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In the Name of God بسم الله

Matam

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What is the history of Matam? Ive heard it was started by Mukhtar and was permitted by Imam Sajjad(as) and from others I've heard it was done by Imam Sajjad(as) himself.

Ayatollah Khamenei says its not ok, from what I've heard. But I dont follow him. But I heard from people that Ayatollah Sistani was of the opinion that it was favorable but according to a Q&A on his website about Azadari it says;

"Question: I have a question about matam (Azadari) and the manner our people are holding Muharram rituals.

Answer: It is not appropriate of the mourners to violate the commemoration method received by the righteous predecessors (Salaf-e Saleh) in mourning the martyrdom of the Lord of Martyrs, Imam Husain (a.s.)."

Which seems to be a vague answer, did he change his opinion or something? What exactly is the proper commemoration method?

So, is Zanjeer Zani & Qama Zani permissble or not? Since here in Pakistan its common practice among us.( And people dont seem to care what anyone says)

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What is the history of Matam? Ive heard it was started by Mukhtar and was permitted by Imam Sajjad(as) and from others I've heard it was done by Imam Sajjad(as) himself.

Ayatollah Khamenei says its not ok, from what I've heard. But I dont follow him. But I heard from people that Ayatollah Sistani was of the opinion that it was favorable but according to a Q&A on his website about Azadari it says;

"Question: I have a question about matam (Azadari) and the manner our people are holding Muharram rituals.

Answer: It is not appropriate of the mourners to violate the commemoration method received by the righteous predecessors (Salaf-e Saleh) in mourning the martyrdom of the Lord of Martyrs, Imam Husain (a.s.)."

Which seems to be a vague answer, did he change his opinion or something? What exactly is the proper commemoration method?

So, is Zanjeer Zani & Qama Zani permissble or not? Since here in Pakistan its common practice among us.( And people dont seem to care what anyone says)

I was wondering where all the Zanjeer-Zani posts went to this Moharram . Just two this year.

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What is the history of Matam? Ive heard it was started by Mukhtar and was permitted by Imam Sajjad(as) and from others I've heard it was done by Imam Sajjad(as) himself.

Ayatollah Khamenei says its not ok, from what I've heard. But I dont follow him. But I heard from people that Ayatollah Sistani was of the opinion that it was favorable but according to a Q&A on his website about Azadari it says;

"Question: I have a question about matam (Azadari) and the manner our people are holding Muharram rituals.

Answer: It is not appropriate of the mourners to violate the commemoration method received by the righteous predecessors (Salaf-e Saleh) in mourning the martyrdom of the Lord of Martyrs, Imam Husain (a.s.)."

Which seems to be a vague answer, did he change his opinion or something? What exactly is the proper commemoration method?

So, is Zanjeer Zani & Qama Zani permissble or not? Since here in Pakistan its common practice among us.( And people dont seem to care what anyone says)

Ya Ali(as) Madad

By what you have posted it seems that on one hand you have a reference stating that Imam Sajjad(as) permitted it and also did it, and then on the other hand you are stating that an Ayatollah has deemed for it to be wrong.

Logically looking at it, as a shia, one would like to go with the reference which states that it was permitted by our Imam Sajjad(as). Why would one want to lead their actions according to some regular human compared to our Imam Sajjad(as), who is indeed infallible.

But another example would be that of Bibi Zainab(sa) as well, when she(sa) struck her head against the wooden saddle upon seeing the head of Imam Hussain(as) in the presence of Imam Sajjad(as).

Other famous examples which I’m sure that you’ve heard of would be how Hazrat Owais Karni(ra) broke all his teeth in love of our Holy Prophet(as) at the time when Ohad took place.

These examples in history are there for a reason. To build a solid building, one has to lay out the blocks first. The blocks are there for a reason, to support the building. Same thing with Zanjeer or Qama. The examples in history are there for a reason, to give us support that we can fall back on. If someone doesn’t want to do Zanjeer or Qama, then that’s their own personal choice.

One can debate with reason whether anything regarding religion is permitted in the Holy Quran or in the practice of the Holy Prophet(as) and the Holy Infallibles(as). Seeing that in the life time of the Holy Prophet(as) he did not condemn the act of Hazrat Owais(ra), it is proven that it’s not a haram act, as the Prophet(as) said he(Hazrat Owais Karni(ra)) is one of our true followers and God and I love him. Also seeing that in the life time of our Imam Sajjad(as), when Bibi(sa) struck her head, the Imam(as) did not say anything against it.

