of their rights; or attempts to undermine the cause of Islam and the overall interests of the Muslims; or activities to enslave, exploit and destroy human beings.

Allah forgives only those who turn repentant to Him before they are proved guilty of the crime.

so ayatollah montazeri was guilty of that, was he?

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Let me try to explain to you in very simple terms why Aghe Montazari was put under house arrest...

He was the deputy leader of the nation.. he was supposed to be leading the whole nation after Imam Khomenei.. he was a very well known scholar and had wide influence.. he was supposed to show political maturity for the key role he was being groomed for.. he was not able to maintain the dignity of his office and his official position was compromised (thats what the charges were against him when he was removed as Deputy leader) putting issues critical to nation at risk.. he was removed from office and put under house arrest so that his movement could be limited for a specific period.. he was monitored and restricted so that the situation could be explained to the people in a better fashion and undue unrest in the society could be avoided.. so that he could be neutralized after all his powers of deputy leader against any attempts to destabilize the system

Later after all this happened and over the years.. a lot of pro system people moved away from him... and lot of reformists and anti establishment started moving towards him.. he became a important figure in their struggle and they used his personality to further their objectives.. he was again beginning to be a focal point for anti system and anti national activities.. authorities decided to limit his movements so that this danger is contained and society is not subjected to undue unrest...

I think there was not any demon that a lot of people see in the house arrest of Aghae Montazeri.. it was the need of the time to preserve the harmony and it was not something that can only be termed as illegitimate..

Disclaimer - Thats my understanding of the situation concerning house arrests of Aghae Montazeri..

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*sigh*

I just remembered how profoundly dumb you are.. many apologies for attempting to take you seriously

Came up short huh? Don´t worry, you might not take him seriously, but noone takes non usoolis seriously.

So jabber all you want wondergirl, see how long you have too dust your front door in anticipation before Imam Mahdi comes.

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erm, are we reading the same ayats?

[4:15] And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

tafsir?

pooya/ali:

was ayatollah montazeri arrested and put under house arrest for adultery?

im sorry, its my fault for assuming you knew i was quite obviously talking about POLITICAL HOUSE ARREST, considering thats what i am talking about, and thats what i asked, and thats why i mentioned ayatollah montazeri, and thats what this threads about. so its easy to see why you avoided the question completely. you snake. i noticed you pro khameneis do that a lot when asked with simple questions

[5:33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

[shakir 5:34] Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

so ayatollah montazeri was guilty of that, was he?

Google mehdi hashemi, and take a look at Imam Khomeinis letter. Protecting a murderer and a traitor in islam is as bad if not worse than murder itself, specially if you are a scholar.

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noone takes non usoolis seriously.

So jabber all you want wondergirl, see how long you have too dust your front door in anticipation before Imam Mahdi comes.

Wow....I haven't had the fortune in the past of glancing over your postings. After your post above, I'd say its a good thing that sometimes first impressions are last ones. Thank you for alerting the sane on this forum of your profound levels of ignorance. I am sure the Mahdi would indeed be very proud of this most generous and selfless undertaking of yours.

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