And for the people who are giving these fatwas out restricting Azadari, one should ask them, are they claiming to be Prophets? Or Imams sent by God? If they claim that, one should critically analyze their claim, then listen to them. Not just blindly follow without any research or reasoning.

Now let’s jot this down for beginners.

A.)God sealed the Prophethood by sending our Holy Prophet Mohammed(as).

B.)God has also already sent 12 infallible Imams

So now if one isn‘t option A nor option B, then as a Shia one isn’t obliged to follow the certain rulings of a regular human being. As humans we’re prone to making mistakes/sins. It’s like people turn a blind eye when it comes to Ayatollahs. Yes, they’ve spent their lives studying religion, but they’re still human.

Human= Imperfect.

And if the concerns are from a non-shia regarding the matter of Zanjeer or Qama, then it’s not of importance to me to explain to you, as your belief is not the same as mine when it comes to Imamate. So your religion to you, and my religion to me.

Maula(as) Waris.

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What is the history of Matam? Ive heard it was started by Mukhtar and was permitted by Imam Sajjad(as) and from others I've heard it was done by Imam Sajjad(as) himself.

Ayatollah Khamenei says its not ok, from what I've heard. But I dont follow him. But I heard from people that Ayatollah Sistani was of the opinion that it was favorable but according to a Q&A on his website about Azadari it says;

"Question: I have a question about matam (Azadari) and the manner our people are holding Muharram rituals.

Answer: It is not appropriate of the mourners to violate the commemoration method received by the righteous predecessors (Salaf-e Saleh) in mourning the martyrdom of the Lord of Martyrs, Imam Husain (a.s.)."

Which seems to be a vague answer, did he change his opinion or something? What exactly is the proper commemoration method?

So, is Zanjeer Zani & Qama Zani permissble or not? Since here in Pakistan its common practice among us.( And people dont seem to care what anyone says)

(salam)

I've heard that Ayatollah Khamanei doesn't allow azadari either, apparently it's because he says that we're not allowed to do anything that gives Islam a bad name/makes Islam look bad. But, just like you, I don't follow him, so I don't know if it's true.

Also, about Sayyed Sistani, his answers on his website are always vague. I think it's some automatic response thing... anyways, if you want a proper answer from him, you have to e-mail the question (there should be an 'Ask a Question' thing on his site. And they actually do reply, just not right away).

OKAY, time to answer your question.

Just a note, the stuff I'm gonna say is either what I heard or read. Soooo... forgive me if I give wrong info. I try to get this stuff confirmed by Sheikhs.

First of all, I don't think azadari was started by Mukhtar. I heard that when Sayyedah Zaynab (as) was at the gates of Kufa and she saw the heads of her family (as) being paraded everywhere, she was crying a lot. While she was crying, she purposely hit her head against the gate (in grief), which caused some bleeding on her forehead. THIS is when Imam Zayn al-Abideen (as) came and permitted the act of beating oneself in grief of Imam al-Hossayn (as). I remember being told that when Imam Sajjad (as) permitted the act, it was as though Allah was speaking through him (like, Allah permitted azadari through Imam Sajjad (as)). This includes the permissibility of Zanjeer matam. (Zanjeer matam = shedding your blood in grief of Imam Hossayn (as), Sayyedah Zaynab (as) cut her head when hitting her head, thus drawing blood from herself).

On a side note, azadari for Imam Hossayn (as) earns you soooo much sawab. Here's an online version of a little book I have called "A'zadari - 40 Ahadith". It explains how important azadari is. (:

http://www.al-islam.org/azadari_40hadith/

Ensha'Allah, I hope I helped. (:

(wasalam)

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islam tells us if we do NOT read namaz, we will go to hell, if we do NOT fast, we will go to hell, if we do NOT pay zakat, we will go to hell, etc etc etc.

all these threats to make us do these things are the stick, jannah is the carrot.

there is no stick or carrot when it comes to azadari. this is the difference. those acts, are enforced by sharia. these acts, are nothing but love.

the fact that we have love in our hearts for the paak beings is the reward itself.

those of you who have made your maulvis into your lords will never understand that. keep chasing those fatwas guys ;)

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(bismillah)

(salam)

Sorry to go slightly off topic, but in reply to the above post I would suggest that the Aimmah (as) themselves were foremost when it came to love, and therefore the best examples in this matter and all matters. Any person can claim to have love (or anything else for that matter), but the Ma'soomeen (as) will always be higher in every attribute, including the love of their purified forefathers and grandmother.

The aim of this post is not to comment on the various forms of mourning, but rather to correct my respected brothers portrayal that suggests that those who attempt to follow the Islamic laws, as derived from the Qur'an and the Ahlulbayt (as), seem to be lacking in love of the Ahlulbayt (as).

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^^ brother theres no way possible that i could cry tears of blood similar to imam zainul abideen (as), i do what i can, as much as my heart gives me the strength to.

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^^ brother theres no way possible that i could cry tears of blood similar to imam zainul abideen (as), i do what i can, as much as my heart gives me the strength to.

(bismillah)

(salam)

Brother, I respect this and pray that Allah (swt) continues to give you strength. What I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't judge one another on how much one loves the Ahlulbayt (as). You won't see me applauding people who try to belittle those who practice the act of zanjeer/qama etc..., and at the same time I won't applaud those who do practice the acts and suggest that those who don't, don't wish to, or are trying to find out what the Islamic law says, somehow lack in their love of the Ahlulbayt (as).

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Ayyatullah khamenai does allow matam, if he dint allow it then how come his followers do it?

Sayyed Sistani only allows a woman to wear kohl eyemakeup, and only VERY lightly, but some of his followers wear every kind of cosmetic there is.

Not everyone follows rules.

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probably because some of them are not religous :/

True, true, I should've thought of that x). I'm sorry.

But, like I said before, I don't follow Khamenei, so I don't know if he doesn't allow azadari, it's only something I heard (I have a few friends who are under his taqleed, and they say that he doesn't allow it). I'll find out about it soon Ensha'Allah.

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True, true, I should've thought of that x). I'm sorry.

But, like I said before, I don't follow Khamenei, so I don't know if he doesn't allow azadari, it's only something I heard (I have a few friends who are under his taqleed, and they say that he doesn't allow it). I'll find out about it soon Ensha'Allah.

Well im 100% sure he does allow azadari.

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Well im 100% sure he does allow azadari.

he doesnt.

ayatollah Khamenei, Practical Laws of Islam chapter "Religious Events"

Q1430: What is the view on beating the drum and cymbal, blowing the trumpet, and lashing oneself with chains with blades during the processions of the commemoration of the martyrdom of Imam Husayn (a.s.)?

A: If the use of such chains leads, in the eye of the public, to defaming our school of thought or inflicting a noticeable harmful effect on the body, it is not permissible. There is no harm in using the drum, cymbal, and trumpet in the traditional way.

Q1439: Is there any basis in religion for piercing one's body with weights dangling therefrom, all in the name of commemorating the martyrdom of the Imam Husayn (a.s.)?

A: These acts, which are, inevitably, bound to portray our school of thought in a negative shade, are impermissible.

Q1449: In commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Husayn (a.s.) on the tenth of Muharram, some people hit themselves with a machete, or walk bare-footed on fire. Such actions defame Shi'ism and put it in a bad light, if not undermine it. They cause bodily and spiritual harms on these doing it as well. What is your opinion in this matter?

A: Any practice that causes bodily harm, or leads to defaming the faith, is Haram. Accordingly, the believers have to steer clear of it. There is no doubt that many of these practices besmirch the image of Ahlul Bayt's (a.s.) School of Thought which is the worst damage and loss.

Q1450: Is hitting oneself with swords Halal if it is done in secret? Or is your fatwa in this regard universal?

A: In addition to the fact that it is not held in the common view as manifestations of mourning and grief and it has no precedent at the lifetime of the Imams (a.s.) and even after that and we have not received any tradition quoted from the Infallibles (a.s.) about any support for this act, be it privately or publicly, this practice would, at the present time, give others a bad image of our school of thought. Therefore, there is no way that it can be considered permissible.

so lets get this right. you can play in a marching brass band - that obviously counts as azadari, but you cant mourn.

wow, i question the stupid people that dont follow him and his amazing logic.

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Well im 100% sure he does allow azadari.

As it is, Khamenei doesn't allow any act which causes bleeding and/or leaves wounds on the body. Included in his list of prohibited acts are zanjeer, qama, matam on fire, to walk bare-footed and bare-chested etc. But from what I have heard [not read], he does permit minimal form of azadari, that is, only beatings on chest, although I have yet to see an explicit statement endorsing said act.

It would be interesting to see if he allows crying and wailing, and to what extent. I think crying and wailing after a certain point appears very stupid and puts the religion of Ahlal bayt "in bad light".

Edited by Marbles
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By what you have posted it seems that on one hand you have a reference stating that Imam Sajjad(as) permitted it and also did it, and then on the other hand you are stating that an Ayatollah has deemed for it to be wrong.

But its not a solid reference, it is heresay. Thats the problem. I have not read this in any literature of ours yet. If any has a reference please give it. Uwais Al Karni(ra) is a solid enough justification for matam but I would just like to know exactly when our Imams encouraged us to do matam.

First of all, I don't think azadari was started by Mukhtar

That may well be the case. Like I said, I was just telling you what I have heard. I dont know for sure if Imam Sajjad(as) was the first to practice zanjeer zani or Mukhtar. And when Qama Zani first started I'd like to know either.

As for as I've read, it seem the the Imams told us to remember Karabal through Majalis and mourning, but what about Matam as we have now? I dont know.

Although I dont think Matam is a bad thing, who cares what the Sunnis think.

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As for as I've read, it seem the the Imams told us to remember Karabal through Majalis and mourning, but what about Matam as we have now? I dont know.

Hm, yeah... I guess that's, like, the general idea. Like, the main point is to remember and mourn for the tragedy of Karbala.

Edited by 3alawiyeh
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he doesnt.

ayatollah Khamenei, Practical Laws of Islam chapter "Religious Events"

so lets get this right. you can play in a marching brass band - that obviously counts as azadari, but you cant mourn.

wow, i question the stupid people that dont follow him and his amazing logic.

Where does he say that you cant mourn?

Just to add-

The marjas spend their entire lives doing research into all these issues, and if something is unislamic, they have to say so straight up. Getting emotional and say saying, but we are doing so and so for the sake of Imam Hussain (as), doesn't change what the sharia allows, and what it forbids.

ps- Im NOT talking about mouring and matam here.

Edited by shiasoldier786
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It would be interesting to see if he allows crying and wailing, and to what extent. I think crying and wailing after a certain point appears very stupid and puts the religion of Ahlal bayt "in bad light".

Ayatollah Sistani (HA) has also prohibited Zanjeer Zani if it shows the madhab of the ahlul bayt in a bad light. This however, is a completely seperate issue from mourning and wailing, and I'm certain that Ayatollah Khamenei (HA) allows mourning to any extent.

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But its not a solid reference, it is heresay. Thats the problem. I have not read this in any literature of ours yet. If any has a reference please give it. Uwais Al Karni(ra) is a solid enough justification for matam but I would just like to know exactly when our Imams encouraged us to do matam.

Ya Ali(as) Madad,

Yes, Owais Al Karna(ra) is a solid justification seeing that it was done in the time of our Holy Prophet Mohammed(as).

But here are a few other references, hope they help.

Hazrat Bilal (ra) & Matham

We read in Madarij al Nubuwah, Volume 2 page 441, whilst discussing the death of the Prophet (s):

"When the situation of the Prophet worsened, Bilal emerged beating his head and loudly wailing,'I wish my mother had not given birth to me, and that if she had I wish that I had died before this day'"

Why did Bilal fail to adopt patience, an act that the Nasibi deem compulsory? Was the Muazzin and loyal Servant of the Prophet (as) ignorant of the verses on patience? Even in this case none of the companions raised any objection at the action of Bilal. Moreover the Holy Prophet (as) was yet alive and not dead. This is the extreme extent of grief. Then how can similar action for Imam Husayn (as) be prohibited?

There is an interesting book that you should read if you have the time to expand your knowledge "The Glow of Hussainy Passion" by Abdul Haleem AlGhezzi. In there it has hadith along with tafseer.

It speaks of the extent of, crying out loud, beating of the chest and head till one dies. The hadiths are authentic and have been used by great shia scholars as well. It is best if you read the book yourself and other books that people give references from. That way you can say "Yes, I've read it myself, seen it myself.", instead of "I've heard of it". Nothing better than taking the time to do some research and then coming to a conclusion which is best, provided by proof.

Maula(as) Waris.

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